[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Jenet]

I think the reason why so many dislike Shallan is that we get to follow her through her every struggle without seeing what she will become yet. It's always painful to struggle when you have the kind of background, disorders and at the same time responsibilities as she has. At the age of 17.

If we had to go through everything that Dalinar did as a young man, through three huge books before we got to learn how all his struggles ended up in a complex, powerful and wise leader, we would have hated him as well. I just love how Sanderson forces us to live through some of the pain his characters have to go through, feeling the awkwardness, uncertainty, stupid choices and even how they at times are influenced by evil forces. And he often tells their story seen through unreliable eyes. Even Shallan's point of view is unreliable. She is a very harsh judge of herself. I think that Wit is the most reliable judge of her character. He is also a lightweaver, and understands the mind of an artist. Also, he is able to let her see her worth. For the first time. In the chapter "The girl who stood up".

Shallan is the one who is subtly pushing everybody around her to become better persons, even though they don't realize it themselves. Even most readers fail to recognize her huge impact on the morale of the protagonists, and even on some of the villains that she fails to save. She does it through her art, or her "Lies" as more Honor influenced persons will call them. But she does not lie. She changes reality, just like good art sometimes does.

I find it extremely interesting how she influences so many people and helps them become better persons. She even tries to influence Kaladin by pushing on his self centredness (if that is a word). I don't think she can help it, it is in her nature to be a mirror, one people can see themselves in, for better of for worse. Often, she lets them see a glorified version, like Elhokar, Bluth, Gaz or Vatha. Because they need it to see that they can change to the better. Kaladin does not need to see a glorified version of himself. He needs to see that he is extremely self centered, and that is causing a whole lot of trouble for him. Yes, he is a protector, and he is a very good person. But his self centeredness is in my opinion what is holding him back from swearing his next ideal. And Shallan is the only one who is instinctly seeing that, and trying to poke him out of it. She actually manages a little bit while in the chasms. He then sometimes shows a tiny little bit of self irony, which would be very healthy for him if he had managed to continue. It would in fact also help him when his depression tries to crush him.

In order to change, one must first see that the image one has of oneself might be wrong. And that it is possible to change. Shallan is a powerful catalyst, and she is not aware of it herself. And we, as readers, only get her story told by her, which is not very reliable. Because her image of herself is wrong. She needs another lightweaver to see it. Wit.

Here is a list of other characters Shallan influences for the better, and possibly saves:

Adolin : gets to value his self more, and stops seeing himself as just a fop and a ladies man, but as a person with wits, heart and wisdom.

Jasnah: is forced to see the world in a less absolute way. This might help her becoming more relaxed and obtain a little more inner peace.

Tvlakv: He is still a jerk, but he became a more decent jerk for a short time at least. Who knows, perhaps it had some permanent effects?

Bluth: Bluth actually redeemed himself before he died, because of Shallan's influence.

Her "slaves": She saved them from slavery, and employed them, with the intent of helping them to become free men if they wish to.

Vatha: He was a harsh leader of a deserter gang, possibly rapist and murderer, and she influences him to become a knight radiant.

Gaz: He used to be a mean jerk, now he is trying all his best to be a good guy.

Vatha's other gang members: A gang of strange low status weirdos that she never gives up. I wonder what they will become? Hopefully her squires. Artists may seem a bit weird to others. VERY weird to many, it seems.

The members of Tyn's caravan: Well, she basically saves their lives. She literally saves lives all the time, and it is seldom appreciated by readers. I find it so strange.

Her brothers: She saves their positions, their lives and their sanity on several occations. Often by subtly making them realize their own potential.

Elhokar: He holds her drawing of him in his hand when he finally gets around to try to swear his first ideal. Kaladin never agreed to try to help Elhokar to become a better person, even when he was asked. Inadvertently he did anyway, by telling Elhokar that he was a bad king. Honesty was perhaps what the king first needed. But then he needed some inspiration. He got it from the artist.

Kaladin: She saves Kaladin's life many times, often literally, but she also takes away some of his darkness when he his depressed, just like his brother the lightweaver also did. And she tries to poke him out of his self centered vicious circle, although it seems to not work. At least not yet.

 I must say that I very much look forward to see what Shallan will end up as, Might be awesome. And then we will have lived through the whole mess of becoming awesome. Because it always is a mess becoming larger than life. 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Jenet

[+Bliev]

@Jenet *enter all of the applause memes here*
 

I concur. With all of this. It’s beautiful.

[Karger]

19 hours ago, Jenet said:

Tvlakv: He is still a jerk, but he became a more decent jerk for a short time at least. Who knows, perhaps it had some permanent effects?

