(OB) Most Disliked Stormlight Character

[Config2]

15 hours ago, Justi said:

I voted Shallan and I find this so funny her results are with Sadeas and Amaram. When your female lead is on par with bad guys for popularity... This tells you a lot. And I’m a woman btw.
 

I never enjoyed her chapters so mostly I skipped her chapters. But in Oathbringer her story is in everywhere.I want to enjoy from what I read. I don’t want to spend my time with Sanderson’s PR tactics to make her likeable. It is so obvious. I’m sorry but I’m expecting her death spoiler for 4th book before buying the book. If she is not death I’m finished with this series. Normally I would respect writer. It is his choice afterall. But no, enough is enough. Don’t force her on us. 

I'm curious what PR tactics you perceive. Sanderson is a really great author, so I think that if he wanted to make her likeable, he could. I generally assume that he is capable of writing most things, and is actively choosing to not do certain things.

As for "forcing her" on us, that's not how content creation should work in my opinion. An author writes what he wants, and hopes that people also like it. He occasionally tailors his work to his general audience, but I don't think he would do that for a specific character unless he it was the other way (people wanted more of  someone).

If you don't like it, than you should feel free to stop reading (or continue to skip her chapters like you do already). I did that with Sansa for most of GRR.

[Karger]

39 minutes ago, Config2 said:

I did that with Sansa for most of GRR.

She was written to be a bit grating.  However it is interesting that it is mostly female characters garnering this response.

[Aon Tia]

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

 However it is interesting that it is mostly female characters garnering this response.

In asiof or Cosmere too? 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, The traveller said:

In asiof or Cosmere too? 

Both really.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Karger

[Aon Tia]

Have you read wheel of time? Egwene is another lead female character who is disliked.. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by The traveller

[Config2]

25 minutes ago, Karger said:

She was written to be a bit grating.  However it is interesting that it is mostly female characters garnering this response.

Mostly is a strong word. I think it is more often female characters, because it is a stereotype that women are grating to men. Men often have different negative traits focused on besides "annoying." Regardless, this is a failing of society, not a characteristic of society (something to work on, not to identify as fact).

There are male characters I do the same thing with. Bran in ASOIF, and the titular Martian in the Martian (book only, Matt Damon never comes off as grating) are both super annoying at times. Anakin is unwatchably annoying in the Star Wars prequels. The weird kid in the Matrix sequels is similarly annoying. 

I personally don't find any of the other female characters annoying like Sansa in ASOIF, or annoying like Shallan in Cosmere. Spensa in Skyward is great as a lead (non-cosmere), as is Siri in Warbreaker. Vivenna is also great.

[Aon Tia]

6 minutes ago, Config2 said:

personally don't find any of the other female characters annoying like Sansa in ASOIF, or annoying like Shallan in Cosmere. Spensa in Skyward is great as a lead (non-cosmere), as is Siri in Warbreaker. Vivenna is also great.

And Jasnah and lift and tyndwyl, Marasi Steris 

I really find bran annoying too and even Jon snow sometimes is too broody.. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by The traveller

[Elegy]

I would agree that there's some correlation. Story-telling conventions have it that female characters usually fall into a limited set of categories (the damsel, the femme fatale, the action girl ...), so unusual female characters tend to stick out more. It's more unusual and therefore evokes stronger reactions. Like how Lift is generally regarded as a controversial character, while Wayne is every bit as grating, silly, unpolite etc. and is not considered as such. Now mind that I'm not in any way saying that this is necessarily a reaction to be condemned as sexist or such. That's by no means my point. It's just a reaction to story-telling conventions and how they are dealt with/averted. Conventions that were shaped by a sexist industry/society, may I say, but that's another thing. But yeah, I too feel like unusual female characters seem to have more of a tough time in general. It seems like people are more critical of them, but if so, 20 more years of writers like Brandon might hopefully change that.

[Justi]

12 hours ago, Karger said:

What PR tactics is he using?  Also everything @The traveller said. 

