[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I agree with you about the AMA: I had the same feelings. People kept asking about a few plot points readers have felt weren't dealt with satisfyingly and they kept answering: "Oh we discussed it but so much else was happening, we didn't really care...". It was asked if they noted how a few chosen story arcs might not be considered very satisfying for the greater readership and the answer was rather telling: no one ever discussed how the readership would react as everyone thought the book was amazing. This bothered me: it isn't as if the story aspects which are actually being criticized hadn't been talked about in a visible manner... I then realized it may because the group of people chosen probably weren't individuals actually participating within those discussions.  Another comment which bothered me is when it was said: "All beta readers are die-hard Brandon's fans and as such are in for anything he writes no matter what it is." or something along those lines... Some of them were even a little mean towards posters who tried to challenge some answers...

I will say this: many of the scenes that went "missing" or weren't touched on were brought up. They definitely were, on a great many scenes. 

I'd also say that many betas were much more casual fans than, say, me or other Sharders. Many are much more casual readers, and though we can't talk about it, there are people who disagreed with stuff on stuff that was or was not changed. 

Brandon ultimately tells the story he wants to tell.

[Varenus]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Metroid said:

Besides the victories which SomeRandomPeasant mentioned, she has driven off the unmade in the tower, communicated with a second one enough to have it not try to kill them, has pictures that document new undiscovered corrupted spren, as well as the true nature of spren in the cognitive realm. All of this together basically guarantees that she will be one of the most quoted and referenced scholars of this age along with her previous achievements. Then to Top it all off she has two of the most eligible/BA bachelors in Roshar mooning over her. 

I think she is doing just fine.

And those are all good points. 

I'm not trying to say that she has accomplished nothing. What I think is that those rally don't matter to her as much as Kaladin's victories matter to him. 

Yay, she spooked of the unmade. She was feeling good about herself, then Jasnah shows up and it all goes down the drain. 

And that last point sounds like more of a headache than a victory to me. 

[MonsterMetroid]

1 minute ago, Varenus said:

What I think is that those rally don't matter to her as much as Kaladin's victories matter to him

This is actually a super good point... something I haven't really thought about.

In actuality Shallan has accomplished some INSANELY impressive things. But she still thinks she is a failure because she isn't perfect. She is like the student in one of my college courses where the average test grade was a 65 with a one point curve but she is arguing on why her 99% test should have her point back because only her shortcomings matter to her. It's a really good point but I'm not sure if in her current mental state if she single handed defeated Odium if it would matter much to her.

[Dreamstorm]

4 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I feel like nowadays if a woman chooses to ba a stay at home mother or to get married before she is the top in her carrer, the majority would consider her weak or lacking ambition. I've seen so many cases of women looking down at others for choosing more traditional lives or deciding to be mothers instead of advancing career wise. It's so annoying when all those judgements come from other women. Instead of supporting everyone's choices we end up viciously critizicing and hating on women who don't fit our ideal of independence or power.  

I think it's less about what choice is being judged, as it is frankly impossible to be everything a woman is supposedly supposed to in order to be a satisfactory woman, but that every choice is judged.  I think stay at home moms are judged for not pursuing careers.  On the flip side, women in high-powered careers are judged for not wanting to be mothers.  Women who choose to neither be a mother nor have a high powered career are also judged.  The judgment works on all sides. 

4 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I agree with the general ideas you express in these posts. I don't want to offend anyone and I really hope this won't be interepreted as someone being responsable or at fault for this, but the overall feeling I got after I browse through the Reddit Beta AMA, was that almost all the beta readers were in consensus that this book didn't lack anything and it was perfect. Granted, I can't pretend to know what was discussed during the reviews and I don't want to blame anyone, but it was a bit surprising to me that no one was bothered by the things I've seen so many others complaining about (plots points never explored, scenes skipped, pacing etc). And I have to wonder why. If it wasn't for this forum to see other opinions, I would've think I read another book. Of course everyone looks and expects different things from a book, but I really find it surprising that none of our concernes raised more questions early on. Of course this is only speculating, I might me wrong since I don't know the full process, but I just wanted to point this out.

