Toaster Retribution

(OB) Most Disliked Stormlight Character

Who is the most disliked?   308 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your least favorite?

    • Sadeas
      54
    • Amaram
      56
    • Moash/Vyre
      101
    • Roshone
      29
    • Elhokar
      7
    • Shallan Davar
      44
    • Other
      41
    • Lift
      19
    • Taravangian
      10
    • Adolin
      12

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255 posts in this topic

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I think where we disagree is you see the return of the church as a holy mission of saving souls, while I see it as a power play.

I didn't look at the reason, only the statement of fact. Chances are it varies from member to member (some believe its about saving souls, some see it as a way to maintain or grow power), and I'd be willing to believe that it is a power play for Amaram.

 

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Which is why I believe the Sons of Honor are reprehensible. They are operating on incomplete and false information to bring about a desolation which will cause untold loss of life, in order to regain global control. 

Partially agreed. We cannot say if all members of the society are performing a power play, or only some. I agree that Amaram, based on your argument, is more in the power camp than the saving souls camp. Those may be one and the same for his mind however, making it hard to judge his true motivation. 

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I feel I already replied to all of this with Toaster. I will copy paste it below and I guess we agree to disagree?

I think you addressed your view, I was adding a counterpoint I felt Toaster hadn't made. I will note that we aren't entirely in disagreement. 

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Except any darkeyes that takes up a shardblade would become a lighteyes and be a hero. he did not say any lighteyes, he said it had to be him

That is true. My statement wasn't perfectly clear; he is correct that his manufactured personality of the perfect light eyed general killing a shardbearer is proof of a divine right to rule. That is more effective at supporting the current Vorin system than a Dark-eyes becoming elevated to a lighteyes. I think a part, not the whole, of his decision is based off of this logic, rather than shear desire to obtain the shards (or be seen obtaining the shards). It doesn't have to be one or the other.

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Again biased or not, colored or not, Jasnah was right. Three instances of him doing exactly what she says he would do. 

No disagreement from me. Extrapolating her comments into a general truth is what is what I was commenting on. Which you probably aren't doing yourself.

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I agree. 

As do I. I think that something that angered her like that is not an indicator of a morally correct character.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:
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It is definitely possible, probably even likely, that the ultimate conclusion you draw is true; his final turn from Honor to Odium and betrayal of Dalinar is based mostly in his failure to be the hero to people. He turns to Odium to escape the knowledge that he has failed to become the savior of Alethkar, and the guilt over the things he did to achieve that goal, rather than the betrayal of Vorinism. I'm in that camp at least. I do think there may have been another path for him.

Sorry that is not what I said. I said his reason for jumping ship with Odium is because finding out the heralds lied shatters the delusion he created. Where he is the paragon returning the vorin church to power. Since the heralds lied, then everything he did was wrong, like throwing that tomato at that evil person's house. When he found out the evil person was a good person, there is no way to repair his image. No one he can remove, or change the fact that he was wrong and now looks bad. So then he takes the first out he can, that again can restore that self delusion. In this case turning to a different group who does look at that old man as evil, thereby lauding him as good and wonderful again. He is not in the wrong, it was the group of people who are wrong. He is still wonderful and honorable and a paragon. Self delusion maintained. 

Some of the difference is semantics. Namely the first part; he thinks he is a hero, the betrayal of Vorinism shatters that image. Its the not the betrayal, but how the betrayal makes him look.  I'm sorry I paraphrased you poorly in that regard.

I suppose the point I didn't pick up was the reason for his switch to Odium.  I don't think his switch to Odium is based on repairing his self image necessarily. If there wasn't a mystical element here, I'd agree, but there is. Odium literally can take his guilt from him. Which is what he originally claims that Odium has done (he is "beyond guilt") before rationalizing his actions afterword. Even he has a hard time believing that he is wonderful and honorable paragon after he switches sides. I think he demonstrates this when he states that he cannot ever forgive himself after Dalinar extends his hand. His image is shattered in a way that even he cannot repair. Odium offers the peace of oblivion, and he takes it.

During his fight with Kaladin he does flop back into saying that he still is behaving honorably, so there support for your idea as well.

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2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

"It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar." This heavily implies that Restares was convincing Amaram to do it.

It implied Restares convinced Amaram of something, not what

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Why would he even speak of Restares opinions if they just discussed how to get away with the act.

As in Amaram does not know how to cover it up, and thinks of all the ways it could go wrong, but Restares convinces him it would work, and they would get away with it. 

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And furthermore, the quote is in the context of Amaram telling Kaladin why he couldn´t just ask for the Shards.

The progression is this:

1. Kaladin calling Amaram crem for killing his men. Amaram states he couldn't have them speak of what they saw

2. Kaladin says Amaram is taking the shards for himself. Amaram presents the egotistical delusion that only he is trained in the sword and used to plate. That Alethkar would be best served with him having them. Its not just he would use them better, all of Alethkar would benefit. Grandeur, narcissistic inflation. 

3. Kaladin states Amaram could have asked for them. Then Amaram explains that no one would believe that, and Kaladin would surely change his mind and want them back.

4. Amaram says Restares is right, it is for the good of Alethkar, reinforcing the egotistical delusion that Amaram and no one else can wield the blade and plate to save Alethkar. 

5. Kaladin yells that it is not about Alethkar, it is all about Amaram. Amaram looks guilty and looks away because he knows what Kaladin said is true. Narcissist having the delusion challenged with facts. Delusion begins to crumble. 

6. Kaladin says the whole honorable brightlord who cares for his men is an act. 

7. Amaram reinforces the delusion, that it is for his men (even though he just killed some of them). That Kaladin (someone lesser and not special) would not understand the weights he, Amaram (who is special) has to carry. 

8. Then he cannot worry about the lives of a few darkeyes (someone lesser and not special), when in view of him making such decisions (again grandiose, special) 

 

All falls in line with a narcissistic personality disorder. 

 

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That implies that Amaram maybe wanted to ask, but Restares told him not to. We have to read into things when discussing Amaram, since he doesn´t have too much screen-time. But I believe that the way the quote is phrased and the context it is in, defenitely makes it look like Restares was convincing Amaram to commit the crime. 

I most definitely disagree that it makes Restares look like he was convincing Amaram to commit the crime. I broke down the whole scene above line by line. I feel I have read plenty deeply and to me it lines up with narcissistic personality disorder. 

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Yes, he has to be seen as the one who rightfully claimed the Blade. Both for his egos sake and for helping Alethkar. I am not arguing against that Amaram is driven by ego. I' m arguing that he is driven by more than one thing, as is the case with most humans. He is complex character, not a one-dimensional bad guy. Amaram looks guilty because he knows that part of him is driven by greed, and that it is partially about himself. But not completely. If that was the case, this exchange would be very out of place:

Again I disagree that it is genuinely about helping Alethkar. In his head, he has created this grand delusion that he must be the savior, and like a narcissist, anything that threatens that is a problem. He looks guilty, because his delusion is threatened, which is what a narcissist would do. Word for word verbatim. 

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Amaram looked Kaladin in the eys. "I am sorry for what I did to you and yours. Sometimes, good men must die so that greater goals might be accomplished."
 Kaladin felt a gathering chill, a numbness that spread from his heart outward. He... honestly believes that he did the right thing.

Right, of course he honestly believes it, because it validates his delusion. I just wrote above:

 

"Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage"

 

Amaram's delusion is he must be the one to save the world. He is the only one that can do it. So what he did to Kaladin is ok because of the greater goals. It is when those greater goals are shown to be false, he could no longer rationalize and validation his delusion. He wasn't killing those men to save the world, he was killing them for his own ego. When confronted with the reality, he rationalized a way out of it by siding with Odium. Odium is the real good side. Humanity is bad, and the parsh should have the land. That is honorable. Oh look, delusion is validated once more. 

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Amaram honestly believes that his actions were justified. He doesn´t like them, because he has a moral compass, but he does believe that it was for a good cause. And Kaladin believes him. 

Again I disagree. If he truly felt bad for what he did. if he truly had a moral compass, then he would not have sided with Odium. You want more scenes to show this descent to make Amaram the tragic villain make sense. For myself, the scenes we have, Amaram the narcissist fits, so I do not need any additional scenes. It already works to me. 

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As for sparing Kaladin, that is a risk. He could just has well have done it out of guilt. He couldn´t bear to murder the man who saved his life. It looks more as a way to convince himself that he isn´t all bad, makes his sins easier to forget. 

Again, I disagree. It was his delusion. if he genuinely couldn't stand to murder kaladin, then why does he muse to himself twice later that he should have killed Kaladin when he had the chance? He regrets not killing Kaladin. He begins to hate Kaladin, because Kaladin risks the delusion he built up. 

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Read Amarams POV at the end of WoR. It shows his drive for the greater good. Some quotes for you:

I do not exult in this success. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis. The crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many. Nalan send that it is worth the loss. 

Nothing here disputes how a narcissist personality disorder would be. The entire passage strokes his own ego. It is the great burden he under takes. The church must be brought into dominance, and in order to do so the world has to be in crisis. The heralds must return, because if they don't his delusion does not get validated. Which is exactly what happened. He found out the heralds lied. His delusion collapsed. Being the narcissist I believe he is, he then reaches and rationalizes a way to maintain the delusion. Which he did by allying with Odium

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This is Amarams letter to Restares, and speaks of his worries and guilt at the death of millions. He also makes it clear that he cares about the greater goal, and that he hopes that the return of the Heralds will be worth the loss of human lives. 

