Toaster Retribution

(OB) Most Disliked Stormlight Character

Who is the most disliked?   308 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your least favorite?

    • Sadeas
      54
    • Amaram
      56
    • Moash/Vyre
      101
    • Roshone
      29
    • Elhokar
      7
    • Shallan Davar
      44
    • Other
      41
    • Lift
      19
    • Taravangian
      10
    • Adolin
      12

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255 posts in this topic

On 11/15/2019 at 2:56 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

I see your point, but I dont necessarily agree. I think female characters get branded as annoying, and men as whiny. People dont call the female cast of Wheel of Time whiny. They are annoying. Rose Tico isnt said to be whiny, but annoying. And every main male character in classic fantasy are called whiny, but not annoying. Furthermore, I would say that the most severely hated character ever is Jar Jar Binks, who is a guy. 
 

I’ll give you this: Dalinar and Adolin, especially the resolution to Sadeas murder, was kinda lame. 
 

J** J** is an abomination, not a guy. It's not fair to either gender to be compared to him. Similarly, I hate Rose for sure, but putting them in the same paragraph isn't fair. Basically what I'm saying is that the J** J**-less cut of the prequels is significantly better than the theatrical release.

 

On 11/15/2019 at 4:41 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

True, true. I am interested by the prospect of time skip as well. How many slippers will Mraize have managed to get his hands on? Has Amaram gained the post-mortem fans he deserves? How high is Nales wage working for Odium compared to what he had working for Honor? 

In reality I agree with you. I was joking. Open polls are fun for informal opinion gathering though. 

It feels like I am Anakin and Cal is the High Ground.

I feel like Cal underestimated your power. I'd try it personally. Whats the worst that can happen? 

 

Also, this post is super on topic.

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1 hour ago, Winds Alight said:

I like Jar Jar :( :lol:

o

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I put Amaram down for the poll (yep, 2 years late) because his arc in OB felt lackluster. As Toaster Retribution already pointed out, he's not a bad character. In fact, he's a good one, if not my favorite. He simply didn't get the screen time he needed to provide a satisfying ending to his arc. And since Shallan has been discussed so much recently, here are my thoughts on her as well.

I like Shallan. I may complain about her development and arc in the latter half of OB now and then, but IMO she is a great character, especially in WoR. I love her in that book. She really shines during her interactions with the Ghostbloods, which is why I'm crossing my fingers that she'll be much more involved with them in RoW. I get why people dislike her, and after Part 3 of OB (where she actually has a some great character development) I had difficulty investing in her arc, especially the ending. But I'm optimistic going forward.

As for Lift and Lopen, what can I say, I like them. I mean look at my username! I'm obviously a Wayne fan, and they share his obnoxious, stupid, and IMO hilarious qualities. I just like Brandon's sense of humor in these cases, though I will say I am definitely excited to see Lift mature in the second half of SA.

 

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25 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

I put Amaram down for the poll (yep, 2 years late) because his arc in OB felt lackluster. As Toaster Retribution already pointed out, he's not a bad character. In fact, he's a good one, if not my favorite. He simply didn't get the screen time he needed to provide a satisfying ending to his arc. And since Shallan has been discussed so much recently, here are my thoughts on her as well.

I like Shallan. I may complain about her development and arc in the latter half of OB now and then, but IMO she is a great character, especially in WoR. I love her in that book. She really shines during her interactions with the Ghostbloods, which is why I'm crossing my fingers that she'll be much more involved with them in RoW. I get why people dislike her, and after Part 3 of OB (where she actually has a some great character development) I had difficulty investing in her arc, especially the ending. But I'm optimistic going forward.

As for Lift and Lopen, what can I say, I like them. I mean look at my username! I'm obviously a Wayne fan, and they share his obnoxious, stupid, and IMO hilarious qualities. I just like Brandon's sense of humor in these cases, though I will say I am definitely excited to see Lift mature in the second half of SA.

 

I think Amaram's arc was fine. He is well written, and a good villain. And he acted exactly how I would have expected him to act up until the last. OB was pretty bloated, and I think leaving Amaram in the background, but still very important, was a good call.

I also am hoping we get some good Shallan in the OB. I really want to see her actually team up with Jasnah, like in early book 2. I also want to see her talk to Adolin, or someone, about her childhood. And actually have a conversation about it. I'm ready for her to move forward a little more than she has.

Lift and Lopen are both great. I think anyone who doesn't like them, or at least tolerate them, is taking themselves and a fantasy series with magic crab people way too seriously. I'm just hoping that we don't get an angry, bitter, broken Lift in the back half. I want her to maintain the sort of optimism that she has.

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33 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

I put Amaram down for the poll (yep, 2 years late) because his arc in OB felt lackluster. As Toaster Retribution already pointed out, he's not a bad character. In fact, he's a good one, if not my favorite. He simply didn't get the screen time he needed to provide a satisfying ending to his arc. And since Shallan has been discussed so much recently, here are my thoughts on her as well.

 

Wait, Amaram is a favorite of yours? I salute you, Mr Hat. I too have my problems with him in OB (he needed more page-time) but I wouldn’t mark it down as bad. 

 

5 minutes ago, Config2 said:

Lift and Lopen are both great. I think anyone who doesn't like them, or at least tolerate them, is taking themselves and a fantasy series with magic crab people way too seriously.

I feel like their jokes sometimes kills suspense, or comes at the expense of the story. Like Lopen randomly getting KR-powers at the end of OB and immediately start being rude to the Stormfather (who I actually think is funnier than Lopen). And Lifts interruption of Odiums and Dalinars first meeting to talk about butts was just... no. They have their moments, but Brandon could easily cut 20-30% of their comedic stuff and the books would benefit from it. I know a lot of people thinks Shallans jokes dont land, but she is comedic gold compared to Lopen and Lift in my opinion. And the funniest Stormlight character is Pattern, by far.

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6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Wait, Amaram is a favorite of yours? I salute you, Mr Hat. I too have my problems with him in OB (he needed more page-time) but I wouldn’t mark it down as bad. 

 

I feel like their jokes sometimes kills suspense, or comes at the expense of the story. Like Lopen randomly getting KR-powers at the end of OB and immediately start being rude to the Stormfather (who I actually think is funnier than Lopen). And Lifts interruption of Odiums and Dalinars first meeting to talk about butts was just... no. They have their moments, but Brandon could easily cut 20-30% of their comedic stuff and the books would benefit from it. I know a lot of people thinks Shallans jokes dont land, but she is comedic gold compared to Lopen and Lift in my opinion. And the funniest Stormlight character is Pattern, by far.

I'm on the exact opposite side of the scale here. I am always in for a crappy joke in a bad situation and Lopen and Lift are 100% my cup of tea. Lopen flipping off the Stormfather with his spren? I love that.
Lift commenting on Dalinar's butt? Majestic. (She might very well run for top 5 of my favourite SA characters.)

I will not be fighting you on the fact that "no mating" Pattern is the peak of SA humor though ;)

Edited by Winds Alight
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4 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Lift commenting on Dalinar's butt? Majestic.

I guess you could say she ... made an arse of herself B)

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3 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I guess you could say she ... made an arse of herself B)

Oh no...

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29 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I guess you could say she ... made an arse of herself B)

Truly the pinnacle of humor. I can die easily now knowing I have seen true, artistically transcendent comedy.