So, I may have this wrong, but I don't think beta readers are the literary critics in this process.  I think editors from the publisher are the ones who read the book to make sure it works as a literary document, and then the betas are superfans who are mainly there to spot continuity details and other misses and also give in-the-moment reactions.  For instance, I don't know how much a beta reader would look back on the book as a whole and say, well X character wasn't that fleshed out, or Y plotline doesn't have continuity from point A to B.  I could be wrong, but I know they received the books in sections and commented real time, so they wouldn't even have the full product as they were commenting, plus the reactions I saw were more shock and awe type of things, not actual critiques.  This may be incorrect though!  I do think they were chosen for being superfans, so at the very least, it wasn't a group which would be inclined to give intense negative substantive feedback (as that does require a certain emotional detachment from the author and the story.)  (ETA @Chaos that's very interesting not all are superfans; I had the impression that they were.  Sounds like I'm incorrect about how the whole process works.)

That being said, I was initially a bit disappointed with the book and some of the storylines.  (I felt the romance was quite off especially, and I love romance, so I was looking forward to that being a satisfying story.)  However, after rereading parts, I'm much happier with it.  It's not at all the book WoR was, but I do find it close to WoK - it feels like a book where a lot of track being laid and not a lot is really happening.  Yeah, Dalinar is cemented as our Bondsmith, but even that seems like setup for what he's going to do with it.  WoK had a tighter focus on three characters, so I think it felt more cohesive.  WoR was explosive, but it also ended in a fundamental shift in the very nature of the story with the move from an Alethi-centric plot to Urithiru.  I see OB as the book where track is being laid for our now expanded worldview and expanded cast of characters.  I don't think many of the plotlines were actually resolved (e.g. I'm pretty sure the Sadeas murder isn't going away), and I'm choosing to believe that was intentional.  I also found the character development of most of the characters really brought me deeper into their psyche, even if not everyone liked where that character went.  (All three of our mains had significant development - more so than in either of the prior book IMO - as did a number of side characters such as Rock and Teft and soon to be mains such as Jasnah and Renarin.  Adolin (and Navani) were not among those who got much development, so I can see disappointment from those who wanted that.)  This is all a tangent, but I was pretty critical of the book initially but have revised my opinion as I sat with it.  It is, however, not the book WoR was, but nor do I think it was trying to be.

1 hour ago, Starla said:

I’m struggling to find Shallan realistic at this point. I know all of the radiants are broken, but Shallan's particular character arc disturbs me in ways I don’t fully understand. And not the good kind of disturbed. Perhaps I am overthinking it and it’s not as bad as it seems, but at this point I have a hard time thinking about her without feeling like something is wrong there. Maybe we are supposed to feel this way… she doesn’t know who she is and neither do we. Regardless, it is disconcerting to not know how to feel about a character, nor have no idea where she might go from here. 

I think this may be intentional and also one of the plotlines which is nowhere near to resolved (Shallan's emotional development), but I could be wrong.  (And I know many are over this aspect of her character anyway.)

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Chaos]

9 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

So, I may have this wrong, but I don't think beta readers are the literary critics in this process.  I think editors from the publisher are the ones who read the book to make sure it works as a literary document, and then the betas are superfans who are mainly there to spot continuity details and other misses and also give in-the-moment reactions.  For instance, I don't know how much a beta reader would look back on the book as a whole and say, well X character wasn't that fleshed out, or Y plotline doesn't have continuity from point A to B.  I could be wrong, but I know they received the books in sections and commented real time, so they wouldn't even have the full product as they were commenting, plus the reactions I saw were more shock and awe type of things, not actual critiques.  This may be incorrect though!  I do think they were chosen for being superfans, so at the very least, it wasn't a group which would be inclined to give intense negative substantive feedback (as that does require a certain emotional detachment from the author and the story.)  (ETA @Chaos that's very interesting not all are superfans; I had the impression that they were.  Sounds like I'm incorrect about how the whole process works.)

It's not even "not all are superfans". Most are not superfans. They are there to give a wide variety of perspectives, and they definitely did. They do do things like you mention, but the majority are not superfans. Few of them are hardcore Sharder people (like, uh, the Sharders in the Acknowledgements).

You never really saw the actual critiques that occurred; a lot of the beta "reactions" that were posted were much more of the emotional reactions, for funsies. There were much more in depth commentary than raw reactions like that, and very profound critiques. There were parts where people wrote very long essays on things in the document. (I wrote one that was 2000 words. On what, I couldn't say.) And even at the end of the book when we got all five parts, many wrote very long full book debriefings about a huge variety of things. Again, guys, the word count of our beta commentary was longer than 500k words. A ton was mentioned.

[Varenus]

8 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't think many of the plotlines were actually resolved (e.g. I'm pretty sure the Sadeas murder isn't going away), and I'm choosing to believe that was intentional.

