[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Hm, I'll have to disagree here, but this might be because we have a different view on how and why she made the choice to marry Adolin. For me, it felt like she did it more out of necessity, because Adolin recognized her self-perceived true self, then out of love. I never felt like I've read love between Adolin and Shallan (but I also never read that between Kaladin and Shallan, not that they had much possibility to explore that angle, for that matter), but rather passion and infatuation. The problem I have with Shallan's choice was the circumstance and her mental distress in which the choice was made. I always felt like, that she was trying very hard to convince herself, that Adolin is the right one for her, which is not what I would call a conscious choice made out of love. I think, that Shallan shouldn't have chosen at all yet, but I also have a different view on Shallan's OSDD, so that might stem from that.

But I'll agree to disagree in advance, to keep in the spirit of burying the hatchet

Actually, I do think some of your grievances are totally warranted. My thoughts are Shallan and Adolin are in love one with another, my thoughts are the textual at hand is considered to be sufficient (I am not saying it is, I am saying I believe this was the author's intend when he wrote it) for it to convey this idea to the readers. In reality, it doesn't delve into it deeply enough to convince all readers except those willing to close an eye or two over it, hence the whole problem with the romance angle you and other readers have pointed out. It boils down to Brandon not having convinced significantly his entire readership Shallan and Adolin do love each other: he convinced many, others are willing to believe it, but it wasn't an important enough plot point to really shine throughout the narrative. This is exactly the same argument I have been using on Adolin: some readers are perfectly fine with his development in OB, they think it really captures the essence of Adolin's character and they happily fill in the voids with whatever they want which makes the story coherent for them, other readers such as myself are disappointed we didn't get a coherent story from the start. 

My grievances, your grievances, they might be about different plot elements, but the recoup somewhere in the middle: we both think character development was not consistent in the book, we both think plot elements within the relationship departments were glossed over or literally skipped and we were both dissatisfied with those aspects of the story as we feel it wasn't deep enough to be either plausible nor satisfying. You and I are much more within an agreement then we are both willing to admit: we just aren't focusing onto the same story elements nor the same plot lines.

It boils to us not being supposed to ask ourselves the questions we are asking: the book is supposed to be sufficient, everyone who reviewed the book claimed it was sufficient, so why aren't we thinking it is?

20 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I do agree with that general sentiment, but I feel like, that this rather describes Navani. But Navani wasn't a Knight Radiant, when she married Gavilar... I don't think Shallan is ready to found a family. Nor do I think, that she has the time or headspace to fully commit herself to that, unlike Navani had.

I used the "choosing the marry" angle because it was referenced into this thread. In the end, it boils down to female characters having the right to make their own choices and how those choices does not make them any less independent nor strong. Women can be strong no matter their choices and this includes Shallan, whether we agree with her choices or not. I sometimes feel there are readers which considered only one path is acceptable for female characters to grow while they are being more lenient with male characters: this may just be an impression, but it usually nags me when I read a thread like this one.

21 minutes ago, Oberyn said:

It is somewhat offtopic but I just wanted to say that your post is part of the reason this community is pretty amazing to post or lurk. You quoted a post that was just being mean, trashing Shallan with not many arguments and with all the patience in the world you pointed everything wrong with that without being mean yourself.

Thanks. Being mean is often liberating but usually yields little results. I cannot claim I have always succeeded in being patient and poised, but I am glad I did it this time around.

[dantlee]

I can understand some of the criticisms of Shallan's character, and especially the multiple personalities direction that Brandon has taken her in OB, but I agree with others in this thread that the hate is overblown and often stems from personal politics, or a dislike of her romantic arcs. She's far from my favorite character, and I actually liked her a lot more before OB, because I don't think Brandon has done an especially good job portraying split personalities (in contrast, I think the USA show Mr. Robot has done a fantastic job of examining that particular issue). 

The point remains that Shallan has undergone an almost unbearable amount of trauma throughout her life, something that Kaladin often remarks on (who, I would add, is an equally if not more broken person, but gets far less hate because of his heroics and combat ability). As someone who had an extremely physically and emotionally abusive, alcoholic father growing up, I find Shallan extremely relatable. It took decades for me to heal, and only thanks to really fantastic mentors, friends, and lovers who were incredibly supportive of me throughout high school and college - something that Shallan has never had until very recently in her life. She is still very young and inexperienced in both life and love, and is bound to make decisions that readers may vehemently disagree with - and decisions she herself will likely come to regret as she grows as a person and Knight Radiant. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by dantlee

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

My grievances, your grievances, they might be about different plot elements, but the recoup somewhere in the middle: we both think character development was not consistent in the book, we both think plot elements within the relationship departments were glossed over or literally skipped and we were both dissatisfied with those aspects of the story as we feel it wasn't deep enough to be either plausible nor satisfying. You and I are much more within an agreement then we are both willing to admit: we just aren't focusing onto the same story elements nor the same plot lines.

It boils to us not being supposed to ask ourselves the questions we are asking: the book is supposed to be sufficient, everyone who reviewed the book claimed it was sufficient, so why aren't we thinking it is?

Yes, I think, that is really accurate. I agree. Especially the last sentence is a question, that I've been asking myself often in the last weeks.

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

In the end, it boils down to female characters having the right to make their own choices and how those choices does not make them any less independent nor strong. Women can be strong no matter their choices and this includes Shallan, whether we agree with her choices or not.

