(OB) Most Disliked Stormlight Character

[Jaywalk]

5 hours ago, Justi said:

First he gave Shallan amazing excuse, so she is free of all the criticism. She have personality disorder If she does something bad, you can’t criticize her because this version is not real Shallan. If she does something amazing, you had to congratulate her because she overcome amazing difficulties. Some celebrities uses this tactic. You can’t criticize them because they have disadvantaged backrounds. If you criticize them you are Nazis.

I disagree with you in that he gave Shallan an excuse. It's not that she can't control her personas; it's that she slips into those other personas depending on her situation, acting as a comfort zone. She's still the one making decisions, no matter what persona she chooses. It's not an excuse to us readers, because we know she's trying to hide behind that. Also, her personas represent different facets of her personality, creating a more complex whole--for instance, Radiant is merely a facet, representing a royal archetype.

[Justi]

Quote

Bella Swan is the most divisive. The people who like Bella Swan scenes love Bella scenes. The people who don't like Bella scenes, she is their least favorite character. And that's a sign that I'm doing a character right

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Trump is the most divisive. The people who like Trump’s work love Trump work. The people who don't like Trump work, he is their least favorite person. And that's a sign that he is doing his job right

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Oh I like that You can justify anything and everyone  

By the way he is right, being divisive is very good only If it is your choices or motives are questioned like Phoenix’s Joker for example. Some peoples agree, some peoples disagree. Peoples are talking all about you. This is good because we can only learn by talking. For example Joker’s film critics were amazing not just because film is amazing. Because they torned apart every scene of the film and found tiny little things. But Sanderson is talking about a character which ignored by half of her audience. Peoples skipped Shallan’s pages and really I don’t want to came up with that but what peoples are mostly talking about her is love triangle. You can write some soap opera and be divisive as Shallan now. Really Sanderson?  

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Justi said:

Oh I like that You can justify anything and everyone  

By the way he is right, being divisive is very good only If it is your choices or motives are questioned like Phoenix’s Joker for example. Some peoples agree, some peoples disagree. Peoples are talking all about you. This is good because we can only learn by talking. For example Joker’s film critics were amazing not just because film is amazing. Because they torned apart every scene of the film and found tiny little things. But Sanderson is talking about a character which ignored by half of her audience. Peoples skipped Shallan’s pages and really I don’t want to came up with that but what peoples are mostly talking about her is love triangle. You can write some soap opera and be divisive as Shallan now. Really Sanderson?  

That's... The "love triangle" is such a minor part of the plot. There's a lot more to Shallan than that, and I'd have actually enjoyed her character more if it hadn't happened. 

I hope you're not serious. Making assumptions on other people's perception of a character that you have admittedly skipped portions on their narrative is... Kind of gross? 

[Justi]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's... The "love triangle" is such a minor part of the plot. There's a lot more to Shallan than that, and I'd have actually enjoyed her character more if it hadn't happened. 

I hope you're not serious. Making assumptions on other people's perception of a character that you have admittedly skipped portions on their narrative is... Kind of gross? 

She is one of the least favorite character in this poll just behind Sadeas (%14) and Amaram (%13) and Shallan is %12. She is one of the least favorite alive in this poll. And I can find many comments peoples are skipping her chapters. There is a thread called Shallan Davar disgust thread you can find innocent new members here and there. I don’t read her chapters but I’m reading comments. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Justi said:

She is one of the least favorite character in this poll just behind Sadeas (%14) and Amaram (%13) and Shallan is %12. She is one of the least favorite alive in this poll. And I can find many comments peoples are skipping her chapters. There is a thread called Shallan Davar disgust thread you can find innocent new members here and there. I don’t read her chapters but I’m reading comments. 

And if you're reading information specifically designed to find the characters people dislike, your not going to find the ones who like her. There's a large number of people that I've talked to that Shallan is the thing that for them hooked them on SA in the first place. 

What you're experiencing is called confirmation bias. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

@Calderis It felt like that plotline is done. At least, that is how I read it. But I might be wrong.

@Justi I think Brandon means that Shallan is a character people interpret differently, and who some people really, love, and some people really dont get. Which is how real people work. Not trying to get political, but Trump is a great example. The people who love the guy are huge fans. And the people who dont like him despises him. Same with Shallan.