I did not catch this one

19 hours ago, Jenet said:

Gaz: He used to be a mean jerk, now he is trying all his best to be a good guy.

Radiant Gaz!  He will someday save the world!

In all seriousness great job with the analysis. 

[Jenet]

Thank you guys! Being a Shallan is not always easy, so praise is always very welcome.

I have to add a huge piece that I forgot in my first post.

Her work as the intelligence officer for the Radiants. She is actually so undercover that nobody else knows, apart from her squires. Which may be a good idea, for we do not know who of the radiants is a traitor to the others, as the Diagram says.

The most important thing for a general is to know one's enemies. Despite that, Dalinar never actually empoyed spies, as far as we know. The Alethi intelligence organization seems to have been Ialai Sadeas' network of spies, and also Jasnah's jumbled network of assassins and scholars all over the world. And Navani's cunning when it comes to court gossip and intrigues. But they have no one who can go out among the enemy's troops and literally be accepted as one of them, and perhaps even over time take over as their leader. Apart from the lightweaver.

I think it is very likely that Shallan will end up as the leader of the Ghostbloods, and what an intelligence organisation Dalinar will have then! And wherever she actually ends up, her contact with them serves the Radiants very well, for they are extremely powerful and knowledgable. It is likely that we have no clue yet how far their knowledge and understanding of the Rosharan conflict extends.

Because of Shallan's illusions and her ablility to use her Transformation abilities to change people, she is able to infiltrate whatever organisation she wants to. Also the singers, perhaps even the Fused.  Imagine the power of this tool for Dalinar. He himself is unable to make use of anything that is undercover, he reacts strongly against anything that may fool people. Kaladin is the same, it is even difficult to make an illusion stick to him. Very honorable, but not useful if you really wish to find out what the enemy is up to. 

Also, in order to get someone over to your side, you need to understand them, maybe take their side a little, as Kaladin does with the singers. This almost breaks him. He cannot handle this confusing concept that the enemy might be good persons worthy of protecting, and he loses his direction.

Shallan never had that kind of absolute direction. She sees the world in colorful diversity and variation. For what is a lie, and what is art? What is transformation or useful change? 

I think Shallan might be changing Mraize and Iyatil already, They are very impressed with her. I am looking very much forward to see what is happening there.

Edit: My description here of the difficulties of meeting your friends as enemies in a battle is way too simplistic, and I apologize. But this topic will need another very interesting discussion to cover more decently. Another time.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Jenet

[Karger]

11 hours ago, Jenet said:

The most important thing for a general is to know one's enemies. Despite that, Dalinar never actually empoyed spies, as far as we know

He does.  Remember the coachmen who traveled with Wit and Taln?  Also employing spies is a women thing(intelligence gathering usually requires someone writing reports).

11 hours ago, Jenet said:

I think it is very likely that Shallan will end up as the leader of the Ghostbloods, and what an intelligence organisation Dalinar will have then!

Shallan is good.  I have no idea if she is that good.  Also we have no idea how promotion works in their organization. 

[Jenet]

12 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

He does.  Remember the coachmen who traveled with Wit and Taln?  Also employing spies is a women thing(intelligence gathering usually requires someone writing reports).

Shallan is good.  I have no idea if she is that good.  Also we have no idea how promotion works in their organization. 

I'm sorry, I was not very precise when it comes to Dalinar. I agree that he sometimes uses spies or other undercover operations, but he hasn't got a specific organization that is set up for systematically mapping his enemies' operations and plans. And according to Shallan, he does not like "fooling people", so I guess he does not think the same way as she does. She intuitively knows how to blend in with entirely different people from herself, and to change her whole personality, even to that terrible lady of the Rockfall mansion. And she has just started, fumbling her way, exploring her abilities as she jumps from mortal danger to mortal danger.

I agree that we have no idea how the Ghostbloods organisation works, nor if Shallan is so good that she is able to take over in any way. You never know with Sanderson, and that is most of the fun, isn't it? But I like to explore the extreme possibilities of a line of logic. Unless you try that, you never get the whole picture of what is possible. And I think Shallan shows all signs of being able to develop into something that powerful.

- She is very young and inexperienced, hurt, and totally mangled psychologically, and still she has delivered remarkable results up to now.

- As a trainer, I know how young, promising people can develop into very impressive athletes or powerful leaders. Even youths with difficult backgrounds, who really struggle and appear quite clumsy and rather painful to watch can surprise you. And Shallan has that kind of spark that I see in those youngsters who has become stars when they grow up.

- We know that Mr Sanderson likes and is influenced by both the Wheel of TIme and Dune. In both of those series, we follow a woman that is trained by our protagonists who ends up as the leader of an enemy organisation, or at least a hugely powerful organisation that makes all kinds of trouble for our hero. So if Shallan ends up doing something similar, it will not be something new.