Like I said, I agree with the general sentiment  And I chose Navani, because I feel, that she best fits into that "archetype" and it is always easier to have a on-hand example to compare to, but I also think, that we can't disregard, that Shallan is a completely different character with completely different responsibilities, which is why I think, that her choice to marry and (possibly) have children might hamper her ability to make similar big choices in the future. I feel like, that her marriage will be in direct interference with her path as a Lightweaver, but I might be completely wrong in the end.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Shallan will never be on my favorite list of characters. But neither will she be on my most hated list of characters either. I simply find her boring. I think I have only read her chapters on WoK once, all the other re-reads I skipped her. WoR I also skipped on rereads her parts usually till she killed Tyn. On OB her chapters were often the hardest to read, and I will likely skip much of her actions on Kholinar on rereads. 

I think part of the problem is she is lying to herself all the time. If I'm reading a character's pov I like knowing what they are thinking. Reading the pov of a character who has no idea what she is really thinking is exhausting and yields little except how bonkers she is. Another problem is in OB she reminded me a lot of Perrin on WoT, crossing the exact same fence a dozen times.

She didn't seem to go forwards, all her OB progression seemed backwards or in circles. She is the only character for which this happened. Everyone else in OB went forwards on their respective paths, except her. So...what is the point of a 300 pg pov (just picked a possible number so don't shoot me on this figure) of a character that went in lots of circles and achieved almost nothing? I'd be happier if a significant amount of those pages was given to any other chaacter as I'm sure they would progress a lot more, but I know this won't happen and Shallan will always be an important part of SA. Just a boring one for me, that I have little interest in reading and that I will generally skip on rereads. The most fun part for me to read is the GB parts, and she had little contact with them in OB. 

I know some people like that and I am happy the character works for some, but I don't see myself ever becoming too excited/concerned/hyped over what Shallan does or does not do. I may have some feelings regarding her, but they won't be the maximun ones on the scale ^^. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard
Spelling

[Stairdweller]

Quote

What is a woman’s place in this modern world? Jasnah Kholin’s words read. I rebel against this question, though so many of my peers ask it. The inherent bias in the inquiry seems invisible to so many of them. They consider themselves progressive because they are willing to challenge many of the assumptions of the past. They ignore the greater assumption— that a “place” for women must be defined and set forth to begin with. Half of the population must somehow be reduced to the role arrived at by a single conversation . No matter how broad that role is, it will be— by nature —a reduction from the infinite variety that is womanhood. I say that there is no role for women—there is, instead, a role for each woman, and she must make it for herself. For some, it will be the role of scholar ; for others, it will be the role of wife. For others, it will be both. For yet others, it will be neither. Do not mistake me in assuming I value one woman’s role above another. My point is not to stratify our society— we have done that far too well already —my point is to diversify our discourse. A woman’s strength should not be in her role, whatever she chooses it to be, but in the power to choose that role. It is amazing to me that I even have to make this point, as I see it as the very foundation of our conversation.

- Chapter 65 of words of radiance; Shallan is reading an unnamed book by Jasnah Kholin

Um... Maybe we should listen to Jasnah.

[maxal]

24 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yes, I think, that is really accurate. I agree. Especially the last sentence is a question, that I've been asking myself often in the last weeks.

So did I, so did I. I keep being told this is the narrative Brandon wanted to write, I keep being told if Brandon decided not give the focus to one given arc or another, then it was because the narrative would have diminished if he did, but why is it I find it is diminished because he didn't? It has gotten very frustrating when everyone having reviewed the book and having been into a position where they had the opportunity to give feedback to the author did not address those points, all thinking if Brandon choose to write the story in a given way, then it is the perfect way. It made me think the group of reviewers perhaps wasn't a diverse as it should have been or its purpose is else entirely. Or maybe we both misunderstood Brandon's style when we got engrossed within the series. Lots of questions indeed.

30 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Like I said, I agree with the general sentiment  And I chose Navani, because I feel, that she best fits into that "archetype" and it is always easier to have a on-hand example to compare to, but I also think, that we can't disregard, that Shallan is a completely different character with completely different responsibilities, which is why I think, that her choice to marry and (possibly) have children might hamper her ability to make similar big choices in the future. I feel like, that her marriage will be in direct interference with her path as a Lightweaver, but I might be completely wrong in the end.

I cannot predict how the story will unfold, I have proven to be really off in doing it anyway. I just think Shallan can be a strong character no matter what she chooses to be. Navani happens to be one of those characters I think is in dire need of better characterization. She's always been a little bland to me.

[Awesomness]

Oh this is getting interesting

Personally, I like Shallan though I have often felt frustrated or annoyed with her; but I woudn´d say she is badly written, or written to fulfill some group´s expectations.

What bugs me about Shallan is that some of her actions and thoughts show us that she is really nice, caring, sharp, funny, sensitive and can be very badass in her own way (among other positive characteristics that don't come to my mind right now). But with all this stuff about her lying and manipulating everyone from day one, pretending to be different people (and then believing it!), being mean and classist, verbally attacking people just because she wants to appear sharp or because she is annoyed, trying to do everything by herself, running away from her problems... and so many actions that read as disgusting and over the top... I just don't enjoy her as much.