I disagree. It is the rationalization of a narcissist to me. 

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It was happening. It was really happening. The Sons of Honor had, at long last, achieved their goal. Gavilar would be proud. 

Gavilar who fed and fueled that delusion. So of course he would think Gavilar would be proud. Brandon RAFO who Gavilar would have sided with (Dalinar, Taravangian, Amaram) after everything happened. 

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Amaram seems to be very excited about the imminent return of the Heralds. And he also thinks of how Gavilar would feel in regards to their success. Do note, he does not think of any of his own achievements or sacrifices here. Just about the success of the Sons of Honor as a whole. A narcissist would probably try to claim glory somewhere here, but he doesn´t. In fact, Amaram does not seem particularly narcissistic at all in this sequence. He does not speak to Taln about himself either, but instead talks about how Taln is, and what is awaiting Taln. 

But he did claim glory. They finally reached their goal. Gavilar would be proud. The heralds will return and validate his delusion. 

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Amaram had, somewhat foolishly, expected all Heralds to look Alethi. 

He admits to being a fool in certain aspects. Again, not really a sign of narcissism.

Um, actually that scene is a perfect example of a narcissist. Amaram comments how he is also surprised that Taln is a darkeyes and it simply must be a disguise. Different colored skin? That's no problem on Roshar. Eye color on the other hand? Oh boy! Part of Amaram's delusion is that lighteyes (which he is) are better. That was one of his excuses to Kaladin wasn't it? That because he is a lighteyes he can save Alethkar? But if the heralds aren't all lighteyes......then the lighteyes aren't the only ones who could save Alethkar.....then Kaladin who really did earn the blade should have had it......oh wait no can't have that. Amaram has to save the world, so the darkeyes of Taln simply must be a disguise. Ah delusion validated once more. 

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The Desolation... Talenelat whispered. 
"Yes. It comes. And with it, your return to glory."

Bolded by me. Again, Amaram focuses on Taln, not himself. Because to him, Taln is a holy being. 

Amaram hitched his wagon to the heralds. Heralds return in glory, so too Amaram is glorified because he made it happen. If that wasn't the case, then why is he personally devastated that they lied? His delusion, his glory went down the toilet. 

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Heart thumping in his chest, he looked back toward Talenelat, worried for the Heralds safety.

After Amaram is attacked by Iyatil, he worries for Talns safety, and takes a moment to let his guard down and check on him. Granted, you could argue that this is just because he wants to deliver Taln and gain glory, but his earlier words and thoughts speaks of him as a man dedicated to the greater cause, and Taln is very much part of that cause. 

Again do not see how that disputes anything I said. The heralds have to show up in all their glory for Amaram to get his glory. If the herald is seen as a gibbering mass, or dies before he does that, all Amaram's plans go down the toilet. 

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Yes we do. We see that Odium has taken away Amarams pain. Here:

"I hurt once", Amaram said. "Did you know that? After I was forced to kill your squad, I... hurt. Until I realized. It wasn´t my fault. The color of his glowing eyes intensified to a simmering crimson. "None of this is my fault."

I am glad you brought up that quote. Lets break it down. Amaram is saying:

"I was forced to kill your squad"

When was he forced? Who shackled him and said to kill the squad? Who threatened him? Was Amaram forced to the ground in front of Kaladin's crew, and told "kill them or you die" or "kill them or we kill someone you love". Nope. Amaram sprung the trap. Amaram gave the order. Once the heralds were revealed to be liars, Amaram hurt because his delusion broke apart. Odium offered Amaram a way out to restore his delusion. He took it. Validating it was not his fault. Again, to me, right in line with a narcissist. 

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This is what Odium does to people. He takes their pain, makes them feel like they don´t have to be held responsible for their own actions. He tries to do this exact thing to Dalinar, and fails:

"Don' t blame yourself" Odium said as Dalinar winced. "I made you kill her, Dalinar. I caused all of this."

This is what Odium does. He takes away pain, and convinces people it wasn´t their fault. He tricks and deceives them. Amarams claims at Thaylen Fields are more extreme than he has been earlier. This is Odiums effect. Odium enhances his bad traits by encouraging him to make up excuses for his actions. It is at this point, under the influence of Odium, that Amaram has turned into a full-blown narcissist, whereas he only has narcissistic streaks earlier. This is also why he is the foil to Dalinar. They have both done terrible things. They are both haunted by them. One gives in to Odium, the other doesn´t. It is a main point of the narrative in OB.

Then we come back to the same question I have asked you before. When did Odium corrupt Amaram? Because Kaladin happened before Oathbringer. Because the Shattered Plains happened before Oathbringer. Did Odium corrupt Amaram alllllllllll the way back then? Or how about how Sadeas says he knows the real Amaram? You mean to tell me Odium corrupted him even before then?

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In that way, Amaram is a foil to Jasnah. However, he serves a bigger narrative purpose by being Dalinars foil, not Jasnahs. He directly works as a mirror to the main character arc in OB, and shows what would happen if Dalinar had gone down the simple route, instead of the difficult one. 

I disagree, and if he was a greater foil to Dalinar, then he would still be alive to continue to be so. Amaram was originally not a thing. He was split off a bit from Sadeas and a merchant that was trying to marry Jasnah. So I do not see that he originally had a large narrative importance. Actually Amaram was originally supposed to die from that poison dart, but Brandon switched it to Sadeas dying. 

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Dalinar was about to prove that Amaram was guilty of murder, theft, lies and miscrediting his own victim. An arrest could have happened at any time. And Amaram would be a fool to strike down Dalinar then and there. They were standing in the middle of Dalinars bodyguards, and his army, with his loyal son, the dueling champion, and a bunch of other loyal shardbearers nearby. Had Amaram gone for it, he wouldn' t have left alive. And he is not that stupid. The Blade was there to ensure that he could get away, nothing more. 

I will repeat the points I made again

1. Yet Amaram claimed he would have no problem standing on trial

2. Dalinar said you cannot apprehend a shardbearer. You either execute them or let them go. Amaram was in no danger of being arrested

3. There was no sign of arrest when Amaram started to summon his blade

4. Dalinar called Amaram a fool twice and thinks Amaram is that stupid. 

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First off, Jasnah says it herself: Amaram genuinely thinks he is Alethkars hope and salvation. Genuinely. 

Just like a narcissist with narcissist personality disorder would. They build a delusion, and believe it. They rationalize away anything that disputes it, and violently attacks anything that endangers it (Kaladin, Dalinar, and Jasnah)

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Second, he loses his temper here, and is shamed in front of dozens of people. He has an overinflated ego, and is used to be able to command respect with his Blade. I doubt he would actually try to kill Jasnah here. We can also note that we don´t know the timeline of when Odium started hanging out with him. This could be before or after, but if it is the latter case, he was influenced by him here. I personally think he switched sides in Thaylen City, but there is no evidence for that. 

You doubt, but is there anything you can show me conclusively? I offered multiple examples of a repeatable habit with Amaram. I personally think it is clear he is a narcissist. 

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Considering one a fool isn´t the same as consider them stupid. Gandalf considers Pippin to be foolish at times, but never stupid. Amaram is a great general, and is trusted by both Gavilar and Restares. You don´t get that high up in a secret organization if you are stupid. The fact that Gavilar liked him also speaks for his intelligence. Gavilar was intelligent, no question about it. 

Amaram's men were disorganized, slovenly and on multiple occasions Amaram has failed as a leader. Now I know the first words out of your mouth would be well they were Sadeas's men first, but Kaladin was able to read the battlefield back in hearthstone as just a soldier and caught the cues that Amaram missed, resulting in Amaram being overwhelmed and ripe to be attacked by the shardbearer. That sounds stupid to me and to Dalinar. 

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Amaram does things he thinks is right (killing Kaladins men, which is an action Kaladin states that he himself believes was right) and still feels bad about it, because he killed and betrayed innocents. And he felt bad before Kaladin revealed it to Dalinar. The tomato argument is not representative of how Amaram acts or thinks.

I disagree. I think it is exactly how Amaram the narcissist thinks. For me it all lines up. 

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As for the narcisism, I have already shown why I don´t think Amaram has the personality disorder. He defenitively has narcisistic traits, but not the entire disorder. He is in fact suffering from inner feelings of shame as stated above. He is also not at all times talking about his own greatness. In fact, he speaks of Dalinar as a role model and praises him, not himself. He speaks of glory for Taln, not himself.

He is tied to Taln for his greatness, and Dalinar is a "great man" so naturally Dalinar should understand Amaram. Again textbook narcissist, only great people can understand him because he is special

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He is a great general, but he never goes into long rants about his military accomplishments.

Um, he does exactly that. At theylenah. he was sick of kissing the theylen merchants feet. That he is Dalinar's best general and he is being wasted. That he was wasted by Sadeas. That sounds like a military rant about his accomplishments. 

 

"I'm your best frontline general, and you know it. Torol spent years wasting me because my reputation intimidated him. Don't make the same mistake. Use me. Let me fight for Alethkar, not kiss the feet of Thaylen merchants! I-"

"Enough" Dalinar snapped "Follow your orders. That is how you'll prove yourself to me"

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He is also very aware of the fact that Jasnah rejects him, and asks her why.