The Sadeas and Adolin thing reminds me of Perrin and the White Cloaks from WoT, which I hated every moment of.

For those who don't know:(WoT spoilers)

Spoiler

Perrin kills 2 scumbag White Cloaks in book one and the issue persists for over 10 books until the very end of the series. It was ridiculous that those two people Perrin kills cause so much trouble for him considering that Rand and Mat are responsible for hundred of thousands of deaths at least. Thinking about the trial Perrin goes through at the end still makes he laugh hysterically. 

I hope that the issue gets resolved in a way that makes sense and in a timely manner.

[Dreamstorm]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

It's not even "not all are superfans". Most are not superfans. They are there to give a wide variety of perspectives, and they definitely did. They do do things like you mention, but the majority are not superfans. Few of them are hardcore Sharder people (like, uh, the Sharders in the Acknowledgements).

You never really saw the actual critiques that occurred; a lot of the beta "reactions" that were posted were much more of the emotional reactions, for funsies. There were much more in depth commentary than raw reactions like that, and very profound critiques. There were parts where people wrote very long essays on things in the document. (I wrote one that was 2000 words. On what, I couldn't say.) And even at the end of the book when we got all five parts, many wrote very long full book debriefings about a huge variety of things. Again, guys, the word count of our beta commentary was longer than 500k words. A ton was mentioned.

This is incredibly interesting and thank you for fleshing out the process!  I had a different impression from reading the articles on Tor (didn't read the reddit thing because reddit confuses me), and my impression was not aligned with the reality.  Appreciate you explaining!

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

This is incredibly interesting and thank you for fleshing out the process!  I had a different impression from reading the articles on Tor (didn't read the reddit thing because reddit confuses me), which was not aligned with the reality.  Appreciate you explaining!

I do have very high bars for what it means to be a superfan, though  But I did feel like there were a ton of casual fans in the beta. 

[MonsterMetroid]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

It's not even "not all are superfans". Most are not superfans. They are there to give a wide variety of perspectives, and they definitely did. They do do things like you mention, but the majority are not superfans. Few of them are hardcore Sharder people (like, uh, the Sharders in the Acknowledgements).

Thanks for Sharing Chaos, I suppose it makes sense that Brandon wants to appeal to a large portion of people so his feedback group would be much more diverse in opinion than what we experience here.

[Chaos]

Just now, Ookla the Metroid said:

Thanks for Sharing Chaos, I suppose it makes sense that Brandon wants to appeal to a large portion of people so his feedback group would be much more diverse in opinion than what we experience here.

It is definitely vastly more diverse than your pool of Sharders. 

[Aminar]

Just now, Ookla the Metroid said:

Thanks for Sharing Chaos, I suppose it makes sense that Brandon wants to appeal to a large portion of people so his feedback group would be much more diverse in opinion than what we experience here.

This. If all the Betareaders were superfans we'd be getting terrible books focused on the details most readers don't notice or care about versus the feelings and emotions that matter. 

[Modal Seoul]

I just looked here, and I must admit, didn't feel very comfortable reading all the hate for Shallan.

I believe Shallan is a character brimming with potential, we just haven't seen it yet.

With a series as large as it is already, we need to be patient.

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, Aminar said:

This. If all the Betareaders were superfans we'd be getting terrible books focused on the details most readers don't notice or care about versus the feelings and emotions that matter. 

I mean, superfans have lots of very strong opinions on feelings and emotions too and the arc of the story, but I do see your point. 

[Aminar]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

I mean, superfans have lots of very strong opinions on feelings and emotions too and the arc of the story, but I do see your point. 

Absolutely. But the more we congregate... The more nitty gritty the discussion gets. 

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, Aminar said:

Absolutely. But the more we congregate... The more nitty gritty the discussion gets. 

I think that's really more of a matter of what kind of fans get together. There are lots of "superfans" who don't care about realmatics or magic system theorizing at all.

[MonsterMetroid]

6 minutes ago, Captains Domon said:

I just looked here, and I must admit, didn't feel very comfortable reading all the hate for Shallan.

You came to a thread entitled [OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread and you didnt feel comfortable reading all the hate?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Metroid

[Modal Seoul]

Just now, Ookla the Metroid said:

You came to a thread entitled [OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread and you didnt feel comfortable reading all the hate?

With the things said in the thread about the love triangle, I was hesitant.

[Aminar]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Grey said:

I think that's really more of a matter of what kind of fans get together. There are lots of "superfans" who don't care about realmatics or magic system theorizing at all.