I know all her actions are coherent and believable from her POV,  that she is struggling the best way she knows and is usually effective. I liked her un WOK and felt really moved by her backstory in WOR. Also in WOR we see her grow a lot, only to go backwards in OB, and finish her arc in a devious positive note. So altogether I have mixed feelings.

People with mental issues are usually frustrating (to themselves and to others). Just like Kaladin, I see she has lot of issues and want her to move on so badly, that reading some stuff she does just irks me. I just want to see her as the girl I know she can be.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Awesomness
autocorrectionspren

[zpoly]

On 12/2/2017 at 0:36 PM, Ookla the Toasted said:

Welcome! Hope to see you around in the future!

That said, I disagree with you :-P Shallan is one of my favorite characters. First off, I like her jokes, and I do find them funny. I also feel symphaty for her because of her past, which I found extremely tragic. In addition, she has some awesome moments, such as when she uses her drawings to make others see the best side of themselves, which has led to some heart-warming moments. Her insecurities, mental unstableness, and split-personas also makes her interesting to read. As an added bonus, she has the best spren (Pattern). 

That said, I know she is a controversial character. People mostly tend to like Kaladin and Dalinar, but Shallan has always been subject to discussion.

I agree that about her awesome where she brings out the best in people like her crew of deserters and with Elhokar. I think her character is seriously psychologically messed up and the progression of her multiple personality disorder was written unbelievably. I wouldn't say she's my favorite character, but I love the complexity of her personalities and i think the character development was consistent and deep. Brandon's character development in general is unrivaled in my opinion. 

[djammmer]

15 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

What bugs me about Shallan is that some of her actions and thoughts show us that she is really nice, caring, sharp, funny, sensitive and can be very badass in her own way (among other positive characteristics that don't come to my mind right now). But with all this stuff about her lying and manipulating everyone from day one, pretending to be different people (and then believing it!), being mean and classist, verbally attacking people just because she wants to appear sharp or because she is annoyed, trying to do everything by herself, running away from her problems... and so many actions that read as disgusting and over the top... 

Sounds like many teenagers I know.  Both back when I was one, and today.  They don't know everything though they think and act as they do.  They act irrationally, even paradoxical with their own values and beliefs.  They don't know out of multiple choices who they truly love.  They care a lot about what people think of them, and will say and to things (esp shocking/blunt things) do get social credibility/reputation.   They will avoid doing homework for a fun night out on the town.

 

seems to me she is very well written... And that's before adding in all her trauma, environment of abuse, and mental challenges.

 

i did skip her chapters eight years ago first reading WoK.  Found hem boring compared to the Kallidan chapters.  But now I easily prefer hers to his.  And pattern is just frosting on the cake.

[mariapapadia]

3 hours ago, Ammanas said:

I have to disagree with people that think that a self actualized woman is a show of strength. I think Navani is the woman that shows the most strength in the series. She could also be the strongest character period. She was the one that had to keep the kingdom together immediately following Gavilars death, that raised children without her spouse, that had to face everyday knowing that her husband was murdered and will never see him again, that kept the alliance together when Dalinar was drinking, that had to deal with years of being cast aside (before she reached the shattered plains). I think a real show of strength is keeping a positive outlook despite your trials, raising a family without your spouse, and sacrificing for others.

I think "self actualized" women are mostly selfish and furthering there own careers and ambitions.

I don't particulary agree with the idea that self actualized women are mostly selfish, but I do agree that is a shame not so many people talk about how strong of a character Navani is. When it comes to strong characters, I feel like the tendency is to consider one strong if he/she is a great fighter or is independent like Jashnah , but for me the strongest asset one can have is their character and mental strength to push through. There are different types of strenght among all out female characters in SA.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I could write an essay as to why I think readers are so often trashing Shallan, but praising Jasnah. I love Shallan because she isn't the typical fantasy female character: yes she chose to marry a man she loved, she chose this over her independence and this makes me love her even more. Why? Because it is exactly the opposite of what typical female fantasy characters are usually doing as if, to write a strong female character, an author had to make her "single", independent", "never making a decision based on something as futile as love".

Women can be all that they want. Women can be strong no matter the choices they make. The idea only characters such as Jasnah are to be considered worthy female characters is more bothersome to me. A woman can be strong, independent, keep her agency while having chosen to marry a man and have children. The idea women's choice is so limited is really baffling and, as such, I loved Brandon introducing Shallan.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I used the "choosing the marry" angle because it was referenced into this thread. In the end, it boils down to female characters having the right to make their own choices and how those choices does not make them any less independent nor strong. Women can be strong no matter their choices and this includes Shallan, whether we agree with her choices or not. I sometimes feel there are readers which considered only one path is acceptable for female characters to grow while they are being more lenient with male characters: this may just be an impression, but it usually nags me when I read a thread like this one.

THIS! THIS SHOULD BE PINNED! I cannot tell you how much this frustrates me in everyday life as well as in the online environment ! I feel like nowadays if a woman chooses to ba a stay at home mother or to get married before she is the top in her carrer, the majority would consider her weak or lacking ambition. I've seen so many cases of women looking down at others for choosing more traditional lives or deciding to be mothers instead of advancing career wise. It's so annoying when all those judgements come from other women. Instead of supporting everyone's choices we end up viciously critizicing and hating on women who don't fit our ideal of independence or power.  