Because his delusion means she should be wowed by him. He then rationalizes it that she is heretical :::bleep::::

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He does not blame Dalinar for causing their friendship to break. Furthermore, Wikipedia states that the disorder brings lack of emphaty, which doesn't fit with Amaram.

He blames Kaladin, who he muses he should have killed. The empathy you reference is the guilt I say a narcissist would feel when their delusions are endangered. 

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Agreed. But I think they also show his care about the greater good, and genuine horror at the crimes he commits. 

I disagree for everything I wrote at extreme length

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Yes, he does the things Jasnah accuses him of. But she hates him, and therefore, is not a great character witness. She is right about that he does bad things, but her overall assessment might miss out on the better parts, simply because of her bias. 

So if someone shot someone I love and I hate them now, and I say to watch out he will shoot again, and he does in fact shoot again, my statement should be ignored because I hate him? Her assessment was accurate. Her assessment was confirmed. So I will go with her assessment. 

1 hour ago, Config2 said:

I didn't look at the reason, only the statement of fact. Chances are it varies from member to member (some believe its about saving souls, some see it as a way to maintain or grow power), and I'd be willing to believe that it is a power play for Amaram.

All I am speaking regarding is Amaram. 

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Partially agreed. We cannot say if all members of the society are performing a power play, or only some. I agree that Amaram, based on your argument, is more in the power camp than the saving souls camp. Those may be one and the same for his mind however, making it hard to judge his true motivation. 

Personally I still think even if they thought they were trying to save souls, the means does not excuse the goal. None of those people get the choice in the matter. They don't get to say "hey I don't believe in your religion and I don't want to die for it". The sons of honor chose for them. 

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I think you addressed your view, I was adding a counterpoint I felt Toaster hadn't made. I will note that we aren't entirely in disagreement. 

I guess then I am confused, because I felt Toaster did make that point and I already replied to it, which is why I copy pasted. Wasn't intending to be flippant, just saving my hands from retyping. 

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That is true. My statement wasn't perfectly clear; he is correct that his manufactured personality of the perfect light eyed general killing a shardbearer is proof of a divine right to rule. That is more effective at supporting the current Vorin system than a Dark-eyes becoming elevated to a lighteyes. I think a part, not the whole, of his decision is based off of this logic, rather than shear desire to obtain the shards (or be seen obtaining the shards). It doesn't have to be one or the other.

So I am adding to this because of my discussion with Toaster in this same post. it has to be a natural born lighteyes so it can only be him. if it was any lighteyes, then Kaladin would have been valid, and Amaram would not have been special, which would damage his delusion. So he validated his delusion by adding he has skill with the sword and plate, and only he could save Alethkar. 

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Some of the difference is semantics. Namely the first part; he thinks he is a hero, the betrayal of Vorinism shatters that image. Its the not the betrayal, but how the betrayal makes him look.  I'm sorry I paraphrased you poorly in that regard.

No problem. 

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I suppose the point I didn't pick up was the reason for his switch to Odium.  I don't think his switch to Odium is based on repairing his self image necessarily. If there wasn't a mystical element here, I'd agree, but there is. Odium literally can take his guilt from him. Which is what he originally claims that Odium has done (he is "beyond guilt") before rationalizing his actions afterword. Even he has a hard time believing that he is wonderful and honorable paragon after he switches sides. I think he demonstrates this when he states that he cannot ever forgive himself after Dalinar extends his hand. His image is shattered in a way that even he cannot repair. Odium offers the peace of oblivion, and he takes it.

Ehhhhh, its like you said we are starting to get into semantics. I think the taking of pain/guilt was ancillary. To me Odium offered Amaram a way of still validating his self delusion. Like Amaram said, Odium promised him greatness and Odium delivered.  

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During his fight with Kaladin he does flop back into saying that he still is behaving honorably, so there support for your idea as well.

Yep. That is my thinking. He is still trying to maintain his delusion. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

It implied Restares convinced Amaram of something, not what.

Yes, it is implied that he convinced him that killing Kaladin was necessary. Restares is right - this is what must be done. Amaram thinks that Restares is right about something. I think we are in agreement thus far. But then he continues, saying that Restares is right about that this must be done. This is obviously referring to murdering Kaladins men. And if Restares has told Amaram that it must be done, the implication is that Amaram didn´t want to do it. Now, you are correct about that we don´t know exactly what Amarams objection was, but it sounds to me as if he is convincing himself that the act itself can be excused with the greater goal. 

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Kaladin says Amaram is taking the shards for himself. Amaram presents the egotistical delusion that only he is trained in the sword and used to plate. That Alethkar would be best served with him having them. Its not just he would use them better, all of Alethkar would benefit. Grandeur, narcissistic inflation. 

This is not really narcissistic or a delusion though. We see Renarin and Moash training with Shards in WoR, and it is a hard thing to get the hang of. It is not unlikely to assume that Amaram might have trained with plate or Blade before, and even if he hasn´t, he has seen them in action, knows the strategy and is well-versed with the sword as a weapon. If they need the Shards to be useful relatively quickly, Amaram is a better choice to wield them. Furthermore, people are trading kingdoms for Shards. They are incredibly valueable. A skilled user can easily turn the tide of a battle. So that Alethkar would benefit from a skilled Shardbearer in the event of a Voidbringer attack is a no-brainer. Do note, I am not saying that Amaram did the right thing. I am saying that this is' t necessarily a delusion.

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Amaram says Restares is right, it is for the good of Alethkar, reinforcing the egotistical delusion that Amaram and no one else can wield the blade and plate to save Alethkar. 

Bolded by me. You are reading a lot more into this statement than I am. Amaram is justifying his actions here (or at least trying to) but we don´t know wether he thinks that he and only he is fit to wield the Blade and Plate. In fact, his clear admiration for others, like Taln or Dalinar, implies that he might consider them more worthy than he is. 

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Right, of course he honestly believes it, because it validates his delusion. I just wrote above:

 

"Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage"

If he genuinely believes it because it reinforces his fantasy, he would not believe it, because he knows that his fantasy isn' t real. That is very clear. He looks ashamed when Kaladin calls him out on his crem dung, and states that he hurt and felt bad because of what he did to Kaladin. This implies that he knows that he has done the wrong things, and is aware of it, and can' t ignore it. You can´t genuinely believe something that you know is there just to reinforce a lie. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Again I disagree. If he truly felt bad for what he did. if he truly had a moral compass, then he would not have sided with Odium. You want more scenes to show this descent to make Amaram the tragic villain make sense. For myself, the scenes we have, Amaram the narcissist fits, so I do not need any additional scenes. It already works to me. 

Dalinar defenitely has a moral compass. Yet he was tempted by Odiums offer to take his pain away. Amaram has a moral compass but wasn' t able to resist the temptation. He says this very clearly. He hurt once, but then realized nothing was his fault. When he hurt, he knew that he had done morally repulsive things. He didn´t feel huge guilt over screwing up his own reputation. He felt guilt over doing what he did to Kaladin. Siding with Odium is what he did to avoid having to live with the guilt. I think that is very obvious from the text. 

And Amaram the tragic villain makes sense to me with or without extra scenes. The extra scenes would have made his descent clearer, and might even have made readers feel sorry for him, which would have made the final act in OB even stronger than it already is. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, I disagree. It was his delusion. if he genuinely couldn't stand to murder kaladin, then why does he muse to himself twice later that he should have killed Kaladin when he had the chance? He regrets not killing Kaladin. He begins to hate Kaladin, because Kaladin risks the delusion he built up. 

He wishes that he' d have killed him so that he could have kept his reputation and his friendship with Dalinar. If he could stand murdering Kaladin, why spare him? It isn' t for his ego, because from that point of view, his actions are already justified, and the delusion already built up. His fantasy world wouldn' t break if he killed Kaladin. In fact, long term, it would be the smartest thing to do. Had Kaladin died, his crimes would never have been revealed. If he wants to keep his reputation intact, killing him is the best choice. So why not do it? 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Nothing here disputes how a narcissist personality disorder would be. The entire passage strokes his own ego. It is the great burden he under takes. The church must be brought into dominance, and in order to do so the world has to be in crisis. The heralds must return, because if they don't his delusion does not get validated. Which is exactly what happened. He found out the heralds lied. His delusion collapsed. Being the narcissist I believe he is, he then reaches and rationalizes a way to maintain the delusion. Which he did by allying with Odium

Fair enough. It can be read that way. It can also be read as Amaram genuinely worrying, and is in need of talking to someone about it. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about our interpretation. The only other thing I' ll say about this is that Amaram mentions himself once in that passage. Otherwise it is all about "us". He isn' t speaking of his own burden, but the Sons of Honor as a group. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Gavilar who fed and fueled that delusion. So of course he would think Gavilar would be proud.

Amaram is genuinely excited about the return of the Heralds. He doesn' t think about the crowds that will be cheering for him. Not of the glory he will recieve. Not about how the Heralds will thank him for his actions. Not about statues built in his honor. Only about how exciting it is that the Heralds will finally return, and how proud Gavilar would be. A narcissist would think more of how he would benefit directly, or about how he has contributed to the greater good. But in this chapter, Amaram is only a passionate man who is hyped to meet the people he considers to be divine. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Amaram hitched his wagon to the heralds. Heralds return in glory, so too Amaram is glorified because he made it happen. If that wasn't the case, then why is he personally devastated that they lied? His delusion, his glory went down the toilet. 