34 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

I'm on the exact opposite side of the scale here. I am always in for a crappy joke in a bad situation and Lopen and Lift are 100% my cup of tea. Lopen flipping off the Stormfather with his spren? I love that.
Lift commenting on Dalinar's butt? Majestic. (She might very well run for top 5 of my favourite SA characters.)

Amen brother! There’s never a bad time for potty humor. The more the better. 

Seriously though, @Toaster Retribution, I’ve never been bothered by any slackening of tension their jokes cause. I never felt that any of their jokes withdrew from suspense that much anyways. Lopens shenanigans at the end of OB occurred after the climax, so if it was going to occur anywhere, that’s the place for it. And Lifts comments to Dalinar always felt short and self contained enough that they didn’t impact suspense or the tone for very long. I get if they’re not you’re taste though.

Also, <3 Amaram. 

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1 hour ago, Config2 said:

I think Amaram's arc was fine. He is well written, and a good villain. And he acted exactly how I would have expected him to act up until the last. OB was pretty bloated, and I think leaving Amaram in the background, but still very important, was a good call.

I agree. Personally I think we saw exactly what we were supposed to see with Amaram. I really do need to get around to giving him the same treatment I did with Jasnah via going over every quote to get a clearer picture of the individual. He is narcissistic, and self serving. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I agree. Personally I think we saw exactly what we were supposed to see with Amaram. I really do need to get around to giving him the same treatment I did with Jasnah via going over every quote to get a clearer picture of the individual. He is narcissistic, and self serving. 

I would like to read that :-) though I think most peoples' objection to his arc was his sudden change from "this is all about reviving the dominance of my religion" to "my religion betrayed me, and so I joined the side of the being that killed the one I worshipped."

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23 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I would like to read that :-) though I think most peoples' objection to his arc was his sudden change from "this is all about reviving the dominance of my religion" to "my religion betrayed me, and so I joined the side of the being that killed the one I worshipped."

The big hurtle is the number of times his name comes up. Most of the time when Jasnah's name is mentioned, either with her in a scene, or from someone else's lips, the scene can tell us something about her. Most of the time Amaram's name comes up, it involves Kaladin cursing him. Now that is pertinent when examining the character, but for the most part the curses coming from Kaladin's lips are repetitious and tells us the same things. So it means wading through those scenes. 

From what I have read of the character, the reason for trying to revive the dominance of the church is in service of his own glory. He wants to be the one to bring the church back and be extolled for it. The heralds return, proving the religion correct, and now everyone cheers for Amaram, the bringer of the heralds. Forgetting he is the reason for the desolation that led to countless lost lives to begin with. Jasnah comments how Amaram would destroy his own army, just to be seen as the one saving the day. This is later validated in the Shattered Plains scene as well as the Thaylenah scene. Before they venture out, Amaram urges Dalinar to cast aside Sebarial and the other highprince, and head out to the center of the Shattered Plains with just Dalinar's own men for "glory". Dalinar admonishes Amaram for such "vainglory". They would be outnumbered and outmatched. It would be foolish not to accept the aid of the other two highprinces. In Thaylenagh, Amaram assumes Dalinar is positioning Amaram's men to learn Thaylenah's defenses to conquer them. Dalinar again admonishes him that the theylens are their allies, and the real enemy is Odium. Again, foolish not to accept aid. Both instances illustrate sacrificing lives needlessly, in order to glorify the leaders via overcoming greater obstacles, but making the casualties higher. Just like bringing about the desolations to validate the religion. 

I bring that up to explain I do not see any disconnect between reviving the religion, and then the betrayal due to his motivation. What he says seems disparate, but we can see across the books, the actual motivation is quite steady. That is why I do not believe we need more scenes from Amaram. He was narcasitic from day one to the end. If he cannot gain glory on the side of honor, then he would on the side of hatred. 

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59 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The big hurtle is the number of times his name comes up. Most of the time when Jasnah's name is mentioned, either with her in a scene, or from someone else's lips, the scene can tell us something about her. Most of the time Amaram's name comes up, it involves Kaladin cursing him. Now that is pertinent when examining the character, but for the most part the curses coming from Kaladin's lips are repetitious and tells us the same things. So it means wading through those scenes. 

From what I have read of the character, the reason for trying to revive the dominance of the church is in service of his own glory. He wants to be the one to bring the church back and be extolled for it. The heralds return, proving the religion correct, and now everyone cheers for Amaram, the bringer of the heralds. Forgetting he is the reason for the desolation that led to countless lost lives to begin with. Jasnah comments how Amaram would destroy his own army, just to be seen as the one saving the day. This is later validated in the Shattered Plains scene as well as the Thaylenah scene. Before they venture out, Amaram urges Dalinar to cast aside Sebarial and the other highprince, and head out to the center of the Shattered Plains with just Dalinar's own men for "glory". Dalinar admonishes Amaram for such "vainglory". They would be outnumbered and outmatched. It would be foolish not to accept the aid of the other two highprinces. In Thaylenagh, Amaram assumes Dalinar is positioning Amaram's men to learn Thaylenah's defenses to conquer them. Dalinar again admonishes him that the theylens are their allies, and the real enemy is Odium. Again, foolish not to accept aid. Both instances illustrate sacrificing lives needlessly, in order to glorify the leaders via overcoming greater obstacles, but making the casualties higher. Just like bringing about the desolations to validate the religion. 

I bring that up to explain I do not see any disconnect between reviving the religion, and then the betrayal due to his motivation. What he says seems disparate, but we can see across the books, the actual motivation is quite steady. That is why I do not believe we need more scenes from Amaram. He was narcasitic from day one to the end. If he cannot gain glory on the side of honor, then he would on the side of hatred. 

I just dont think this makes sense from what we know of Amaram. We know he cares. That is also made very clear in the books. He had to be talked into stealing the Blade. And when he did it, he did it for the greater good, which I think even Kaladin recognizes when he and Dalinar confront Amaram in WoR. And he is haunted by his crimes, and states his pain at the death of people in his letters to Restares, who he shouldn’t have to feig honor for. 

You are certainly right about that Amaram is in part motivated by selfishness and a wish for glory. But he is also motivated by genuinely wanting to bring Vorinism back to a people who is slowly losing it, and helping his country. There is evidence for both of these sides of him in the books, and I think both are correct. 

Amarams story is the story of a man who wants to be what he can’t become, because of his inability to beat his personal weakness, which is why he is a great foil to Dalinar. They are both men who have selfish drives, and heroic drives. The difference is that Dalinar ultimately fiund the strenght to be the hero. Amaram did not. He did not choose Odium for the glory. He chose Odium because he was unable to do what Dalinar did and accept his mistakes, and take the next step. Odium spent OB talking about taking peoples pain. Dalinar turned him down, but Amaram didn’t because he couldn’t live with the guilt.

Finally, using Jasnah to evaluate Amaram feels like using Kelsier to evaluate a nobleman. She is obviously biased, which affects her objectivity.

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34 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I just dont think this makes sense from what we know of Amaram. We know he cares.

I disagree

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He had to be talked into stealing the Blade. And when he did it, he did it for the greater good, which I think even Kaladin recognizes when he and Dalinar confront Amaram in WoR. And he is haunted by his crimes, and states his pain at the death of people in his letters to Restares, who he shouldn’t have to feig honor for. 