On the other hand, Sanderson likes to be original, and often surprises us, and I love that, so something altogether different probably will happen. And I will welcome it.

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Jenet said:

I'm sorry, I was not very precise when it comes to Dalinar. I agree that he sometimes uses spies or other undercover operations, but he hasn't got a specific organization that is set up for systematically mapping his enemies' operations and plans.

Jasnah does and I think he relies on her for that kind of thing.

9 minutes ago, Jenet said:

And according to Shallan, he does not like "fooling people", so I guess he does not think the same way as she does

Agreed.

9 minutes ago, Jenet said:

I agree that we have no idea how the Ghostbloods organisation works, nor if Shallan is so good that she is able to take over in any way.

We also know that they are a worldhopping organization so it is doubtful that their headquarters is located on Roshar at all.  I agree she might rise in their orginizaton but I also kind of want her to destroy it(or at least the local branch of it)

11 minutes ago, Jenet said:

- As a trainer, I know how young, promising people can develop into very impressive athletes or powerful leaders. Even youths with difficult backgrounds, who really struggle and appear quite clumsy and rather painful to watch can surprise you. And Shallan has that kind of spark that I see in those youngsters who has become stars when they grow up.

Cool!

[Jenet]

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

We also know that they are a worldhopping organization so it is doubtful that their headquarters is located on Roshar at all.  I agree she might rise in their orginizaton but I also kind of want her to destroy it(or at least the local branch of it)

Yes, but the organisation that was conquered by placing a woman of "our side" on the enemy top leader's chair in "Dune" was spread over so many planets that nobody has any idea how big it was. (Trying not to spoil too much for those who have not read all of that series.) When facing a very strong enemy organisation, resistance can seem very futile indeed, especially when you don't even know how strong or huge it is. But changing it from the inside may be possible if you can place a powerful and influential person inside it. And Shallan has shown that she is very influential ideed, at only 17, completely without any experience apart from her family and her books. 

As Shallan manages to change Vatha's gang without any experience at all, she might very well be able to turn the Ghostbloods into something radiant, or at least useful for them, with a little more training. And she seems to be able to do that training all by herself.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Jenet

[Frustration]

On 10/3/2018 at 1:15 AM, Jenet said:

I cannot understand how people think Shallan fails to do something impressive. Let me make a list:

- She turns Tvlakv, Bluth, Vatha, Gaz, and their companions around from being murderers and robbers into being heros. These are people whom Kaladin only managed to make even worse. Kaladin was a slave, true, but Shallan was a lone, wounded woman in the wastelands, without any resources that she knew of. And she managed to make Tvalkv listen to her and transport her, willingly, to the shattered plains, Gaz was turned into a positive, happy servant instead of an angry gameoholic. Vatha is actually starting to lightweave on his obvious way to being a knight radiant. Saved from being an obvious outlaw, possibly murderer and rapist for what we know.

- She turns almost everyone she meets into a better version of themselves. Elhokar gets a new and optimistic view on himself because of her drawing of him. If she had been able to do that earlier, it may have gotten him to say his words earlier and thus saved him.

- She turns Adolin into a more interesting person, because she is able to see his intelligence that he has hidden under his good looks and dueling capacity. Many people that are popular hide their intelligence both to themselves and to others. Perhaps in order to at least have some friends. Adolin is almost shocked out of this hiding by Shallan's brutal honesty and bluntness. She is not able to stop her quips, and that is what gets him out of his two-dimensional state. "How do you poop?"

- She saves the day so many times. She finds Urithiru, and saves thousands of people, including most of our heros. She upholds the Sadeas army until help comes from Urithiru in the battle of Thaylen City. If it wasn't for her, the Sadeas army would have swarmed the city and killed many, among them Queen Fen and her consort, and Navani. 

- She saves Kaladin and herself in the chasms. She lends Kaladin her shardblade, even though she is mortally arfraid of even admitting that she carries the blade that killed her mother. And she distracts the chasmfiend to save Kaladin while he was disarmed and beaten by the monster. She also climbs up and digs out the cubby that saves them, and both physically and mentally drags Kaladin the last bit up to it. And she gets them out, because of her ability to remember patterns and extrapolate from limited information.

- She gives Kaladin hope when she shows him that it is possible to carry on and see the positive side of things even if your world and your self has been crushed. "She smiled anyway"

- Her sense of pattern recognition, of course assisted by Pattern is crucial for a lot of the studies that has been necessary for progress. For instance her extrapolating the pattern of the shattered plains to find the centre.