Also, as for the poll, it was made just after OBs release (by me!) and I think Shallans numbers might be a bit lower had it been done today. When OB was fresh, frustration about Shallan was bigger, because people had not had the time to digest her role in the book yet. Had I made the poll today, I think she would have a lower number (but again, I might be wrong). 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Calderis It felt like that plotline is done. At least, that is how I read it. But I might be wrong.

It's not. And I don't understand why so many think it was. How can the repercussions of his actions be over when no one even knew of his actions until the end of the book? 

Quote

JoyBlu's Friend

Many of my questions have to do with the Dalinar-Adolin relationship because I love families and I find this particular relationship very strained. I wish to know stuff like what Dalinar really feels for Adolin, as I find he treats him more like a tool than a son. Or whether or not we've seen the end of the Adolin murdered Sadeas narrative arc, as no character really had the time to react to it yet.

Brandon Sanderson

You have not seen the end of that arc. Dalinar loves his son but has trouble treating anyone as anything other than tools.

JoyBlu's Friend

What are Brandon's thoughts on the relationship? I'd also die to hear Brandon speak about what to expect for Adolin within book 4 in terms of length, scope—

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! RAFO!

JoyBlu's Friend

—as I just wished to give Brandon comment on the fact that some readers were disappointed with the outcome of this narrative arc.

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, RAFO.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

[Karger]

30 minutes ago, Justi said:

Trump is the most divisive. The people who like Trump’s work love Trump work. The people who don't like Trump work, he is their least favorite person. And that's a sign that he is doing his job right

Sure if the real world was a work of literature.

9 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

 It felt like that plotline is done. At least, that is how I read it. But I might be wrong.

It is actually more of the beginning of a new plot line.  Adolin has now admitted he can't be the person Dalinar wanted him to be he now has to figure out who he actually is.

9 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, as for the poll, it was made just after OBs release (by me!) and I think Shallans numbers might be a bit lower had it been done today. When OB was fresh, frustration about Shallan was bigger, because people had not had the time to digest her role in the book yet. Had I made the poll today, I think she would have a lower number (but again, I might be wrong). 

This is also a possibility.  I want to add that it is not like online polling is particularly accurate.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Karger

[Toaster Retribution]

@Calderis The arcanist strikes again! I had forgotten about the WoB, so thanks for the reminder. 

There are a couple reasons for why I felt that the arc was over. First one is simply that Adolin isnt one of the main three (four in the next book, since Venli probably has a big role). Adolin has never really had major arcs of his own and I felt like the Sadeas thing wouldn’t fit in considering all the other stuff we will presumably get in book 4.

The other reason is simply that it feels like exploring the ramifications if Sadeas murder one in-story year after Adolin reveals that he did it, would just feel strange to me. Like Dalinar (or someone else) waits for the readers to come back before they punish Adolin. 

@Karger Open polls are the best thing since toasted bread. That is objective truth. 

[Elegy]

Regarding that terrible Trump comparison, never compare politics and art. It's two very different things. Which is also why that should be left out of this, but I feel like it calls for pointing out that that's not a good argument.

Regarding Adolin, I have some issues with his arc. The story constantly seems to push him away from responsibility. He was going to become highprince in Way of Kings, didn't happen. He was going to become king in Oathbringer, didn't happen. He was going to take responsibility for the murder of Sadeas - didn't happen (yet). Damnation, he didn't even choose his wife on his own. Jasnah had to do that for him. I'm not saying I dislike him as a character. He's great at making other characters shine, and the arcs of Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar owe him a great deal. But his own arc has been kinda empty.

That said, I could totally imagine all this being set-up for when he finally can't get away anymore and has to take responsibility. I trust Brandon as a story-teller, so I hope it will all make sense looking at it afterwards.

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The other reason is simply that it feels like exploring the ramifications if Sadeas murder one in-story year after Adolin reveals that he did it, would just feel strange to me. Like Dalinar (or someone else) waits for the readers to come back before they punish Adolin. 

Who says nothing will have happened in the meantime? Szeth is starting book four in a jail cell. I'm very interested to see how things have turned. 

