(OB) Most Disliked Stormlight Character

[Vissy]

Moash ofc is the prime POS in OB. 

Amaram was a highly disappointing character overall. I didn't like his scenes and I found him quite bland. 

I didn't like Lift either. I feel like she just doesn't belong in this setting. She stands out for all of the wrong reasons, she reminds me of one of those happy-go-lucky cartoon protagonists. Just in a very bland and cardboard-cut-out manner. Edgedancer portrayed her far better IMO, in OB Lift seemed to be stuck in one mode, and that was "perpetual awesome" which got really boring after the first scene. 

Also she's really powerful in an understated manner. Being able to wade through that battlefield (populated by Fused) pretty much untouched when she was shown to have trouble against an Azish guardswoman earlier? Walking right into a thick mist of the Thrill like it was nothing? It kind of feels like she was just there to solve a couple of problems for plot, e.g "how can they defeat Odium now? Don't worry, Lift is here to do the heavy lifting" (sorry xD)

It could've helped to have more about Lift's motivations in OB. Like, we know very little about her motives, and all of it through Edgedancer. And frankly you can't get a proper feel for a character if everything interesting about their motivations is not mentioned in the main piece of literature.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Vissy

[Isilel]

On 12.1.2018 at 2:53 AM, wotbibliophile said:

@The One Who Connects  I really hate Szeth. I do not want to attribute any positive characteristic to him. To be honorable sounds like a positive so I categorically refuse to attribute it to him.

 

The thing is, once Sanderson decided that Szeth was too cool to kill for good at the end of WoR, as he initially intended, his motivations got retconned. In WoK Szeth in his PoV explained why he was following the murderous orders of his masters despite his own horror, revulsion and very clear understanding that it was wrong. It wasn't because of honor. It was because he was afraid of oblivion after death that would allegedly await him if he didn't adhere to the strictures of being Truthless. He valued his own after-life, even one of eternal torment, over lives of the hundreds of people that he has killed and tens of thousands who died as a result of chaos thereby unleashed. Kaladin called him a coward during their duel in WoR and he was right. But this wasn't a good basis for redemption, so now Szeth did it all "for honor", it seems.

 

On 12.1.2018 at 7:12 AM, Solant said:

Amaram and Moash were presented as contrast to Kaladin and Dalinar, showing us how they might have turned out had they made different choices.

I kept encountering this argument in various threads and wanted to dispute it for some time, so I'll just do it here:

This isn't really true. The similarities between these characters are mostly in their external circumstances, not at their core. Due to my recent re-read, I have noticed  that Amaram was always a mess of character, who lacked any kind of internal consistency and was whatever was needed to provide Kaladin with challenges. I wrote  about it more in the recent "Amaram" thread, but what is perinent here is that Meridas never took his promises seriously even when it would have cost him nothing (see Tien), he was not particularly addicted to the Thrill compared to normal Alethi, he was a religious fanatic, though also a very hypocritical one and he was very scholarly for one of his station. In other words, nothing like Dalinar.

As to Moash, he was always very selfish and self-centered, nothing like Kaladin. All his indignation about the oppression of darkeyes was because it affected him directly. But he didn't lift a finger when he caused a beating of his good acquiantance by his refusal to speak to a captive highlord. He was angered by the dire straits of a widow with small children, but wasn't moved to help, just to feed his hatred. He also tried to kill his friends and savior, let's not forget. Yes, he helped the parshmen, but also not because he particularly cared about them as individuals, but because he wanted to maintain his illusion that singers are better than humans. Kaladin's defining characteristics are compassion, caring, loyalty to his friends. He may have gone dark, sure, but it would have played out differently.

 

On 13.1.2018 at 6:33 AM, Greywatch said:

That only makes sense if you assume that killing Eshonai and having Venli was a last-minute change. There's no evidence to suggest this, no evidence to suggest that Eshonai wasn't going to die right from the beginning.

Knowing that Szeth was originally supposed to die for good at the end of WoR, I think that it is fairly likely that Eshonai became a sacrificial lamb in his stead. Not that I don't like Venli, but I liked Eshonai more... and I find that Dalinar, Szeth and Venli all 3 being repentant mass-murderers who became the first new Radiants  is a bit too much.

[Vissy]

25 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

The thing is, once Sanderson decided that Szeth was too cool to kill for good at the end of WoR, as he initially intended, his motivations got retconned. In WoK Szeth in his PoV explained why he was following the murderous orders of his masters despite his own horror, revulsion and very clear understanding that it was wrong. It wasn't because of honor. It was because he was afraid of oblivion after death that would allegedly await him if he didn't adhere to the strictures of being Truthless. He valued his own after-life, even one of eternal torment, over lives of the hundreds of people that he has killed and tens of thousands who died as a result of chaos thereby unleashed. Kaladin called him a coward during their duel in WoR and he was right. But this wasn't a good basis for redemption, so now Szeth did it all "for honor", it seems.