- Her kindness to the poor is heart warming. It is not her fault that evil people controls a criminal system that she is not aware of. As a rape victim is not to blame for the crime, Shallan is not to blame for the killing of Grund. People around a rape victim often start to blame her for what happened, but the rapist is the only one to blame. SO, we must not be fooled by the fact that many of the poor people she gave food to blames her. They are afraid and desperate, and need someone to be angry at. I require of the reader to be so mature as to see that even though everyone, even Shallan herself, blames her for what happened, it is completely unfair. She was trying to help, and that is kind.

- She manages to spy and find out many important things: She infliltrates the Cult of Moments and finds out about the Heart of the Revel, and how things actually stand around the oathgate of Kholinar. She investigates and finds out the logic of The Midnight Mother, and even finds out where she is located, and frightens her off. She also studies the currupted spren and finds out about Sja-Anat and how she may be willing to betray Odium. She is perhaps the only one of our protagonists who consistently uncovers new information. When Jasnah arrives at Urithiru, she is surprised that all her own investigation is obsolete because of Shallan's work.

- She also infiltrates the Ghostbloods, very risky and without knowing anything more about them than that they killed Jasnah, as far as she knew. She instinctly knows that she can get valuable information through that organisation. And because of this very dangerous double agent activity, she is able to save her brothers, get more info about the clandestine organisations that our alliance are struggling with in order to unite Roshar against Odium. Dalinar and Kaladin, yes even Jasnah are completely unaware of many of the things Mraize knows. To be able to stand alone as a secret double agent like this is very, very brave.

- She literally saves Kaladin, Adolin and Azure after they fall into Shadesmar, and gets them to safe ground. She also saves them many times during their trip through Shadesmar, and delays the attack of the fused at the oathgate of Thaylen City. Delaying tactics are often very important, and this time it may have saved Adolin's life, as he probably would have been wounded long before, and not being able to survive until Dalinar set up his perpendicularity.

- She actually helps Jasnah in her studies, and also helps Jasnah see things in a more positive way. Jasnah is horribly alone with her thoughts and theories. Shallan belives in Jasnah's theories and supports her. This may not seem so important as many people believe Jasnah is a machine of some sorts, but she is not.

- We often see Shallan through the eyes of Kaladin and Jasnah. These are not very trustworthy when it comes to judging such a person as Shallan. We know that honorspren and cryptics are at odds with each other, and windrunners are much too bound by oaths and box-thinking around the truth to understand how a lightweaver might get to an even more real truth by using "lies". Jasnah is perhaps even more bound by strict logical thinking. Wit understands Shallan's artistic approach to the truth fully. We are more helped by trusting Wit's words in judging Shallan. 

Jasnah does not understand how Shallan has trouble concentrating immediately after Shallan has 1) relived her killing of her mother, that she had managed to supress, and 2) confronted and chased away the Midnight frickin Mother. How can we possibly trust Jasnah's judgement of Shallan? 

Kaladin is angry, depressed and prone to resentment. His good opinion once lost, is lost forever. In addition, Shallan's artistic side is drawn towards his good looks and dramatic appearance. This makes Shallan a very confusing person to judge for him. It does not mean that we should completely trust Kaladin's opinion of her either. 

I could sit her all day and list Shallans positive sides, but I am sure more of you are able to see these if you try. It is a useful exercise in seeing through biases.

Just because she solves problems doesn't mean she's a good character, She could easily be written out and on my opinion the story would improve. Write Kaladin out and you lose so much reader investment, write Dalinar out and Oathbringer might as well not exsist. write Shallan out and WoR might have more interest to me, of all my favorite scenes in the series NONE of them are about Shallan: Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin, Szeth, and Lift all have amazing scenes even outside their respective books, the closest thing I have with Shallan is the Midnight Mother and that isn't even that good.

Shallan also just doesn't deal with Trauma in any way I recognize, She finds out her friend KILLED her brother and she does nothing about it, If she were hiding it I would at least expect her to stop talking to Kal but she just shrugs it off like no big deal despite the fact that it is played and honestly should crush her but it playes no part of the narrative other than dialog.

[Karger]

24 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Shallan also just doesn't deal with Trauma in any way I recognize, She finds out her friend KILLED her brother and she does nothing about it, If she were hiding it I would at least expect her to stop talking to Kal but she just shrugs it off like no big deal despite the fact that it is played and honestly should crush her but it playes no part of the narrative other than dialog.

That is an effective and real world copping mechanism.  It is also a fairly common one.  For example when I got a bad grade on a test my natural inclination was not to look at that test but instead hide it away in the back of a folder with the vague promise to look at it "latter."  She will never learn from her experiences until she can confront them.  That is a natural part of her character arc.

27 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

the closest thing I have with Shallan is the Midnight Mother and that isn't even that good.