I personally love Jasnah as well, but this is the beauty in SA, I feel we get a lot of representation when it comes to strong female characters. "One size doesn't fit them all"

1 hour ago, maxal said:

So did I, so did I. I keep being told this is the narrative Brandon wanted to write, I keep being told if Brandon decided not give the focus to one given arc or another, then it was because the narrative would have diminished if he did, but why is it I find it is diminished because he didn't? It has gotten very frustrating when everyone having reviewed the book and having been into a position where they had the opportunity to give feedback to the author did not address those points, all thinking if Brandon choose to write the story in a given way, then it is the perfect way. It made me think the group of reviewers perhaps wasn't a diverse as it should have been or its purpose is else entirely. Or maybe we both misunderstood Brandon's style when we got engrossed within the series. Lots of questions indeed.

I cannot predict how the story will unfold, I have proven to be really off in doing it anyway. I just think Shallan can be a strong character no matter what she chooses to be. Navani happens to be one of those characters I think is in dire need of better characterization. She's always been a little bland to me.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Well... I can't deny it has been insinuated the entire Adolin focus within SA has been my fault either directly or indirectly. I just wanted people, not necessarily you specifically, to be reminded I have absolutely no say into what gets into the book and I might have loved to discuss Adolin's character for the past four years, but all can appreciate just how little agency my little person actually had.

Everyone whom is closed to Brandon loved Adolin in OB: I am one of the only ones to openly criticize how the author has made the character one-dimensional. I still love Adolin, but I fear he will remain a "good idea on paper which never got explored decently". It bugs me immensely how people actually having agency with the author are not recognizing this is an issue, it bugs me they are brushing away so easily my argumentation as to why Adolin was so unsatisfying despite the wonderful Maya arc.

I think those who found Adolin interesting in OB just liked the fact his character has no drama, no angst, no personality and was just around to do things when no one else seemed to be able to do them. My problem with it is it totally clashed with so many previous developments we had for Adolin it made his character appear cartoonist more than realistic. I have literally no means to make my thoughts being known to Brandon nor do I think he'd actually listen to the critic if I were to voice it out. Everyone with a say on the matter loved the book.

I agree with the general ideas you express in these posts. I don't want to offend anyone and I really hope this won't be interepreted as someone being responsable or at fault for this, but the overall feeling I got after I browse through the Reddit Beta AMA, was that almost all the beta readers were in consensus that this book didn't lack anything and it was perfect. Granted, I can't pretend to know what was discussed during the reviews and I don't want to blame anyone, but it was a bit surprising to me that no one was bothered by the things I've seen so many others complaining about (plots points never explored, scenes skipped, pacing etc). And I have to wonder why. If it wasn't for this forum to see other opinions, I would've think I read another book. Of course everyone looks and expects different things from a book, but I really find it surprising that none of our concernes raised more questions early on. Of course this is only speculating, I might me wrong since I don't know the full process, but I just wanted to point this out.  

 

As for Shallan being disliked.. I can't relate to those people. I loved Shallan from the beginning, maybe because she reminded me in a way of Hermione Granger (which is still one of my favourite female characters in literature). Thought lately, she started to put me off a bit, not necessarily because of her character, but because of how polarizing she is. So I feel I have to take a step back a little ( and here I am talking in a Shallan thread ).

 I might be biased in this as well, because Shallan is the character in SA that reminds me the most of myself, because I always felt, especially the more I interacted with people from different cultures and backgrounds, that I have to put on a mask for everyone, in order to be accepted. And it's not only about the insecurities I had regarding myself, but about other people's acceptance (or lack thereof ) of different ideas/opinions. Although Shallan's problem become worse and worse, what she does in the beginning, in WoK or WoR doesn't seem much different to what ,I belive, everyone does to an extent, which is to put on a facade for the outside world and let only a small group, maybe close friends, family, SOs see our real personality. 

I finally forced convinced my sister to read WoK and to my disspointment she told me she doesn't like Shallan  So I wanted to have a firsthand impression of why someone would dislike Shallan. She told me it's mostly because of her arc so far, she found it a bit improbable that someone who has been sheltered her whole life would just go out trying to fool one of the smartest women in the world, thinking she would succede. Now I just have to wait for her to read more and maybe get to WoR. If after that she still doesn't like it, I might me in the market for a new sister 

Edited December 3, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Beatsmorn]

Shallan is my favourite character since Book 1. Unluckily, character writing was pretty poor in Oathbringer - Shallan, Jasnah, Amaram, even damnation Kaladin - they all suffer from bad character development so much.

I think you missed a point - her bad jokes were written to show, that she's acting unnaturally, forcing herself to be funny - and they are compulsion from times, when her jokes where only source of happiness for her. She's still IMO most interesting female character Sanderson ever wrote and I love her backstory. But I'm the guy who loved Sazed crippling deppresion interludes in Mistborn too, so you've got the idea.

[maxal]

24 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I don't particulary agree with the idea that self actualized women are mostly selfish, but I do agree that is a shame not so many people talk about how strong of a character Navani is. When it comes to strong characters, I feel like the tendency is to consider one strong if he/she is a great fighter or is independent like Jashnah , but for me the strongest asset one can have is their character and mental strength to push through. There are different types of strenght among all out female characters in SA.