 

I kept encountering this argument in various threads and wanted to dispute it for some time, so I'll just do it here:

This isn't really true. The similarities between these characters are mostly in their external circumstances, not at their core. Due to my recent re-read, I have noticed  that Amaram was always a mess of character, who lacked any kind of internal consistency and was whatever was needed to provide Kaladin with challenges. I wrote  about it more in the recent "Amaram" thread, but what is perinent here is that Meridas never took his promises seriously even when it would have cost him nothing (see Tien), he was not particularly addicted to the Thrill compared to normal Alethi, he was a religious fanatic, though also a very hypocritical one and he was very scholarly for one of his station. In other words, nothing like Dalinar.

As to Moash, he was always very selfish and self-centered, nothing like Kaladin. All his indignation about the oppression of darkeyes was because it affected him directly. But he didn't lift a finger when he caused a beating of his good acquiantance by his refusal to speak to a captive highlord. He was angered by the dire straits of a widow with small children, but wasn't moved to help, just to feed his hatred. He also tried to kill his friends and savior, let's not forget. Yes, he helped the parshmen, but also not because he particularly cared about them as individuals, but because he wanted to maintain his illusion that singers are better than humans. Kaladin's defining characteristics are compassion, caring, loyalty to his friends. He may have gone dark, sure, but it would have played out differently.

 

Knowing that Szeth was originally supposed to die for good at the end of WoR, I think that it is fairly likely that Eshonai became a sacrificial lamb in his stead. Not that I don't like Venli, but I liked Eshonai more... and I find that Dalinar, Szeth and Venli all 3 being repentant mass-murderers who became the first new Radiants  is a bit too much.

I pretty much agree 100% with this! Especially your thoughts on Moash and Amaram. I never felt like they were actual people, more like scary monoliths (or, in Moash's case, an even edgier teen) with motivations that seemed to shift from book to book without much coherence.

[wotbibliophile]

@Isilel  Bless you. Well said.

 

I loved Eshonai. I will continue to image she makes a comeback until the 10th book proves me wrong.

[Greywatch]

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

Knowing that Szeth was originally supposed to die for good at the end of WoR, I think that it is fairly likely that Eshonai became a sacrificial lamb in his stead. Not that I don't like Venli, but I liked Eshonai more... and I find that Dalinar, Szeth and Venli all 3 being repentant mass-murderers who became the first new Radiants  is a bit too much.

I strongly doubt it. Venli is now the only Listener/parsh who can pass for a Singer, a Listener KR who can spy on the enemy - a plot point that Eshonai couldn't have had, as the Fused/spren on that side knew that Eshonai wasn't going to stay with them. Venli, on the other hand, was only kept safe from being Fused because of her prominence and deeds in WoR, terrible as they were. 

[maxal]

My most disliked character is Moash.

By most disliked I imply "character I rather I did not have to read about", hence it isn't just I despise Moash's actions, I do not want to read his viewpoints. Worst, I do not think they had sufficiently to the story for him to deserve having them. He isn't a sympathetic character, he isn't providing an interesting viewpoint I felt we needed to have and I now fear for "yet another" redemption. The only purpose I have seen from Moash's viewpoint was to have an insight view of how the Fused were running the people, but I would have rather Brandon used Sah, a sympathetic and tragic character, to do this instead of Moash.

I  tend to agree with @Isilel on the matter of Moash thought I'll admit I read him as Kaladin 2.0. His first viewpoints were so much like Kaladin's, or at the very least, very reminiscent, I wondered why I was reading them. Even prior to him really turning bad, I still did not get why I was reading Moash. At first, when I heard Moash would have an increased role, I thought he would join the Diagram and provide an inside viewpoint on this group which was, IMHO, interesting. Him teaching a bunch of Parshendis how to fight just to convince himself the Fused are better than humans in a mimic of Kaladin with Bridge 4 was not, still IMHO, interesting.

My thought are the essence of Moash was well resumed into @Isilel's post: he is a self-centered man who's only angry over the system because it affects him, he cares for nothing about others. I had forgotten over him allowing his old caravan leader to get beaten down because he wouldn't speak to a Highlord. 

My take on Amaram is he was more or less wasted as a character: he had a lot more potential than what his story arc amounted to. He was complex and interesting.

I saw some people argue against Dalinar: I am not his greatest fan. I have a hard time accepting this man is allowed to redeem himself. I also have a hard time with Szeth redeeming himself: it seems to me the story might have been better had he died. I liked Venlin in OB, I enjoyed reading her character, but I am not sold on books 4-5 which are supposed to focus on new characters. I don't mind Eshonai died: I thought it was a nice twist because no one saw it coming.