That scene is KA!  Shallan defeating a demon by going mean girls on it was amazing!

28 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Write Kaladin out and you lose so much reader investment

But think how much less anxiety we would all feel.

29 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

write Dalinar out and Oathbringer might as well not exsist. write

Well yeah, he is the main character!

29 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

write Shallan out and WoR might have more interest to me,

Really?  The ghoostbloods and the hunt for the oathgate do not interest you at all?  You do not find Pattern adorable?

 

[Frustration]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Really?  The ghoostbloods and the hunt for the oathgate do not interest you at all?  You do not find Pattern adorable?

 

I never said I hated Pattern, I wasn't hugely interested in the Oathgate I was more fixated on Dalinar's politics, and Kaladin and Szeth's impending showdown.

Edit

11 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

That is an effective and real world copping mechanism.  It is also a fairly common one.  For example when I got a bad grade on a test my natural inclination was not to look at that test but instead hide it away in the back of a folder with the vague promise to look at it "latter."  She will never learn from her experiences until she can confront them.  That is a natural part of her character arc.

 

I don't think I've ever met someone who can lie to themselves so completely that they believe it, once again I would understand her refusing to talk to Kal but she instead is somehow capable of holding full conversations with him for the whole book without a hint of resentment.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Booknerd

[+Bliev]

19 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I don't think I've ever met someone who can lie to themselves so completely that they believe it, once again I would understand her refusing to talk to Kal but she instead is somehow capable of holding full conversations with him for the whole book without a hint of resentment.

You probably know plenty of people who do so--it is a fairly common psychological phenomenon, particularly associated with PTSD. Besides, because it's an internal process, you probably wouldn't be privy to their coping mechanisms or what is going on in their head. Shallan is so dissociative with her pain that she literally creates new personas. That's an incredibly severe coping mechanism, so it doesn't surprise me at all that she would compartmentalize her feelings about a man she grew to trust being the very person who has caused her such pain.

I think it's completely reasonable to not care for Shallan's perspective (just like I could do without Kaladin much of the time). But I do know that without each of them, the story suffers. I think that's the key. I find components of the story that I like and attach to in every character, even the ones who aren't my favorites. 

[Karger]

34 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I don't think I've ever met someone who can lie to themselves so completely that they believe it..

It is not so much that she believes it as that she is stubborn in refusing to acknowledge it.  Memories are not accurate.  They are basically guesswork about what you feel is right. If you muddling things up you can actually loose quite a bit.  Also she has a supernatural enhancement in this area.

36 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I would understand her refusing to talk to Kal but she instead is somehow capable of holding full conversations with him for the whole book without a hint of resentment.

She doe slip up occasionally especially in new situations(like with Amaram who she has not been around much).  However yeah I could also walk into a classroom with failing grades and think and talk like I was a perfectly happy B student.

[agrabes]

49 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I never said I hated Pattern, I wasn't hugely interested in the Oathgate I was more fixated on Dalinar's politics, and Kaladin and Szeth's impending showdown.

Edit

I don't think I've ever met someone who can lie to themselves so completely that they believe it, once again I would understand her refusing to talk to Kal but she instead is somehow capable of holding full conversations with him for the whole book without a hint of resentment.

I think that's a bit of a stretch to say she has no resentment.  There have been threads about this kind of stuff before, but if you look you can kind of see behind the curtain with Shallan and her interactions with Kaladin.  She has two feelings about him that she wants to repress, and you see her change after each one is introduced: 1) She realizes that she does have a least a minor attraction to him in early OB but she believes this is wrong because she's engaged to Adolin, 2) She realizes he killed her brother and hates him for it, but also realizes it's not really fair to hate him for it.

After she realizes she has at least some minor attraction to Kaladin, she splits off those feelings into Veil.  This is when you notice that it's suddenly Veil who has this weird kind of attraction to Kaladin, but not "Shallan" or "Radiant."  In WoR, Veil had no attraction to Kaladin.  In the main "Shallan" persona, she is still fond of Kaladin and generally friendly to him, but no longer has any romantic attraction to him.

After she realizes that Kaladin killed her brother, she initially gets really upset.  Then we don't see her for a while and after that she starts in on Kaladin with a lot more mean-spirited "jokes".  She's buried those feelings from her conscious mind because she doesn't want to deal with them, but they leak out in a change in her behavior toward him.