If that is the case, why isn' t he thinking about his excitement over his future glory, instead of his excitement over reaching the greater good and meeting the Heralds? He is devastated about the lie because that means he commited all his crimes for nothing. The justifications are gone, and all that is left is a liar and murderer. The lies of the Heralds shatters Amarams entire foundation. I think most religious people would be devastated if they discovered that their faith was a lie, and that the ones they worshipped were the people who lied and betrayed them. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

When was he forced? Who shackled him and said to kill the squad? Who threatened him? Was Amaram forced to the ground in front of Kaladin's crew, and told "kill them or you die" or "kill them or we kill someone you love". Nope. Amaram sprung the trap. Amaram gave the order. Once the heralds were revealed to be liars, Amaram hurt because his delusion broke apart. Odium offered Amaram a way out to restore his delusion. He took it. Validating it was not his fault. Again, to me, right in line with a narcissist.

He was "forced" by a combination of the greater good, his ego and pressure from Restares. I think you will notice that Amaram is a follower. He needs someone to follow and look up to. Gavilar, Dalinar, Restares. Peer pressure is an effective mechanic to control that kind of person, and Restares commands must have been hard for Amaram to dismiss. Especially if he threw in some religious arguments. Believe me when I say that those kinds of divine-based arguments can have immense power when used on the right person. I know this firsthand from personal experience. 

But you are right in that it still was an active choice that he made. Which is why he felt bad. And he says that he hurt after killing Kaladins men. Not after learning about the lies of the Heralds. Not after losing Dalinars friendship. Not after being revealed as a liar and murderer. But after killing innocent men. This hurt was killing him, like it was killing Dalinar and forced him into drinking. The difference is how they dealt with it. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Then we come back to the same question I have asked you before. When did Odium corrupt Amaram? Because Kaladin happened before Oathbringer. Because the Shattered Plains happened before Oathbringer. Did Odium corrupt Amaram alllllllllll the way back then? Or how about how Sadeas says he knows the real Amaram? You mean to tell me Odium corrupted him even before then?

There isn' t an exact timeline for this. I know some people think it happened when Amaram was bringing Taln to Urithiru. My personal headcanon is that it happened when he was overseeing the rebuilding of Thaylen City. But it defenitely happened after his WoR POV, otherwise we should have seen signs of Odiums influence. He broke after learning of the Heralds lies after all, and that hadn' t happened in WoR. So my answer is sometime during OB. I am not, and have never, put all Amarams crimes on Odium. In fact, I have been quite clear with that they are his faults. 

As for Sadeas, I think he means that he knows that Amaram isn' t as honorable as he pretends to be. Furthermore, Amaram doesn' t react with denial or anger at that, as far as I remember. Which he should do, if he was a narcissist. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I disagree, and if he was a greater foil to Dalinar, then he would still be alive to continue to be so. Amaram was originally not a thing. He was split off a bit from Sadeas and a merchant that was trying to marry Jasnah. So I do not see that he originally had a large narrative importance. Actually Amaram was originally supposed to die from that poison dart, but Brandon switched it to Sadeas dying

So the parallells between him and Dalinar in OB are a coincidence? 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I will repeat the points I made again

1. Yet Amaram claimed he would have no problem standing on trial

2. Dalinar said you cannot apprehend a shardbearer. You either execute them or let them go. Amaram was in no danger of being arrested

3. There was no sign of arrest when Amaram started to summon his blade

4. Dalinar called Amaram a fool twice and thinks Amaram is that stupid.

1. Yes, Amaram says this. He also says that he wouldn' t have a problem with it as long as it happens after the Voidbringers are defeated. At this moment, Dalinar hasn' t yet agreed to that, and he doesn' t know what Dalinar is about to do. 

2. How would Amaram know that Dalinar wouldn' t try to apprehend him despite this? Or have him executed directly. The Blade was a precaution. 

3. Not yet. But summoning takes ten heartbeats. He wanted to be prepared. 

4. Dalinar thinks Amaram is foolish at times. Not stupid. How would a person stupid enough to kill a highprince in the middle of his own army ever reach to a position where he could command armies, be widely respected and trusted with the secrets of king Gavilar and the Sons of Honor?

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Just like a narcissist with narcissist personality disorder would. They build a delusion, and believe it. They rationalize away anything that disputes it, and violently attacks anything that endangers it (Kaladin, Dalinar, and Jasnah)

Yet he doesn' t violently attack Kaladin, despite having the opportunity to. He doesn' t violently attack Sadeas. He doesn' t violently attack Dalinar in OB. He doesn' t violently attack Wit. 

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Amaram's men were disorganized, slovenly and on multiple occasions Amaram has failed as a leader. Now I know the first words out of your mouth would be well they were Sadeas's men first, but Kaladin was able to read the battlefield back in hearthstone as just a soldier and caught the cues that Amaram missed, resulting in Amaram being overwhelmed and ripe to be attacked by the shardbearer. That sounds stupid to me and to Dalinar. 

My first words were actually supposed to be that the Sadeas soldiers were suspicious and angry at everyone in Urithiru, just had their highprince killed, and yes, had a habit of being disorganized and slovenly. Not an easy mess to clean. But still, he managed to make them successfully rebuild Thaylen City. 

How come no one every calls him out on not being a great general then? How would he have gained the trust and respect of Dalinar, Sadeas, Gavilar and Alethkar in general if he was an incompetent general who constantly failed and was stupid enough to try and murder a Highprince in front of his entire army. He can' t be falsifying entire battles. 

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I disagree. I think it is exactly how Amaram the narcissist thinks. For me it all lines up. 

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And I have provided several arguments for why it doesn' t work for me. Amaram hurt after killing Kaladins men. Amaram isn' t violent when critizied by Sadeas and Hoid. Amaram genuinely believes in his religion and his cause. Amaram is pressured by his mentor figures. Amaram is given huge responsibilities, which you don' t give to a narcissist with half a brain. 

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Um, he does exactly that. At theylenah. he was sick of kissing the theylen merchants feet. That he is Dalinar's best general and he is being wasted. That he was wasted by Sadeas. That sounds like a military rant about his accomplishments. 

 

"I'm your best frontline general, and you know it. Torol spent years wasting me because my reputation intimidated him. Don't make the same mistake. Use me. Let me fight for Alethkar, not kiss the feet of Thaylen merchants! I-"

"Enough" Dalinar snapped "Follow your orders. That is how you'll prove yourself to me"

First off, at this point, he has sided with Odium. I'm 99% certain on that. Second, this isn' t bragging. This is frustration at not being allowed to be in the thick of the action. Do you think Kelsier would want to spend time rebuilding cities when there is a war to fight? Wax? Vin? 

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Because his delusion means she should be wowed by him. He then rationalizes it that she is heretical :::bleep::::

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His insult to her isn' t a rationalization for why she hates him. They are an angry answer to her insults. Just like Kaladin and Shallan counter eachothers insults when they dislike eachother in WoR. 

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So if someone shot someone I love and I hate them now, and I say to watch out he will shoot again, and he does in fact shoot again, my statement should be ignored because I hate him? Her assessment was accurate. Her assessment was confirmed. So I will go with her assessment. 

15 hours ago, Config2 said:

That doesn' t change the fact that she is negatively biased. She only speaks of his bad sides. We don' t need a witness that tells us Amaram has done bad things, because we know he has. The more interesting witness is the one without a bias, but with knowledge. Sadly we don' t have one of those. 

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4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Yes, it is implied that he convinced him that killing Kaladin was necessary. Restares is right - this is what must be done. Amaram thinks that Restares is right about something. I think we are in agreement thus far. But then he continues, saying that Restares is right about that this must be done. This is obviously referring to murdering Kaladins men. And if Restares has told Amaram that it must be done, the implication is that Amaram didn´t want to do it. Now, you are correct about that we don´t know exactly what Amarams objection was, but it sounds to me as if he is convincing himself that the act itself can be excused with the greater goal. 

I disagree that it is obvious what this is. We just do not know. We do not know what Amaram disagreed with Restares about. We do not even know if Amaram disagreed. Again it could have just as easily been 

 

1. we need the shardblade. agreed

2. if we just take it, people will have a problem. agreed

3. Amaram is not sure how to frame it so people will buy that he should have it. Hours of deliberation has Restares come up with the idea that killing the bridgemen would solve the issue. Amaram agrees

 

See? Based on the vague wording and little information we have, that process could be just as valid. You are free to read into things as you have, but so am I, and that scene is far from conclusive. What is conclusive however, is traveling to the center of the Shattered Plains, Amaram pulling a shardblade on Dalinar and Jasnah, Amaram regretting not killing Kaladin when he had the chance (twice!), and Thaylenah. 

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This is not really narcissistic or a delusion though. We see Renarin and Moash training with Shards in WoR, and it is a hard thing to get the hang of. It is not unlikely to assume that Amaram might have trained with plate or Blade before, and even if he hasn´t, he has seen them in action, knows the strategy and is well-versed with the sword as a weapon. If they need the Shards to be useful relatively quickly, Amaram is a better choice to wield them. Furthermore, people are trading kingdoms for Shards. They are incredibly valueable. A skilled user can easily turn the tide of a battle. So that Alethkar would benefit from a skilled Shardbearer in the event of a Voidbringer attack is a no-brainer. Do note, I am not saying that Amaram did the right thing. I am saying that this is' t necessarily a delusion.