Again Amaram has to be seen as the hero. He couldn't be seen as the hero who won the blade in that situation. So he had to be convinced (playing on his narcissism) that only he could be the one to fully use the blade, so again killing was ok. It was fine to kill all the darkeyes because only he could save the day with the blade. Would destroy anyone to see him being the savior. It is egotistical delusions of grandeur. Amaram is convincing himself that the heralds will return, validating himself. What is the point of all those people dying if there is no one to see him saving the day?

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You are certainly right about that Amaram is in part motivated by selfishness and a wish for glory. But he is also motivated by genuinely wanting to bring Vorinism back to a people who is slowly losing it, and helping his country. There is evidence for both of these sides of him in the books, and I think both are correct. 

I disagree. Basically you view him as wanting him to genuinely restore the religion for idealistic reasons, which would result in his seeming heel turn to come out of no where. I view him wanting to restore the religion as a tool for his ego. It is a means to an end. If someone told him throwing tomatoes at a house would be lauded as wonderful, because in the house is an evil person, Amaram would do so gladly. Not because it is an evil person, but because he would be lauded for it. If it is then revealed that the person in the house is not evil, but a harmless old man, then Amaram would regret his actions. Not because he genuinely feels bad for the man, but because his ego takes a hit. You do not cheer a man throwing a tomato at an innocent old man. So his jump to team Odium in that light makes sense. Otherwise why would he regret letting Kaladin live? Otherwise why would he attempt to attack Dalinar when he thought Dalinar was defenseless? Same with Jasnah. 

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Amarams story is the story of a man who wants to be what he can’t become, because of his inability to beat his personal weakness, which is why he is a great foil to Dalinar.

I disagree

 

edit: actually to add I would argue that Amaram is more accurately a foil to Jasnah. Jasnah is seen as a egotistical, heretical, perfectionist that wants to corrupt the youth and bring down the pious vorin church. The reality is that Jasnah continually doubts herself, has no problem with various religions so long as they respect her own beliefs, admits her own faults, only wants people to question and find answers for themselves, and couldn't care less about the Vorin church except where it gets in her way of researching to stop the desolation which will cause untold numbers of death. Conversely Amaram is seen as humble, pious, man of the people, that everyone wants their kid to grow up to be, and wants to bring back the holy church. The reality is that Amaram will do whatever it takes to maintain that facade, use whatever belief system can validate his ego, never admit personal faults, wants people to just obey and fall in line, and is using the restoration of the church to stroke his own ego. 

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They are both men who have selfish drives, and heroic drives. The difference is that Dalinar ultimately fiund the strenght to be the hero. Amaram did not. He did not choose Odium for the glory.

The book says otherwise. Amaram rationalizes to Kaladin about how is it honorable to help the parshendi. But again, this is so he can be viewed as the hero. He is the reason so many people will die because of a false cause. Since there is no way to turn that around and make him a hero, he jumps to the other side, so he can call "look at me! I am saving the parsh!". Again, ego. Again, glory

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He chose Odium because he was unable to do what Dalinar did and accept his mistakes, and take the next step. Odium spent OB talking about taking peoples pain. Dalinar turned him down, but Amaram didn’t because he couldn’t live with the guilt.

Not mistakes. That it was his fault. That the actions he took to feed his ego was all on him. His ego couldn't handle any evidence showing he is not the perfect hero. 

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Finally, using Jasnah to evaluate Amaram feels like using Kelsier to evaluate a nobleman. She is obviously biased, which affects her objectivity.

If anyone knows Amaram best, it would be Jasnah. We have numerous examples that show they have spent years side by side. It would be using Kelsier to evaluate Dockson. It would be using Dalinar to evaluate Sadeas. It would be Navani to evaluate Ialai. She is not obviously biased, she is obviously knowledgeable of the subject. 

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5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again Amaram has to be seen as the hero. He couldn't be seen as the hero who won the blade in that situation. So he had to be convinced (playing on his narcissism) that only he could be the one to fully use the blade, so again killing was ok. It was fine to kill all the darkeyes because only he could save the day with the blade. Would destroy anyone to see him being the savior. It is egotistical delusions of grandeur. Amaram is convincing himself that the heralds will return, validating himself. What is the point of all those people dying if there is no one to see him saving the day?

We know nothing of how Restares convinced Amaram. There is nothing that points to Restares using Amarams ego to do it. And besides, the fact that Amaram didn’t want too, even when he could hide it and have his reputation benefit from it, is a sign of caring. 

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I disagree. Basically you view him as wanting him to genuinely restore the religion for idealistic reasons, which would result in his seeming heel turn to come out of no where. I view him wanting to restore the religion as a tool for his ego. It is a means to an end. If someone told him throwing tomatoes at a house would be lauded as wonderful, because in the house is an evil person, Amaram would do so gladly. Not because it is an evil person, but because he would be lauded for it. If it is then revealed that the person in the house is not evil, but a harmless old man, then Amaram would regret his actions. Not because he genuinely feels bad for the man, but because his ego takes a hit. You do not cheer a man throwing a tomato at an innocent old man. So his jump to team Odium in that light makes sense. Otherwise why would he regret letting Kaladin live? Otherwise why would he attempt to attack Dalinar when he thought Dalinar was defenseless? Same with Jasnah. 

The book is very clear when it comes to Amaram feeling guilty. He repeats it time and time again, and people like Kaladin?, who hates him believes it. Amaram keeps on justifying his actions with the help of Vorinism. When he discovers that Vorinism is a lie, he can’t forgive himself, because suddenly, all his crimes were for nothing. Which is where Odium comes in, and offers to take away Amarams pain. It makes thematic sense, and character-sense. It is also the reason for why Amaram is such a great foil to Dalinar. Both struggle with guilt. One overcomes it. The other fails. 

Also, he didnt summon his Blade to attack Dalinar or Jasnah. Dalinar was an attempt to defend himself if the Kholins attempted to arrest him. Jasnah was because he lost his temper. Attacking them would be stupid, and Amaram isnt stupid.

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The book says otherwise. Amaram rationalizes to Kaladin about how is it honorable to help the parshendi. But again, this is so he can be viewed as the hero. He is the reason so many people will die because of a false cause. Since there is no way to turn that around and make him a hero, he jumps to the other side, so he can call "look at me! I am saving the parsh!". Again, ego. Again, glory

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Why does he feel bad in private if everything he does is for his ego? If all the caring is an act. 

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Not mistakes. That it was his fault. That the actions he took to feed his ego was all on him. His ego couldn't handle any evidence showing he is not the perfect hero. 

Yes, what Amaram did is on him. And yes, partially he was bad for egoistical reasons. Partially it was for idealistic reasons. I think he is more complex than you give him credit for. 

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

If anyone knows Amaram best, it would be Jasnah. We have numerous examples that show they have spent years side by side. It would be using Kelsier to evaluate Dockson. It would be using Dalinar to evaluate Sadeas. It would be Navani to evaluate Ialai. She is not obviously biased, she is obviously knowledgeable of the subject. 