The whole point of her character is that she refuses to admit many things, even to herself.  That makes her interesting to me personally.  You can read between the lines of her actions and there's also the expectation that at some point this is all going to come to a head.  She released maybe 30% of the steam at the end of OB with her "Shallan Council Meeting" to discuss whether she should marry Adolin, but there's a lot of pressure still there.  I think the reason she's struggling so much is because she said her most recent truth without really truly embracing it.  My personal theory is that she either has to work through this all and express her emotions in a healthy way or she's going to totally lose herself and get out of control.  I think either way would be a fun arc to read - it would be super satisfying for her to actually sit down and have an open, meaningful conversation with Kaladin again like she did in WoR.  It would be great for her to talk to Jasnah about how she feels about the power dynamic between them and really express herself.  It would be fun for her to just be 100% real and open with Adolin, which she's never done up to this point.  If she goes dark, it would also be satisfying to read the scenes where the other characters realize she's lost control and how they have to deal with her now.  That they all still love her, but realize she lies to everyone and herself most of all and try to figure out how to help her.

[Gilphon]

Y'know, I never actually connected 'Shallan knows that Kaladin killed her brother' to 'Shallan starts telling more mean-spirited jokes at Kaladin's expense and stops being emotional honest with him' before now. Like, I was fully aware that both things happened, but I never actually connected cause to effect in my mind before. Although it's pretty obvious that that's what's going on once you lay it out like that.

[Jenet]

I find it so interesting to see how many people hate Shallan's ability to suppress things she does not like, and the same people refuse to read the parts of the story that they do not like.

[Jenet]

On 3.1.2020 at 4:34 PM, agrabes said:

I think that's a bit of a stretch to say she has no resentment.  There have been threads about this kind of stuff before, but if you look you can kind of see behind the curtain with Shallan and her interactions with Kaladin.  She has two feelings about him that she wants to repress, and you see her change after each one is introduced: 1) She realizes that she does have a least a minor attraction to him in early OB but she believes this is wrong because she's engaged to Adolin, 2) She realizes he killed her brother and hates him for it, but also realizes it's not really fair to hate him for it.

After she realizes she has at least some minor attraction to Kaladin, she splits off those feelings into Veil.  This is when you notice that it's suddenly Veil who has this weird kind of attraction to Kaladin, but not "Shallan" or "Radiant."  In WoR, Veil had no attraction to Kaladin.  In the main "Shallan" persona, she is still fond of Kaladin and generally friendly to him, but no longer has any romantic attraction to him.

After she realizes that Kaladin killed her brother, she initially gets really upset.  Then we don't see her for a while and after that she starts in on Kaladin with a lot more mean-spirited "jokes".  She's buried those feelings from her conscious mind because she doesn't want to deal with them, but they leak out in a change in her behavior toward him.

The whole point of her character is that she refuses to admit many things, even to herself.  That makes her interesting to me personally.  You can read between the lines of her actions and there's also the expectation that at some point this is all going to come to a head.  She released maybe 30% of the steam at the end of OB with her "Shallan Council Meeting" to discuss whether she should marry Adolin, but there's a lot of pressure still there.  I think the reason she's struggling so much is because she said her most recent truth without really truly embracing it.  My personal theory is that she either has to work through this all and express her emotions in a healthy way or she's going to totally lose herself and get out of control.  I think either way would be a fun arc to read - it would be super satisfying for her to actually sit down and have an open, meaningful conversation with Kaladin again like she did in WoR.  It would be great for her to talk to Jasnah about how she feels about the power dynamic between them and really express herself.  It would be fun for her to just be 100% real and open with Adolin, which she's never done up to this point.  If she goes dark, it would also be satisfying to read the scenes where the other characters realize she's lost control and how they have to deal with her now.  That they all still love her, but realize she lies to everyone and herself most of all and try to figure out how to help her.

Thank you for this post. Very enlightening, and reminds me of a theme I figure Sanderson often comes back to: Passive aggressiveness and resentment.

The villains in "Warbreaker" comes to my mind as the most passive aggressive plot I have ever read.  Shallan definitely has issues with resentment, and she just stoves it away in some compartment of her mind. But things like that never stays completely hidden. Perhaps lying to youself like that is one of the most vile lies there is. Resentment destroys relationships, but it also harms yourself. Resentful people often end up destroyed by bitterness.

I my real life, I have met passive aggressive people who changed almost over night when learning about the harms of what they were doing to themselves and others. Many passive people think they are very peaceful, and not aggressive, but their aggression just comes out in more indirect ways. And often, their aggression turns inward, towards themselves.

I have also met many passive aggressive people who refuse to change. They really think their behavior is not their fault. They blame others for their feelings, and never realize that they can take control over their reactions and behavior, thus freeing themselves from their resentment.

I agree, it will be most interesting to see where Shallan will go. I really hope we will get a lecture in "how to free yourself from your own resentment". Starring Shallan Davar.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Jenet

[+Bliev]

8 hours ago, Jenet said:

I agree, it will be most interesting to see where Shallan will go. I really hope we will get a lecture in "how to free yourself from your own resentment". Starring Shallan Davar.