In first two books there small but consistent work to create good image for her. In real life, some celebrities uses that. Everyday they have good articles about them. They pay news outlets money because they want their name associated with good things. Sanderson dedicated some chapters to this. “She made a desicion which shows how clever she is” or “she is helping who have need, good girl” or “how great friend she is” or “how strong she is despite to her circumstances” bla bla bla. This doesn’t bother me because I can easily skip all of it. This is Sanderson’s choice, as a author he absolutely can do it. But he had to accept, as a reader I might not want to read. Those are small things but in the 3rd book Sanderson’s two PR tactics killed all my enjoyment.

First he gave Shallan amazing excuse, so she is free of all the criticism. She have personality disorder If she does something bad, you can’t criticize her because this version is not real Shallan. If she does something amazing, you had to congratulate her because she overcome amazing difficulties. Some celebrities uses this tactic. You can’t criticize them because they have disadvantaged backrounds. If you criticize them you are Nazis.

I have problem for this because I liked Renarin’s story in first two books. He had autism, he was strange. He worked with bridge four, he wanted to be son Dalinar wants. But Shallan’s disorder completely overshadowed Renarin. Sanderson sold me Renarin story in first book. But with 3rd books he changed plot. Now Renarin’s story become Shallan’s story. As a reader this is a slap on my face. I wanted to read Kaladin/Renarin, Renarin/Dalinar/Adolin and Renarin growing. There is no room now.

2nd tactic is using “Halo Effect”. Almost every reader likes one of the Kholins, right? Dalinar, Jasnah, Adolin, Navani or Renarin. They are most liked family in the books. Now Shallan is another Kholin Family member and this will gave her positive impression.

But I hated this story too. I’m girl and I really can enjoy good “Handsome Prince” story. But eveything in OB done very quickly. No base, no anticipation, no climax. Her story with Adolin really feels flat. Laughable. End of the second book I was really curious about Dalinar and Adolin’s relationship. I liked heir apparent tension between father and son. Now I had to read “Shallan is helping Adolin with Dalinar, how cute” thing. Slap on my face again.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Justi

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, Elegy said:

Like how Lift is generally regarded as a controversial character, while Wayne is every bit as grating, silly, unpolite etc. and is not considered as such.

I think this is partially due to Mistborn discussion not being as dominating in the fandom the last couple of years. I have seen plenty of people who hates Wayne. But since SA is discussed more, the Lift criticism is more visible. 
 

I think that women in fiction are regarded as annoying and men are regarded to be whiny. This defenitely has to do with how men and women are viewed in societies in real life. I am the kind of person who only gets really frustrated if the character is a complete douche (Uthred in The Last Kingdom or Ivar in Vikings) or in my mind, overpowered and over-hyped (Jasnah is in this cathegory for me, along with Arya in the last couple of GoT seasons, where her writing is atrocious). Generally female and male characters get hate, but for different reasons. Rey, Egwene, Shallan, are all commonly disliked characters, byt so are Anakin, Thrall, Wayne, etc. Sometimes fans (often Star Wars ones) go way overboard with their dislike, but mostly I just find the resulting discussions interesting.

[Justi]

12 hours ago, The traveller said:

I don’t really like shallan either as in that she is certainly not my favourite character. But on multiple rereads I may sometimes skip or just skim through her chapters but still I think a lot of people really like her too. Besides, in order to understand her, think from her perspective, she puts a happy face over it and pretends but the truth is that her life has been one of the worst of all the Cosmere characters. She has had a very tough childhood, I can only imagine the kind of scars it leaves on an individual when they don’t feel safe in their own house. When their own mother tries to kill you, your bestfriend (spren) helps you kill your mother and your father protects you and takes the blame. The fear the guilt and trauma! And then, her father became what he became! And she ended up killing her father as well to protect her brother! And still cannot confess to her brothers that she was the reason for everything.. 

