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[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread


fail420

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I gotta say, reading through all this, it’s nice to see such a variance of opinions in a such a respectful context. Rare to see that nowadays ;P

Personally, I always found Shallan’s chapters less interesting than the others, somewhat because of her rather slow character arc in WoR, but I’ve never really found anything repulsive about her character. (Although I have facepalmed at her abysmal decision-making abilities multiple times.) 

The funniest thing though is while reading all the reasoning for the anti-Shallan camp, I can’t help but think “Man. If you think she’s bad, good luck with the Wheel of Time!”

I had to drop the series 5 books in (well after I was good and invested in the story) because literally every single female character was the most stuck-up, arrogant, petty, jerk you’ve ever seen, and it just gets worse as the series goes. When I realized that the books were literally damaging my view of women (and as a young impressionable male virgin that’s not something you want to happen) as a whole, I reluctantly gave up on it. 

So, coming away from WoT and returning to Sanderson’s female characters, even the least likeable ones (Jasnah and Shallan apparently) are straight-up endearing when you make the comparasion. 

So, there’s my two skymarks :D

 

(...seriously though what happened in Robert Jordan’s life? Geez dude...)

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  • 6 months later...

I am going thru my reread of OB. It's been quite awhile since I read the book. Shallan can be very annoying at times, but I think it's incredibly unfair to say that she's poorly written. Sanderson has developed her character and storyline, cringe worthy moments very deliberately in my opinion. She's very complex, and he writes her as beautifully.]

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On 3/2/2019 at 3:14 PM, The Technovore said:

(Although I have facepalmed at her abysmal decision-making abilities multiple times.) 

Agreed.  However while facepalming I tend to remember similar abysmal decisions that I have made for equally stupid reasons.

On 3/2/2019 at 3:14 PM, The Technovore said:

The funniest thing though is while reading all the reasoning for the anti-Shallan camp, I can’t help but think “Man. If you think she’s bad, good luck with the Wheel of Time!”

Is it realy that bad?  Been wondering if I should read it...

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Well idk what u are talking about , I love shallan. Sure most of her jokes don't quite make u laugh out loud but it's not cringy either. Besides by oathbringer her jokes improve a lot.

The only thing I hated about her was that she stole kaladins boots. Jesus ppl of lower eyecolour have things hard enough as it is without lighteyed girls being mean to them. And I think she apologized for that too didn't she ? I don't remember ,maybe she didn't but she did feel really bad about it once kaladin pointed it out in the chasms. Also she was with tyn at the time so peer pressure played a role I guess.  I mean she was still a slontze then but that's the only thing I hated about her 

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Ok this is my first post here I signed up to reply to this thread. Why hasn't anyone brought up the fact that Shallan stole Tlakav's slaves? Instead of setting them free she decided to keep them in bondage. I see this as a huge problem in the series.The only point of view character who thinks about the plight of human slaves due to his horrific experiences at the hands of the Vorin ruling class. Shallan constantly puts Kaladin down because of his refusal to bow to the Vorin aristocracy. This is my biggest problem with Shallan and I find that entire scene ignored on this thread. I find it hilarious how Sanderson expects me to feel bad about the Parshmen while we all know humans suffered as much as they did under Vorin domination. Shallan is also a religious fanatic. She believes it's ok to rob Jasnah of a soul caster due to her atheism.....and I don't care about her horrible childhood being an excuse for her heavy handed defense of the system that has granted her so much while it destroyed many characters lives, including Moash. I have a lot of sympathy for him because of what happened to his grandparents. I would probably side with the Parshmen as well if they died in a dank dungeon. Shallan exemplifies this system of oppression to me. 

Edited by Tommen
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I love how everyone keeps talking about the boots scene but they ignore her casual enslavement of Tlakav's merchandise. Tlakav is obviously not meant to be a sympathetic character because he is a slaver. (Obviously who likes slavers?) I feel like this is a bad characterization of him. He mentions the crushing debts he has. He receives nothing in return for rescuing her and gets his goods stolen by Shallan who doesn't free the slaves she just steals them from him. Not to mention the fact that he was forced to head to the Shattered Plains when his destination was on the coast of the Frostlands. Afterwards we are supposed to think of her as some sort of savior who has slaves that are fat and happy. Kind of reminds me how Southerners used that type of propaganda to support their enslavement of African Americans as a positive good.