We dont know how much time they have spent together. Dalinar loved Amaram, and they spent time together too. Might even be more time than Jasnah (could be less too, we dont know). Point is, Jasnah has an unknown beef with Amaram. We dont know what he did to her. We dont know how well she knows him. We know that they have history, that Amaram has a crush on Jasnah, and that Jasnah doesn’t like him. That is not enough to ignore her bias.

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We have a distorted view of the Son's of Honor. In terms of sources, we have;

Gavilar viewed through the eyes of Eshonai, and the preview of Navani's prologue.

Mraize, who is directly in opposition to the SoH. He also doesn't give any information to Shallan that he doesn't want to give to Shallan. And only a couple of items are true.

Skybreakers, through the eyes of Mraize. The only information here is that the Skybreakers are also opposed to the SoH, and felt Amaram was important enough in the organization to assassinate. This all may be a slightly false or twisted as Mraize is an unreliable source of information to Shallan.

Amaram's actions, and very few active thoughts (the WoR epilogue). His thoughts aren't necessarily reliable as well, as he definitely has a narcissistic streak (whether that drives everything he does is a different matter though).

 

I don't think that we have a crystal clear picture of what they want to do. I think we can trust Mraize's general summary: They want to restart the cycle to return the Heralds and the classical strength of the Vorin Church. Beyond that, we don't know how their members view themselves. Amaram pretty clearly thinks he is a patriot, and seems to support the goal as a vehicle for Alethkar's success. Chances are that is how Restares appealed to him. 

On the other hand, looking at just Amaram's actions, he is much closer to a zealot than a patriot. He is so devoted to Vorinism that when betrayed by the church he looks for the only succor available in Odium. He doesn't think of Alethkar, just his own shattered faith.

Side question, are there any theories about who Restares is out there?

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1 hour ago, Config2 said:

Side question, are there any theories about who Restares is out there?

I found this thread from 2017. There's a few interesting observations in there:

 

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2 hours ago, Config2 said:

Side question, are there any theories about who Restares is out there?

There is one that he is one of the guys on Gavilars meeting in Eshonais prologue, and another one that he is Aesudans father.

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17 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

We know nothing of how Restares convinced Amaram. There is nothing that points to Restares using Amarams ego to do it. And besides, the fact that Amaram didn’t want too, even when he could hide it and have his reputation benefit from it, is a sign of caring. 

And you don't know it was Restares convincing Amaram to kill them. The exact quote just says this:

"It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar"

For all you know, the hours of deliberation was not whether or not to take the shardblade from Kaladin, or even the how (killing them) but the how without being caught. If we are to take things at its pure brass tacks, you are reading into things just as much as I am. But to me there is plenty pointing to Restares using Amaram's ego

 

"You see, the men must believe that I killed him."

"It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards."

"It's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin had said was true"

"I can't worry about the lives of a few darkeyed spearmen when thousands of people may be saved by my decision"

"You are being discharged as a deserter and branded as a slave. But you are spared death by my mercy"

 

He has to be seen as the one that won the blade. He has to be the one that has the blade cause only he can best serve Alethkar. Kaladin said its not about Alethkar, its about Amaram, and Amaram knows its true. His decisions are what will save thousands, when in reality it will kill thousands mored. Kaladin gets to live because of his mercy, ignoring the fact that Kaladin would not have needed such mercy to begin with if Amaram didn't betray him. Again, ego. 

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The book is very clear when it comes to Amaram feeling guilty. He repeats it time and time again, and people like Kaladin?, who hates him believes it.

I just showed above a scene where Amaram felt guilty. Why? Because Kaladin called him out on his ego. That it is about Amaram, not about saving/serving Alethkar

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Amaram keeps on justifying his actions with the help of Vorinism.

Really? Because I do not recall a single scene where he says he is doing it because he believes in Vorinism, and that he is saving souls. He says he is doing it for the greater good, but he never does specify what that greater good is. All he states is through bringing about a Desolation, the Heralds must return, and then the church will return to dominance. No mention of people living better. Being better. Souls being saved. Just he has to do it, so he can be seen as the guy leading the return of the church. Otherwise I would appreciate some page references so I can use them when I do the thread covering Amaram in depth. Please show me where he states these things. 

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When he discovers that Vorinism is a lie, he can’t forgive himself, because suddenly, all his crimes were for nothing.

We do not see that. We see him speak with Kaladin about how honorable it is for him to take up the parsh cause. How he made Kaladin. How without him, Kaladin would not be the man he is today. That what he did to Kaladin was a gift. That Kaladin should thank him. That he made a deal with Odium for greatness, and Odium held up his end of the bargain

He grinned "Odium promised me something grand, and that promise has been kept. With honor"

"Give in, and convince the city to surrender. That is for the best. No more need die today. Let me be merciful" (again about him. him showing "mercy", covering the fact there wouldn't have to be mercy again, if it wasn't for his actions to begin with)

"I left you alive. I spared you." Again ego. You are only alive because I took pity on you. You should thank me. Be greatful to me. Ego

"I made you, Kaladin! I gave you that granite will, that warrior's poise. This, the person you've become, was my gift!" (again, look at me, everything you are is because of me)

"Your men died in the name of battle, so that the strongest man would have the weapon." Again self deluding ego. If Amaram was the strongest man to have the weapon, he would have won it. But Kaladin won it, which means Kaladin was the strongest man. By Alethi law, Kaladin can bequeath it to whoever Kaladin wishes. It wasn't Amaram's choice. It wasn't his decision, and he was not the strongest man to earn it

"Everything I've done, I've done for Alethkar. I'm a patriot!" (by bringing about a desolation which would result in untold lost lives. By killing innocent dark eyes. By attempting to steal a shardblade from Dalinar and then trying to draw a shardblade on an unarmed Dalinar. By trying to get Kaladin arrested, or executed, and regretting having not killed Kaladin back then. Yeah, that totally sounds like doing things for Alethkar. 

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Which is where Odium comes in, and offers to take away Amarams pain. It makes thematic sense, and character-sense. It is also the reason for why Amaram is such a great foil to Dalinar. Both struggle with guilt. One overcomes it. The other fails. 

Again, I disagree. I think Amaram is a foil to Jasnah. Amaram outwardly is the wonderful paragon of all Alethi values, while Jasnah is the dirty evil heretic. The reality is Amaram is bringing about the end of the world and has done horrible things to innocent people, while Jasnah is trying to save the world, and has saved innocent people. 

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Also, he didnt summon his Blade to attack Dalinar or Jasnah. Dalinar was an attempt to defend himself if the Kholins attempted to arrest him.

That is incorrect. First of all Dalinar says you cannot arrest a shardbearer. You either let them go or execute them. Second Amaram said on multiple occasions that he would stand trial so he had no fear of being arrested. Third, here is the scene:

 

"I believe an apology is due" (requesting an apology is what started it)

"Surely you don't believe these allegations, Dalinar!"

"A few weeks ago I received two special visitors in camp. One was a trusted servant who had come from Kholinar in secret, bringing a precious cargo. The other was that cargo: a madman who had arrived at the gates of Kholinar carring a Shardblade"

Amaram paled and stepped back, hand going to his side (so Dalinar showing he figured Amaram out was enough for Amaram to begin summoning his blade)

 

I see no attempt to arrest Amaram when Amaram begins to summon his blade. Dalinar stated that Amaram needed to apologize to Kaladin, and that he believed Kaladin. That was enough for Amaram to begin summoning his blade

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Jasnah was because he lost his temper.