And those ones tend to be the ones that scare me.

[StrikerEZ]

Hmmm...I've avoided commenting in this thread for awhile now, and I was never really sure why. Just reading this thread made me feel....off.

And that's the point I'm going to make here. Yes, I understand that several (aka most) people seem to find something wrong with Shallan or the way she was handled in this book. My initial reaction as I was reading was mostly the same. But as I've thought about it while reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that what happened to Shallan in OB, while very strange and uncomfortable to read, was necessary. 

Like someone else mentioned in this thread (sorry for forgetting who), Shallan has gone through a lot in very, very little time. She is someone who has no idea what or who she really is, and add on top of that the fact that she killed both of her parents, had a pretty terrible childhood, and very obviously has some kind of mental disorder (however slight it is). Even in WoK and WoR, she always gave slightly different facades when she was around different people, and I can totally relate to this. It took me awhile to realize why Shallan was always so unsettling for me to read: it's because I relate far too well with who she is as a person. Like Shallan, I give off different versions of myself depending on who I am with or where I am. It's natural for most people, even if they don't quite realize it most of the time. The problem Shallan is facing though is that she has an added disorder in top of that, coupled with the ability to literally change who she is. (Supported by this WoB. It doesn't outright state it as fact, but it can be assumed that Shallan is actually slightly altering her Identity when she shifts personalities)

In her situation, with how messed up, broken, and traumatized she is, I completely understand why she has taken on these multiple personas. It makes perfect sense. I would certainly do the same if I were in her position. What makes her arc so uncomfortable to read is how important it is. The story of OB would be very, very different if Shallan's personalities were not there. Would it be better or worse? I would say worse, but there would definitely be those who would say better. 

The thing is, I believe that this is Brandon's style of writing taking a very obvious effect here. I won't go into to much specifics, but there were parts in Well of Ascension and Shadows of Self where I absolutely hated what the characters were put through. Same can be said for WoR, with Kaladin's struggle with hating lighteyes and trying to uphold his oaths. The point I'm trying to make here is that I believe what Brandon is doing with Shallan in OB is what he does with all of his main characters. After their first book, he puts them through really intense, uncomfortable struggles so that they can come out stronger and better from it. And I feel like he did that perfectly in this book. Shallan went through a horrible struggle in this book, and by the end of it she was better (some would argue she was worse than she started, but I'd disagree. She has multiple personalities now, yes, but she has accepted her Truths more, I'd argue). In the next book, she will likely have more struggles to face, just like Kaladin had after he came over his struggles in WoR. 

This ended up being more rambling than I meant it to, but I felt like I needed to add a dissenting voice to one which was largely negative.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

I will say this: many of the scenes that went "missing" or weren't touched on were brought up. They definitely were, on a great many scenes. 

I'd also say that many betas were much more casual fans than, say, me or other Sharders. Many are much more casual readers, and though we can't talk about it, there are people who disagreed with stuff on stuff that was or was not changed. 

Brandon ultimately tells the story he wants to tell.

This bothers me and I hope what follows will not come across in the wrong manner: I feel I am tip-toeing on eggs or sharp broken glass, but wasn't one of the criteria to be chosen to become a beta reader to be involved within the community? Isn't what Brandon and his team are saying on the matter, through the official channels: be involved, we will notice you and you may get a chance? Isn't the advice one beta reader gave during this very same AMA: be involved in discussion, find a subject which passionate you, become known for it and you may get a chance? 

Then why did it seem to me most beta readers were not chosen out per the criteria Brandon himself listed? How come many beta readers are so casual fans they weren't aware of the topics, the involved fans have actually been discussing during those past four years? It didn't take a great deal of involvement into the fandom to realize the aftermath of Sadeas's death and the romance angle were two of the most talked about subjects... I understand Brandon wants to have a diverse sample of beta readers, but why did I get the impression the fringe of readers I am a part of got no voice in it? 

Sorry, I hope this did not come out wrong or anything, but it has been bothering me. 

[Wolven]

I can understand why some might not like Shallan, she's not one of my favorites, but a badly written character?  I don't think that at all.  She is exactly what I would expect someone who had gone through what she had gone through to be.  She was having to be different people from the time she was a child.  Her identities are fascinating to read and I am definitely curious to see how she ends up.    

Is her humor a little cringe inducing at times, yes, but at times I find her funny.  Not nearly as much so as I find Lopen. but for Shallan it's clearly a defense mechanism and it fits.