Edited by Tommen
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1 hour ago, Tommen said:

Ok this is my first post here I signed up to reply to this thread. Why hasn't anyone brought up the fact that Shallan stole Tlakav's slaves? Instead of setting them free she decided to keep them in bondage. I see this as a huge problem in the series.The only point of view character who thinks about the plight of human slaves due to his horrific experiences at the hands of the Vorin ruling class. Shallan constantly puts Kaladin down because of his refusal to bow to the Vorin aristocracy. This is my biggest problem with Shallan and I find that entire scene ignored on this thread. I find it hilarious how Sanderson expects me to feel bad about the Parshmen while we all know humans suffered as much as they did under Vorin domination. Shallan is also a religious fanatic. She believes it's ok to rob Jasnah of a soul caster due to her atheism.....and I don't care about her horrible childhood being an excuse for her heavy handed defense of the system that has granted her so much while it destroyed many characters lives, including Moash. I have a lot of sympathy for him because of what happened to his grandparents. I would probably side with the Parshmen as well if they died in a dank dungeon. Shallan exemplifies this system of oppression to me. 

 

1 hour ago, Tommen said:

I love how everyone keeps talking about the boots scene but they ignore her casual enslavement of Tlakav's merchandise. Tlakav is obviously not meant to be a sympathetic character because he is a slaver. (Obviously who likes slavers?) I feel like this is a bad characterization of him. He mentions the crushing debts he has. He receives nothing in return for rescuing her and gets his goods stolen by Shallan who doesn't free the slaves she just steals them from him. Not to mention the fact that he was forced to head to the Shattered Plains when his destination was on the coast of the Frostlands. Afterwards we are supposed to think of her as some sort of savior who has slaves that are fat and happy. Kind of reminds me how Southerners used that type of propaganda to support their enslavement of African Americans as a positive good.

Totally respect your right to not like Shallan. Just wanted to point out three things:

1. If she just released the slaves, they would get recaptured as they still had their slave debt on file. She got their writ, and offered to pay off a large chunk of it in exchange for their service. She had the Kholins confirm it when she went to get the deserters pardoned. So I interpreted it as her doing the best within the system to free them, and prevent them from ever being taken as slaves again.

2. Tlakv was eyeing her for what he could get out of her. He would have left her to die, or robbed and killed her if she hadn't convinced him that she was someone influential and that there was someone willing to pay a handsome reward. So enslavement or not, he was not a very upstanding guy.

3. the forum rules frown on double posting. No worries, you are new so don't stress it. If you think of more to add, just go to your prior post, and hit the edit button. You can then add more of your thoughts. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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On 9/20/2019 at 2:55 PM, Tommen said:

Ok this is my first post here I signed up to reply to this thread. Why hasn't anyone brought up the fact that Shallan stole Tlakav's slaves? Instead of setting them free she decided to keep them in bondage. I see this as a huge problem in the series.

She said she would not chase them if they ran.  She offered them work.  I doubt that freeing slaves is a concept that Shallan is familiar with.  Assuming she payed them like she said she would they will be free in a few months.  Also she needed to add people to her retinue and give her soldiers a sign of civilization.

On 9/20/2019 at 2:55 PM, Tommen said:

. I see this as a huge problem in the series.The only point of view character who thinks about the plight of human slaves due to his horrific experiences at the hands of the Vorin ruling class

That is somewhat typical of humans in general.  Honestly I find it off putting when my fantasy characters are too modern in their views.

On 9/20/2019 at 2:55 PM, Tommen said:

I find it hilarious how Sanderson expects me to feel bad about the Parshmen while we all know humans suffered as much as they did under Vorin domination

Have you read Kaladin's first chapters in Oathbringer?  At least slaves could think and at least in theory get free.  They were not breed like animals or separated from their children.  In theory they could make wages.