[Varenus]

Preface: I'm going to stick my neck out and actually defend Moash. Not as a person (he is reprehensible and worthy of scorn), but as a character in a narrative. We are all entitled to our opinions, though mine might be an unpopular one, so feel free to disagree or agree with a clear conscience.  

So here we go:

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Him teaching a bunch of Parshendis how to fight just to convince himself the Fused are better than humans

1) This is factually incorrect, I believe that Moash teaches the Parsh how to fight after Lady Leshwi tells him why they(The Fused) fight. This goes over the readers' head the first time because we didn't know the truth about the Recreance then. So I see why that would be forgettable, but Moash was already convinced before any training took place. 

2) Also, this is out of context. Its like saying that Shallan is a good artist, but without discussing how/why she learned or what she does with them. Yeah, Moash trained those Parsh after he was convinced that the Fused were right, the events leading up to that revelation took place, and given an attempt to exact vengeance on the king in the form of storming Kholinar. He wasn't doing it just to be like Kaladin or because he needed to be 100% sure he was on the Fuseds' side, he was motivated for selfish reasons not out of the kindness of his heart like Kaladin. Also, there were plenty more exciting parts of his story that diverged from Kaladin-like moments.

4 hours ago, maxal said:

My thought are the essence of Moash was well resumed into @Isilel's post: he is a self-centered man who's only angry over the system because it affects him, he cares for nothing about others. I had forgotten over him allowing his old caravan leader to get beaten down because he wouldn't speak to a Highlord.

I agree with this and @Isabel's analysis. I think that Moash is all those things, but character flaws do not necessarily make a character who is flawed in a narrative sense. Also, I think that what people are saying about Moash/Kaladin and Amaram/Dalinar is that they are indeed different internally(as you said), but they are put in similar circumstances(thus the comparisons). I honestly don't see why that is a problem though, it's a common literary device and an appropriate one given the significance of symmetry on Roshar. So I don't see Moash's and Kaladin's stories mirroring each other as negative, but as a positive.   

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Even prior to him really turning bad

Moash was only ever "good" in association to Kaladin and Bridge Four, he was never a good person on his own. Even while he was with them, he never acted with any great sense of honor or even morals. The only things he ever talked about was revenge and power. He was, not to put too fine a point on it, odious the whole time. Remember when he said that he would gladly switch places with the lighteyes and have them be the slaves instead? That was in WoK I believe, Moash didn't just decide that he had a problem with how things were run. He did however just realize that the voidbringers were not as bad as he was lead to believe, which was a common theme in OB. Really, his switch was more believable than Nale's, who apparently forgot all about the events of Edgedancer, his interaction with Lift, and the last 4500+ years of Rosharan history.

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Worst, I do not think they had sufficiently to the story for him to deserve having them.

This is strange, but I have all ways considered it the other way around. A hero's or villain's story should not start after they are considered worthy, it should start when they are normal(or worse than normal). Otherwise there can be no growth or development. The journey they go through and the lessons they learn(or don't) are what make them worthy. Remember that Moash is just getting his first PoV's now, he hasn't had the chance to develop into a full antagonist yet. He just got his powers at the end of the book.

4 hours ago, maxal said:

he isn't providing an interesting viewpoint [...] but I would have rather Brandon used Sah, a sympathetic and tragic character, to do this instead of Moash.

Why must all our PoV's be from "moral" people? I find that not only bland, but unrealistic. We are talking about a story where our dark god is called Odium/Passion. I don't want a story full of Kaladins and Dalinars(though I like them both). I want PoV's from both sides to get a deeper story, one that is not single dimensional(not to imply that Kaladin/Dalinar is single dimensional). His viewpoint is simply that of an antagonist's, the enemy's, I didn't need nor expect to be taught the secrets of the Cosmere by Moash(though he teases us with that dagger). I just want him to show the complimenting motif, the counter to our Radiants. The one other person who's PoV's would have fit was Venli's, but she is just like the rest of our Radiants now.

Honestly, Moash is somewhat sympathetic. Just and wholesome ideas are relatable within reason, but so are ones of hatred and revenge to some extent. Especially when those emotions are justified, Moash hasn't really lived a happy life(though some of that was admittedly his own doing). I would expect someone with his past to be bitter. If someone with his background and personality didn't turn to Odium, I don't know what it would take for someone to do so. And he does miss Bridge Four and Kaladin and regret what his hatred made him do(kind of), so he has some internal conflict and some variance in his inner dialog.

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

or, in Moash's case, an even edgier teen

Well, generally speaking, most edgy teens aren't born under an oppressive lighteyed regime, have their parents die in unlawful prison, and be sent to die as cannon fodder. Also, who is the original edgy teen you are comparing Moash to for him to be an even edgier teen? Kylo Ren?  