Because he continually got in her face, and when she refused to do what he said, he forced her more. She defended herself verbally, and he went to pull a shardblade on her. The only reason he stopped was because he knew Jasnah could win, and everyone was watching. It is that scene she comments to herself about his ego

"His eyes flicked up to meet hers; then he spun and stalked from the room, shoulders hunched as if trying to shrug away the eyes - and the snickers - of the scholars"

"He will be trouble, Jasnah thought Even more than he has been. Amaram genuinely thought he was Alethkar's only hope and salvation, and had a keep desire to prove it. Left alone, he'd rip the armies apart to justify his inflated opinion of himself." And this was proven with Kaladin, the Shattered Plains, and Thaylenah. Each time sacrificing or wanting to sacrifice lives, for his own ego and glory. But I will quote them again below

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Attacking them would be stupid, and Amaram isnt stupid.

Dalinar on two occasions seems to disagree:

 

"Of course" Amaram added, more softly "And I do see the tactical importance of knowing the enemy fortifications"

You fool "The Thaylens are not our enemies"

 

"First Sebarial, then Aladar? Your trust seems to come cheaply today, Dalinar"

"Would you have me turn them away?

"Think how spectacular this victory would be if we did it on our own."

"I hope we're above such vainglory, old friend"

Speaking of fools....

 

So twice Dalinar thinks of Amaram as a fool. 

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Why does he feel bad in private if everything he does is for his ego? If all the caring is an act. 

Because those things impinge on his ego. Like I said, if he thought throwing tomatoes at an evil person's house would get him lauded, he would. Not because the person is evil, but because it is seen as good to do. If the person is revealed to be good, and Amaram is then seen as bad for doing it, Amaram would ruminate, and feel guilty. Not because he feels bad for hurting a good person, but for taking an action that damaged his image and thereby his ego. Below is a description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sounds like it hits every level with Amaram to me. 

Narcissistic Personality Disorder deals with love of an inflated self-image. They are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it's causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. They are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticism, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as person attacks. Narcissists believe they are unique or "special" and can only be understood by other special people. Narcissists also believe that they're better than everyone else, and expect recognition as such - even when they've done nothing to earn it. They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. When they talk about work or relationships, all you'll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage. 

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Yes, what Amaram did is on him. And yes, partially he was bad for egoistical reasons. Partially it was for idealistic reasons. I think he is more complex than you give him credit for. 

I think the scenes we see in the novels support Amaram's egotism. 

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We dont know how much time they have spent together. Dalinar loved Amaram, and they spent time together too. Might even be more time than Jasnah (could be less too, we dont know). Point is, Jasnah has an unknown beef with Amaram. We dont know what he did to her. We dont know how well she knows him. We know that they have history, that Amaram has a crush on Jasnah, and that Jasnah doesn’t like him. That is not enough to ignore her bias.

Navani and Ialai have a beef now. Should we disregard everything Navani says about Ialai especially when it is validated via Ialai's actions? Amaram does exactly what Jasnah said three times in the book. Kaladin, the Shattered Plains, and Thaylenah. I've quoted them above, and Dalinar calls Amaram a fool for it. 

3 hours ago, Config2 said:

We have a distorted view of the Son's of Honor. In terms of sources, we have;

Gavilar viewed through the eyes of Eshonai, and the preview of Navani's prologue.

Mraize, who is directly in opposition to the SoH. He also doesn't give any information to Shallan that he doesn't want to give to Shallan. And only a couple of items are true.

Skybreakers, through the eyes of Mraize. The only information here is that the Skybreakers are also opposed to the SoH, and felt Amaram was important enough in the organization to assassinate. This all may be a slightly false or twisted as Mraize is an unreliable source of information to Shallan.

Amaram's actions, and very few active thoughts (the WoR epilogue). His thoughts aren't necessarily reliable as well, as he definitely has a narcissistic streak (whether that drives everything he does is a different matter though).

We have WoB that the Sons of Honor are the least knowledgeable and most wrong of all the secret societies. 

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I don't think that we have a crystal clear picture of what they want to do. I think we can trust Mraize's general summary: They want to restart the cycle to return the Heralds and the classical strength of the Vorin Church. Beyond that, we don't know how their members view themselves. Amaram pretty clearly thinks he is a patriot, and seems to support the goal as a vehicle for Alethkar's success. Chances are that is how Restares appealed to him. 

We have WoB confirming they are trying to bring about the desolations in order to get the heralds to return. We have from Amaram's own mouth on multiple occasions that that is their goal. 

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On the other hand, looking at just Amaram's actions, he is much closer to a zealot than a patriot. He is so devoted to Vorinism that when betrayed by the church he looks for the only succor available in Odium. He doesn't think of Alethkar, just his own shattered faith.

As I said above, his focus is not on religion, nor Alethkar, it is being seen as the hero/savior. Classic narcissistic personality disorder

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33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

We have WoB confirming they are trying to bring about the desolations in order to get the heralds to return. We have from Amaram's own mouth on multiple occasions that that is their goal. 

That's what I said. I think their desire to return the Classical Strength of the Church can also be assumed to be correct, as it is a general statement. Those generally aren't manipulations from Sanderson as far as I've seen. That doesn't mean it matters greatly in comparison to the heralds part (or just the return of powers) for individual members.

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We have WoB that the Sons of Honor are the least knowledgeable and most wrong of all the secret societies. 

I felt this was implicit with or without the WoB, but is another piece of information to trust 100%.

We have the Skybreakers, who have the most information by default, as they have Nale in their ranks. We have the Diagram, who have significant knowledge, but lack the first hand accounts of Nale. If Mr. T is telling the truth about Battar approaching them, it seems unlikely that she would share the all of her knowledge. If she has, than the Diagram have more knowledge than the Skybreakers. Last we have the Ghostbloods, who are extremely knowledgeable, and much more cosmere aware than the others, but are nonetheless outsiders on Roshar. They don't have access to a herald. Mraize even admits this, although I could see that being a lie (their desire to obtain Sja-Anat indicates they might be aiming to level the playing field however). The Sons of Honor really don't seem to even be in the running. We may find they are better informed than they seem later, but it doesn't seem likely so far.

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As I said above, his focus is not on religion, nor Alethkar, it is being seen as the hero/savior. Classic narcissistic personality disorder

I think you may be oversimplifying Amaram. You have convinced me that he is certainly a narcissistic, and it drives most of his actions at some level, but I don't think that his love of Alethkar or Vorinism is entirely subsumed by his narcissism. He feels real regret for killing Kaladin's squad, and has to be convinced to do it. He knows that it is not honorable, and knows that he will suffer internally for it. He does it anyway because he thinks it will be better for the world. In that decision is narcissism, certainly. Martyrdom itself is vaguely narcissistic for that matter. He thinks that he can wield the shards more effectively in all senses of the word. He is aware, however, that half the reason that he is doing it is because he knows it looks better, not that it actually is better. The guilt he feels is too close to the surface for a true narcissist.

In that sense he is right. It does look better for Alethkar's social system (which he believes is good, for narcissistic reasons or not), for the Light-Eyes to be the hero.