On 9/20/2019 at 2:55 PM, Tommen said:

Shallan is also a religious fanatic. She believes it's ok to rob Jasnah of a soul caster due to her atheism

No she doesn't.  That is her justification.  She is also understandably upset that Jasnah just committed murder in from of her and treated it like an intro to philosophy lecture.

On 9/20/2019 at 2:55 PM, Tommen said:

Shallan exemplifies this system of oppression to me. 

Shallan was born into the system of oppression.  Wanting her to have modern values in regards to human life is somewhat ridiculous.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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39 minutes ago, Karger said:

She is also understandably upset that Jasnah just committed murder in from of her and treated it like an intro to philosophy lecture.

I just got this scene in my head of Jasnah teaching a philosophy class, and murdering someone in front of 30 students at the first lesson, before giving them a paper about said murder as honework. 

Edit: @Tommen welcome to the forums! Hope you enjoy! I consider your points about Tvlavk interesting. The guy is obviously a douche, but you are right in that Shallan didnt treat him fairly. Thanks for pointing out something I hadn’t considered before!

Edited by Toaster Retribution
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Hey thanks guy. I wasn't looking at it from a modern perspective at all. I just think it's common human decency to not get involved in slavery. I know slavery can be hereditary in Roshar just as it was in the past IRL. I love this place I have learned a lot about things that I have totally missed. I hope the issue of human slavery is explored more I think it's been mentioned that it may become more commonplace now that the desolation has undermined Roshar's economy. I do enjoy Shallan's POV chapters the slave thing just bothered me for some reason. 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

No she doesn't.  That is her justification.  She is also understandably upset that Jasnah just committed murder in from of her and treated it like an intro to philosophy lecture.

 

52 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I just got this scene in my head of Jasnah teaching a philosophy class, and murdering someone in front of 30 students at the first lesson, before giving them a paper about said murder as honework. 

Edit: @Tommen welcome to the forums! Hope you enjoy! I consider your points about Tvlavk interesting. The guy is obviously a douche, but you are right in that Shallan didnt treat him fairly. Thanks for pointing out something I hadn’t considered before!

@Karger it seems I am going to have to add this to your thread of things that keep coming up. Jasnah did not kill the men for a philosophical lesson. She genuinely felt she was doing good by Taravangian and the city. I will be happy to add the quotes later if requested.

 

Way of Kings Page 535

"I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty's hospitality. he doesn't realize how much trouble he coudlf ace for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those...."

 

Way of Kings Page 588

"if it helps you wrestle with your feelings, child, understand that I was trying to do good. I sometimes wonder if I should accomplish more with my Soulcaster"

Edited by Pathfinder
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36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 it seems I am going to have to add this to your thread of things that keep coming up. Jasnah did not kill the men for a philosophical lesson. She genuinely felt she was doing good by Taravangian and the city. I will be happy to add the quotes later if requested.

I know she did not I said she treated it like one.  IE Shallen felt that Jasnah was doing an intro to philosophy lecture involving the death of four people(I know she is wrong).

Edited by Karger
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4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I just got this scene in my head of Jasnah teaching a philosophy class, and murdering someone in front of 30 students at the first lesson, before giving them a paper about said murder as honework. 

Edit: @Tommen welcome to the forums! Hope you enjoy! I consider your points about Tvlavk interesting. The guy is obviously a douche, but you are right in that Shallan didnt treat him fairly. Thanks for pointing out something I hadn’t considered before!

U know I think I would enjoy that as homework :P

Also @Tommen , tvlavk would have enslaved, raped , robbed or even killed shallan if she hadn't made him think she was worth more alive and in the shattered plains than dead/enslaved. During the entire journey , he keeps shallan in maximum discomfort to make her feel more dependant on him. At the end she gives him 5 emerald broams. I think that's enough reward for how he treated her. Also u must remember that all lighteyed , including Dalinar and possibly jasnah , adolin , renarin are ok with slavery. They would of course treat them well and give them more freedom . They are like fish swimming in water. The systems all they know. While they can think about being better , like jasnah and Dalinar do. It's not everyone's cup of tea. Esp not shallan as she has enough problems as it is to worry herself ragged about. 