All things considered I am actually surprised at how well she manages. But I am not surprised at the troubles that she is facing with her powers. Her illusions are so realistic that she has ended up fracturing her personality even more! Each a coping mechanism!

basically, she may not be my favourite character but I find her very interesting too. Her struggles are very understandable and all in all, do not forget all the things that she achieves..

She is actually quite an incredible character..

Yes, This is result of Sanderson’s PR work. She have disadvantaged backround so we had to celebrate her every tiny little improvement. This doesn’t work for me because this is actually Renarin’s story. In first two book I celebrated his every tiny little improvement. With OB, why I had to change Renarin to Shallan? Only story I want read for Shallan in 4th book is her death, preferably direct result of Adolin and Kaladin’s actions and mistakes. I want to read their regrets. She killed all the stories I eagerly waited. I can’t find a story she is not in it. Crazy. 

[Toaster Retribution]

@Justi Renarin will be a flashback character in books 6-10. He is more of a slow burn character I think. You will see more Renarin the further the story progresses.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Toaster Retribution

[Aon Tia]

13 minutes ago, Justi said:

Yes, This is result of Sanderson’s PR work. She have disadvantaged backround so we had to celebrate her every tiny little improvement. This doesn’t work for me because this is actually Renarin’s story. In first two book I celebrated his every tiny little

But that was not my intention behind that post.. what I actually meant was that shallan is a conflicted character that has problems because she has suffered childhood traumas but people like her too because despite all that she wants to do good.. 

I would not say that it is PR work but that it is how he chose to write the story.. there is no pressure no anyone to like shallan. There are plenty of PoV characters to go around and each reader usually finds some they like and some they don’t. In main pov characters as of now, there is Dalinar kaladin and shallan. Some people dislike her some dalinar some even find kaladin whiny.. 

I think if an author wants to write about more conflicted characters rather than straight up good characters then it is bound to happen.. 

 

[Justi]

2 hours ago, Config2 said:

I'm curious what PR tactics you perceive. Sanderson is a really great author, so I think that if he wanted to make her likeable, he could. I generally assume that he is capable of writing most things, and is actively choosing to not do certain things.

As for "forcing her" on us, that's not how content creation should work in my opinion. An author writes what he wants, and hopes that people also like it. He occasionally tailors his work to his general audience, but I don't think he would do that for a specific character unless he it was the other way (people wanted more of  someone).

If you don't like it, than you should feel free to stop reading (or continue to skip her chapters like you do already). I did that with Sansa for most of GRR.

I made a post about PR tactics in this page but I don’t know how to link it. Sorry about this.  

What I see is he used every PR trick and those thing made whole story change. Whole thing become unreadable for me. 

34 minutes ago, The traveller said:

But that was not my intention behind that post.. what I actually meant was that shallan is a conflicted character that has problems because she has suffered childhood traumas but people like her too because despite all that she wants to do good.. 

I would not say that it is PR work but that it is how he chose to write the story.. there is no pressure no anyone to like shallan. There are plenty of PoV characters to go around and each reader usually finds some they like and some they don’t. In main pov characters as of now, there is Dalinar kaladin and shallan. Some people dislike her some dalinar some even find kaladin whiny.. 

I think if an author wants to write about more conflicted characters rather than straight up good characters then it is bound to happen.. 

 

Yes I agree he can choice how to present his character. And this is why I don’t mind when he overhype Shallan. But stealing Renarin’s story and Kholin marriage only come up in OB, those are big story arc changes and they are not in the plot. He should remain faithful to plot. Maybe you don’t feel pressure but I’m certainly feeling pressure. I had to love Shallan. Otherwise nothing to read for me. Which is why I’m stopping.

I hope in the future another author will be inspired by Dalinar/Kaladin/Adolin/Renarin and Jasnah. Amazing characters who deserve their stories to be told without intervention. 