I am glad that she chose Adolin over Kaladin though.  She fits better with the princeling, and it let's me hold out some small, tiny iota of hope for Jasnah and Kaladin.  Probably not gonna happen but...ya never know.  

 

 

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

This bothers me and I hope what follows will not come across in the wrong manner: I feel I am tip-toeing on eggs or sharp broken glass, but wasn't one of the criteria to be chosen to become a beta reader to be involved within the community? Isn't what Brandon and his team are saying on the matter, through the official channels: be involved, we will notice you and you may get a chance? Isn't the advice one beta reader gave during this very same AMA: be involved in discussion, find a subject which passionate you, become known for it and you may get a chance? 

Then why did it seem to me most beta readers were not chosen out per the criteria Brandon himself listed? How come many beta readers are so casual fans they weren't aware of the topics, the involved fans have actually been discussing during those past four years? It didn't take a great deal of involvement into the fandom to realize the aftermath of Sadeas's death and the romance angle were two of the most talked about subjects... I understand Brandon wants to have a diverse sample of beta readers, but why did I get the impression the fringe of readers I am a part of got no voice in it? 

Sorry, I hope this did not come out wrong or anything, but it has been bothering me. 

There's more to the fandom than 17th Shard (as much as I wish it weren't true!), and they are chosen from a wide variety of places and involvement, as you can see from the beta AMA. 

However, you should really leave your anger/distaste towards Brandon, as he tells the story he wants to tell. Sometimes he will change things, sometimes he won't. These things you mention were brought up, and in particular the romance was brought up a huge amount. Brandon will tell the story he wants. I would encourage you to bring it up with him sometime. You can always email him, or see him at an event. But really, betas are hardly all powerful. 

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

There's more to the fandom than 17th Shard (as much as I wish it weren't true!), and they are chosen from a wide variety of places and involvement, as you can see from the beta AMA. 

However, you should really leave your anger/distaste towards Brandon, as he tells the story he wants to tell. Sometimes he will change things, sometimes he won't. These things you mention were brought up, and in particular the romance was brought up a huge amount. Brandon will tell the story he wants. I would encourage you to bring it up with him sometime. You can always email him, or see him at an event. But really, betas are hardly all powerful. 

We all know there is more to the fandom than the 17th Shard, it just seemed very odd several of the readers questions were answered by "Oh it was discussed, but ultimately, we didn't really care all that much about it". I noted it. Others noted it.

I am not angry at the beta readers and I apologize if I sounded like if I were. I however do not feel I have expressed "anger" nor "distaste" and if it seemed to have some ill-feeling towards the beta readers, know there are reasons for this which I cannot voice out on the public thread. Those reasons have however nothing to do with my current questioning: I am trying my best to voice out a real concern of mine using the most neutral way I can find.

I understand beta readers are not powerful, but some of us have felt we were the odd ones out for being disappointed with given aspects of the books. As for voicing it out to Brandon, I hardly know if it'll matter. I tried sending an email, once, and I got no answer. I understand he is busy and doesn't have the time, I am not mad nor surprised, but it seems to me this way of communicating is not really optimum and even if I did communicate, to what purpose?

[Chaos]

Just now, maxal said:

We all know there is more to the fandom than the 17th Shard, it just seemed very odd several of the readers questions were answered by "Oh it was discussed, but ultimately, we didn't really care all that much about it". I noted it. Others noted it.

I am not angry at the beta readers and I apologize if I sounded like if I were. I however do not feel I have expressed "anger" nor "distaste" and if it seemed to have some ill-feeling towards the beta readers, know there are reasons for this which I cannot voice out on the public thread. Those reasons have however nothing to do with my current questioning: I am trying my best to voice out a real concern of mine using the most neutral way I can find.

I understand beta readers are not powerful, but some of us have felt we were the odd ones out for being disappointed with given aspects of the books. As for voicing it out to Brandon, I hardly know if it'll matter. I tried sending an email, once, and I got no answer. I understand he is busy and doesn't have the time, I am not mad nor surprised, but it seems to me this way of communicating is not really optimum and even if I did communicate, to what purpose?

I reread the Beta AMA and I don't think it's nearly as extreme as you are making it out to be, but... okay. 

His emails are read, but few are responded to. They are read.

[maxal]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I reread the Beta AMA and I don't think it's nearly as extreme as you are making it out to be, but... okay. 

His emails are read, but few are responded to. They are read.

I wasn't referring just to the AMA. I was also referring to "other events". The AMA was not extreme, but as I said, others have noted it, not just I.

Edited December 4, 2017 by maxal