[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Justi]

8 hours ago, Jenet said:

In a way, I am grateful for this thread. I shows me why teenagers and children with severe trauma and difficult childhoods often are bullied at school. People are unable to relate to their problems, even when the reasons for their behaviour are described in awful, horrible detail.

I find Shallan one of the most interesting characters in the series, and mostly so in Oathbringer. The last thing that happened in WoR was that Shallan was forced to remember that she actually killed her mother at 11 years of age. And that was after her mother tried to kill her. It is totally logical that a 17 old girl that has had a totally horrible childhood without any socialisation whatsoever, behaves weirdly at times. And if she did not experience a worsening of her symptoms after being forced to relive the worst nightmare of her childhood, and confess that she was the one who killed her mother and her guilt feelings for what started the whole mess with her father's abusive ways and the destruction of her whole family, well, I would say the book would have been unrealistic and not interesting to me.

I think many people forget that at the beginning of OB, Shallan had remembered her killing her mother just days ago. She was almost destroyed by the memory. But I hope it was what she needed to heal, perhaps in the next book in the series.

I just love that Sanderson never explains these things in an easy, direct way. I makes it easier to understand human relations. And the nature of bullying.

Characters with big traumas and difficult chilhood... All fanstasy books, all comic books, all literature actually full with this characters. (Films too) We love them, we enjoy them. I’m trying to remember a fantasy book with main hero/heroine have good childhood and incredible life. I dont remember one. “Peoples doesnt relate them, never understand them”, this is not true. Some of those heros even turned to bad peoples and audience liked them anyway. 

Big trauma leads different identites, split personality, we saw this in fiction and comic books before. This was cool feature for heros, heartbroken/sempatic backround for antiheros. It always worked. So far only Shallan failed to create something impressive with that. 

[RShara]

9 hours ago, Jenet said:

In a way, I am grateful for this thread. I shows me why teenagers and children with severe trauma and difficult childhoods often are bullied at school. People are unable to relate to their problems, even when the reasons for their behaviour are described in awful, horrible detail.

I find Shallan one of the most interesting characters in the series, and mostly so in Oathbringer. The last thing that happened in WoR was that Shallan was forced to remember that she actually killed her mother at 11 years of age. And that was after her mother tried to kill her. It is totally logical that a 17 old girl that has had a totally horrible childhood without any socialisation whatsoever, behaves weirdly at times. And if she did not experience a worsening of her symptoms after being forced to relive the worst nightmare of her childhood, and confess that she was the one who killed her mother and her guilt feelings for what started the whole mess with her father's abusive ways and the destruction of her whole family, well, I would say the book would have been unrealistic and not interesting to me.

I think many people forget that at the beginning of OB, Shallan had remembered her killing her mother just days ago. She was almost destroyed by the memory. But I hope it was what she needed to heal, perhaps in the next book in the series.

I just love that Sanderson never explains these things in an easy, direct way. I makes it easier to understand human relations. And the nature of bullying.

This is amazing, thank you!

[Jenet]

11 hours ago, Justi said:

Characters with big traumas and difficult chilhood... All fanstasy books, all comic books, all literature actually full with this characters. (Films too) We love them, we enjoy them. I’m trying to remember a fantasy book with main hero/heroine have good childhood and incredible life. I dont remember one. “Peoples doesnt relate them, never understand them”, this is not true. Some of those heros even turned to bad peoples and audience liked them anyway. 

Big trauma leads different identites, split personality, we saw this in fiction and comic books before. This was cool feature for heros, heartbroken/sempatic backround for antiheros. It always worked. So far only Shallan failed to create something impressive with that. 

I cannot understand how people think Shallan fails to do something impressive. Let me make a list:

- She turns Tvlakv, Bluth, Vatha, Gaz, and their companions around from being murderers and robbers into being heros. These are people whom Kaladin only managed to make even worse. Kaladin was a slave, true, but Shallan was a lone, wounded woman in the wastelands, without any resources that she knew of. And she managed to make Tvalkv listen to her and transport her, willingly, to the shattered plains, Gaz was turned into a positive, happy servant instead of an angry gameoholic. Vatha is actually starting to lightweave on his obvious way to being a knight radiant. Saved from being an obvious outlaw, possibly murderer and rapist for what we know.

- She turns almost everyone she meets into a better version of themselves. Elhokar gets a new and optimistic view on himself because of her drawing of him. If she had been able to do that earlier, it may have gotten him to say his words earlier and thus saved him.

