[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Aleksiel]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Then why is Adolin almost universally liked? SCNR

He isn't universally liked (and let's not hijack the discussion in the direction whether he's simplistic character or not). There are a bunch of people who dislike him including you. Roshone is simplistic character and mostly disliked or ignored by people.

[Guest]

Just now, Aleksiel said:

He isn't universally liked

Which is why I said almost. 

[A Dopey Spren]

Each person will have a different background, culture, upbringing, etc, so particular characters will and won't indicate for them. It's not as black and white as 'simplistic characters don't appeal to people', etc. 

By looking at it as a writer, you can tell which characters are actively forwarding the plot, and how so in particular ways. Every character, their mannerisms, personality, etc, and their interactions with other characters, influence where the stories going. I feel that Sanderson has made every character essential (even if they're easy to dislike) to forwarding the plot. 

I also find I think intriguing to see such diverse opinions in terms of characters liked and disliked, makes you realise the scope of the SA as well as the community!

[PhineasGage]

20 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Shallan not appealing to everyone isn't because she's too complex, simplistic characters don't appeal to people. This sounds rather snobbish, basically saying 'not everyone is smart enough to get her'. 

So I'm sorry if you took this to be my meaning - it wasn't. What I meant is that if you have a complex layered character you will see some aspects you like and aspects you don't. If you dislike more of those aspects you'll end up disliking the character. In a 2D case like Roshone, we all only saw the negative stuff so he is basically universally disliked. With Shallan, because she is complex, each person needs to decide on the basis of multiple pieces of information whether we like her or not. Shallan has a difficult arc and doesn't always behave terribly well. Depending on how much weight you place on different situations will affect how you feel about her. 

I feel the more complex a character is, the greater the chance of there being disagreements about whether you like them or not. 

[Aleksiel]

Just now, PhineasGage said:

So I'm sorry if you took this to be my meaning - it wasn't. What I meant is that if you have a complex layered character you will see some aspects you like and aspects you don't. If you dislike more of those aspects you'll end up disliking the character. In a 2D case like Roshone, we all only saw the negative stuff so he is basically universally disliked. With Shallan, because she is complex, each person needs to decide on the basis of multiple pieces of information whether we like her or not. Shallan has a difficult arc and doesn't always behave terribly well. Depending on how much weight you place on different situations will affect how you feel about her. 

I feel the more complex a character is, the greater the chance of there being disagreements about whether you like them or not. 

I agree with you, I didn't like the previously mentioned wording, because I think it expresses a different idea than the one here. That being said, I also want to acknowledge my wording wasn't proper either. Simplistic characters can be liked when they have little screen time like Lopen for example.

[straits]

I think she's a well written character whose motivations and (sometimes toxic) behaviour is well explained by what she experienced in her childhood. Without her arc the entire SA series would be diminished. 

On 12/2/2017 at 2:09 PM, fail420 said:

I kind of liked her when I started reading the series but the more we progress  through the story, the more I find she's just a badly written character.
(edit: Someone reminded me of the "jokes" she was telling in the first book, Jesus, I guess I never liked her at all)

I feel like a beta nerdy virgin would imagine women are just like her. It disgusts me and that comes in extreme contrast to all the other characters and the rest of the story that I love so much.

I don't want to hint to any spoilers, but when she starts imagining she's another person and drawing that rust on her pad... Eck, the cringe, I barely could finish reading the sentence, it physically hurts me to read these parts.

This visceral feeling you get when you read her arc hints that you do not like her personality, moreso than it suggests that she is a "badly written character". And the language you use here to describe your dislike of Shallan tells me more about your personal politics than it does about the author's writing of the character.

I think you should reassess the way you approach critique of Shallan. There are valid points to make with respect to her character progression and you've hit none of them.

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

I agree with you, I didn't like the previously mentioned wording, because I think it expresses a different idea than the one here. That being said, I also want to acknowledge my wording wasn't proper either. Simplistic characters can be liked when they have little screen time like Lopen for example.

Honestly, it didn't even occur to me that it could be taken that way - so I'm actually glad you gave me the opportunity to clarify my meaning.  

I am not inherently against "simplistic" characters either - they serve an important narrative purpose for one thing. I prefer it when there is a hint at least that there is more to the story. I feel Lopen does this admirably - if nothing else we are always reminded about him losing his arm, and that may or may not be important to the overall story, but it gives us a feeling of personal history for him that makes him more believable. So even if we never see it, we know it is there.

"Bad" characters get the worst of this because it is easy to focus on their negatives because they are thrown in our faces (so to speak). It is easy to forget that Roshone lost his son and heir, for example, and thus hate him for sending Kal and Tien to the army. I know it is still a horrible thing to do, but people can behave erratically when they are grieving. That doesn't make it ok, but it does mean he perhaps needs more compassion than we otherwise give him.