Kaladin without any plate and blade took on a fully armored shardbearer and won. Kaladin is clearly the better trained soldier. Any training in plate and blade that he lacks could be provided and given his apparent skill would exceed Amaram. Just because Amaram currently might have more experience in plate and blade, does not mean he would be better with them. Especially when he was unable to win them himself. He stole them from the better warrior. Also as I have mentioned, Kaladin is the better strategist. Amaram was faced with someone who was better and more deserving, so he rationalized away the facts to support his delusion. 

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Bolded by me. You are reading a lot more into this statement than I am. Amaram is justifying his actions here (or at least trying to) but we don´t know wether he thinks that he and only he is fit to wield the Blade and Plate. In fact, his clear admiration for others, like Taln or Dalinar, implies that he might consider them more worthy than he is. 

See you say I am reading too much into things, but the information we do have that counters what you say, you disregard. That Amaram must actually feel bad about it. Amaram wouldn't do that, because he isn't stupid. The book shows he is doing it. He has done it You have no proof he wouldn't do that. But still Amaram would never do that. Jasnah states Amaram would do something, Amaram has done such a thing three times, but we cannot believe Jasnah. I do not feel I am the one reading too much into things. 

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If he genuinely believes it because it reinforces his fantasy, he would not believe it, because he knows that his fantasy isn' t real. That is very clear. He looks ashamed when Kaladin calls him out on his crem dung, and states that he hurt and felt bad because of what he did to Kaladin. This implies that he knows that he has done the wrong things, and is aware of it, and can' t ignore it. You can´t genuinely believe something that you know is there just to reinforce a lie. 

Have you read the paragraph I posted twice now on how a narcissistic personality disorder functions? I will try one more time:

 

Narcissistic Personality Disorder deals with love of an inflated self-image. They are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it's causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. They are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticism, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as person attacks. Narcissists believe they are unique or "special" and can only be understood by other special people. Narcissists also believe that they're better than everyone else, and expect recognition as such - even when they've done nothing to earn it. They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. When they talk about work or relationships, all you'll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. Since reality doesn't support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage. 

 

I will elaborate in list form just in case

 

1. they create a fantasy that is grandiose and operate as if it is fact (only I can save Alethkar and the world)

2. they build up the fantasy by attaching it to other unique or special people, building their own specialness (Gavilar, Dalinar, Taln, etc)

3. when confronted by facts that dispute that fantasy, they feel shame and emptiness (Kaladin saying its all about Amaram, not about saving the world)

4. the delusion is now threatened, they rationalize the facts away, and lash out at the person who threatens their delusion (Amaram reinforcing only he has the capabilities to save the world, so he has to do these things for the world. He is merciful for sparing Kaladin even though he is casting Kaladin into a world of enslavement and worse. Then regrets not killing Kaladin)

5. having rationalized it, the delusion now secure, Amaram continues to operate as if it is fact. 

 

So again, everything to me lines up.

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Dalinar defenitely has a moral compass. Yet he was tempted by Odiums offer to take his pain away. Amaram has a moral compass but wasn' t able to resist the temptation. He says this very clearly. He hurt once, but then realized nothing was his fault. When he hurt, he knew that he had done morally repulsive things. He didn´t feel huge guilt over screwing up his own reputation. He felt guilt over doing what he did to Kaladin. Siding with Odium is what he did to avoid having to live with the guilt. I think that is very obvious from the text. 

Again I disagree. I already said multiple times now why I feel Amaram took Odium's deal and it has nothing to do with a moral compass or genuine empathy. 

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And Amaram the tragic villain makes sense to me with or without extra scenes. The extra scenes would have made his descent clearer, and might even have made readers feel sorry for him, which would have made the final act in OB even stronger than it already is. 

Once again, surprise surprise, I disagree. The scenes we have shows to me a person with narcissist personality disorder, who makes sense why, given the information we have, he would side with Odium. To me if you look at Amaram as a tragic villain who has a moral compass, and is a foil to Dalinar, then his switch to Odium and subsequent actions do not make sense. It would be counter to his entire internal arc. What I believe you are presenting to me is a genuine person who wants to save the world. That lets his pride get the best of him at times, and led to his ultimate fall. But such a person would not:

 

1. reflect on his mercy of Kaladin and say to himself twice "darn, I should have killed him when I had the chance".

2. A person who genuinely felt bad for what they did and not because it threatened a delusion, would not disregard his betrayal of Dalinar (he literally lied and tried to steal from Dalinar), and think to himself that it is Dalinar's fault for trusting Kaladin and ending their friendship. Amaram literally stole from Dalinar, lied to his face, and told Dalinar his trust comes cheaply regarding Sebarial and the other guy. When confronted, he does not lament for lying to Dalinar. He does not see what he did as a betrayal to Dalinar. He laments he got caught. He is surprised that Dalinar was crafty enough to catch him. And he is upset that Kaladin revealing the truth separated him from Dalinar. He even still claims after everything that Dalinar (special unique person) would understand what he did. Even after all the times Dalinar said otherwise.

 

Self delusion of a narcissist. 

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He wishes that he' d have killed him so that he could have kept his reputation and his friendship with Dalinar. If he could stand murdering Kaladin, why spare him? It isn' t for his ego, because from that point of view, his actions are already justified, and the delusion already built up. His fantasy world wouldn' t break if he killed Kaladin. In fact, long term, it would be the smartest thing to do. Had Kaladin died, his crimes would never have been revealed. If he wants to keep his reputation intact, killing him is the best choice. So why not do it? 

I already said why it was for his ego. So he could tell himself "look at me, aren't I so wonderful? I am being merciful!". Kaladin calls him out on that "mercy". He tore away Kaladin's family, friends, home. Everything that Kaladin loves. When Kaladin confronts him with that at the end of Oathbringer, Amaram again rationalizes it away to preserve his delusion that that was his intention all along. It made Kaladin stronger. Kaladin should thank him. It is when Kaladin points out that anything Kaladin accomplished was his own, not Amaram's, Amaram gets enraged. Just like a narcissist would. 

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Fair enough. It can be read that way. It can also be read as Amaram genuinely worrying, and is in need of talking to someone about it. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about our interpretation. The only other thing I' ll say about this is that Amaram mentions himself once in that passage. Otherwise it is all about "us". He isn' t speaking of his own burden, but the Sons of Honor as a group. 

As I posted in the paragraph about narcissistic personality disorder, a narcissist attaches themselves to other "great" people and things so as to validate their "greatness". That is why the accomplishments of the sons of honor and Amaram are one and the same. 

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Amaram is genuinely excited about the return of the Heralds. He doesn' t think about the crowds that will be cheering for him. Not of the glory he will recieve. Not about how the Heralds will thank him for his actions. Not about statues built in his honor. Only about how exciting it is that the Heralds will finally return, and how proud Gavilar would be. A narcissist would think more of how he would benefit directly, or about how he has contributed to the greater good. But in this chapter, Amaram is only a passionate man who is hyped to meet the people he considers to be divine. 

See, you say I am reading too much into things, but because his thoughts did not include one specific sentence, it means all of that? How is that not reading too much into things?

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If that is the case, why isn' t he thinking about his excitement over his future glory, instead of his excitement over reaching the greater good and meeting the Heralds? He is devastated about the lie because that means he commited all his crimes for nothing. The justifications are gone, and all that is left is a liar and murderer. The lies of the Heralds shatters Amarams entire foundation. I think most religious people would be devastated if they discovered that their faith was a lie, and that the ones they worshipped were the people who lied and betrayed them. 

I already explained why. It is his delusion. His delusion is he is the hero to bring back the heralds. So of course he is excited that a herald is back, and will be glorious. He is the wonderful paragon of virtue. As a narcissist, he believes this is true. Any action that disputes this, either someone else's or his own is rationalized so he may continue to believe he is this wonderful paragon of virtue. That is why he rationalizes his killing of Kaladin's men and enslavement of Kaladin. That is why he is so excited for the return of the heralds to glory. It validates his delusion. He doesn't consciously state "hey yay taln is back, so I can be the hero!" otherwise that would threaten the delusion. Kaladin did that. He said it wasn't to save the world, it was about himself, and that threatened the delusion. I feel like you are trying to reduce narcissist personality disorder to someone who will run around sceaming "me me me me me me me me!" and if they do not do that, they aren't it, when that is not how it functions at all. 

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He was "forced" by a combination of the greater good, his ego and pressure from Restares. I think you will notice that Amaram is a follower. He needs someone to follow and look up to. Gavilar, Dalinar, Restares. Peer pressure is an effective mechanic to control that kind of person, and Restares commands must have been hard for Amaram to dismiss. Especially if he threw in some religious arguments. Believe me when I say that those kinds of divine-based arguments can have immense power when used on the right person. I know this firsthand from personal experience. 

Where was Dalinar peer pressuring Amaram to want to conquor Thaylenah? Where was Dalinar peer pressuring Amaram to suggest they go to the Shattered Plains alone? Who was peer pressuring Amaram to get into Jasnah's face and then threaten her? Yet again, you have said I am reading too much into things, but I do not see where you get that Amaram has all this peer pressure. 