- She turns Adolin into a more interesting person, because she is able to see his intelligence that he has hidden under his good looks and dueling capacity. Many people that are popular hide their intelligence both to themselves and to others. Perhaps in order to at least have some friends. Adolin is almost shocked out of this hiding by Shallan's brutal honesty and bluntness. She is not able to stop her quips, and that is what gets him out of his two-dimensional state. "How do you poop?"

- She saves the day so many times. She finds Urithiru, and saves thousands of people, including most of our heros. She upholds the Sadeas army until help comes from Urithiru in the battle of Thaylen City. If it wasn't for her, the Sadeas army would have swarmed the city and killed many, among them Queen Fen and her consort, and Navani. 

- She saves Kaladin and herself in the chasms. She lends Kaladin her shardblade, even though she is mortally arfraid of even admitting that she carries the blade that killed her mother. And she distracts the chasmfiend to save Kaladin while he was disarmed and beaten by the monster. She also climbs up and digs out the cubby that saves them, and both physically and mentally drags Kaladin the last bit up to it. And she gets them out, because of her ability to remember patterns and extrapolate from limited information.

- She gives Kaladin hope when she shows him that it is possible to carry on and see the positive side of things even if your world and your self has been crushed. "She smiled anyway"

- Her sense of pattern recognition, of course assisted by Pattern is crucial for a lot of the studies that has been necessary for progress. For instance her extrapolating the pattern of the shattered plains to find the centre.

- Her kindness to the poor is heart warming. It is not her fault that evil people controls a criminal system that she is not aware of. As a rape victim is not to blame for the crime, Shallan is not to blame for the killing of Grund. People around a rape victim often start to blame her for what happened, but the rapist is the only one to blame. SO, we must not be fooled by the fact that many of the poor people she gave food to blames her. They are afraid and desperate, and need someone to be angry at. I require of the reader to be so mature as to see that even though everyone, even Shallan herself, blames her for what happened, it is completely unfair. She was trying to help, and that is kind.

- She manages to spy and find out many important things: She infliltrates the Cult of Moments and finds out about the Heart of the Revel, and how things actually stand around the oathgate of Kholinar. She investigates and finds out the logic of The Midnight Mother, and even finds out where she is located, and frightens her off. She also studies the currupted spren and finds out about Sja-Anat and how she may be willing to betray Odium. She is perhaps the only one of our protagonists who consistently uncovers new information. When Jasnah arrives at Urithiru, she is surprised that all her own investigation is obsolete because of Shallan's work.

- She also infiltrates the Ghostbloods, very risky and without knowing anything more about them than that they killed Jasnah, as far as she knew. She instinctly knows that she can get valuable information through that organisation. And because of this very dangerous double agent activity, she is able to save her brothers, get more info about the clandestine organisations that our alliance are struggling with in order to unite Roshar against Odium. Dalinar and Kaladin, yes even Jasnah are completely unaware of many of the things Mraize knows. To be able to stand alone as a secret double agent like this is very, very brave.

- She literally saves Kaladin, Adolin and Azure after they fall into Shadesmar, and gets them to safe ground. She also saves them many times during their trip through Shadesmar, and delays the attack of the fused at the oathgate of Thaylen City. Delaying tactics are often very important, and this time it may have saved Adolin's life, as he probably would have been wounded long before, and not being able to survive until Dalinar set up his perpendicularity.

- She actually helps Jasnah in her studies, and also helps Jasnah see things in a more positive way. Jasnah is horribly alone with her thoughts and theories. Shallan belives in Jasnah's theories and supports her. This may not seem so important as many people believe Jasnah is a machine of some sorts, but she is not.

- We often see Shallan through the eyes of Kaladin and Jasnah. These are not very trustworthy when it comes to judging such a person as Shallan. We know that honorspren and cryptics are at odds with each other, and windrunners are much too bound by oaths and box-thinking around the truth to understand how a lightweaver might get to an even more real truth by using "lies". Jasnah is perhaps even more bound by strict logical thinking. Wit understands Shallan's artistic approach to the truth fully. We are more helped by trusting Wit's words in judging Shallan. 

Jasnah does not understand how Shallan has trouble concentrating immediately after Shallan has 1) relived her killing of her mother, that she had managed to supress, and 2) confronted and chased away the Midnight frickin Mother. How can we possibly trust Jasnah's judgement of Shallan? 

Kaladin is angry, depressed and prone to resentment. His good opinion once lost, is lost forever. In addition, Shallan's artistic side is drawn towards his good looks and dramatic appearance. This makes Shallan a very confusing person to judge for him. It does not mean that we should completely trust Kaladin's opinion of her either. 