It is definitely possible, probably even likely, that the ultimate conclusion you draw is true; his final turn from Honor to Odium and betrayal of Dalinar is based mostly in his failure to be the hero to people. He turns to Odium to escape the knowledge that he has failed to become the savior of Alethkar, and the guilt over the things he did to achieve that goal, rather than the betrayal of Vorinism. I'm in that camp at least. I do think there may have been another path for him.

 

I don't think Jasnah is 100% reliable as a narrator when it comes to Amaram. In general, she is right, and has him pegged for a self-focused phoney. But she clearly hates his guts, and cant see the good intentions that might exist. In essence, we can rely on her opinion if she says something good about him, but negative items might be colored by her personal feelings.  She likely has seen some of the worst of him, and therefore isn't likely to be able to see the best (if the best exists. All I'm saying is that it is ambiguous).

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9 minutes ago, Config2 said:

I don't think Jasnah is 100% reliable as a narrator when it comes to Amaram. In general, she is right, and has him pegged for a self-focused phoney. But she clearly hates his guts, and cant see the good intentions that might exist. In essence, we can rely on her opinion if she says something good about him, but negative items might be colored by her personal feelings.  She likely has seen some of the worst of him, and therefore isn't likely to be able to see the best (if the best exists. All I'm saying is that it is ambiguous).

Though I believe that if Jasnah has such incredibly negative feelings towards someone that she can't have a conversation with them without throwing insults at them, there is a reason behind it.
Whatever it is that happened between them, it was bad. Otherwise, Jasnah would be much more in control than she was during that scene in OB.

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1 hour ago, Config2 said:

That's what I said. I think their desire to return the Classical Strength of the Church can also be assumed to be correct, as it is a general statement. Those generally aren't manipulations from Sanderson as far as I've seen. That doesn't mean it matters greatly in comparison to the heralds part (or just the return of powers) for individual members.

I think where we disagree is you see the return of the church as a holy mission of saving souls, while I see it as a power play.

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We have the Skybreakers, who have the most information by default, as they have Nale in their ranks. We have the Diagram, who have significant knowledge, but lack the first hand accounts of Nale. If Mr. T is telling the truth about Battar approaching them, it seems unlikely that she would share the all of her knowledge. If she has, than the Diagram have more knowledge than the Skybreakers. Last we have the Ghostbloods, who are extremely knowledgeable, and much more cosmere aware than the others, but are nonetheless outsiders on Roshar. They don't have access to a herald. Mraize even admits this, although I could see that being a lie (their desire to obtain Sja-Anat indicates they might be aiming to level the playing field however). The Sons of Honor really don't seem to even be in the running. We may find they are better informed than they seem later, but it doesn't seem likely so far.

Which is why I believe the Sons of Honor are reprehensible. They are operating on incomplete and false information to bring about a desolation which will cause untold loss of life, in order to regain global control. 

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I think you may be oversimplifying Amaram. You have convinced me that he is certainly a narcissistic, and it drives most of his actions at some level, but I don't think that his love of Alethkar or Vorinism is entirely subsumed by his narcissism. He feels real regret for killing Kaladin's squad, and has to be convinced to do it. He knows that it is not honorable, and knows that he will suffer internally for it. He does it anyway because he thinks it will be better for the world. In that decision is narcissism, certainly. Martyrdom itself is vaguely narcissistic for that matter. He thinks that he can wield the shards more effectively in all senses of the word. He is aware, however, that half the reason that he is doing it is because he knows it looks better, not that it actually is better. The guilt he feels is too close to the surface for a true narcissist.

I feel I already replied to all of this with Toaster. I will copy paste it below and I guess we agree to disagree?

 

And you don't know it was Restares convincing Amaram to kill them. The exact quote just says this:

"It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar"

For all you know, the hours of deliberation was not whether or not to take the shardblade from Kaladin, or even the how (killing them) but the how without being caught. If we are to take things at its pure brass tacks, you are reading into things just as much as I am. But to me there is plenty pointing to Restares using Amaram's ego

 

"You see, the men must believe that I killed him."

"It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards."

"It's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin had said was true"

"I can't worry about the lives of a few darkeyed spearmen when thousands of people may be saved by my decision"

"You are being discharged as a deserter and branded as a slave. But you are spared death by my mercy"

 

He has to be seen as the one that won the blade. He has to be the one that has the blade cause only he can best serve Alethkar. Kaladin said its not about Alethkar, its about Amaram, and Amaram knows its true. His decisions are what will save thousands, when in reality it will kill thousands mored. Kaladin gets to live because of his mercy, ignoring the fact that Kaladin would not have needed such mercy to begin with if Amaram didn't betray him. Again, ego. 

 

We do not see that. We see him speak with Kaladin about how honorable it is for him to take up the parsh cause. How he made Kaladin. How without him, Kaladin would not be the man he is today. That what he did to Kaladin was a gift. That Kaladin should thank him. That he made a deal with Odium for greatness, and Odium held up his end of the bargain

He grinned "Odium promised me something grand, and that promise has been kept. With honor"

"Give in, and convince the city to surrender. That is for the best. No more need die today. Let me be merciful" (again about him. him showing "mercy", covering the fact there wouldn't have to be mercy again, if it wasn't for his actions to begin with)

"I left you alive. I spared you." Again ego. You are only alive because I took pity on you. You should thank me. Be greatful to me. Ego

"I made you, Kaladin! I gave you that granite will, that warrior's poise. This, the person you've become, was my gift!" (again, look at me, everything you are is because of me)

"Your men died in the name of battle, so that the strongest man would have the weapon." Again self deluding ego. If Amaram was the strongest man to have the weapon, he would have won it. But Kaladin won it, which means Kaladin was the strongest man. By Alethi law, Kaladin can bequeath it to whoever Kaladin wishes. It wasn't Amaram's choice. It wasn't his decision, and he was not the strongest man to earn it

"Everything I've done, I've done for Alethkar. I'm a patriot!" (by bringing about a desolation which would result in untold lost lives. By killing innocent dark eyes. By attempting to steal a shardblade from Dalinar and then trying to draw a shardblade on an unarmed Dalinar. By trying to get Kaladin arrested, or executed, and regretting having not killed Kaladin back then. Yeah, that totally sounds like doing things for Alethkar. 

 

So the guilt goes in line with a narcissistic personality disorder. He built up a self delusion that only he can save the world. Anytime he is confronted with facts that dispute it, he feels shame and guilt, which is exactly what someone with narcissistic personality disorder would do because it does not line up with their delusion. so they disregard these facts, and blame the person, which is exactly what Amaram did. 

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In that sense he is right. It does look better for Alethkar's social system (which he believes is good, for narcissistic reasons or not), for the Light-Eyes to be the hero.

Except any darkeyes that takes up a shardblade would become a lighteyes and be a hero. he did not say any lighteyes, he said it had to be him

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It is definitely possible, probably even likely, that the ultimate conclusion you draw is true; his final turn from Honor to Odium and betrayal of Dalinar is based mostly in his failure to be the hero to people. He turns to Odium to escape the knowledge that he has failed to become the savior of Alethkar, and the guilt over the things he did to achieve that goal, rather than the betrayal of Vorinism. I'm in that camp at least. I do think there may have been another path for him.