Edited by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing
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  • 1 month later...
On 9/20/2019 at 9:43 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

U know I think I would enjoy that as homework :P

Says Mr. PrinceGenocide ;)

Regarding the whole Tlakav thing; Rosharan human slaves are not black slaves in America. The Parshmen are a lot closer to that IRL example, although they are arguable treated both better and worse. Human slaves are a lot close to Roman slaves, but late Roman slaves. I.E. long after the system of Roman slavery had become corrupt. I wont go full into the actual history, but  Roman slaves were slaves until they purchased or were given their freedom, then they were freemen. The children of freemen weren't slaves. 

In the Roman provinces, and late Roman Italy, however, there wasn't a realistic way for a slave to purchase their freedom, and their children were often kept as slaves. This is much like the Alethi

Basically it comes down to the way they were viewed. In the Roman slavery system, you weren't considered less of a person than a freeman. You just had a different set of responsibilities and obligations. You were still less than a citizen, of course, since everyone was less than a Roman Citizen. During the later Roman Empire however, instead of a slave having more respect because they were similar to freemen, the freemen had less respect because they were similar to slaves. 

Ultimately it may seem like a wash, but there are big differences in how a roman slave and a black slave in the Americas would be treated. Shallan buying their writs is closer to her employing them then her actually buying property. Our modern sensibilities don't see it that way, but as @Karger said, it would be weird for Shallan to think too much like us.

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I think it's important to note, too, @Tommen that even Kaladin's more "enlightened" view of slavery is based more in his own experiences than in a broader sense of justice, at least at first. The interaction with the Parshmen in OB when he spoke about how he understood them because he was branded as a slave:

Quote

 “And you think that makes you understand?”

“Of course it does. I’m one—”

“I have spent my entire life living in a fog,” the parshman yelled at him. “Every day knowing I should say something, do something to stop this! Every night clutching my daughter, wondering why the world seems to move around us in the light—while we are trapped in shadows. They sold her mother. Sold her. Because she had birthed a healthy child, which made her good breeding stock. “Do you understand that, human? Do you understand watching your family be torn apart, and knowing you should object—knowing deep in your soul that something is profoundly wrong? Can you know that feeling of being unable to say a single storming word to stop it?”

This then results in some real growth for Kal where he realizes that he believes himself to be benevolent, yes, but he doesn't truly think of the Parshmen as "human". 

Quote

He’d accepted Shen into Bridge Four, yes. But accepting that a sole parshman could be a bridgeman was starkly different from accepting the entire people as … well, human.

This isn't the *same* of course, but it does note that Kal was not completely enlightened on slavery beyond his own experiences as a slave and his hatred of the light eyes. He has to grow in this area too, just as Shallan does. Both of them learn that the world is not what they always thought it was, the comfort of that order is no more comfort. And that's a source of growth for both of them.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm rereading the books right now, currently halfway through words of radiance. And I'm really struggling to read on. The main reason: I dislike Shallan. Despite her complex background story, her actions somehow make her character fall flat. Her interactions with Kaladin in particular, are cringeworthy. Almost painful to read.

Is it just me or do the female leads in Sanderson’s books tend to bear strong similarities with one another? It’s like Sanderson has an idea of what a strong female character should be like, and uses that same idea time and again, only changing some minor details. Somehow the male lead characters do not seem to suffer from this flaw.

Now don’t get me wrong: I think Sanderson is a brilliant worldbuilder and his books have brought me great joy over the years. I think the stormlight archive is a fantastic series, but Shallan… she annoys me to no end.  

 

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On 12/2/2017 at 10:36 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Welcome! Hope to see you around in the future!

That said, I disagree with you :-P Shallan is one of my favorite characters. First off, I like her jokes, and I do find them funny. I also feel symphaty for her because of her past, which I found extremely tragic. In addition, she has some awesome moments, such as when she uses her drawings to make others see the best side of themselves, which has led to some heart-warming moments. Her insecurities, mental unstableness, and split-personas also makes her interesting to read. As an added bonus, she has the best spren (Pattern). 

That said, I know she is a controversial character. People mostly tend to like Kaladin and Dalinar, but Shallan has always been subject to discussion.