I could sit her all day and list Shallans positive sides, but I am sure more of you are able to see these if you try. It is a useful exercise in seeing through biases.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Jenet
addition + typos

[Juanaton]

On 10/3/2018 at 3:15 AM, Jenet said:

I cannot understand how people think Shallan fails to do something impressive.

That's easy. She annoyed them so much they didn't read her portions. Dumb, but easy.

[thorongil]

4 hours ago, Juanaton said:

That's easy. She annoyed them so much they didn't read her portions. Dumb, but easy.

I honestly don't think there would be too many people skipping huge chunks of the book and then joining into the discussion here. I too at times am annoyed by Shallan's actions. But the same is true for Kaladin. And Dalinar. And Adolin. And basically any other expanded viewpoint character. There are just so many decisions each of these characters have to make during the course of the books that I believe it is impossible for all of them to act to my satisfaction all the time.

To me this is an asset of dynamic characters. If I want predictable stuff I'll go read fairy tales.

[Justi]

I’m sure If I try to sell a character, I can write same wonderful things about him/her too. For example I can write how a bridge four member saved the day, how he give our main characters hope, feel them better, how he made other characters interesting bla bla. (Same goes for other minor characters) Those things alone shouldnt be enough to call character İmpressive since it is pretty normal behaviour for fantastic fiction.

But that is not the point because what I mean with “something impressive” is “something impressive for readers”. Did her split personality raised her popularity? Suddenly she become interesting character everybody wanted to know more about? Will 4th book will be about her new Powers? No. Any other hero/antihero in same path created some exciment. Except Shallan.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Justi

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Okay, I've read through some of this thread, and let me open by saying that everyone likes different characters, and that's good. What one person finds appealing will make another person cringe. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I did want to add my two cents, because not only do I like Shallan, but I'm grateful for her. Why? Because she was one of the first characters who was portrayed unequivocally as a hero who I identified with. 

On 12/2/2017 at 6:09 AM, fail420 said:

I feel like a beta nerdy virgin would imagine women are just like her. It disgusts me and that comes in extreme contrast to all the other characters and the rest of the story that I love so much.

I….actually am like her. In WoK, when she's standing on the dock critiquing her own appearance, nervous at the thought of even the smallest social interaction with a stranger—at that moment, I recognized myself. Not too long ago, that was me. I'd go to church or school, feeling as if I never looked right, never acted right, never fit in. I'd walk away from a social interaction thinking I'm stupid, I'm stupid, I'm stupid, even if nothing went wrong and the other person seemed to enjoy my company. Heck, even today, after I've gained a booster shot of confidence and am more comfortable in my own skin, I still walk away from routine interactions having to remind myself that I'm not stupid. 

On 12/2/2017 at 6:09 AM, fail420 said:

I don't want to hint to any spoilers, but when she starts imagining she's another person and drawing that rust on her pad... Eck, the cringe, I barely could finish reading the sentence, it physically hurts me to read these parts.

See, I never drew alter-egos for myself, partly because I can't draw. But I did imagine myself as characters I identified with (who, up to that point, were usually minor villains, portrayed as weak and cowardly for the very traits I possessed). I also created alter-egos in my head, and daydreamed about being them. I imagined myself as a superhero, as a Hogwarts student, as the hero of a fairy tale. Like Veil and Radiant, many of these characters were fairly Sue-ish—because I wanted to be someone I thought others would love, and so I gave these alter-egos as many lovable traits as I could manage. Were those daydreams normal? Probably not. But they helped me cope, because…..

On 12/2/2017 at 6:57 AM, A Dopey Spren said:

Dont forget she's a somewhat spoiled lighteyes who's been through an incredibly painful childhood, leading to her not being the most stable (leading to her imagining being other characters.) 

Materially spoiled, yes. She was surrounded by more comforts than many people on Roshar even aspired to. But she was also abused and sheltered. Her flashbacks in WoR show just how deep the psychological and emotional abuse went. The way her father treated her like something fragile, someone who couldn't handle reality and thus had to be shielded from it—I can speak firsthand to how damaging that is. To be treated like someone who can't handle the real world leads to not only ignorance of the real world, but fear of it. To be treated like someone who is incapable, incompetent, and unlovable leads to a desire to be someone else, to become someone that others can love. 

Shallan is not a traditional protagonist. She's fearful, she's naive, she's unstable. But she's also a realistic look at someone who has been through trauma and abuse. Shallan is not a Harry Potter-type character, who has always known that her abusers were at fault and she didn't deserve it. She's internalized the abuse, she's come to believe that she, Shallan, is not capable of the task she's been given. She may have gained some confidence throughout WoK, but a good bit of it is nothing more than a front, because growing up, she was never allowed to be confident. She was taught to be dependent on her father, who despite taking the blame for killing her mother, was still a horribly abusive waste of space. And because she internalized all the awful treatment she endured, it takes her longer than most to develop some self-confidence. It takes her time to stand on her own. And she falls. She falls frequently, and she falls hard. But she always stands up again. That's the kind of strength I'm still not sure I have.