[Karger]

37 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Open polls are the best thing since toasted bread. That is objective truth. 

If you say so.  However my statement still stands.  Online polls should not be relied on for actual data.

37 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

 The arcanist strikes again! I had forgotten about the WoB, so thanks for the reminder. 

I know right?  You come up with a well reasoned detailed theory and then you get Brandon WoB smashed by the god beyond themselves.  You feel like a fly that just got hit with an assault weapon.

[Toaster Retribution]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Who says nothing will have happened in the meantime? Szeth is starting book four in a jail cell. I'm very interested to see how things have turned. 

True, true. I am interested by the prospect of time skip as well. How many slippers will Mraize have managed to get his hands on? Has Amaram gained the post-mortem fans he deserves? How high is Nales wage working for Odium compared to what he had working for Honor? 

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

If you say so.  However my statement still stands.  Online polls should not be relied on for actual data.

43 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

In reality I agree with you. I was joking. Open polls are fun for informal opinion gathering though. 

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

I know right?  You come up with a well reasoned detailed theory and then you get Brandon WoB smashed by the god beyond themselves.  You feel like a fly that just got hit with an assault weapon.

It feels like I am Anakin and Cal is the High Ground.

[Solant]

Having Adolin in jail with Szeth would be an interesting call back to WoR, too

[Karger]

Just now, Solant said:

Having Adolin in jail with Szeth would be an interesting call back to WoR, too

I doubt that is going to happen.  Although I do hope he and Lift visit.

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

True, true. I am interested by the prospect of time skip as well. How many slippers will Mraize have managed to get his hands on? Has Amaram gained the post-mortem fans he deserves? How high is Nales wage working for Odium compared to what he had working for Honor? 

Slippers?

[Justi]

If Adolin will not become the King there is no point for Sadeas arc. He had to be perfect heir before and now he can return to be spoiled prince or become a normal soldier or be jailed for life. It doesn’t change anything for anyone. It is so funny after the 2nd book everybody was like “what Adolin did was wrong/right”, kinda like Phoenix’s Joker. Now all of this is forgotten and became unimportant because Sanderson neglect to write anything in OB about this. Excited for 4th book really?  

I expected big Family clash from Sadeas/Adolin/Dalinar story (Kaladin taking sides too) But this probably What Sanderson will write:

Shallan going to talk with Dalinar. Shallan going to talk with Adolin. And Dalinar accepts Adolin’s desicion in front of the Shallan. They all live happily ever after with Shallan. Ah don’t forget Shallan to have baby  

Edited November 15, 2019 by Justi

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It feels like I am Anakin and Cal is the High Ground.

But you're my favorite Cylon! 

[Toaster Retribution]

50 minutes ago, Karger said:

Slippers?

Mraize has slippers when he meets Ash in Oathbringer. I have been fascinated by this ever since. 

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But you're my favorite Cylon! 

And you are my favorite arcanist/God Beyond! We are friends!

49 minutes ago, Justi said:

Excited for 4th book really?

SA is so much more than just the Kholins and Shallan. Moash/Kaladin, the war in Alethkar, Cosmere lore, Ishar on the rise, Nale on Team Odium, the Singers revolution, Mraize and his shady stuff, more Radiants, more Unmade, Vivenna and Vasher, the Sibling, Taravangian playing all sides, Cultivation and Hoid meddling, the Heralds trying to survive, Axies & Rysn, Anaram as a Cognitive Shadow (ok, probably not, but I can hope). Thing is, even if I was displeased with the Kholins and Shallan, which Im really not, I would have had tons of cool things to look forward too.

[Elegy]

Navani has a tough job. As soon as she's in the spotlight, it's all about negotiating, or messing around with fabrials - the stuff that can be a chore to get through but will be important later on. But as soon as stuff starts going down, she's just sitting around somewhere not doing much. It's like she only gets slow scenes. That makes it hard to find her chapters rewarding.

But it's not that bad. What I mentioned above about Adolin has been bugging me mostly because Adolin is always where the action is, yet still is an oddly stagnant, relatively boring character. Navani is just side character enough for that big flaw to not stick out too much. And I actually really like her personality. She had one of my favorite WOK scenes. Although, that said, I'll never get behind how she was able to fall in love with Dalinar back when he was nothing short of barbarian and insufferable.