I am so tired of women being labeled in such negative manner: if one of us decides to be ambitious and career oriented, she will be labeled as selfish, if another chooses not to have a career, she will be labeled as lazy and as a bad example to young girls. It seems there is such limited choices for women which are universally considered "acceptable", it feels no matter what a fantasy character chooses, indeed if it isn't the fighter nor the scholar, people will bash the character. People are literally praising characters such as Renarin which show strength can come into various ways and doesn't have to be physical, characters which defy the general stereotype within literacy, but when if a female character is trying to depict strength into a different way, she is overly criticized.

It is something I have liked about Marasi's character into Mistborn: she wants to be a detective, she likes firing guns, but at the same time, she enjoys wearing a dress. It is also something I have liked about Vin: she is a Mistborn, a fighter, but she enjoys balls and lovely gowns. I have also liked a character like Alrianne whom appear frivolous and insignificant, but has a strength no one even suspected. These all were interesting takes on female characters and all revolved around the same idea: female characters do not have to obey to canvas or another.

Shallan is no exception. She is allowed to be naive, over-eager and excited. She is allowed to enjoy both being elegant and wearing trousers while drinking hard liquor: she doesn't have to obey to one convention nor the other... Now if only Shallan herself would realize this, but this is another topic in itself.

34 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

THIS! THIS SHOULD BE PINNED! I cannot tell you how much this frustrates me in everyday life as well as in the online environment ! I feel like nowadays if a woman chooses to ba a stay at home mother or to get married before she is the top in her carrer, the majority would consider her weak or lacking ambition. I've seen so many cases of women looking down at others for choosing more traditional lives or deciding to be mothers instead of advancing career wise. It's so annoying when all those judgements come from other women. Instead of supporting everyone's choices we end up viciously critizicing and hating on women who don't fit our ideal of independence or power.  

I personally love Jasnah as well, but this is the beauty in SA, I feel we get a lot of representation when it comes to strong female characters. "One size doesn't fit them all"

Thanks  It goes further than that... Nowadays, people consider life is over at the age of 30, so if you haven't managed to achieve everything by this age (choose the thing to achieve, family, house, marriage, career, children or all at once ), then you are a failure. Talking to most people, they do not seem to realize their career will be going on for another 40 years... or so  I have seen women work hard to get it all: the three kids, the perfect house, the management position then the vice-president position or the MBA and honestly it deflated me because, well, I didn't. 

Oh storm. It is OK not to aim for break the glass ceiling at 30 or before you turn 40. It is OK to put the career into slow mode for a few years just as it is OK not to. And it is OK too to choose to be, oh horror, a stay at home mother: for some people, this really is the best choice and no it isn't a career suicide nor a step back by one century. What did I say above? Oh yeah we're going to work until we are 70, so huh, there's plenty of time. In the end, each choice is personal and one thing I have very stubbornly learn into life is anything thinking they can walk through it without having none of its values being shaken a little is shoving a finger through the eye socket right into the brain. Choices are so personal and we may end up making choices we thought we would never make, but turns out being the right one, at the time where we make them. Another woman will make a different choice and this will work for her too. I have made choices I thought were detrimental, ridiculous, choices I thought I would never make and yet... I made them because they were the right ones for me at the time where I made them. I am no less of a person for it.

Strength and independence is not a function of choices: it is a function of whom you are.

47 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I agree with the general ideas you express in these posts. I don't want to offend anyone and I really hope this won't be interepreted as someone being responsable or at fault for this, but the overall feeling I got after I browse through the Reddit Beta AMA, was that almost all the beta readers were in consensus that this book didn't lack anything and it was perfect. Granted, I can't pretend to know what was discussed during the reviews and I don't want to blame anyone, but it was a bit surprising to me that no one was bothered by the things I've seen so many others complaining about (plots points never explored, scenes skipped, pacing etc). And I have to wonder why. If it wasn't for this forum to see other opinions, I would've think I read another book. Of course everyone looks and expects different things from a book, but I really find it surprising that none of our concernes raised more questions early on. Of course this is only speculating, I might me wrong since I don't know the full process, but I just wanted to point this out.  

I agree with you about the AMA: I had the same feelings. People kept asking about a few plot points readers have felt weren't dealt with satisfyingly and they kept answering: "Oh we discussed it but so much else was happening, we didn't really care...". It was asked if they noted how a few chosen story arcs might not be considered very satisfying for the greater readership and the answer was rather telling: no one ever discussed how the readership would react as everyone thought the book was amazing. This bothered me: it isn't as if the story aspects which are actually being criticized hadn't been talked about in a visible manner... I then realized it may because the group of people chosen probably weren't individuals actually participating within those discussions.  Another comment which bothered me is when it was said: "All beta readers are die-hard Brandon's fans and as such are in for anything he writes no matter what it is." or something along those lines... Some of them were even a little mean towards posters who tried to challenge some answers...

Everyone is tip-toeing around the issue since OB's release. Truth is, several of us thought the story wasn't handled as well as within the previous books for various reasons, but if I recoup them all, they all revolve around the same elements: missing scenes, broken promises to the reader, pacing and character development lack for a few given aspect of the narrative. I still love SA, but a lot of things went wrong with OB for me.