She may not be your type of character, and that's fine. No one is obligated to enjoy her. But there are people out there like her, people who drew strength from her slow progression from naive victim to survivor. There are people out there like her, who felt they had to become someone else in order to be liked. And there are people out there who, like Shallan, don't confidently walk their own path so much as stumble through, hoping and praying they're making the right decision, wanting to give up and go back at every turn. 

That's not weakness. That's bravery. 

[Calderis]

@TwiLyghtSansSparkles well said.

As I've said numerous times, Shallan's first Truth that we see on screen, "I am terrified," is not constrained to the situation in which it's said. She's a fear driven character. Everything that she does is an attempt to run, hide, or distance herself from the things she feels she can't deal with. 

While there are times that reading her is akin to watching a train wreck, she's a very well done character, dealing (or failing to deal) with her traumas in believable ways. 

[Toaster Retribution]

My one issue with Shallan is that I feel that her arc was somewhat left hanging at the end of OB. She didn’t really get better at confronting her fears. The only thing she resolved was the love triangle (which I never cared much about in the first place). 

[Steeldancer]

I agree with Toaster, although I also wasn't expecting everything to be resolved at the end of the book. she still has more work to do before she can swear the truth "I am Shallan Davar."

[Jenet]

9 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

I agree with Toaster, although I also wasn't expecting everything to be resolved at the end of the book. she still has more work to do before she can swear the truth "I am Shallan Davar."

That gave me the goosebumps. Of course that will be her ultimate oath/words, very logical. I am not a frequent reader here, so this has passed me by.

Also to Justi saying: "But that is not the point because what I mean with “something impressive” is “something impressive for readers”. Did her split personality raised her popularity? Suddenly she become interesting character everybody wanted to know more about? Will 4th book will be about her new Powers? No. Any other hero/antihero in same path created some exciment. Except Shallan."

I do not agree that a hero is defined by his or her popularity. I think that is the mind set of a bully or a person that easily will follow a bully. A hero for me, is a person who stands up despite his or her difficulties, and does her or his best to make the world a better place. Shallan does that.

This morning I listened to Words of Radiance while baking, and I was shocked by how Kaladin was snickering and openly mocking Renarin's first struggles with blade and plate. Not in a bridge-four-bantering way, but really mocking Renarins abilities. Kaladin very often does things like that, looking down on people, breaking his word, being basically a jerk. And people love him for it. 

Why?

[Justi]

If I try to stole from my friends or random peoples, I -Probably-will not get away easily. My relationship with my friend or other peoples would be hurt. If my family have money/reputation problem I -probably- will not find a sweet prince to solve this problem. If I talk badly about other poor peoples, I’m very sure I will not get away with “she is spoiled lighteyes, she believe she is superior, she grow up like that what can she do, poor little thing?” line. Maybe you can relate her problems but the way she solves, no, this is not real. Is she really “the person who stands up despite his or her difficulties?”  My understanding is Sanderson protects her from everything, everytime. If she is in the real world her story would be very different from Sanderson’s world. This makes her unreal for me. 

For example I wrote here why I didnt like her. Of course I got a lot of criticism: how I’m talking about her without reading her chapters, I’m not sempatic enough for her traumas or I expect so much from her, maybe I should read fairytales. List goes on. This is very normal behaviour for humans actually. Only Shallan gets away with it in the books. Why? 

Sanderson’s interfence about Shallan is so much, it really wear me out every chapter I read. He spends so much time and energy to make her character work. Sad thing about him is, it is not working. It is exhausting for him and for us.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Justi

[thorongil]

1 hour ago, Justi said:

Sanderson’s interfence about Shallan is so much, it really wear me out every chapter I read. He spends so much time and energy to make her character work. Sad thing about him is, it is not working. It is exhausting for him and for us.

From reading this thread it seems more like it isn't working for you. Which - as your experience - is perfectly fine, of course, but not sufficient to make a generalization out of it.

[Toaster Retribution]

5 hours ago, Jenet said:

This morning I listened to Words of Radiance while baking, and I was shocked by how Kaladin was snickering and openly mocking Renarin's first struggles with blade and plate. Not in a bridge-four-bantering way, but really mocking Renarins abilities. Kaladin very often does things like that, looking down on people, breaking his word, being basically a jerk. And people love him for it. 