It fits the theme though doesn’t it? Experiencing your emotions and coping through them is the process—deflecting responsibility is of the enemy. I imagine resentment is one of those Moash-like emotions that Odium feeds off of and that would degrade a Radiant bond like *that*. But Adolin’s resentment of his father’s killing his mom and Shallan’s of Kal could make for an interesting thread line—as Adolin grows closer to Kal as a friend to avoid his father, and Shallan drifts further from him?

Or maybe they’ll both act like mature adults and discuss their mutual resentments and come out stronger on the other side?

(I kid I kid, how unrealistic would THAT be? Haha)

[Jenet]

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

It fits the theme though doesn’t it? Experiencing your emotions and coping through them is the process—deflecting responsibility is of the enemy. I imagine resentment is one of those Moash-like emotions that Odium feeds off of and that would degrade a Radiant bond like *that*. But Adolin’s resentment of his father’s killing his mom and Shallan’s of Kal could make for an interesting thread line—as Adolin grows closer to Kal as a friend to avoid his father, and Shallan drifts further from him?

Or maybe they’ll both act like mature adults and discuss their mutual resentments and come out stronger on the other side?

(I kid I kid, how unrealistic would THAT be? Haha)

Haha, well this is one of the things I love most with Sanderson, that he refrains from the soap opera conflicts that are so easy to imagine, and expects his characters to be grown ups in so many ways. But as you say, resentment is of Odium. And that is why I also often have concerns for Kaladin. He can be very resentful too, but not in the way that Moash does, luckily. It seems... 

[+Bliev]

6 minutes ago, Jenet said:

And that is why I also often have concerns for Kaladin. He can be very resentful too, but not in the way that Moash does, luckily. It seems... 

See that’s one of the main things I think Shallan and Adolin helped him with early on and was the main reason they had to become close (as much as others want to focus on the love triangle that isn’t—I said what I said lol). Kal had to learn that his resentment of light eyes was wrong. He had to progress through that. Just like he had to get over Laral. He harbored too many resentments about them that weren’t fair.

[Jenet]

I've been thinking a lot on this. Resentment and passive aggression. Many of the characters harbor resentment. We have agreed that resentment is of Odium. I've been wondering: What is it that makes our characters succumb to it, and what makes them able to fight Odium in this regard?

I don't know. But I have some ideas. Resentment can come from many things, often from abuse or other situations where you have no choice. You are oppressed and helpless, and your only choice is to find a passive way to channel your aggression. Shallan HAS to do something to her mother and later her father. Killing her mother was an active act of self defence, but killing her father had a bit of passive aggression to it. Her chance of fighting her father directly and winning was like zero, even if the had been able to use her Blade. So she poisoned him and then strangled him when he was helpless. A very cowardly way to kill, you might say, but it's even more cowardly to refuse to do anything and then see your brothers tortured and killed. I think it is impossible to understand the mind of people who have suffered abuse like this during childhood, and how impossible it might seem for them to fight back, or do anything at all to protect themselves. As a child you are completely in the powers of the adult. You have no other choice than to use passive or indirect methods.

So, Shallan has very good reasons why she ends up this passive when it comes to violence. And why she has to become very good at using indirect methods to do good.

Many of the characters that turn out to be evil use their passiveness to do evil. Or they at least struggle with the idea of helping others. They want to help themselves. Often they struggle with jealousy. Let's look at some of them, both good and bad:

Kaladin: Harbors resentment towards lighteyes because of what was done to him and his family. He was unable to do anything, because he was a child, Roshone had absolute power, and his father was too stubborn to move out of harm's way. It's natural to become resentful. But Kaladin never actually does something passive aggressive to others because of this resentment. He tries to help others to have the king killed, and that is very passive aggressive, but he changes in time and redeems himself. He actively fights it, he knows it is wrong. Even in his most depressive moments, he knows it is wrong.

Moash: thinks that he is in his full right to be resentful. And he is the kind of man that uses his jealousy to justify his actions. Why shouldn't he be a lighteyes too? it's unfair that HE isn't a lighteyes. Kaladin refuses as long as possible to become lighteyed. He just wants to change the unfair system.

Sadeas: Of the three friends Gavilar, Dalinar and Sadeas, the latter is the weakest, least powerful and least charming. He is last in everything, also last in charging into battle. But he is first in pillaging, beheading prisoners and raping unprotected women. He uses his passive aggressivenes to lie, spread rumors, hire assassins, or even get his wife to do that. I find it easy to believe that Sadeas is prone to jealousy, and that this feeling is the way in for Odium to control his resentment.