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

As for Shallan being disliked.. I can't relate to those people. I loved Shallan from the beginning, maybe because she reminded me in a way of Hermione Granger (which is still one of my favourite female characters in literature). Thought lately, she started to put me off a bit, not necessarily because of her character, but because of how polarizing she is. So I feel I have to take a step back a little ( and here I am talking in a Shallan thread ).

 I might be biased in this as well, because Shallan is the character in SA that reminds me the most of myself, because I always felt, especially the more I interacted with people from different cultures and backgrounds, that I have to put on a mask for everyone, in order to be accepted. And it's not only about the insecurities I had regarding myself, but about other people's acceptance (or lack thereof ) of different ideas/opinions. Although Shallan's problem become worse and worse, what she does in the beginning, in WoK or WoR doesn't seem much different to what ,I belive, everyone does to an extent, which is to put on a facade for the outside world and let only a small group, maybe close friends, family, SOs see our real personality. 

I finally forced convinced my sister to read WoK and to my disspointment she told me she doesn't like Shallan  So I wanted to have a firsthand impression of why someone would dislike Shallan. She told me it's mostly because of her arc so far, she found it a bit improbable that someone who has been sheltered her whole life would just go out trying to fool one of the smartest women in the world, thinking she would succede. Now I just have to wait for her to read more and maybe get to WoR. If after that she still doesn't like it, I might me in the market for a new sister 

I like what you say. I have loved Shallan within WoK/WoR, but as I have said, the plunge she took in OB was too much for me. I love the idea of a character putting on mask to please others: I also read a lot of it into Adolin's character (terribly badly explored) which is one reason I loved them so much together.

Sorry about your sister  I didn't find it implausible Shallan would be able to fool Jasnah. We also have to take into consideration she had been tracking her for months when he finally reached her. Plenty of time to be less sheltered and the way she fooled her was plausible given her personality and her character.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I just think Shallan can be a strong character no matter what she chooses to be.

Hm, yes, but this is not just about strength, but also about independence for me.

[DeployParachute]

Lots of great discussion going on in this thread. It's a great read.  I feel that a lot of similar conversations regarding negative reactions to certain OB writing choices are bleeding into many different threads at once. Almost like we should have a dedicated thread for this stuff. I'd suggest the name "Why I Don't Have an Overwhelming Urge to Reread Oathbringer Any Time Soon: A Retrospective"

Edited December 3, 2017 by DeployParachute

[MonsterMetroid]

1 minute ago, DeployParachute said:

I'd suggest the name "Why I Don't Have an Overwhelming Urge to Reread Oathbringer Any Time Soon: A Retrospective"

Hahaha this definitely made me laugh, but I am actually rereading it right now because over all i enjoyed it and man it has a lot of content to digest.

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Lots of great discussion going on in this thread. It's a great read.  I feel that a lot of similar conversations regarding negative reactions to certain OB writing choices are bleeding into many different threads at once. Almost like we should have a dedicated thread for this stuff. I'd suggest the name "Why I Don't Have an Overwhelming Urge to Reread Oathbringer Any Time Soon: A Retrospective"

They are... truth is we all love Brandon and no one wanted not to love this book and yet those of us whom were disappointed, over one aspect of the story or another, seem overwhelm by the overly positive critic the book is receiving elsewhere. I think the issue might be Brandon managed to snatch a very large readership with his first two books, but he wrote a third book which only pleased to one half of it. Arguably the bigger half, but the other smaller half, felt they were ignored as if they weren't supposed to be Brandon's fans to begin with.

[Varenus]

I think that disgust is perhaps too harsh a term, but I do feel some level of frustration with how Shallan's character was handled in OB. In WoR I would have placed her character above Dalinar's to be honest and her story arc in WoR was very well written imo. Now in OB however, I can't quite enjoy her story as much because I felt her character was cheapened by the whole multiple personality thing. And let me be totally clear, I don't mean this to be taken as a statement on mental health problems, just that I don't think it made her character as gripping as it was in WoR. Take the two scenes in OB where Shallan goes undercover to steal food and the one where she sneaks into the revelers. Now compare them with the two scenes in WoR where Shallan finds Taln and the one where she infiltrates Amaram's secret room. The difference is that in WoR the focus is on the act of espionage and the illusions are the means in which the goal is achieved.  In OB I feel that the opposite is true, the focus is on the illusions and the undercover missions are the excuse to use them. Which leads to all the tension of these moments in OB draining away because Shallan's PoV can change on a dime due to her ability to completely change her personality. Like when she changes her personality to mimic the old lady she stole food from. That being said, I still enjoyed parts of Shallan's story in OB(especially the parts with Hoid), but I don't see why the multiple personality thing had to happen. I am interested to how the rest of  her story plays out though.

Also, I wish the whole love triangle thing would have resolved by the end of part 2. I don't care how it ended, but I think it carried on for far, far too long. 