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

with motivations that seemed to shift from book to book without much coherence.

1) Moash wants to kill the king in WoR, does so in OB

2) Moash wants to overthrow the lighteyes/become a lighteyes in WoK, does so in WoR and joins the Fused in OB

Seems to fit to me.

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I now fear for "yet another" redemption.

I don't think it will happen, but...just...please no.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Varenus

[maxal]

18 hours ago, Varenus said:

1) This is factually incorrect, I believe that Moash teaches the Parsh how to fight after Lady Leshwi tells him why they(The Fused) fight. This goes over the readers' head the first time because we didn't know the truth about the Recreance then. So I see why that would be forgettable, but Moash was already convinced before any training took place. 

2) Also, this is out of context. Its like saying that Shallan is a good artist, but without discussing how/why she learned or what she does with them. Yeah, Moash trained those Parsh after he was convinced that the Fused were right, the events leading up to that revelation took place, and given an attempt to exact vengeance on the king in the form of storming Kholinar. He wasn't doing it just to be like Kaladin or because he needed to be 100% sure he was on the Fuseds' side, he was motivated for selfish reasons not out of the kindness of his heart like Kaladin. Also, there were plenty more exciting parts of his story that diverged from Kaladin-like moments.

I think this is a very good analysis of Moash's character. I certainly never got he might have trained the Parshendis in a selfish attempt to help himself extract vengeance. I'll admit, at the time, I was so uninterested in reading Moash and so discouraged he read so much like Kaladin, I did not pay much attention to his motivations.

I however agree Moash was never motivated as kindness or a strong need to protect such as Kaladin, but I'll admit it did read this way within the narrative.

18 hours ago, Varenus said:

I agree with this and @Isabel's analysis. I think that Moash is all those things, but character flaws do not necessarily make a character who is flawed in a narrative sense. Also, I think that what people are saying about Moash/Kaladin and Amaram/Dalinar is that they are indeed different internally(as you said), but they are put in similar circumstances(thus the comparisons). I honestly don't see why that is a problem though, it's a common literary device and an appropriate one given the significance of symmetry on Roshar. So I don't see Moash's and Kaladin's stories mirroring each other as negative, but as a positive.   

It is @Isilel  I have no idea who Isabel is  

The reason I find Moash flawed, in a narrative sense, is purely personal. I did not enjoy reading him. I did not enjoy reading his viewpoints. I don't mind the occasional interlude or sporadic viewpoint from a minor character (usually, unless too much of the story turns out being those), but Moash is just not a viewpoint of importance I wanted to add to an already filled narrative. 

In the essence of this thread, which is to speak of characters we dislike, I do dislike Moash. I wish the narrative had done without him and my perspective is it could have. Of course, others will think differently.

18 hours ago, Varenus said:

Moash was only ever "good" in association to Kaladin and Bridge Four, he was never a good person on his own. Even while he was with them, he never acted with any great sense of honor or even morals. The only things he ever talked about was revenge and power. He was, not to put too fine a point on it, odious the whole time. Remember when he said that he would gladly switch places with the lighteyes and have them be the slaves instead? That was in WoK I believe, Moash didn't just decide that he had a problem with how things were run. He did however just realize that the voidbringers were not as bad as he was lead to believe, which was a common theme in OB. Really, his switch was more believable than Nale's, who apparently forgot all about the events of Edgedancer, his interaction with Lift, and the last 4500+ years of Rosharan history.

This is an interesting analysis. After reading OB, I think it is indeed possible to go back to WoK/WoR and pin point all of the narrative elements highlighting how Moash never was a good person. I recall I once wrote how odd I found all the brigdemen turned being "good persons" and "victims". The story did tell us one did not usually make a slave out of man for no reasons: the man needed to have commit a crime. Sure, some of those crimes weren't really crimes such as owning money, but they ought to have been those whom were guilty of murder and vile actions. I have always been baffled, within a thousand men, there were none whom did commit awful crimes.

I guess now we have Moash, but one out of a thousand seems... low.

As for the Voidbringers, I thought most of his enthusiasm was caused by them not treating the lighteyes any differently and putting them to work too... Or did I read this wrong?

I actually believe in Nale's conversion. I yearns to follow the absolute law and, upon finding out the Parshendis were here first and humans actually are the invaders, he switch his gun from one shoulder to the next claiming their claims are ultimately "more right" than human's claims. This is how I read it anyway.

18 hours ago, Varenus said:

This is strange, but I have all ways considered it the other way around. A hero's or villain's story should not start after they are considered worthy, it should start when they are normal(or worse than normal). Otherwise there can be no growth or development. The journey they go through and the lessons they learn(or don't) are what make them worthy. Remember that Moash is just getting his first PoV's now, he hasn't had the chance to develop into a full antagonist yet. He just got his powers at the end of the book.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't usually enjoy villains POV unless they have a redeeming side I would find sympathetic. Moash has none of it, hence I disliked reading him. I however agree about needing to read character starting from "normal" and evolving. This being said, I don't find we have many of those as each of our characters started up as "Radiants". 