Elhokar: The king is the jealous type. He his jealous of his father's memory, his uncle's competence, the heroic actions and position of Kaladin. And he is resentful for it. He has never been oppressed or abused as far as we know. He has the most powerful position in Roshar. And he is still resentful. You might say that his uncle de facto is more powerful, because he can take away Elhokar's power at a whim, but compared to Shallan's childhood that is nothing. She had to fear for her and her brothers' lives. He had to fear for his position. Still, Elhokar never digs up the ability to dig himself out of the self pity he has buried himself in. He tries at the end, though, but too little, too late.

Jasnah: It seems to me that Jasnah harbors resentment for something done to her in her childhood. She was locked away, believed to be mad, perhaps because of her surgebinding abilities manifesting early? Jasnah never does _anything_ indirectly. Perhaps that is why she is loved so much by readers, even though she can be painfully direct and often callous. Jasnah and passive aggressiveness seems opposite values, but then her many assassins on retainer contracts come to mind. Perhaps intelligence operations like that can be counted as necessary for a government. Anyway, she never acts passive aggressively and she is never jealous or envious. The same can be said about Navani, Dalinar, Rock and Lopen.

Teft: Had a terrible childhood where all the adults of his family and their friends actively tried to kill themselves, and when he reported them, they were executed. Still he is never passive aggressive towards others. Only against himself. He never seems envious or very aggressive against others, and likes to support others if he can.

So, what do you think? Is envy and jealousy a part here? I really want to understand envy more. I find it hard to understand how people let that feeling ruin their lives.

[fantasea]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:09 PM, Ammanas said:

I really didn't  like her in the first two books, but she grew on me with the third one. My biggest problem in the first two books was her lame humor and how completely out of touch she was with the lower classes (a rich woman taking a poor soldiers boots...really!). Now, she certainly isn't my favorite, but I no longer cringe when I get to her chapters. 

I know you are new, but they have this rule about anything with Oathbringer stuff needs to have (OB) in the title and be in the Oathbringer Spoiler section. I will flag it so a administrator can move it over. 

On another note. Welcome to the Shard!

I'll have to agree with you here. In my first read of SA I absolutely loved Shallans character mainly because she was so different and her pov contributed to world building significantly. But on my second reading I noticed her interactions with the other characters and honestly it didn't sit well with me. Especially one scene at the chasm with Kaladin really stuck with me, where she dismisses his arguments about the treatment of darkeyes, like this guy was obviously a slave at one point, and she has the gall to say he's blowing it out of proportion. idk the fact that she's so dismissive of the treatment of darkeyes and slaves irk me. (a lot)

[Frustration]

Take away Veil and Radiant, and Shallan doesn't exist.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Frustration

[Djerf]

In tWoK Shallans story felt to be at ods with the rest of the book, always going from the interesting things happening at the shattered plains in order to watch shallahan do a whole lot of nothing. 

In WoR I had hoped to get some resolution but instead shallahan occasionally wanders into total asshat territory while never really earning my sympathy nor in my mind her skills. Meanwhile her backstory did not give her anything in my eyes, some moments were beautiful but in the end it failed to impress me (much like Dalinars backstory) and her plot of infiltrating the ghostbloods again gave me nothing.

OB was the weakest book so far, perhaps the weakest Sanderson book to date, for me and again instead of having movement in meaningful directions we're just diving in the deep end of Insanity. 

In tWoK I was disappointed when I turned page to learn that it was a Shallans chapter, in WoR I was saddened to learn it was a shallahan chapter and int OB I was irritated as soon as she got a PoV. 

I think that to many, the structure of tWoK harmed shallahan in the long run and that if SA had started with WoR it might have been different.

[Honorless]

My top disgusting Shallan Davar moments (in no particular order):

the stark comparison: Kaladin with a single sphere that's more than a Bridgeman could ever earn, while Shallan scoffs that even a destitute Lighteyes family of her Nahn several such spheres were less than pocket change

The boots scene: not funny

The eye drops scene: so you find the idea that a Lighteyes could pretend to be a Darkeyes fun, but a Darkeyes getting away from all that and pretending to be a Lighteyes is horrifying?! Oh god forbid, Shallan! And yet you found the idea of spren being captured for fabrials disturbing but what about your fellow human beings?

The did he just compare women with peasants scene: excuse me? Where do I even start with that?  That "peasant" is Kaladin, you just survived the Chasms together, do you have any respect for him as a fellow human being at all?

Cruel jokes at others expense: her thought process about where to be funny is basically, can I get away with making fun of this person? If that person is beneath me then they should just get a sense of humour!

That comment regarding shutting Renarin up when the Everstorm was approaching: wow