[Greywatch]

Even as someone who doesn't enjoy Shallan myself, I think Karger is on the money with their suspicion that it is female characters who get this treatment, and it is a fair statement of how we read books. Listing all the female characters we do like doesn't erase the fact that it's still only female characters who get this particular reaction. Even when listing disliked male characters by comparison, the scope or the negative emotions is so huge, I feel it gets used as a "gotcha! See, it's not because she's a woman!"

Of course, I know I have a perhaps unpopular opinion that, at some point, it's on us as the readers to be aware of that; that the way the author wrote them is not 100% responsible for the way we react to them. I just notice when it's said about a female character "the author wrote them to be annoying!" but they really weren't... I have to examine myself and reconsider if the author really meant that. Annoying is subjective, otherwise everyone would find Shallan annoying! But not everyone does, and therefore, it's a reader opinion, and not a fact.

[Winds Alight]

35 minutes ago, Justi said:

But stealing Renarin’s story

What exactly got stolen?

Of course Renarin didn't have as much screentime yet but that's because Brandon likely has bigger plans for him in the back five. We know he will have one flashback book and probably will be a major player from book 6 on, on a level Kaladin or Shallan have now. His storyline is very different from Shallan's.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Aon Tia]

8 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

What exactly got stolen?

Of course Renarin didn't have as much screentime yet but that's because Brandon likely has bigger plans for him in the back five. We know he will have one flashback book and probably will be a major player from book 6 on, on a level Kaladin or Shallan have now. His storyline is very different from Shallan's.

Agreed.

[Config2]

38 minutes ago, Justi said:

I made a post about PR tactics in this page but I don’t know how to link it. Sorry about this.  

What I see is he used every PR trick and those thing made whole story change. Whole thing become unreadable for me. 

Yes I agree he can choice how to present his character. And this is why I don’t mind when he overhype Shallan. But stealing Renarin’s story and Kholin marriage only come up in OB, those are big story arc changes and they are not in the plot. He should remain faithful to plot. Maybe you don’t feel pressure but I’m certainly feeling pressure. I had to love Shallan. Otherwise nothing to read for me. Which is why I’m stopping.

I hope in the future another author will be inspired by Dalinar/Kaladin/Adolin/Renarin and Jasnah. Amazing characters who deserve their stories to be told without intervention. 

I'm not sure PR is the right word there. PR implies spin, manipulation, obfuscation.

I'm not going to tell you how to feel, but you may have tricked yourself here. You dislike Shallan because of her character. Therefore when she does something you like, or find impressive, you have the impression that Sanderson is forcing you to like her. In reality, you like her (on this issue, not necessarily in general). This isn't a PR move, this is a change in character for Shallan, or a demonstration of what she could be.

 

2 hours ago, Justi said:

In first two books there small but consistent work to create good image for her. In real life, some celebrities uses that. Everyday they have good articles about them. They pay news outlets money because they want their name associated with good things. Sanderson dedicated some chapters to this. “She made a desicion which shows how clever she is” or “she is helping who have need, good girl” or “how great friend she is” or “how strong she is despite to her circumstances” bla bla bla. This doesn’t bother me because I can easily skip all of it. This is Sanderson’s choice, as a author he absolutely can do it. But he had to accept, as a reader I might not want to read. Those are small things but in the 3rd book Sanderson’s two PR tactics killed all my enjoyment.

First he gave Shallan amazing excuse, so she is free of all the criticism. She have personality disorder If she does something bad, you can’t criticize her because this version is not real Shallan. If she does something amazing, you had to congratulate her because she overcome amazing difficulties. Some celebrities uses this tactic. You can’t criticize them because they have disadvantaged backrounds. If you criticize them you are Nazis.

I have problem for this because I liked Renarin’s story in first two books. He had autism, he was strange. He worked with bridge four, he wanted to be son Dalinar wants. But Shallan’s disorder completely overshadowed Renarin. Sanderson sold me Renarin story in first book. But with 3rd books he changed plot. Now Renarin’s story become Shallan’s story. As a reader this is a slap on my face. I wanted to read Kaladin/Renarin, Renarin/Dalinar/Adolin and Renarin growing. There is no room now.