18 hours ago, Varenus said:

Why must all our PoV's be from "moral" people? I find that not only bland, but unrealistic. We are talking about a story where our dark god is called Odium/Passion. I don't want a story full of Kaladins and Dalinars(though I like them both). I want PoV's from both sides to get a deeper story, one that is not single dimensional(not to imply that Kaladin/Dalinar is single dimensional). His viewpoint is simply that of an antagonist's, the enemy's, I didn't need nor expect to be taught the secrets of the Cosmere by Moash(though he teases us with that dagger). I just want him to show the complimenting motif, the counter to our Radiants. The one other person who's PoV's would have fit was Venli's, but she is just like the rest of our Radiants now.

Honestly, Moash is somewhat sympathetic. Just and wholesome ideas are relatable within reason, but so are ones of hatred and revenge to some extent. Especially when those emotions are justified, Moash hasn't really lived a happy life(though some of that was admittedly his own doing). I would expect someone with his past to be bitter. If someone with his background and personality didn't turn to Odium, I don't know what it would take for someone to do so. And he does miss Bridge Four and Kaladin and regret what his hatred made him do(kind of), so he has some internal conflict and some variance in his inner dialog.

Do they all need to be moral? Of course not, but I prefer when they are sympathetic, when I can connect with them on one aspect or another. Arguably it is harder to do with an antagonist than with a protagonist, but I really felt Moash was not the most interesting antagonist to push forward and to develop. I was all for Amaram taking up this role or Taravangian, but Moash? Really? Even if I try very hard, I can't feel sorry for him.

Hence it isn't I disagree with an antagonist having viewpoints, I disagree with the choice of Moash.

Arguably, Venli was one unexpected redemption. I actually liked her story arc.

The fact Moash might have had hardships in his life does not excuse how he chose to nurture his hatred. Everyone has bumps, what you do with them is what makes or breaks you. I do agree if Moash doesn't turn to Odium, then who will?

[WalterWhiteVevo]

I personally dislike characters not for their actions, but how much they interest me. I love Taravangian and Moash as characters, not because I agree with them as people, but because I find their motives and personalities unique and interesting. That being said, I've always disliked Adolin because IMO he comes off as somewhat cliche and vanilla compared to many other characters in the series.

[The One Who Connects]

49 minutes ago, maxal said:

I can only speak for myself, but I don't usually enjoy villains POV unless they have a redeeming side I would find sympathetic.

I suppose "to each their own," but you can feel sympathy for a character without them having a "redeeming side," as you put it. People have penned some pretty twisted individuals that we still feel sorry for, thanks to a tragic backstory or someone tricking them into doing what they did. We feel sympathy for the tragic stories, even if they became a villain through and though by the end, because of that "what-if?"

---

This isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand(and it got a little text heavy), so I'll put this in a spoiler tag. It's on the subject of villains and redemption.

Spoiler

One of the more interesting villains I've seen recently(although recent is relative now, it's been a while) was a character that wasn't redeemed. They had several of the hallmarks: the tragic backstory, unstable by nature but "evil" by manipulation, recently deceased (brother, friend, etc..) who helped them cope, protagonist who wanted to redeem them, etc..

The primary thing they were missing was a willingness to be redeemed. And that's what made it interesting to me, because the dynamic was altered.

Unless it's a clear "good vs evil fairy-tale," we as readers go through stories expecting a redemption or two. Once some of those hallmarks(like the manipulated person) show up, they make us want a redemption for the tragic character who "didn't deserve what happened to them." Then the protagonist learns the tragic truth and wants to redeem them too, and we start planning it out in our heads, building that perfect happy ending. Sure the book won't end the exact same way, but we've already gone to that happy future after it ends. The villain resists, thinking they don't deserve to be redeemed, and we prep for that big heroic speech.

Sounds pretty familiar, right? Our hero delivers that speech and convinces the villain that everyone deserves a second chance, and they all go home. But what if they don't?

The best way to make a tragic character more tragic is for them to deserve redemption and not get it. You feel sadness for a soul working towards changing who gets snuffed out too soon to change, but not too much else. But that's tragedy for the sake of tragedy. The real range of emotions are when they can't be redeemed. The hero tries, and tries, and ultimately fails. (Take any big emotional redemption you've read/watched, and imagine that it failed. That perfectly redeemable character, that redemption just... didn't work out. The hero understands killing irredeemable evil, but not like this, not when everything should work.) The hero is forced to be the one snuffing out that soul instead of redeeming it. They realize that they failed, even when they succeeded. The emotional impact hits you just as hard as it hits the protagonist.