I wouldn’t say that people love Kaladin because he looks down on others (he mostly doesn’t do that, to be fair, and mid-WoR Kaladin isn’t really feeling all that well). I think the reasons people like Kaladin is partly because they identify with him, partly because he is pretty likeable, partly because he is pretty badass, and partly because he is seen as the main character of Stormlight, probably  because he was heavily featured in both WoK and WoR. 

[Jenet]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I wouldn’t say that people love Kaladin because he looks down on others (he mostly doesn’t do that, to be fair, and mid-WoR Kaladin isn’t really feeling all that well). I think the reasons people like Kaladin is partly because they identify with him, partly because he is pretty likeable, partly because he is pretty badass, and partly because he is seen as the main character of Stormlight, probably  because he was heavily featured in both WoK and WoR. 

I agree with all this. My problem is, I see Shallan in exactly the same light, and she is, as quoted earlier, not popular in the same way as Kaladin. She is actually also a main character, she has her own book with flashbacks, and she is obviously a hero, as argumented in my earlier post.

As far as I can see, both Shallan and Kaladin have faults and do stupid things. But Shallan is hated for her faults by many. Kaladin is more often understood and supported, and he is seen as a hero by most readers.

One might speculate that this is because she is a woman. But I fear this is an easy explanation. I think it is because we fear weakness. It is so easy to feel contempt towards weakness. Many people say they react strongly when reading about Shallan, they can't even bear to read about her. And so they never get to understand what drives a person like her.

As I said before, I also think this might be a result of differences in character. Many people, who would have ended up as windrunners or elsecallers, had they become Knights Radiants, react to a lightweaver with vehemence by instinct, because they cannot understand what they believe are "lies".
Shallan changes her persona in order to cope. The persona are of course still Shallan. They are different parts of her personality that she does not dare expose as "herself". It's not a lie. It's just an actor's way to cope. She is an artist. Artists explain feelings and phenomenons by acting, by telling stories, by "giving the truth scope", to quote a movie. Wit does the same thing. He actually says:" The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you what to think, but to give you stories to think upon". 

This is the reason why Shallan is able to change people to become better versions of themselves. She never instructs them, she inspires them. This is an indirect way of "hero work", and perhaps not so obvious as being a flying spearman. But it is a very important work. 

I guess the reason why many readers never realize this is that they never actually read her chapters, or they read very superficially. And then they never come to grips with essential parts and depths of the story. And why don't they read? Are they afraid of meeting someone who is terrified? Do they hate to see a person that is strong despite a weak position?  There must be a deeper reason behind these strong reactions?

Anyway, here are lists of examples of what Kaladin has done, and what Shallan has done. Negative things towards others. Why is one a hero and the other someone to despise?

Kaladin:
- Mocking Renarin and his disability openly 
- Bragging about his ability to fight to Zahel, and telling that he does not need to learn to fight a shardbearer, since he knows everything there is to learn. 
- Always depressed and giving up hope but still able to motivate the people he is protecting after pulling himself together.
- Reacts to Shallans quips with anger and contempt, thinking she is a spoilt lighteyes with an empty mind. Without knowing anything more about her.
- Taking the lead trying to find their way back down in the chasms without checking at all if Shallan has an idea of how to get out.
- Behaving in an unfeeling way towards Lin, when she wishes to join bridge 4, thinking automatically that she should be a scribe because she is a woman.
- Behaves very rudely towards Dalinar and Adolin, even though he has reason to believe that they are good persons. He is of course biased because he has earlier been betrayed by other lighteyes, and thus unable to free himself from this feeling.
- Behaves rudely towards Shallan almost every time they meet. It must be said that she often teases him and that he often misunderstands her quips.
- Breaking his word to Dalinar and actively planning to kill the person he has sworn to protect.

Shallan:
- Gets tangled in Tyn's plot to force her to play horneater princess and tricks Kaladin, who is a guard captain, into giving her his boots.
- Kills her mother in self defence
- Even though she is basically terrified all the time, she saves the psychological health of her brothers in a completely unbearable situation, and at last kills her father in self defense.
- Gets into quarrels with Kaladin, and sometimes starts the quarrels herself. Often, these quarrels are started by Kaladin, because he mistrusts her.
- Has trouble deciding whom she likes the most, Kaladin or Adolin.
- Stealing from Jasnah to try to save her brothers. But giving the item back when her own life was in danger.
- Not loving Kabsal.

These are examples of situations where the two characters have said or done something negative towards other people. What they do to themselves is not included.