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But you are right in that it still was an active choice that he made. Which is why he felt bad. And he says that he hurt after killing Kaladins men. Not after learning about the lies of the Heralds. Not after losing Dalinars friendship. Not after being revealed as a liar and murderer. But after killing innocent men. This hurt was killing him, like it was killing Dalinar and forced him into drinking. The difference is how they dealt with it. 

Amaram said he "hurt once" after killing Kaladin's men. First you stated it was when Odium offered to take his pain. Then you are saying it occurred back then. Can you please pick and stick to it? You still have not answered when Odium corrupted Amaram, because you know if we can point to a place when it happened, then if Amaram did anything bad before that, then it is Amaram, not Odium that is responsible. 

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There isn' t an exact timeline for this. I know some people think it happened when Amaram was bringing Taln to Urithiru. My personal headcanon is that it happened when he was overseeing the rebuilding of Thaylen City. But it defenitely happened after his WoR POV, otherwise we should have seen signs of Odiums influence. He broke after learning of the Heralds lies after all, and that hadn' t happened in WoR. So my answer is sometime during OB. I am not, and have never, put all Amarams crimes on Odium. In fact, I have been quite clear with that they are his faults. 

Then if he was corrupted by Odium during the rebuilding of Thaylen City, then he threatened Jasnah and Dalinar before that. Then he pushed for glory at the Shattered Plains before that. Then allllllllll the things I said that are hallmarks of a narcissist personality disorder to me, occurred before that. 

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As for Sadeas, I think he means that he knows that Amaram isn' t as honorable as he pretends to be. Furthermore, Amaram doesn' t react with denial or anger at that, as far as I remember. Which he should do, if he was a narcissist. 

Again reading too much into things. Sadeas says and i quote:

 

"Don't give me that noble talk. It works fine for others, but I know you for the ruthless bastard you really are"

(Sadeas is calling Amaram out on his act)

"Torol there is so much more to the world than your squabbles. You're right about me, of course. Take that admission with the understanding that to you, above all others, I can speak the truth. Alethkar needs to be strong for what is coming"

(now I know what you are going to say "see! he admitted it! a narcissist wouldn't admit it!". Except again, this all falls in line with narcissistic personality disorder. What Amaram does is above squabbles. It has to do with the entire world. Reinforcement of his grandeur. Then statement showing Sadeas is special. Then attachment to someone special. Only someone special could understand Amaram who is special, so Amaram can only be truthful with Sadeas. Then back to saving Alethkar. Amaram can be a ruthless bastard because he is saving the world. He can be dirty but still be clean because of this higher calling. Thereby the delusion is reinforced.)

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So the parallells between him and Dalinar in OB are a coincidence? 

Dalinar showed that if a person is genuinely sorry for what they have done, and wish to be better, it is possible. Dalinar reached out his hand to Amaram in offering of help. Amaram in his narcissism refused. I do not see Amaram and Dalinar as foils. I see Amaram and Jasnah as foils. 

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1. Yes, Amaram says this. He also says that he wouldn' t have a problem with it as long as it happens after the Voidbringers are defeated. At this moment, Dalinar hasn' t yet agreed to that, and he doesn' t know what Dalinar is about to do. 

Yet again, shardbearers you either execute or let go. Why that is in this case, and why Amaram would know that I will reply in my next point

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2. How would Amaram know that Dalinar wouldn' t try to apprehend him despite this? Or have him executed directly. The Blade was a precaution. 

Precaution of what? Amaram was still under Sadeas. Remember? He kept trying to convince Dalinar to bury the hatchet and be friends with Sadeas? Dalinar tried repeatedly for Amaram to join his house and Amaram refused. What do you think would happen if Dalinar tried to arrest Amaram, who is under Sadeas? Dalinar would have to execute Amaram in a duel. Amaram would legally be allowed to draw his blade and fight Dalinar because he can claim offense at Dalinar's accusations. Dalinar on the other hand cannot unless he can provide proof Amaram stole from him before the king. That wouldn't work because Dalinar already lost most of his clout with the Highprinces, and was going to travel to the shattered plains. Dalinar has no ability to make anything stick or do anything in that moment. All he could do is say "I know what you are, I am blind no more". And for that, Amaram pulled a blade

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3. Not yet. But summoning takes ten heartbeats. He wanted to be prepared. 

For what? he didn't think Dalinar had a shardblade at all, and Dalinar wasn't wearing plate. There wasn't a single thing Amaram thought Dalinar could actually do to him physically for Amaram to feel threatened enough to pull a blade. 

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4. Dalinar thinks Amaram is foolish at times. Not stupid. How would a person stupid enough to kill a highprince in the middle of his own army ever reach to a position where he could command armies, be widely respected and trusted with the secrets of king Gavilar and the Sons of Honor?

As Jasnah said, his mother slept around enough to get Amaram in a good position and the connections he needed to rise in the ranks/ 

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Yet he doesn' t violently attack Kaladin, despite having the opportunity to. He doesn' t violently attack Sadeas. He doesn' t violently attack Dalinar in OB. He doesn' t violently attack Wit. 

He has Kaladin enslaved and branded with a hot iron the first time. The second time, Elhokar already sent his men to imprison Kaladin and Elhokar wanted to execute Kaladin. When Dalinar brought it up later, Amaram tried to get Kaladin punished for "slander". We see at Thaylenah what Amaram really thinks of Sadeas. He does violently attack Dalinar. I call pulling a shardblade on an unarmed man as violently attacking. Wit if he attacked and killed would cause him to lose all his lands and title. How would ole Amaram save the day if he was poor?

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My first words were actually supposed to be that the Sadeas soldiers were suspicious and angry at everyone in Urithiru, just had their highprince killed, and yes, had a habit of being disorganized and slovenly. Not an easy mess to clean. But still, he managed to make them successfully rebuild Thaylen City. 

Yes they helped rebuild thaylenah, while he was lamenting that he was not conquering and killing them. 

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How come no one every calls him out on not being a great general then? How would he have gained the trust and respect of Dalinar, Sadeas, Gavilar and Alethkar in general if he was an incompetent general who constantly failed and was stupid enough to try and murder a Highprince in front of his entire army. He can' t be falsifying entire battles.

He followed orders. Every time we see him, he sucks up to his "betters" and does what he is told while saying they were brilliant. Jasnah in the flashback of Gavilar's death sees Amaram as a sycophant of Gavilar, and is stupid. But of course, we are cannot take her word for it as per you. He would not be murdering a highprince in front of his entire army, he would be defending his honor from an accusation. Remember when Sadeas insulted Renarin? Remember how Dalinar said that Sadeas surely must not have said such a thing because it would be grounds to duel to the death right then and there? Sounds like that is plenty legal, and Amaram said normally if Jasnah was a man, that is exactly what he would do. He still did it anyway because again, jasnah further threatened his delusion. 

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And I have provided several arguments for why it doesn' t work for me. Amaram hurt after killing Kaladins men. Amaram isn' t violent when critizied by Sadeas and Hoid. Amaram genuinely believes in his religion and his cause. Amaram is pressured by his mentor figures. Amaram is given huge responsibilities, which you don' t give to a narcissist with half a brain. 

And again I have provided several arguments for why I disagree. Amaram's hurt after killing Kaladins men was the shame of a narcissist when their delusion was threatened. Amaram isn't violent with Sadeas because he still needs Sadeas for his "grand plan/delusion". Amaram isn't violent with Hoid because he would lose his lands and all his ways to "save the world". This is my own reading, but I think I can be damnation sure that if there was a way to take out Wit without Amaram losing his titles, he would have. I see no evidence Amaram genuinely believes he is saving souls. I see no evidence that Amaram is pressured by his mentors. Finally all these huge responsibilities you mention, are from Amaram's lips, which a narcissist would elevate and inflate to support his grandiose self delusion. 

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First off, at this point, he has sided with Odium. I'm 99% certain on that. Second, this isn' t bragging. This is frustration at not being allowed to be in the thick of the action. Do you think Kelsier would want to spend time rebuilding cities when there is a war to fight? Wax? Vin? 

Great, so:

1. can you point me to the scene that proves that is when Amaram switched sides? 

2. Its not? He literally rants about how wonderful of a general he is, and how he should be on the front lines to save Alethkar. As if without him, Alethkar would fall.

3. I am going to ignore Kelsier because that is another character we disagree with (Brandon states he is a sociopath, but you disagree). So lets look at Wax and Vin. I will spoiler it below as we are in the stormlight thread

Spoiler

Vin didn't want to kill. She abhors it. Her crisis as a character is when she feels she is only of use as a weapon. So if you gave her a choice between helping a city and killing people, and showed her that helping the city would do more to help than killing, she would take that in a heart beat. Same with Wax. He went to the roughs because he felt that is where he could do the most good. He laments that he is beginning to realize that maybe the city needed him more. Sanderson has said Wax is going to step back now and focus on his marriage and doing good with his position in power. Which is exactly picking building over killing. 

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His insult to her isn' t a rationalization for why she hates him. They are an angry answer to her insults. Just like Kaladin and Shallan counter eachothers insults when they dislike eachother in WoR. 

This is the scene:

"Jasnah I was told I could find you here"

"Remind me to find whoever told you and have them hanged"

Amaram stiffened "Could we speak together more privately, just for a moment?"