Sorry that is not what I said. I said his reason for jumping ship with Odium is because finding out the heralds lied shatters the delusion he created. Where he is the paragon returning the vorin church to power. Since the heralds lied, then everything he did was wrong, like throwing that tomato at that evil person's house. When he found out the evil person was a good person, there is no way to repair his image. No one he can remove, or change the fact that he was wrong and now looks bad. So then he takes the first out he can, that again can restore that self delusion. In this case turning to a different group who does look at that old man as evil, thereby lauding him as good and wonderful again. He is not in the wrong, it was the group of people who are wrong. He is still wonderful and honorable and a paragon. Self delusion maintained. 

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I don't think Jasnah is 100% reliable as a narrator when it comes to Amaram. In general, she is right, and has him pegged for a self-focused phoney. But she clearly hates his guts, and cant see the good intentions that might exist. In essence, we can rely on her opinion if she says something good about him, but negative items might be colored by her personal feelings.  She likely has seen some of the worst of him, and therefore isn't likely to be able to see the best (if the best exists. All I'm saying is that it is ambiguous).

Again biased or not, colored or not, Jasnah was right. Three instances of him doing exactly what she says he would do. 

1 hour ago, Winds Alight said:

Though I believe that if Jasnah has such incredibly negative feelings towards someone that she can't have a conversation with them without throwing insults at them, there is a reason behind it.
Whatever it is that happened between them, it was bad. Otherwise, Jasnah would be much more in control than she was during that scene in OB.

I agree. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

And you don't know it was Restares convincing Amaram to kill them. The exact quote just says this:

"It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar"

For all you know, the hours of deliberation was not whether or not to take the shardblade from Kaladin, or even the how (killing them) but the how without being caught. If we are to take things at its pure brass tacks, you are reading into things just as much as I am. But to me there is plenty pointing to Restares using Amaram's ego

"It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar." This heavily implies that Restares was convincing Amaram to do it. Why would he even speak of Restares opinions if they just discussed how to get away with the act. And furthermore, the quote is in the context of Amaram telling Kaladin why he couldn´t just ask for the Shards. That implies that Amaram maybe wanted to ask, but Restares told him not to. We have to read into things when discussing Amaram, since he doesn´t have too much screen-time. But I believe that the way the quote is phrased and the context it is in, defenitely makes it look like Restares was convincing Amaram to commit the crime. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

He has to be seen as the one that won the blade. He has to be the one that has the blade cause only he can best serve Alethkar. Kaladin said its not about Alethkar, its about Amaram, and Amaram knows its true. His decisions are what will save thousands, when in reality it will kill thousands mored. Kaladin gets to live because of his mercy, ignoring the fact that Kaladin would not have needed such mercy to begin with if Amaram didn't betray him. Again, ego. 

Yes, he has to be seen as the one who rightfully claimed the Blade. Both for his egos sake and for helping Alethkar. I am not arguing against that Amaram is driven by ego. I' m arguing that he is driven by more than one thing, as is the case with most humans. He is complex character, not a one-dimensional bad guy. Amaram looks guilty because he knows that part of him is driven by greed, and that it is partially about himself. But not completely. If that was the case, this exchange would be very out of place:

Amaram looked Kaladin in the eys. "I am sorry for what I did to you and yours. Sometimes, good men must die so that greater goals might be accomplished."
 Kaladin felt a gathering chill, a numbness that spread from his heart outward. He... honestly believes that he did the right thing.

Amaram honestly believes that his actions were justified. He doesn´t like them, because he has a moral compass, but he does believe that it was for a good cause. And Kaladin believes him. 

As for sparing Kaladin, that is a risk. He could just has well have done it out of guilt. He couldn´t bear to murder the man who saved his life. It looks more as a way to convince himself that he isn´t all bad, makes his sins easier to forget. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Really? Because I do not recall a single scene where he says he is doing it because he believes in Vorinism, and that he is saving souls. He says he is doing it for the greater good, but he never does specify what that greater good is. All he states is through bringing about a Desolation, the Heralds must return, and then the church will return to dominance. No mention of people living better. Being better. Souls being saved. Just he has to do it, so he can be seen as the guy leading the return of the church. Otherwise I would appreciate some page references so I can use them when I do the thread covering Amaram in depth. Please show me where he states these things.

Read Amarams POV at the end of WoR. It shows his drive for the greater good. Some quotes for you:

I do not exult in this success. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis. The crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many. Nalan send that it is worth the loss. 

This is Amarams letter to Restares, and speaks of his worries and guilt at the death of millions. He also makes it clear that he cares about the greater goal, and that he hopes that the return of the Heralds will be worth the loss of human lives. 

It was happening. It was really happening. The Sons of Honor had, at long last, achieved their goal. Gavilar would be proud. 

Amaram seems to be very excited about the imminent return of the Heralds. And he also thinks of how Gavilar would feel in regards to their success. Do note, he does not think of any of his own achievements or sacrifices here. Just about the success of the Sons of Honor as a whole. A narcissist would probably try to claim glory somewhere here, but he doesn´t. In fact, Amaram does not seem particularly narcissistic at all in this sequence. He does not speak to Taln about himself either, but instead talks about how Taln is, and what is awaiting Taln. 

Amaram had, somewhat foolishly, expected all Heralds to look Alethi. 

He admits to being a fool in certain aspects. Again, not really a sign of narcissism.

The Desolation... Talenelat whispered. 
"Yes. It comes. And with it, your return to glory."

Bolded by me. Again, Amaram focuses on Taln, not himself. Because to him, Taln is a holy being. 

Heart thumping in his chest, he looked back toward Talenelat, worried for the Heralds safety.

After Amaram is attacked by Iyatil, he worries for Talns safety, and takes a moment to let his guard down and check on him. Granted, you could argue that this is just because he wants to deliver Taln and gain glory, but his earlier words and thoughts speaks of him as a man dedicated to the greater cause, and Taln is very much part of that cause. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

We do not see that. We see him speak with Kaladin about how honorable it is for him to take up the parsh cause. How he made Kaladin. How without him, Kaladin would not be the man he is today. That what he did to Kaladin was a gift. That Kaladin should thank him. That he made a deal with Odium for greatness, and Odium held up his end of the bargain

He grinned "Odium promised me something grand, and that promise has been kept. With honor"

"Give in, and convince the city to surrender. That is for the best. No more need die today. Let me be merciful" (again about him. him showing "mercy", covering the fact there wouldn't have to be mercy again, if it wasn't for his actions to begin with)

"I left you alive. I spared you." Again ego. You are only alive because I took pity on you. You should thank me. Be greatful to me. Ego

"I made you, Kaladin! I gave you that granite will, that warrior's poise. This, the person you've become, was my gift!" (again, look at me, everything you are is because of me)

"Your men died in the name of battle, so that the strongest man would have the weapon." Again self deluding ego. If Amaram was the strongest man to have the weapon, he would have won it. But Kaladin won it, which means Kaladin was the strongest man. By Alethi law, Kaladin can bequeath it to whoever Kaladin wishes. It wasn't Amaram's choice. It wasn't his decision, and he was not the strongest man to earn it

"Everything I've done, I've done for Alethkar. I'm a patriot!" (by bringing about a desolation which would result in untold lost lives. By killing innocent dark eyes. By attempting to steal a shardblade from Dalinar and then trying to draw a shardblade on an unarmed Dalinar. By trying to get Kaladin arrested, or executed, and regretting having not killed Kaladin back then. Yeah, that totally sounds like doing things for Alethkar.