We don't get enough of that, and it makes for a much more interesting read in my opinion.

Anyone can see why it's only semi-relevant, but thoughts spill out of me whenever they want, and writing it out is better than forgetting them.

[Isilel]

On 16.1.2018 at 8:23 AM, Varenus said:

 This is factually incorrect, I believe that Moash teaches the Parsh how to fight after Lady Leshwi tells him why they(The Fused) fight.

 

Ah, I have missed this detail. This confirms that Moash didn't really care about the parshmen group that Kal had landed in trouble even more. He got involved with them initially so that he could maintain his conviction of human inferiority, though - i.e. "don't become like us". 

On 16.1.2018 at 8:23 AM, Varenus said:

 he was motivated for selfish reasons not out of the kindness of his heart like Kaladin. Also, there were plenty more exciting parts of his story that diverged from Kaladin-like moments.

Very much so. He wasn't really like Kaladin at all, even before bad stuff started to happen to him. For instance, he revealed in his PoV that he always was an "angry young man" who didn't feel like he fit anywhere and whom people in general didn't like, including other darkeyes. And yes, there is superficial similarity to Kaladin while still living in Hearthstone, but the thing is, Lirin's family social situation in Hearthstone _was_ unique, which led to Kal's alienation, while there were plenty of  second- and first-nahn darkeyes in Kholinar, so Moash's was caused by his personality, rather than anything else. Yet again, all the commonalities between the 2 are external, so I really don't get the often repeated sentiment that Kaladin could have ended up just like Moash, if he hadn't overcome his vengefulness.

On 16.1.2018 at 8:23 AM, Varenus said:

Moash was only ever "good" in association to Kaladin and Bridge Four, he was never a good person on his own. Even while he was with them, he never acted with any great sense of honor or even morals. The only things he ever talked about was revenge and power. He was, not to put too fine a point on it, odious the whole time.

Very much so. Not to mention that even with his revenge, he unexplicably fixated on a person only tangentially and unknowingly involved in death of his grandparents, rather than on the real culprit. I mean, what happened, however tragic, is something that could have happened in some modern western countries, if a judge/prosecution were a bit too cozy with the law enforcement. In fact, worse things happen sometimes, but does it mean that offcials responsible deserve to be killed? I guess that  Elhokar was a convenient target because he was the symbol of everything Moash hated and because the opportunity was there, whereas it would have taken work and effort to find out what really happened and get to Roshone. I would have had more sympathy in the latter case.

But all of this is why I don't find Moash to be an interesting option for a future prominent villain. He certainly demonstrates how Odium gets to normal people and I, for one, enjoyed the view into how the Fused operate and their plans for Alethkar that he provided, but I have no interest in him personally and would absolutely hate it if he got any kind of redemption arc. As an aside, the Fused should start killing humans en masse soon, given impending shortage of food caused by the Everstorm's destruction and general chaos, as well their own goal to "destroy all humans". But given their MO so far, it will be done in a very orderly fashion and as unobtrusively as possible, so as not to inspire resistance, and starting with the "useless mouths". Will Moash be involved with this, I wonder?

On 16.1.2018 at 8:23 AM, Varenus said:

 A hero's or villain's story should not start after they are considered worthy, it should start when they are normal(or worse than normal). Otherwise there can be no growth or development. The journey they go through and the lessons they learn(or don't) are what make them worthy. Remember that Moash is just getting his first PoV's now, he hasn't had the chance to develop into a full antagonist yet. He just got his powers at the end of the book.

Right, but my problem is that an enjoyable major fictional villain for me, needs to have some qualities that I admire, intrigue me in some way and/or evoke a certain sympathy. This has nothing to do with potential redemption - irredeemable villains can be fully as interesting and, in fact, I feel that Sanderson needs to ease on redemption in SA a bit, lest it become meaningless. Moash fails on those counts, though, which is why I am viewing his build-up into a prominent antagonist with dismay.

Moash is a consistent character, but I am really not wishing for for more from him than an occasional window into the Fused and their occupation of Alethkar.

For all that Amaram was an inconsistent mess of a character, he had more potential to develop into an worthy antagonist, as his personality appeared to have more facets and he had some very intriguing connections. Particularly since he could have been a Vorin fanatic, whose goals partly overlapped with those of the protagonists, instead of yet another odiumite, whose motivations weren't sufficiently distinct from  Aesudan's and Moash's and whose fall was depicted in a very perfunctory manner, even though it had potential to be a dramatic "loss of faith" kind of thing.