"I think not"

"We need to discuss your uncle. The rift between our houses serves nobody. I wish to bridge that chasm, and Dalinar listened to you. Please Jasnah. You can steer him properly" (ignoring the reality that the rift is from him betraying Dalinar and Kaladin. Jasnah is a special person. She should understand and do what Amaram suggests)

"My uncle knows his own mind on these matters, and doesn't require me to steer him" (disputes delusion. Dalinar's feelings towards Amaram are correct. This threatened Amaram's delusion)

"As if you haven't been doing so already, Jasnah. Everyong can see that he has started to share your religious beliefs" (rationalize it away. Jasnah is corrupting Dalinar. That is why he won't work with Amaram. Jasnah doesn't understand because she is a heretic. Delusion validated)

"Which would be incredible, since I don't have religious beliefs" 

"Please, private?" (ignores protest that disputes delusion)

"Not a chance Meridas. Go. Away"

"We were close once" (she was the one that changed, not him. She is the problem. She should go back to how it was. Rationalization)

"My father wished us to be close. Do not mistake his fancies for fact" (Gavilar supported Amaram's delusion. Amaram the savior of the world, married to the daughter of the most important man in the world)

"You really should leave before somebody gets hurt"

"We thought you were dead. I needed to see for myself that you are well" (trying to rationalize wanting to speak to her privately was for concern for her. The is disputed in this very conversation because he already said he was trying to get her to convince Dalinar for him. when she disputed and threatened his delusion, he changed tactics. Now he is a caring ex lover worrying for her safety.)

"You have seen. Now leave"

"Why, Jasnah? Why have you always denied me?" (now that it is clear his worry is a lie, it is she denies him. Again her fault. Not anything he has done)

"Other than the fact that you are a detestable buffoon who achieves only the lowest level of mediocrity as it is the best your limited mind can imagine? I can't possibly think of a reason" (Jasnah calls Amaram stupid and says that is the reason. that threatens his delusion)

"Mediocre?" Amaram growled "You insult my mother, Jasnah. You know how hard she worked to raise me to be the best soldier this kingdom has ever know" (oh look at that! anger and rage at the delusion being repeatedly threatened. But again it is not a failing of his, he brings up his mother. Jasnah calling him stupid is saying his mother did something wrong. And again to reinforce that grandiose fantasy, she worked to make him the best soldier this kingdom has ever known)

"Yes, from what I understand, she spent the seven months she was with child entertaining each and every military man she could find, in the hopes that something of them would stick to you" (attacked delusion directly. Amaram is running out of ways to rationalize......)

"You godless whore" Amaram hissed "If you weren't a woman..." (ah so it is because she is a heretic. Her lacking god is the reason she is this way. naturally she would act this way towards the paragon of alethi virtues)

"if I weren't a woman, I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation. Unless I were a pig. Then you'd be doubly interested" (oh look. no way around that. shes calling amaram a .......... lol. so what does amaram do when his delusion is threatened and there is no way to rationalize it away?)

"he thrust his hand to the side, stepping back, preparing to summon his blade" (he attacks)

jasnah smiled, holding her freehand toward him, letting stormlight curl and rise from it "oh, please do, meridas. give me an excuse. I dare you" (oh look, a situation he cannot kill, bury, or avoid. so what does he do?)

"he spun and stalked from the room, shoulders hunched as if trying to shrug away the eyes - and the snickers -  of the scholars

 

So again, to me, narcissistic personality disorder

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That doesn' t change the fact that she is negatively biased. She only speaks of his bad sides. We don' t need a witness that tells us Amaram has done bad things, because we know he has. The more interesting witness is the one without a bias, but with knowledge. Sadly we don' t have one of those. 

Because no witness is without bias. It is a literal impossibility. What we can do however, is take demonstrable evidence as fact. You can say I have a bias towards the shooter because he killed someone I loved, but when we have clear evidence he shot again, then my testimony sets precedent and is used in court. This is real law in real life. 

 

 

At the end of the day this is a thread called "the most disliked stormlight character". Amaram is my most disliked stormlight character. Another poster said that the scenes in the book was enough for them for Amaram. I agreed. I stated the scenes we have showed Amaram to me to be an individual with narcissistic personality disorder. You clearly disagree which is your right. But so is it my right to say I think he is a narcissist based on my reading, and in a thread that asks who you dislike most, I can say I dislike him most. As we have spoken in the past, I would like to do a thread where I go over every single line of Amaram to get a full picture of him. Unfortunately I have not had the time yet, but I think you can get a pretty good image how it will develop as I have referenced the book in every comment I have made. You again are certainly entitled to disagree, but I think the scenes we have support it. I have made abundantly clear why on a page where people can say who they dislike, why I dislike Amaram. At this stage what would you like to do? We both know we do not agree on just about every level with Amaram. So do you want to continue, or agree to disagree?

Edited by Pathfinder
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24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

At the end of the day this is a thread called "the most disliked stormlight character". Amaram is my most disliked stormlight character. Another poster said that the scenes in the book was enough for them for Amaram. I agreed. I stated the scenes we have showed Amaram to me to be an individual with narcissistic personality disorder. You clearly disagree which is your right. But so is it my right to say I think he is a narcissist based on my reading, and in a thread that asks who you dislike most, I can say I dislike him most. As we have spoken in the past, I would like to do a thread where I go over every single line of Amaram to get a full picture of him. Unfortunately I have not had the time yet, but I think you can get a pretty good image how it will develop as I have referenced the book in every comment I have made. You again are certainly entitled to disagree, but I think the scenes we have support it. I have made abundantly clear why on a page where people can say who they dislike, why I dislike Amaram. At this stage what would you like to do? We both know we do not agree on just about every level with Amaram. So do you want to continue, or agree to disagree?

I have things I could say about your arguments, as I do feel that you are misinterpreting me on certain points (for example, I have made it quite clear that I have not given you an exact answer of when Amaram joined Odium because there isn’t an official answer for it, and the only thing we have is guesses). You also state that you feel like I am ignoring evidence that shows Amaram as a narcissist (I hate attempting to spell that word by the way) and maybe I am. I am certainly biased for Amaram. My reading of his character has always been that of the tragic villain, and spending so much time defending a character like I have with Amaram defenitely makes me attached to him. However I feel like you are ignoring evidence in the same way that you feel that I do. 
 

In the end, I think it is quite clear that there are at least two valid positions to take on Amaram. Yours and mine (and I do think that you are making a good case). And I also know that there are people who share your view, and people who share mine. At the end of the day, I agree that we should agree to disagree. I know Brandon has said that he is all for that readers interpret his stories in various ways, and I think that is the right way to look at things. Amaram is the deluded narcissistic villain in your interpretation, and the tragic misguided general in mine. And that is the beauty of stories, isn’t it? 
 

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion, and good luck with your Amaram thread. I might do one myself at some point, which I think I have spoken to you about. But I have never gotten to it. 

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After our previous experience in this thread I want to say that zhis is how forum discussions should be. Good job :)

 

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Other - Ialai.  She's as bad as Sadeas, only still alive.

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16 minutes ago, Lidolas said:

Other - Ialai.  She's as bad as Sadeas, only still alive.

Ya, but at least she mourns Sadeas. I think that he might do the same for her, but we don't see that. Makes her slightly better than Sadeas imo.

There is something to respect in a person committed to another with that level of loyalty, even if the object of their loyalty is kinda a slime-ball.

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion, and good luck with your Amaram thread. I might do one myself at some point, which I think I have spoken to you about. But I have never gotten to it. 

And good luck to you as well. Who knows? Maybe when we see Jasnah's flashback chapters we will learn more about Amaram and find out once and for all. 

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I do want to add (after not commenting on this thread for months) that I absolutely LOVE Lift and Lopen. I know that isn’t the most popular opinion, but I really think they are hilarious and intriguing characters. While both of them spend a lot of time acting like complete dorks, they really have some of the kindest and most touching actions in the books. I love the scene where Lopen tries (in his own silly way) to comfort an injured man. And the fact that Lift went and HUGGED Nale after he had tried to kill her and had killed countless others is just incredible. Also her back story is just so dang intriguing that I always want to know more. 

Although they don’t always show it, they are some of the most noble characters in the series.

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2 hours ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

I do want to add (after not commenting on this thread for months) that I absolutely LOVE Lift and Lopen. I know that isn’t the most popular opinion, but I really think they are hilarious and intriguing characters. While both of them spend a lot of time acting like complete dorks, they really have some of the kindest and most touching actions in the books. I love the scene where Lopen tries (in his own silly way) to comfort an injured man. And the fact that Lift went and HUGGED Nale after he had tried to kill her and had killed countless others is just incredible. Also her back story is just so dang intriguing that I always want to know more.

Generally speaking, it's been my observation that the same people who dislike them are the same ones who get annoyed by Wayne. I suspect it's because they bring levity to an otherwise serious story and some people find it jarring or distracting. I personally love all of them. ;)

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15 hours ago, Solant said:

Generally speaking, it's been my observation that the same people who dislike them are the same ones who get annoyed by Wayne. I suspect it's because they bring levity to an otherwise serious story and some people find it jarring or distracting. I personally love all of them. ;)

Totally agree, I also love Wayne. One thing Brandon does so well is that each of these characters is much deeper than they appear. But I digress, since I should be talking about characters I don’t like.

For the sake of conversation I’ll add Gaz as a character I’m not super fond of. The reason being how his transition from an antagonistic bridge commander to potential squire of Shallan is written. My reasoning is complicated, so here me out. I don’t hate the idea that he can change, the series is all about that so it’s fine.