Regarding Sadeas, I actually think he's pretty well-written. Not one of the big ones, obviously, but some of his scenes, especially his talks with the Kholins at the time of the coalition in WOK, are really well-done.

[+Bliev]

2 hours ago, Elegy said:

Although, that said, I'll never get behind how she was able to fall in love with Dalinar back when he was nothing short of barbarian and insufferable.

To be fair, in our preview of the book 4 prologue it read less “love” and more “animal attraction”, which may be more understandable? :-D

[Eluvianii]

I wanted to vote in the poll but I really can't think of a character I dislike.

I will say though, this thread has convinced me that the post-Oathbringer division can be summarized as those who believe the gazillion plot threads in OB are just starting, and those who think they already ended.

[Aon Tia]

9 hours ago, Justi said:

And I’m a woman. I agree life is too hard for us and for female characters too. But Shallan is just a badly written character. I’m sure Sanderson agrees with me since he made so many changes on her. If he wants to portray amazing female hero please be inspired from real amazing female hero. What you did for Shallan is not working. 
 

I will have to completely disagree here with you.. I think if an author is able write about such conflicting characters that they are polarising, such as shallan or Dalinar or Moash, then that i see as a sign of good writing. It means that character portrayal is more realistic rather than the fairy tale version of a perfect damsel in distress. Irl often there are people that some like and others absolutely dislike. The very fact that shallan makes you hate her so much, that she insights such strong reaction from you,  I think, should be considered as a sign of clever writing and not PR machinery at work.  
 

what is it about shallan that irritates you so much that you would tear your copy of oathbringer?

shallan started in book 1 and I fairly liked her there. She was making mistakes huge ones, but she is supposed to. She has left her home for the first time and is supposed to be ignorant of things and bad judge of people. 
book 2 in fact she is quite likeable. I admired all the strength that she found, authority she mustered and her conversion of vathah and his gang is actually very impressive. From there on, she has done great job actually throughout including saving everyone and finding urithiru. 
I think her problems start only after she confesses the truth about her mother and from there she spirals down in OB. What I dislike reading about in her povs is actually all the Veil stuff. I find veil to be too superficial and her nighttime wonderings learning to drink alcohol and trying to be a spy are just... but whenever shallan is bring her own self I actually like those chapters better. 

[Solant]

Since its been brought up... do people really skip entire chapters of a book because a character they don't like is there? Aren't you afraid you will miss an important part? If I don't like a character, I just usually assume it's because I'm supposed to not like them, or distrust them, or be suspicious of them even if I don't know why. Then I'll read until I find it where it's going.

I couldn't stand Szeth for a long time, and he ended up being one of my favorites. It happens all the time.

But then I managed to read all 10 Thomas Covenant books, hating him the entire time, so maybe I'm just especially patient. 

[Aon Tia]

23 minutes ago, Solant said:

Since its been brought up... do people really skip entire chapters of a book because a character they don't like is there? Aren't you afraid you will miss an important part? If I don't like a character, I just usually assume it's because I'm supposed to not like them, or distrust them, or be suspicious of them even if I don't know why. Then I'll read until I find it where it's going.

If I am rereading oathbringer for the third time, I might skim through veil learning to drink in bars etc.. I am not really missing anything because I have already read the whole thing twice already.. but would not skip anything the first time I read..

[Winds Alight]

6 hours ago, Solant said:

Since its been brought up... do people really skip entire chapters of a book because a character they don't like is there? Aren't you afraid you will miss an important part? If I don't like a character, I just usually assume it's because I'm supposed to not like them, or distrust them, or be suspicious of them even if I don't know why. Then I'll read until I find it where it's going.

I did skim through some of Shallan's chapters in WoK during the middle part, namely her long conversations with Kabsal. I didn't when I reread the book almost eight years later and I was surprised because they didn't even seem so long to me this second time.

I wouldn't skip entire chapters when I read a book the first time. Especially not in a series as complex as SA.
But when I reread a book I sometimes skip entire sections, like a subplot I fond boring etc. But only when I already know what's in it.