How is it possible, when looking at these lists, to say that Shallan is a terrible person and that Kaladin is a hero?

[Justi]

I remember once Dalinar thought his son managed to look pitiful even in shardplate. (Pitiful might not be exact word since I read books other language than English) Every other character even Renarin’s himself remarked his fighting ability badly. I really dont understand why we should be angry to Kaladin? It is not like what Kaladin said is a lie.  

3 hours ago, thorongil said:

From reading this thread it seems more like it isn't working for you. Which - as your experience - is perfectly fine, of course, but not sufficient to make a generalization out of it.

Eh I didnt open Shallan disgust thread, am I?

I also want to add in my country there was two big criticism for books. First Shallan being too boring. Second, only way to solve problem in the books is “deus ex machina”. Everytime somebody is in danger they are turning to the radiants bla bla bla. We hope Sanderson can work on those things. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Justi

[Jenet]

16 minutes ago, Justi said:

I remember once Dalinar thought his son managed to look pitiful even in shardplate. (Pitiful might not be exact word since I read books other language than English) Every other character even Renarin’s himself remarked his fighting ability badly. I really dont understand why we should be angry to Kaladin? It is not like what Kaladin said is a lie.  

Eh I didnt open Shallan disgust thread, am I?

I also want to add in my country there was two big criticism for books. First Shallan being too boring. Second, only way to solve problem in the books is “deus ex machina”. Everytime somebody is in danger they are turning to the radiants bla bla bla. We hope Sanderson can work on those things. 

Pointing out that someone is disabled in a condescending way is considered very rude at least in my country.

[thorongil]

1 hour ago, Justi said:

Eh I didnt open Shallan disgust thread, am I?

I also want to add in my country there was two big criticism for books. First Shallan being too boring. Second, only way to solve problem in the books is “deus ex machina”. Everytime somebody is in danger they are turning to the radiants bla bla bla. We hope Sanderson can work on those things. 

Again you speak as if you have the authority of millions of people, which is just what I tried to point out above. Why would your opinion be representative for that of all the other people living in your country? If you make claims like that you should back them up with a lot more substance than you are providing here.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

6 hours ago, Justi said:

If I try to stole from my friends or random peoples, I -Probably-will not get away easily. My relationship with my friend or other peoples would be hurt. If my family have money/reputation problem I -probably- will not find a sweet prince to solve this problem. If I talk badly about other poor peoples, I’m very sure I will not get away with “she is spoiled lighteyes, she believe she is superior, she grow up like that what can she do, poor little thing?” line.

This is one of the benefits of fiction, though—it allows us to understand people we would dismiss or disdain in real life. Shallan's theft of the Soulcaster and tricking Kaladin into giving her his boots are both wrong, and they're portrayed as such. The actions themselves are not sympathetic, but her reasoning (a desperate attempt to keep her family financially afloat in the former, falling to Tyn's bad influence out of a desire to be liked in the latter) is, if not sympathetic to all readers, then it's at least understandable. 

And, as @Jenet has pointed out, Kaladin does many unsympathetic things throughout the series, and yet he gains the sympathy of most readers. Why does he get sympathy for his motivations while Shallan's motivations are ignored? 

7 hours ago, Justi said:

Maybe you can relate her problems but the way she solves, no, this is not real. Is she really “the person who stands up despite his or her difficulties?”  My understanding is Sanderson protects her from everything, everytime. If she is in the real world her story would be very different from Sanderson’s world. This makes her unreal for me. 

You know, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Does Shallan get lucky sometimes? Yes. The fact she was able to take Jasnah to Shadesmar, accidentally proving herself a Radiant and gaining Jasnah as an ally rather than an enemy, was fortunate timing. But she solves other problems on her own. I haven't read WoK or WoR in a while, so I'm probably missing a few things, but here's a handful: 

-Rather than suppressing her natural tendency toward quips on her date with Adolin, she allows one to slip out—and catches him off-guard, coaxing him to act more like himself. She gives him permission to be comfortable in her presence. 
-Beset by bandits on one side and deserters on the other, she appeals to the deserters' better nature—something people like Kaladin or Jasnah would likely insist does not exist. And it works. She gains a veritable army of protectors who become fiercely loyal to her, simply because she gave them a second chance. 
-Using the power of first impressions, she allies herself with Sebarial, a highprince everyone else has dismissed as a fool. Not only does she gain the freedom to do more or less as she pleases, but she learns that Sebarial is singlehandedly setting up a working economy on the Shattered Plains. 
-Not knowing how her powers work, she comes up with solutions that work in the moment and get her from Point A to Point B. These solutions have weaknesses, and she learns how to improve upon them. 
-She plays coy lover to get Adolin to give her a peek inside some rocks, allowing her a chance to gain clues as to how to find Urithiru without tipping her hand as to what she's doing, allowing herself even greater freedom of movement (because we know that if she marched in saying "I'm going to find the lost city of Urithiru," she'd gain interest, suspicion, and more supervision than she could work under). 