TL;DR: I expected a super spy but got Cusicesh. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Varenus

[kari-no-sugata]

14 minutes ago, Varenus said:

I think that disgust is perhaps too harsh a term, but I do feel some level of frustration with how Shallan's character was handled in OB. In WoR I would have placed her character above Dalinar's to be honest and her story arc in WoR was very well written imo. Now in OB however, I can't quite enjoy her story as much because I felt her character was cheapened by the whole multiple personality thing. And let me be totally clear, I don't mean this to be taken as a statement on mental health problems, just that I don't think it made her character as gripping as it was in WoR. Take the two scenes in OB where Shallan goes undercover to steal food and the one where she sneaks into the revelers. Now compare them with the two scenes in WoR where Shallan finds Taln and the one where she infiltrates Amaram's secret room. The difference is that in WoR the focus is on the act of espionage and the illusions are the means in which the goal is achieved.  In OB I feel that the opposite is true, the focus is on the illusions and the undercover missions are the excuse to use them. Which leads to all the tension of these moments in OB draining away because Shallan's PoV can change on a dime due to her ability to completely change her personality. Like when she changes her personality to mimic the old lady she stole food from. That being said, I still enjoyed parts of Shallan's story in OB(especially the parts with Hoid), but I don't see why the multiple personality thing had to happen. I am interested to how the rest of  her story plays out though.

Also, I wish the whole love triangle thing would have resolved by the end of part 2. I don't care how it ended, but I think it carried on for far, far too long. 

TD;RL: I expected a super spy but got Cusicesh. 

This is starting to drift a bit off-topic but it seems to me that Part 3 was overly designed around Shallan's failure (with the street urchin) and Kaladin's failure. I don't see why they had to spend so many days doing all this preparation. Particularly Shallan - did she really have to use such roundabout methods? Why not just infiltrate more directly? (Well, she almost did with Swiftspren but why even start down this route in the first place?) It's overly complicated. When Shallan does finally sneak in to reach the Oathgate it doesn't feel like an achievement. It feels too much like the real reason for all this is to setup her failure which then leads to Wit stepping in to help. It's a lovely scene but the complete arc feels overly engineered. And conveniently timed to match the Fused attacking and Kaladin bringing in the Wall Guard. It's the old London bus joke - you wait forever then three turn up at once.

Maybe not so much Cusicesh but "Robin Hood, Shallan in trousers"

Edited December 3, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Varenus]

1 minute ago, kari-no-sugata said:

This is starting to drift a bit off-topic but it seems to me that Part 3 was overly designed around Shallan's failure (with the street urchin) and Kaladin's failure. I don't see why they had to spend so many days doing all this preparation. Particularly Shallan - did she really have to use such roundabout methods? Why not just infiltrate more directly? (Well, she almost did with Swiftspren but why even start down this route in the first place?) It's overly complicated. When Shallan does finally sneak in to reach the Oathgate it doesn't feel like an achievement. It feels too much like the real reason for all this is to setup her failure which then leads to Wit stepping in to help. It's a lovely scene but the complete arc feels overly engineered. And conveniently timed to match the Fused attacking and Kaladin bringing in the Wall Guard. It's the old London bus joke - you wait forever then three turn up at once.

I concur. Moreover, Shallan didn't need another failure, unlike Kaladin, she was already in enough trouble from the end of WoR. I also found the whole part with the Oathgate kind of "meh" considering the amount of work that was put into it.

At least we got a good sense of what Kholinar is/was like. 

[Varenus]

1 minute ago, kari-no-sugata said:

This is starting to drift a bit off-topic but it seems to me that Part 3 was overly designed around Shallan's failure (with the street urchin) and Kaladin's failure. I don't see why they had to spend so many days doing all this preparation. Particularly Shallan - did she really have to use such roundabout methods? Why not just infiltrate more directly? (Well, she almost did with Swiftspren but why even start down this route in the first place?) It's overly complicated. When Shallan does finally sneak in to reach the Oathgate it doesn't feel like an achievement. It feels too much like the real reason for all this is to setup her failure which then leads to Wit stepping in to help. It's a lovely scene but the complete arc feels overly engineered. And conveniently timed to match the Fused attacking and Kaladin bringing in the Wall Guard. It's the old London bus joke - you wait forever then three turn up at once.

I concur. Moreover, Shallan didn't need another failure, unlike Kaladin, she was already in enough trouble from the end of WoR. I also found the whole part with the Oathgate kind of "meh" considering the amount of work that was put into it.

At least we got a good sense of what Kholinar is/was like. 

[SomeRandomPeasant]

21 minutes ago, Varenus said:

Moreover, Shallan didn't need another failure, unlike Kaladin, she was already in enough trouble from the end of WoR. I also found the whole part with the Oathgate kind of "meh" considering the amount of work that was put into it.

At least we got a good sense of what Kholinar is/was like. 

I agree, even though I loved the entire Oathbringer journey, the lead up to the Oathgate felt pretty bland.  However, I thought the killing of Shallan's street urchin was much needed step in Shallan's character development and an essential failure. This was a visceral reminder that well meaning Shallan is not as smart and clever as she thought she was. She was also reminded once again that leaning on a personality is not a healthy approach. I am curious why you say Shallan didn't need a failure, but Kaladin did.  In WoR, it was Kaladin who became totally blinded by vengeance and light-eyed racism, culminating in him breaking his oath and killing Syl. 

Shallan saw relatively nothing but success such as unlocking the Oathgate and infiltrating the Ghostbloods.  The only failure i see is that the Ghostbloods eventually discovered who she truely is, and she got some servents killed by the Ghostbloods. Unless you are refrencing that it is Kaladin who often saves the day like fighting the assassin in white, in which again i would agree with you.  I am glad Kaladin couldn't say the words and Dalinar saved their asses.