Yes we do. We see that Odium has taken away Amarams pain. Here:

"I hurt once", Amaram said. "Did you know that? After I was forced to kill your squad, I... hurt. Until I realized. It wasn´t my fault. The color of his glowing eyes intensified to a simmering crimson. "None of this is my fault."

This is what Odium does to people. He takes their pain, makes them feel like they don´t have to be held responsible for their own actions. He tries to do this exact thing to Dalinar, and fails:

"Don' t blame yourself" Odium said as Dalinar winced. "I made you kill her, Dalinar. I caused all of this."

This is what Odium does. He takes away pain, and convinces people it wasn´t their fault. He tricks and deceives them. Amarams claims at Thaylen Fields are more extreme than he has been earlier. This is Odiums effect. Odium enhances his bad traits by encouraging him to make up excuses for his actions. It is at this point, under the influence of Odium, that Amaram has turned into a full-blown narcissist, whereas he only has narcissistic streaks earlier. This is also why he is the foil to Dalinar. They have both done terrible things. They are both haunted by them. One gives in to Odium, the other doesn´t. It is a main point of the narrative in OB.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, I disagree. I think Amaram is a foil to Jasnah. Amaram outwardly is the wonderful paragon of all Alethi values, while Jasnah is the dirty evil heretic. The reality is Amaram is bringing about the end of the world and has done horrible things to innocent people, while Jasnah is trying to save the world, and has saved innocent people.

In that way, Amaram is a foil to Jasnah. However, he serves a bigger narrative purpose by being Dalinars foil, not Jasnahs. He directly works as a mirror to the main character arc in OB, and shows what would happen if Dalinar had gone down the simple route, instead of the difficult one. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

That is incorrect. First of all Dalinar says you cannot arrest a shardbearer. You either let them go or execute them. Second Amaram said on multiple occasions that he would stand trial so he had no fear of being arrested. Third, here is the scene:

 

"I believe an apology is due" (requesting an apology is what started it)

"Surely you don't believe these allegations, Dalinar!"

"A few weeks ago I received two special visitors in camp. One was a trusted servant who had come from Kholinar in secret, bringing a precious cargo. The other was that cargo: a madman who had arrived at the gates of Kholinar carring a Shardblade"

Amaram paled and stepped back, hand going to his side (so Dalinar showing he figured Amaram out was enough for Amaram to begin summoning his blade)

 

I see no attempt to arrest Amaram when Amaram begins to summon his blade. Dalinar stated that Amaram needed to apologize to Kaladin, and that he believed Kaladin. That was enough for Amaram to begin summoning his blade

Dalinar was about to prove that Amaram was guilty of murder, theft, lies and miscrediting his own victim. An arrest could have happened at any time. And Amaram would be a fool to strike down Dalinar then and there. They were standing in the middle of Dalinars bodyguards, and his army, with his loyal son, the dueling champion, and a bunch of other loyal shardbearers nearby. Had Amaram gone for it, he wouldn' t have left alive. And he is not that stupid. The Blade was there to ensure that he could get away, nothing more. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Because he continually got in her face, and when she refused to do what he said, he forced her more. She defended herself verbally, and he went to pull a shardblade on her. The only reason he stopped was because he knew Jasnah could win, and everyone was watching. It is that scene she comments to herself about his ego

"His eyes flicked up to meet hers; then he spun and stalked from the room, shoulders hunched as if trying to shrug away the eyes - and the snickers - of the scholars"

"He will be trouble, Jasnah thought Even more than he has been. Amaram genuinely thought he was Alethkar's only hope and salvation, and had a keep desire to prove it. Left alone, he'd rip the armies apart to justify his inflated opinion of himself." And this was proven with Kaladin, the Shattered Plains, and Thaylenah. Each time sacrificing or wanting to sacrifice lives, for his own ego and glory. But I will quote them again below

First off, Jasnah says it herself: Amaram genuinely thinks he is Alethkars hope and salvation. Genuinely. 

Second, he loses his temper here, and is shamed in front of dozens of people. He has an overinflated ego, and is used to be able to command respect with his Blade. I doubt he would actually try to kill Jasnah here. We can also note that we don´t know the timeline of when Odium started hanging out with him. This could be before or after, but if it is the latter case, he was influenced by him here. I personally think he switched sides in Thaylen City, but there is no evidence for that. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So twice Dalinar thinks of Amaram as a fool.

Considering one a fool isn´t the same as consider them stupid. Gandalf considers Pippin to be foolish at times, but never stupid. Amaram is a great general, and is trusted by both Gavilar and Restares. You don´t get that high up in a secret organization if you are stupid. The fact that Gavilar liked him also speaks for his intelligence. Gavilar was intelligent, no question about it. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Because those things impinge on his ego. Like I said, if he thought throwing tomatoes at an evil person's house would get him lauded, he would. Not because the person is evil, but because it is seen as good to do. If the person is revealed to be good, and Amaram is then seen as bad for doing it, Amaram would ruminate, and feel guilty. Not because he feels bad for hurting a good person, but for taking an action that damaged his image and thereby his ego. Below is a description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sounds like it hits every level with Amaram to me. 

Narcissistic Personality Disorder deals with love of an inflated self-image. They are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it's causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. They are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticism, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as person attacks. Narcissists believe they are unique or "special" and can only be understood by other special people. Narcissists also believe that they're better than everyone else, and expect recognition as such - even when they've done nothing to earn it. They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. When they talk about work or relationships, all you'll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage. 

Amaram does things he thinks is right (killing Kaladins men, which is an action Kaladin states that he himself believes was right) and still feels bad about it, because he killed and betrayed innocents. And he felt bad before Kaladin revealed it to Dalinar. The tomato argument is not representative of how Amaram acts or thinks.

As for the narcisism, I have already shown why I don´t think Amaram has the personality disorder. He defenitively has narcisistic traits, but not the entire disorder. He is in fact suffering from inner feelings of shame as stated above. He is also not at all times talking about his own greatness. In fact, he speaks of Dalinar as a role model and praises him, not himself. He speaks of glory for Taln, not himself. He is a great general, but he never goes into long rants about his military accomplishments. He is also very aware of the fact that Jasnah rejects him, and asks her why. He does not blame Dalinar for causing their friendship to break. Furthermore, Wikipedia states that the disorder brings lack of emphaty, which doesn't fit with Amaram.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think the scenes we see in the novels support Amaram's egotism. 

Quote

Agreed. But I think they also show his care about the greater good, and genuine horror at the crimes he commits. 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Navani and Ialai have a beef now. Should we disregard everything Navani says about Ialai especially when it is validated via Ialai's actions? Amaram does exactly what Jasnah said three times in the book. Kaladin, the Shattered Plains, and Thaylenah. I've quoted them above, and Dalinar calls Amaram a fool for it. 

7 hours ago, Config2 said:

Yes, he does the things Jasnah accuses him of. But she hates him, and therefore, is not a great character witness. She is right about that he does bad things, but her overall assessment might miss out on the better parts, simply because of her bias. 

3

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