[Ymawgat]

On 16/01/2018 at 0:03 AM, Greywatch said:

I strongly doubt it. Venli is now the only Listener/parsh who can pass for a Singer, a Listener KR who can spy on the enemy - a plot point that Eshonai couldn't have had, as the Fused/spren on that side knew that Eshonai wasn't going to stay with them. Venli, on the other hand, was only kept safe from being Fused because of her prominence and deeds in WoR, terrible as they were. 

There's no reason that both Eshonai and Venli couldn't have become radiants or at least just been alive and on the good side.

Venli having a redemption arc without becoming a radiant actually makes more sense that for her character, seeing that seeking redemption purely to become a surgebinder is something it's very easy to see Venli doing.

[Toaster Retribution]

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

For all that Amaram was an inconsistent mess of a character

I don´t really agree with this sentiment. Amaram suffers from too little on-screen development, which is why he seems bland, or in this case, inconsistent. But his goal in WoK is basically bringing the Heralds back through causing a Desolation, and gather the power necessary to beat the Voidbringers that will come with aforementioned Desolation. In WoR, his goal is the exact same one. In OB, it starts that way, but he finally breaks from his own guilt (and the hate he receives from others). he joins Odium when he learns that his religion, which his goals were built upon, was a lie. In order to escape the guilt (and to gain power/glory, which he has always wanted as well), he joins Odium. This isn´t really inconsistent, but can be seen that way because of bad on-screen development. Had Brandon added a little Amaram POV to the book (I think that one scene of him realizing the truth about Vorin faith and breaking down would be enough, actually), it would have been so much better. I like the idea Brandon had for Amaram in this book, but the execution was kinda bad (unusual for Brandon, but I guess it happens to everyone). Personally, I say he could have cut one of the Bridge Four/Moash chapters, or shortened some of Shallans or Kaladins bits to add in an Amaram scene or two. In the end, I think Amaram, and the book, would have been stronger for it.

[Greywatch]

4 hours ago, Ymawgat said:

There's no reason that both Eshonai and Venli couldn't have become radiants or at least just been alive and on the good side.

Venli having a redemption arc without becoming a radiant actually makes more sense that for her character, seeing that seeking redemption purely to become a surgebinder is something it's very easy to see Venli doing.

I would argue that Venli couldn't and wouldn't have ever become a radiant without the loss of Eshonai. You don't have to agree, but it seemed to me that Venli might've still been on board with everything that happened if it weren't for losing Eshonai.

[Ymawgat]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I would argue that Venli couldn't and wouldn't have ever become a radiant without the loss of Eshonai. You don't have to agree, but it seemed to me that Venli might've still been on board with everything that happened if it weren't for losing Eshonai.

1: Venli could have been led to believe that Eshonai was dead when she wasn't, Eshonai could have had povs throughout OB as a cognitive shadow. However you spin it Eshonai didn't need to be perma-killed in order for Venli to have a redemption arc.

2: Venli lost Damid too, along with everyone she'd ever known. Yes Eshonai was her conscience, but Venli would have still had grief, and therefore would have still had a reason to be unhappy with Odium and the fused.

[Quickbronze]

Did not expect Moash to win this one

[Kobold King]

On 1/11/2018 at 8:12 PM, Solant said:

Adolins choice to murder Sadeas was completely justified, if only based on the events at the Tower. I mean the man plotted the murder of his army, his friends, his father and himself, and basically promised to continue causing even more trouble. I can't fault his lack of remorse.

 

Arbitrary vigilantism is a problem, but the thing you have to remember about Roshar is that there is no form of justice for people like Sadeas. Torul Sadeas would never stand on trial. Torul Sadeas would never be held accountable for his crimes. Torul Sadeas would never even be prohibited from killing and otherwise causing more deaths with his power hungry shenanigans.

Roshar is not our world. Roshar is a cold, merciless, kill-or-be-killed sort of place. Vigilantism is to be avoided because it's better to let everyone have a fair trial, but in a world where a fair trial is never going to happen and the man in front of you is 100% dedicated to making the apocalypse even worse, killing him is your only decent option. It'd be one thing if he were an innocent, but Sadeas reveled in the backstabbing, kill-or-be-killed world he found himself in. He only had his own game thrown back in his face.

...or... eye, to be precise.

[Starrisa]

Honestly, I find Lift simply irritating... I get that she's young but her constant denial just makes her seem rude... :/ I'm one of those who really like Adolin AHAHA (btw I don't get why Shallan is on this list.......) 

She's one of my favourite characters because I find her complex I guess? Liesprens  er, Cryptics are very interesting and the Order of Lightweavers are very interesting :)) 

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, Starrisa said:

Honestly, I find Lift simply irritating... I get that she's young but her constant denial just makes her seem rude... :/ I'm one of those who really like Adolin AHAHA (btw I don't get why Shallan is on this list.......) 