Edited December 3, 2017 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Starla]

I’ve been up and down with Shallan, and still don’t have all my feelings about her sorted out. A few of the comments in this thread have touched on some things that have been bothering me, so I’ll make an attempt to articulate my thoughts. First, a few things we know about Shallan:

• She is 17 years old (I checked the timeline and she is still 17 at the end of Oathbringer.)
• 13 months ago, she killed her father.
• 7 months ago she arrived in Kharbranth to steal Jasnah’s soulcaster.
• 7 months ago she met her first romantic interest. He turned out to be an assassin who nearly killed her.  
• When she was 11 years old, she killed her mother in self defense after her mother tried to kill her. Since that time she has had no mother figure in her life.
• Her father was angry and abusive, and though he never physically abused Shallan, he would harm other people as a means to control her.
• She grew up isolated on her family's estate, with her brothers being the only kids close to her age. She had no friends her age to develop social skills. The only times she ever left the estate were yearly trips to Middle Fest. 
• Prior to leaving home, the only knowledge she had of the outside world came from books.

Shallan is so young, and will all the problems and trauma she has endured, and the isolation and lack of socialization she experienced as a child, her emotional growth was probably stunted. I would guess that parts of her mind stopped developing on the day she killed her mother, so in some ways she is still that 11 year old girl, the girl she sometimes sees lying on the bed crying, unable to face her life. She has not yet dealt with all of that and had nearly zero emotional support from family, friends, or health professionals during her formative years.

I know a lot has happened to her since she arrived in Kharbranth, but that was only seven months ago. Everything has happened so fast, she has had no time to reflect on any of it, to grow, or to heal. As of the end of Oathbringer, she is still having blackouts and is still using her personas as a way of dissociating from memories and problems she faces in day to day life. To make matters worse, she frequently uses one of her personas to get drunk with her mercenaries (and now her husband), as another way to make her problems go away.

Add to all this, she is a Knight Radiant, expected to take on a monumental role in saving the world. And now she’s marrying a 23 year old Highprince, and probably expected to produce an heir in the near future. All of this for a child with stunted emotional development who has never properly grown up and who has no idea who she is. 

In many Young Adult novels, kids always save the world and are way better and cooler at everything than the adults. But Stormlight Archive is not Young Adult, it is Adult, which tends to portray people of all ages more realistically. I’m struggling to find Shallan realistic at this point. I know all of the radiants are broken, but Shallan's particular character arc disturbs me in ways I don’t fully understand. And not the good kind of disturbed. Perhaps I am overthinking it and it’s not as bad as it seems, but at this point I have a hard time thinking about her without feeling like something is wrong there. Maybe we are supposed to feel this way… she doesn’t know who she is and neither do we. Regardless, it is disconcerting to not know how to feel about a character, nor have no idea where she might go from here. 

[MonsterMetroid]

10 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

However, I thought the killing of Shallan's street urchin was much needed step in Shallan's character development and an essential failure.

This is a big thing for me too. To me this illustrated even if she tried to make multiple personalities, They dont know more that the whole on a subject, They still will have blind spots that someone who has lived a privileged life would have, even if you are pretending to be a dark eyed thief.

[Varenus]

18 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I agree, even though I loved the entire Oathbringer journey, the lead up to the Oathgate felt pretty bland.  However, I thought the killing of Shallan's street urchin was much needed step in Shallan's character development and an essential failure. This was a visceral reminder that well meaning Shallan is not as smart and clever as she thought she was. She was also remained once again that leaning on a personality is not a healthy approach. I curious why you say Shallan didn't need a failure, but Kaladin did.  In WoR, it was Kaladin who became totally blinded by vengeance and lightened racism, culminating in him breaking his oath and killing Syl. 

Shallan saw relatively nothing but success such as unlocking the Oathgate and infiltrating the Ghostbloods.  The only failure i see is that the Ghostbloods eventually discovered who she truely is, and she got some servents killed by the Ghostbloods. Unless you are refrencing that it is Kaladin who often saves the day like fighting the assassin in white, in which again i would agree with you.  I am glad Kaladin couldn't say the words and Dalinar saved their asses.

Let me just say, I liked the book. I agree that Oathbringer was an amazing book, I am just the nit picky type.

I hadn't considered your take on the killing of the street urchin. I like it, but Shallan already has the burden of killing both her parents on her shoulders. I don't think that it was necessary, but hey I also don't think the multiple personalities were necessary from the beginning. 

As for the winning thing, you are correct that I was talking about how Kaladin had saved the day in both WoK and WoR. As for Shallan, The only real victories I see for her are in WoR. Jasnah grudgingly accepts Shallan back after her ruse falls apart in WoK(where she nearly dies after being poisoned by someone she trusted), and then Shallan has to confront her past in WoR. What I am saying is that if you include the horrors of her past, Shallan needs a win more than Kaladin does at the moment. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Varenus

[MonsterMetroid]

4 minutes ago, Varenus said:

As for Shallan, The only real victories I see for her are in WoR

Besides the victories which SomeRandomPeasant mentioned, she has driven off the unmade in the tower, communicated with a second one enough to have it not try to kill them, has pictures that document new undiscovered corrupted spren, as well as the true nature of spren in the cognitive realm. All of this together basically guarantees that she will be one of the most quoted and referenced scholars of this age along with her previous achievements. Then to Top it all off she has two of the most eligible/BA bachelors in Roshar mooning over her. 

I think she is doing just fine.