My problem is not that he changes in motivation, actions, morals, whatever. My issue is that the whole thing seems so... unnatural. Random with no foreshadowing. And it’s like he’s an entirely different person and personality when we meet him in WOR. So much so that I kinda suspected for a bit that he was a Kandra (I think I found some things that make me doubt that but it’s been awhile so I don’t remember). So yeah, his character kinda threw me off (especially in WOR).

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15 hours ago, Solant said:

Generally speaking, it's been my observation that the same people who dislike them are the same ones who get annoyed by Wayne. I suspect it's because they bring levity to an otherwise serious story and some people find it jarring or distracting. I personally love all of them. ;)

For me personally the reason I'm on the fence for characters like Lift and Wayne and dislike characters like Lopen is that their humor just doesn't hit for me.  I think based on various podcasts and other events, Sanderson has said that this is the style of humor that he likes.  This and the puns.  For me, it's a little too on the nose.  I think he's even mentioned that he understands most people do not share his sense of humor and he intentionally tries to limit it in his books.

With Lift and Wayne, they do have this annoying sense of humor but they also have other character traits that balance it out.  Also, every now and again their jokes are at least a little funny.  With Lopen, it feels like the more we've gotten to know him the worse he gets with the overly corny humor.  It's like the more you peel back the layers the more of it that comes out.  

So, I guess to sum it up I think it's not that they bring some levity or comedic relief, it's that their style of comedy doesn't work for us.  

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I guess I'm lucky that Sanderson's humor apparently is very similar to mine ;)

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40 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

For the sake of conversation I’ll add Gaz as a character I’m not super fond of. The reason being how his transition from an antagonistic bridge commander to potential squire of Shallan is written. My reasoning is complicated, so here me out. I don’t hate the idea that he can change, the series is all about that so it’s fine.

My problem is not that he changes in motivation, actions, morals, whatever. My issue is that the whole thing seems so... unnatural. Random with no foreshadowing. And it’s like he’s an entirely different person and personality when we meet him in WOR. So much so that I kinda suspected for a bit that he was a Kandra (I think I found some things that make me doubt that but it’s been awhile so I don’t remember). So yeah, his character kinda threw me off (especially in WOR).

It think we are due for a Gaz and or Vhatha POV chapter. I'm hoping that this POV would help clear up some of these changes. Honestly his changes is pretty similar to the bridgemen, and we bought into those because we got to see all of it happen. If we could see it referenced in a POV, we could at least assume that he went through a similar change offscreen.

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14 minutes ago, Config2 said:

It think we are due for a Gaz and or Vhatha POV chapter. I'm hoping that this POV would help clear up some of these changes. Honestly his changes is pretty similar to the bridgemen, and we bought into those because we got to see all of it happen. If we could see it referenced in a POV, we could at least assume that he went through a similar change offscreen.

I think you are totally right. Bridge 4 members are definitely very similar in their transformations. But like you said, they have POV chapters that take us into their heads and help us understand the shift. It would be nice to have this with Vhatha and Gaz (although for whatever reason I really like Vhatha’s character)

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58 minutes ago, agrabes said:

With Lift and Wayne, they do have this annoying sense of humor but they also have other character traits that balance it out.  Also, every now and again their jokes are at least a little funny.  With Lopen, it feels like the more we've gotten to know him the worse he gets with the overly corny humor.  It's like the more you peel back the layers the more of it that comes out.  

This. I actually really enjoy Wayne, and Lift does have interesting things beyond being comic relief. But Lopen... that is the only thing he is. We have had him around for three books, and the only thing we learned about him is that he likes to fool around and has a ton of cousins (the last one being one of the Lopen-jokes I like). 
 

I really look forward to see more of Herdazian Houdini aka the Herdazian General. So that we can get a different perspective on Herdazians than just Lopen.

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1 hour ago, agrabes said:

With Lift and Wayne, they do have this annoying sense of humor but they also have other character traits that balance it out.  Also, every now and again their jokes are at least a little funny.  With Lopen, it feels like the more we've gotten to know him the worse he gets with the overly corny humor.  It's like the more you peel back the layers the more of it that comes out.  

I agree. I actually enjoyed Wayne quite a bit while reading Mistborn, but Lopen, I really just don't like him. Lift I find acceptable, though a bit hard to read at times. 

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3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This. I actually really enjoy Wayne, and Lift does have interesting things beyond being comic relief. But Lopen... that is the only thing he is. We have had him around for three books, and the only thing we learned about him is that he likes to fool around and has a ton of cousins (the last one being one of the Lopen-jokes I like). 

But... but... the end of Oathbringer! He’s hanging around a medical tent just to try to visit and cheer up those who are injured! All his jokes are so he can try to help people get through terrible times! I mean, I know this is your opinion and everything, but I think there is more to his character than just jokes.

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10 hours ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

 

But... but... the end of Oathbringer! He’s hanging around a medical tent just to try to visit and cheer up those who are injured! All his jokes are so he can try to help people get through terrible times! I mean, I know this is your opinion and everything, but I think there is more to his character than just jokes.

I honestly forgot about that, so thanks for the reminder. I would say though, the Lift and Wayne are more well-developed than he is (which isn’t strange, since they are main characters). Most of what you see with Lopen is the jokes. With Lift, you still see a lost child, and with Wayne you still see guilt and loneliness. With Lopen, you see jokes 95% of the time, which I feel is too much.

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22 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

With Lopen, you see jokes 95% of the time, which I feel is too much.

I think it is more because we see him from kaladin's perspective and Lopen has not got as much pov chapters as lift or wayne.. 

Totally agreed @Obnoxiousspren I had felt that there is some depth to him after all when i read this scene..

I would not be surprised if by SA4 lopen is running around having one-armed soldiers as his potential squires.. I think that there is depth to him which he tries to hide behind all the jokes..

Also, I would like to point out that Kaladin had entrusted Elhokar, King of Alethkar to Lopen, that shows the level of trust Kaladin puts in him.. 

Edited by The traveller
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1 hour ago, The traveller said:

I would not be surprised if by SA4 lopen is running around having one-armed soldiers as his potential squires.. I think that there is depth to him which he tries to hide behind all the jokes..

Seems likely to me that he'll be doing that or something similar.

Honestly, Zigsil asks Kaladin a bunch of questions in OB about how the radiants are supposed to work, and I was a little disappointed we don't get some resolution on that. There will have to be some discussion on what their place in the world is. Now that we have multiple radiants, we'll hopefully see some different approaches being tried.

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3 hours ago, The traveller said:

I think it is more because we see him from kaladin's perspective and Lopen has not got as much pov chapters as lift or wayne.. 

Totally agreed @Obnoxiousspren I had felt that there is some depth to him after all when i read this scene..

I would not be surprised if by SA4 lopen is running around having one-armed soldiers as his potential squires.. I think that there is depth to him which he tries to hide behind all the jokes..

Also, I would like to point out that Kaladin had entrusted Elhokar, King of Alethkar to Lopen, that shows the level of trust Kaladin puts in him.. 

If we did see Lopen running around with a band of one-armed soldiers as his potential squires, that would be yet another bad joke.  There may be depth to Lopen, but so far the more depth we see the more corny jokes we see.  His entire character concept seems to be a gag - the idea that he has dozens of cousins with random jokey jobs, the idea that someohow he never saw himself as having only one arm because he's just too stubborn and dumb to internalize the difference, etc.  If it works for you, hey that's cool.  I'm not going to say remove him from the story, but the humor does not work for me.

I will add that I'm a little bit of a grinch when it comes to Bridge 4 though - even if we did one day find that Lopen is actually a very cool character that hides his insecurities with bad humor or something like that, I probably won't like it.  I didn't like the Teft arc in OB, even though I actually like Teft as a character.  It just seemed unnecessary.  Rock is the only one from Bridge 4 that I would be interested in learning more about for his own sake.  Though if there was an arc where Lopen learns to stop being a walking talking bad joke, that might actually be interesting and even funny.  Maybe he becomes a lightweaver and his truth is that he is not funny, that he's making up all this crap in an attempt to be funny, and he needs to knock it off and become a normal human lol.  Now that would be a side story I could appreciate.

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7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I honestly forgot about that, so thanks for the reminder. I would say though, the Lift and Wayne are more well-developed than he is (which isn’t strange, since they are main characters). Most of what you see with Lopen is the jokes. With Lift, you still see a lost child, and with Wayne you still see guilt and loneliness. With Lopen, you see jokes 95% of the time, which I feel is too much.

That’s fair, you do have to kind of fill in the blanks with Lopen since he has much less screen time and POV dedicated to him. It’s definitely less obvious with him that he has a deeper side than it is with Wayne or Lift.

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@agrabes each to its own indeed.. 

I really don’t see what could be seen wrong in a person trying to make physically handicapped people like him into his squires in the hope that they might heal themselves.. The fact that he lost his arm and was able to heal it because he had never accepted the loss, seems perfectly normal to me. We don’t know how long he was one armed. And I think people who develop a handicap later and are not born with it, always have difficulty adjusting and accepting the loss. 
But I like the idea that the one armed soldiers become his apprentices but not all of them are able to grow back their lost limbs.. 

I don’t particularly like his humour either.. I am often left bemused by his humour but I still do not dislike him and find myself intrigued by his over the top antics..

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