I find even bad jokes funny and will remember them, i don't even have a clue to hers

I have a hard time feeling anything about her past, because she just pushes it away and refuses to deal with it. Kaladin killing her brother should complicate their relationship, but NO, she will just uh, um oh I know she'll ignore it! yay.

Her drawing is just distracting.

Her alter ego's are written better than she is I honestly don't have a problem with veil but Shallan makes me want to jump ahead to another characters PoV.

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On 3/2/2019 at 1:14 PM, The Technovore said:

The funniest thing though is while reading all the reasoning for the anti-Shallan camp, I can’t help but think “Man. If you think she’s bad, good luck with the Wheel of Time!”

I had to drop the series 5 books in (well after I was good and invested in the story) because literally every single female character was the most stuck-up, arrogant, petty, jerk you’ve ever seen, and it just gets worse as the series goes. When I realized that the books were literally damaging my view of women (and as a young impressionable male virgin that’s not something you want to happen) as a whole, I reluctantly gave up on it. 

 

 

(...seriously though what happened in Robert Jordan’s life? Geez dude...)

I have also read first 4 books and part of the fifth in Wheel of Time, and 1 I think it is super overrated, and 2 I did not have this problem with their characters, yeah they aren't perfect but I prefer them to Shallan

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17 hours ago, Booknerd said:

I have also read first 4 books and part of the fifth in Wheel of Time, and 1 I think it is super overrated, and 2 I did not have this problem with their characters, yeah they aren't perfect but I prefer them to Shallan

You are at book 5 and you think the books are over rated. Oh my, what are you going to say if you ever reach book 7-10!! 
I agree with the observation that Robert Jordan did not write female characters well. He happened to think that all women behave the same way! And it got annoying after some time!!! Very annoying! 
 

On 12/25/2019 at 8:19 PM, Ruth said:

Is it just me or do the female leads in Sanderson’s books tend to bear strong similarities with one another? It’s like Sanderson has an idea of what a strong female character should be like, and uses that same idea time and again, only changing some minor details. Somehow the male lead characters do not seem to suffer from this flaw.

 

Care to elaborate a little on this? Which other characters you think bear a resemblance to the madness that is Shallan. 
In defence, I would point towards Jasnah and Lift. 
 

I think one reason why I find Shallan annoying is that as books progress you expect a protagonist to learn from their mistakes and improve over time. Solve their issues, get over past issues and problems. Shallan on the other hand, is getting worse with each successive book. In fact, Her problems are only just beginning to catch up with her. Years of pushing problems away has begun to cause deep psychological issues now! 
I, while finding her very annoying, really like reading about a situation where accessing magic is not a solution to all the problems of a person but is actually causing the problem to become more serious! 
 

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@The traveller I totally agree on the WoT. :-)

 

in terms of Shallan, I’ll have to say that I think she has progressed, although not because of her magic. Her magic gave her the tools to regress, yes, to escape. Her order values the subtleties and nuances between truth and lies and one can get lost in there if that’s what you want.
 

In many ways, Kal is boring to me for this reason. He’s your typical fantasy path...linear growth and goodness leads to increased access to magic, so he can selflessly save other people. (His stagnation in OB was welcome to me for that reason!) Ilike Shallan’s struggle. I like the distinction between her public and private selves and how she seeks to pretend nothing is wrong. I’ve been her so many times (though never hiding something as deep as she is), and if I had the ability to create an alter ego to give me confidence? What a dangerous gift. And yet, she fights it. At the end, when it threatens to consume her, she recognizes the danger in it and stops it. She takes responsibility for trying to escape. She’s not better or fixed. But she recognizes the danger in her gift. It’s why I like so much that she chooses Adolin, who has always accepted her—from their first discussion. When she tried to pretend she was a flirt and demure, she asked him about pooping. Lol and he loves her for it. I think that’s because Adolin has his own experiences trying to pretend all is well for the benefit of other people...

i think mine is a rare opinion, but I’d read 10 Shallan chapters before I’d enjoy a Bridge 4 chapter. And that’s why Brando Sando is so awesome—he provides for us all. ;-) 

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