2nd tactic is using “Halo Effect”. Almost every reader likes one of the Kholins, right? Dalinar, Jasnah, Adolin, Navani or Renarin. They are most liked family in the books. Now Shallan is another Kholin Family member and this will gave her positive impression.

But I hated this story too. I’m girl and I really can enjoy good “Handsome Prince” story. But eveything in OB done very quickly. No base, no anticipation, no climax. Her story with Adolin really feels flat. Laughable. End of the second book I was really curious about Dalinar and Adolin’s relationship. I liked heir apparent tension between father and son. Now I had to read “Shallan is helping Adolin with Dalinar, how cute” thing. Slap on my face again.

 

I have to tell you; mental illness does not give you a get out of jail free card. I'm not sure how much experience you have dealing with people who have mental illnesses, but the opposite is usually true. You get blamed for more things because you have a mental illness. Attributions of failings that people give to your illness. You aren't hated for these things, but you cannot grow beyond them. It is a horrible thing that society does.

You also fundamentally misunderstand how her disorder works. It's not that she is the "real Shallan" only when doing good things. She is always the real Shallan. All of these things are her, and she is responsible in any form for the actions of any other. It's the internal struggle between the various aspects, the decision within herself to decide what she wants, and not to switch or be subsumed that defines her. Sympathy should be extended to those with disadvantaged backgrounds, but it doesn't stretch forever, and doesn't truly excuse actions. A savvy reader or observer is able to quickly determine whether a person's background is be used, or coming to the forefront naturally. 

As someone mentioned, Renarin is a back five person. He is a side character for the moment. I would be cautious in assuming that Shallan's disorder is anything similar to Renarin's. There will, and are, differences. She hasn't stolen anything from him. What you say could be read as, "People with autism are the same as people with multiple personalities."

Having her interact and be reviewed positively by the Kholins isn't a manipulation. I haven't found any interaction between any Kholin and Shallan remotely unreasonable. They are based in the character traits of both. If you feel like any interaction is unearned by Shallan, that's your business, but I don't see any support for it. And the Kholins have been shown very publicly in book two to have not have good judgment on people. 

 

The last part I understand; lots of people dont like Shallan, and feel like OB should have had less of her. She should have given more space to Dalinar, or Kaladin, or anyone else. I wish there was less of her. That being said, much of her interaction with Adolin and the other characters made sense. It was logical that Shallan, who has ample experience dealing with expectations and internal demands, helps Adolin be who he wants to be. And ultimately, she just supports his decision; she says that he should do what he wants, that he doesnt have to be his father. But she also says he can be. She has no stake in his choice.

 

I'm not here shilling for Shallan. I am against the sort of close-minded dismissal you presented.

[Karger]

I get that she rubs you the wrong way and no character can please everyone however with characters whose are not obviously terribly written cough cough Anekan(whose name I will not even spell correctly) it is often a good idea to separate your perception of the character with who they are objectively.  For example many people like Dany but if you view her objectively you should either pity her or be scared of her destructive potential.  I am also with @Config2 I really don't like Dany(she scares me) but that does not mean that she does not deserve a cheer for her breaker of chains moment.

2 hours ago, Justi said:

She made a desicion which shows how clever she is”

Right but with Shallan the cleverness is usually temporary.  Sure she outsmarts the ghoostbloods but then they catch up to her similarly.

2 hours ago, Justi said:

she is helping who have need, good girl

This one definitely comes back to bite her.

2 hours ago, Justi said:

how great friend she is

Shallan has friends?  Did I miss something? 

2 hours ago, Justi said:

how strong she is despite to her circumstances

She is actually.  I would probably have stayed catatonic after the first event in her life. 