She's one of my favourite characters because I find her complex I guess? Liesprens  er, Cryptics are very interesting and the Order of Lightweavers are very interesting :)) 

Welcome to the forums! Hope to see you around :-)

I agree with you regarding Lift. She is annoying at times and her jokes dont really work for me. I look forward to her adult arc though. 

As for Shallan, I think a lot of folks were frustrated with her arc in OB, feeling that it was drawn out and without a proper ending. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Toaster Retribution

[bxcnch]

I am actually impressed with how OB turned characters I hated into characters I like. If you had asked me what my least favourite characters are, a few years ago I would have said Nale and Szeth, both of which I actually like now. Szeth in particular has lost the annoying and unjustified self-pity that made me hate him in WoR. Elhokar I liked even in WoR and he only became better in OB. I never really liked Jasnah, but even her few scenes in OB made me like her a bit more. Dalinar stopped being "kind of boring" and became probably my favourite character.

Shallan was probably the worst character in OB, but overall I still like her a lot. I am a little annoyed that Pattern didn't really get a lot of "screen time", because I thought that he was a major factor in making Shallan interesting. Also her Ghostblood-arc, her Hellaran-Kaladin-arc and so on all remained stuck in narrative limbo. Apart from her, Odium was a little disappointing because of his sheer ineffectiveness. And because in terms of personality, he is just a dishonest, condescending psychopath. Ruin at least had unique motivations and in some way he sometimes even seemed to be honestly friendly to Vin. I always wanted to see him fail and I guess he wasn't a very complex character, but as a villain, I almost kind of liked Ruin. Odium, however, is just... evil. Period. After all the hype that was a little unsatisfying. 

[Gilphon]

Y'know, really Kaladin has been the character who most consistently annoys me- I found his WoK chapters were just kind of consistently more monotonous and less interesting than Shallan's or Dalinar's, and I spent a good portion of WoR furious at him; screwing up the only shot they had at legally getting rid of Sadeas was particularly awful of him. He does have good moments at the end of both books, though, and worked just fine all through OB. I can't really think of anyone who bothered me in a significant way in OB

[Thorn]

This is interesting.  Perhaps I've enjoyed the books so much, I've missed some of the "hate" that some have for the way some of the characters were written, even more recently.  

I can see how Adolin might come off as fake, but I didn't pick up the lack of sincerity.  I actually appreciate Adolin's bravery/accomplishing with less despite his lack of powers that others around him are gaining, inc his younger brother.  If anything, the lack of power becoming of an issue is interesting that it hasn't been touched upon much.  His pursuit of being the best swordsman/warrior is quickly outdone by a flying farm boy and a siezuring brother.  

I'm also not sold on Shallan having a poor OB arc.  I think that's more of expectations from individual readers (which we're all entitled too).  As OB is Dalinar's arc primarily, I don't expect to see Kaladin or Shallan's arcs becoming solidified until maybe book 5.  And even then, it may not fully resolve their internal struggles.  I also appreciate that Shallan gives us a good bit of time with Wit and if for nothing else, that makes me happy.  Cause we can always use more Wit.  

Jasnah is probably the only frustrating character to me at this point.  Her highly educated self is fairly arrogant and lacks the humility to realize she doesn't know much of anything, despite having much of the world expanded for her in OB.   

For Venli, I just don't relate to her yet, but maybe that'll change down the road.  

Moash, Taravangian, and Odium are all great forms of evil and antagonists worthy of an epic series to me.  Although, I do personally hate anyone that bleeds people out just for deathrattles.  

[Duke of Lizards]

Just wanted to pop in and say that I voted "other" (Ialai is my least fave.)  I looked at the above list and felt so many feelings.  There are a few characters that are detestable (Amaram, Moash, and Sadeus come to mind...but I don't hate them because they are still very interesting to read.  Honestly, Shallan is probably my least favorite on the list to read right now and it's because I'm having a hard time with her mental struggles.  I just don't like the way she handled things in the last book, but also see why she did the things she did.  I certainly don't hate her, but I really just don't love reading her POV's like I did in WoR.  Just my two cents. 

[Duke of Lizards]

I also just want to add that I think it is a sign of good writing that even the detestable characters are still exciting to read.  Love me some Sanderson. 

And lay off Adolin.  He's adorable.  And simple.  And should not have gotten the gir----I digress.  

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Thorn said:

Jasnah is probably the only frustrating character to me at this point.  Her highly educated self is fairly arrogant and lacks the humility to realize she doesn't know much of anything, despite having much of the world expanded for her in OB.   

Now she can totally not work for you. I respect your opinion. The only reason why I am commenting is the rest of your post was responding to other people's feelings for certain characters that you disagree with. So as I disagree with your thoughts regarding Jasnah, I thought I would mention a thread I authored where I examine Jasnah. Would you be willing to give it a shot?