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I know there's more. Point is, Shallan does not only win the day through deus ex machina. She uses her own wits more often than not, and the fact that it works, rather than always failing, does not make it author contrivance. 

[Justi]

2 hours ago, Jenet said:

Pointing out that someone is disabled in a condescending way is considered very rude at least in my country.

Very rude as in my country too. But I never think Kaladin’s actions against Renarin as abuse of disabled person since he doesnt know problems of Renarin. He saw him only as prince. (Same goes for Zahel and other peoples) 

 

33 minutes ago, thorongil said:

Again you speak as if you have the authority of millions of people, which is just what I tried to point out above. Why would your opinion be representative for that of all the other people living in your country? If you make claims like that you should back them up with a lot more substance than you are providing here.

You speak like I need millions of peoples to support me otherwise my opinions will not matter because I’m only 1 person in this thread.

I also want to add, of course I don’t have authority in my country, I just had to explain reception of the books in here. We have small fantastic fiction group. (Not just Sanderson’s book) We dont understand Shallan at all. 

36 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

You know, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Does Shallan get lucky sometimes? Yes. The fact she was able to take Jasnah to Shadesmar, accidentally proving herself a Radiant and gaining Jasnah as an ally rather than an enemy, was fortunate timing. But she solves other problems on her own. I haven't read WoK or WoR in a while, so I'm probably missing a few things, but here's a handful: 

-Rather than suppressing her natural tendency toward quips on her date with Adolin, she allows one to slip out—and catches him off-guard, coaxing him to act more like himself. She gives him permission to be comfortable in her presence. 
-Beset by bandits on one side and deserters on the other, she appeals to the deserters' better nature—something people like Kaladin or Jasnah would likely insist does not exist. And it works. She gains a veritable army of protectors who become fiercely loyal to her, simply because she gave them a second chance. 
-Using the power of first impressions, she allies herself with Sebarial, a highprince everyone else has dismissed as a fool. Not only does she gain the freedom to do more or less as she pleases, but she learns that Sebarial is singlehandedly setting up a working economy on the Shattered Plains. 
-Not knowing how her powers work, she comes up with solutions that work in the moment and get her from Point A to Point B. These solutions have weaknesses, and she learns how to improve upon them. 
-She plays coy lover to get Adolin to give her a peek inside some rocks, allowing her a chance to gain clues as to how to find Urithiru without tipping her hand as to what she's doing, allowing herself even greater freedom of movement (because we know that if she marched in saying "I'm going to find the lost city of Urithiru," she'd gain interest, suspicion, and more supervision than she could work under). 

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I know there's more. Point is, Shallan does not only win the day through deus ex machina. She uses her own wits more often than not, and the fact that it works, rather than always failing, does not make it author contrivance. 

Yes she often found things on the way without knowing anything about them and this is why most of her “gains”  actually “deus ex machina”. We dont know, she dont know, other characters dont know but what she does works everytime.  

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

1 minute ago, Justi said:

Yes she often found things on the way without knowing anything about them and this is why most of her “gains”  actually “deus ex machina”. We dont know, she dont know, other characters dont know but what she does works everytime.  

Apologies if this comes across as overly salty, but does that mean that people who stumble into knowledge they didn't know they needed in real life is also deus ex machina? Or, speaking in terms of in-universe contrivances, does this mean that Kaladin happening to stumble across the listeners in OB is also deus ex machina? Or that the Voidbringer attack that happens to give Elhokar's group time to sneak into Kholinar is deus ex machina? Or that Dalinar happening to puzzle out where the Voidbringers are going to attack is deus ex machina? 

If you're going to chalk up all of Shallan's victories to deus ex machina, then you have to apply the same standards to the other characters. 

[thorongil]

48 minutes ago, Justi said:

You speak like I need millions of peoples to support me otherwise my opinions will not matter because I’m only 1 person in this thread.

I also want to add, of course I don’t have authority in my country, I just had to explain reception of the books in here. We have small fantastic fiction group. (Not just Sanderson’s book) We dont understand Shallan at all.

Your opinion is perfectly fine and as valid as anybody's in here. But, sorry for being repetitive here, when you make statements like "we [every reader in your country] don't understand Shallan" or "i just had to explain reception of the books here [in your country]" you claim to speak for all of these other readers and you'd better be ready to prove your authority for doing so.