[Justi]

1 hour ago, Config2 said:

 

The last part I understand; lots of people dont like Shallan, and feel like OB should have had less of her. She should have given more space to Dalinar, or Kaladin, or anyone else. I wish there was less of her. That being said, much of her interaction with Adolin and the other characters made sense. It was logical that Shallan, who has ample experience dealing with expectations and internal demands, helps Adolin be who he wants to be. And ultimately, she just supports his decision; she says that he should do what he wants, that he doesnt have to be his father. But she also says he can be. She has no stake in his choice.

 

This is why I almost tear of my copy of OB. There is a phrase about books,cinema, TV: “Show, don’t tell”. I much prefer to read how Adolin is dealing with pressure or what choices he does have or how he made his desicion seperately. Instead of building story up to Adolin and Dalinar’s final meet, there is a one chapter we read everything from Shallan’s mouth. Great way to kill tension between Dalinar and Adolin. This encounter was most anticipated thing for me after 2nd book. It become so anticlimax I’m not curious about 4th book at all. Bad writing.
 

.And I’m a woman. I agree life is too hard for us and for female characters too. But Shallan is just a badly written character. I’m sure Sanderson agrees with me since he made so many changes on her. If he wants to portray amazing female hero please be inspired from real amazing female hero. What you did for Shallan is not working. 
 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Justi

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Justi said:

And I’m a woman. I agree life is too hard for us and for female characters too. But Shallan is just a badly written character. I’m sure Sanderson agrees with me since he made so many changes on her. If he wants to portray amazing female hero please be inspired from real amazing female hero. What you did for Shallan is not working. 

Considering the number of people who say Shallan is their favorite character (I'm not among them) and find her exceptionally relatable, I have to vehemently disagree. This is subjective. This doesn't work for you. 

I very much doubt Brandon agrees, because the "changes" Shallan has undergone have been a linear and progressive character arc. That's not rebranding. That's growth. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Calderis

[Elegy]

1 hour ago, Justi said:

But Shallan is just a badly written character. I’m sure Sanderson agrees with me since he made so many changes on her. If he wants to portray amazing female hero please be inspired from real amazing female hero. What you did for Shallan is not working. 

NOPE. Read this:

Quote

Questioner

Who is the fans favorite character, from your perspective, everybody that says it to you?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that Kaladin tends to be the fan favorite viewpoint character in that he is the least controversial. Meaning most people just like Kaladin even when they are annoyed with him, it's just like "I get Kaladin." Shallan is the most divisive. The people who like Shallan scenes love Shallan scenes. The people who don't like Shallan scenes, she is their least favorite character. And that's a sign that I'm doing a character right. I really like-- I ran into this too, like, in any book where you have a wide cast you are going to have this sort of thing. But yeah, I would say, if you're just going ask, "Who's your favorite character?" it's probably The Lopen. Everybody should say that. But if it's not The Lopen then it's probably usually Kaladin.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Elegy

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Even as someone who doesn't enjoy Shallan myself, I think Karger is on the money with their suspicion that it is female characters who get this treatment, and it is a fair statement of how we read books. Listing all the female characters we do like doesn't erase the fact that it's still only female characters who get this particular reaction. Even when listing disliked male characters by comparison, the scope or the negative emotions is so huge, I feel it gets used as a "gotcha! See, it's not because she's a woman!"

I see your point, but I dont necessarily agree. I think female characters get branded as annoying, and men as whiny. People dont call the female cast of Wheel of Time whiny. They are annoying. Rose Tico isnt said to be whiny, but annoying. And every main male character in classic fantasy are called whiny, but not annoying. Furthermore, I would say that the most severely hated character ever is Jar Jar Binks, who is a guy. 
 

1 hour ago, Justi said:

This encounter was most anticipated thing for me after 2nd book

I’ll give you this: Dalinar and Adolin, especially the resolution to Sadeas murder, was kinda lame. 
 

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I’ll give you this: Dalinar and Adolin, especially the resolution to Sadeas murder, was kinda lame. 

Because it's not resolved yet. 

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Because it's not resolved yet. 

Agreed we are still at the climax stage.