[Calderis]

Shallan is no more contrived than any other character. The reasoning behind all of the "deus ex machina" is explained in context, as it is with every other character 

Her theft was set aside because Jasnah realized what she was. It was not forgotten. The stipulations of her remaining as ward were no more theft and no more lies. 

Her marriage to Adolin being arranged was set up by Jasnah specifically to take care o her family's financial problems and tie a Radiant to house Kholin. It was a political move on Jasnah's part. 

Everything she does is validly explained, and based off of things that either were set up before, like Jasnah's research into the Oathgate. Or no one understands it, like what happened with Re-Shephir. 

The same could be said for Dalinar using the Oathgate or opening a perpendicularity. Or Kaladin making a calm spot in the highstorm. 

Frankly, the hate Shallan gets does not hold up to the reasoning people apply to it. This isn't directed at just you @Justi, because I've seen it numerous times. 

[Jenet]

15 hours ago, Justi said:

Sanderson’s interfence about Shallan is so much, it really wear me out every chapter I read. He spends so much time and energy to make her character work. Sad thing about him is, it is not working. It is exhausting for him and for us.

If Shallan is wearing you out, it may not be Sanderson's fault. It may be yours. It may be that you don't understand the kind of person that Shallan is, and that you are not interested in finding out more about this character. It may also be that you are lacking in empathy, which means an interest in and understanding of other people who are different from you.

I find that Sanderson is no less than a genious describing these characters, not telling us what they are like, but telling us stories about them told by themselves or by others, none of whom are very reliable sources. We are forced to interpret the stories we are told. Like investigators, we must never fall into the trap of believing a 100% what the different characters say about themselves or about others. Because they - and we - are biased. We are biased by our former experiences and our  different personal characters. 

Shallan is an extremely interesting and complex character. Sanderson is never struggling to make the character work. It's working brilliantly and obviously after a master plan from the moment Shallan set foot on the docks of Kharbranth. But we are just shown bits and pieces of the puzzle that is Shallan. To tease us, to confuse us, to intrigue us and to force us to learn about other people's problems. To make us become impatient, angry or confused before we get the full story and understand why she is like she is.

Kaladin is fooled big time. He is not able to see past his pejudices. And he several times feels like one of the ten fools when he discovers more about what hides under the pretty surface of Shallan Davar. I think Sanderson's intention is to slowly reveal to readers the same thing. Apart from the ones of us who understand Shallan immediately, because we are crushed in the same way, or we are artistic souls too, who communicate in metaphors and are driven by pattern recognition.

Sanderson was never the one to go for easy plots and broad popularity. Cool thing that he is popular anyway. He manages to both deliver action stories and deep understanding at the same time. If you only understand the action, do not fall into the trap of believing that the rest is without value.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Jenet

[cantabile21]

Now that i think about it, Shallan reminds me of one of those cousins any of us might have. You know, the smart one, the popular one, the pretty one, who should have a bright future ahead of her. But she would insist on sabotaging her life with poor decisions that nobody else understands, and as she is already an adult, you can't really do anything to stop her. You wish you could just grab her and give her a good shake, but you can't. So you sigh and let her carry on, praying that she doesn't get hurt too badly, and that hopefully someday down the road she will eventually learn from life's lessons and learn some sense.

i like Shallan. She is a wonderfully complex character and i have always rooted for her, even if i didn't agree with how she did what she did. There is much to admire in her. Her brilliance, her tenacity, her compassion. Her creative approach to all the crem that life has thrown at her, and how she has survived it all. The thing that has bugged me about her, right from the beginning, is how she always chooses the deceitful approach, to pretend and hide and fool people to accomplish her tasks. It's ironic that when she was for once open and honest about what she was trying to achieve, she succeeded spectacularly and found the way to Urithiru and saved everybody. 

She actually understands, deep down, that for her to achieve any kind of breakthrough, she has to come clean with herself and accept and love herself, broken as she is. Then the next step is to tell Adolin who he really married, and to see how the both of them can work it out together as a married couple. That's probably her character development in a nutshell - to come to accept who she is, and to let the people around her see her for who she really is, with all the brilliance and the failures and the pain that has shaped her. Then, with the acceptance and love of the people around her, to grow into the woman she could and should be. 

i guess in the end, even if the things Shallan has done has made me want to grab her and shake some sense into her, she is still the brilliant and resilient and i dare say likable and admirable Shallan, and i want happiness for her. (Much like how we would want happiness for those cousins of ours.)