Right I'm going to shh now because I am taking this thread more and more offtopic (sorry)

[kari-no-sugata]

I feel pretty sad that this thread exists at all but it doesn't surprise me as I've seen many posters struggling with Shallan. These are some of my personal thoughts why this can happen:

• Shallan is consistently quite negative about herself - characters who feel that they are justified or doing the right thing are generally appreciated more (whether they're right or wrong) than those who often worry about what they're doing.
• Shallan has taken many dubious actions (stealing from Jasnah, killing her father, killing her mother).
• Shallan is clearly an unreliable narrator. This isn't played for humour either (with a few exceptions).
• Shallan's character does not obvious fit any typical archetype for a protagonist, particularly in a fantasy setting. (ie there's a sense of "what is she even doing here?")
• A number of her actions and abilities are not clearly defined or explained. This can break the suspension of disbelief, particularly if the character isn't liked, leading to claims of a "Mary Sue" character.
• The characters who are more liked in the series are rarely positive about her. I think this is particularly obvious in WoR where Kaladin takes a strongly negative view of her for most of the book. Kaladin is probably the most popular character so his negative endorsement of Shallan doesn't help Shallan's popularity at all.
• Shallan doesn't really get any "wow" scenes (stand up and cheer scenes) or if she does they're overshadowed or undermined by other characters or events. In book 1, her arc ended on a somewhat negative tone, in book 2 it was distinctly negative (her last POV scene with Pattern) plus other things and while book 3 felt like it should be a positive ending for her I don't think it really worked for many readers.

Incidentally, about Shallan's style of humour, Brandon has this to say:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188-general-reddit-2015/#e4908

Quote

This is an interesting topic, and though I saw this early, I wanted to wait to post anything because I prefer to let discussions like this happen without author intervention, at least not immediately.

I do I like talking about topics like this, though. Humor is such a curiously subjective thing. There are people who just don't get Pratchett, whom I find the funniest thing ever. Conversely, I don't generally like stand up comedians, and actively dislike some of the comedies that people on reddit love. There are people who tell me that my Mat scenes in WoT are the funniest they've read in the series; there are others who consider them absolute duds.

Humor is more subjective than what we find heroic, tragic, or even beautiful. It also depends a great deal on audience buy-in and mood. This makes comedy one of the trickiest things to do in a book, because some people are just going to hate what you do. My approach has generally been a kind of shotgun blast--I try to include multiple different kinds of humor, stylized to the individual character. That way, if you don't find the humor itself funny, you at least learn what the character finds funny--and learn something about them.

In Stormlight, my personal favorite is the bridge crew humor, as it is distinctly character driven. Syl's humor is a different flavor, based on innocence mixed with sarcasm. Wit is another style entirely, though I usually only let him really go when he meets someone he dislikes strongly. I have to be careful, as he's one of the few characters I allow to stray into the vulgar, and letting him go too far risks letting such things overshadow the rest of the book.

Shallan's humor is based upon regency "women sit in a circle and trade witty comments" humor, of which Jane Austen was a master. Much of what the OP said in his post is correct--Shallan's fault is that she over-extends. She uses the humor as a coping mechanism, and to her, it doesn't matter if it's actually funny so long as she's stretching toward something more lighthearted than her terrible past. She tries very hard to prove herself. And she fails. Often.

However, her type of "wit" is to exemplify what Vorin lighteyed women consider to be amusing or diverting. And there are people who genuinely find that kind of thing to be a blast--though Shallan isn't exactly the best at it yet. (She's not terrible either, mind you. If you don't smile at some of the things she says, it's likely this isn't your type of humor, which is just fine. Hopefully, there will be other things in the books that make you smile.)

Though, that said, I'd love to read passages from other fantasy novels that people on reddit find to be actually laugh-out-loud funny. I know which ones I personally like, but it would be useful for me to see what you're liking. Feel free to PM them to me or to post them here.

 

[Stairdweller]

On 02/12/2017 at 8:09 AM, fail420 said:

I feel like a beta nerdy virgin would imagine women are just like her.

So.... this is an interesting comment to me, because it's strongly implied in WoR and outright stated in OB that the she has cultivated her behaviour specifically to be "a perfect lighteyed woman" - as imagined by her abusive, regressive father.  (He's exactly the kind of man who would hang a painting up to face the wall, as she told Kabsal.

 

Quote

My biggest problem in the first two books was her lame humor and how completely out of touch she was with the lower classes (a rich woman taking a poor soldiers boots...really!). 

Um... Kaladin is a captain at this point.  Riding a horse.  Which in our terms is like seeing someone driving a ferrari. Kaladin's position would normally be held by a 4th dahn lighteyes.  He's hardly poor at this point.

 

I like Shallan's humour like I like tonic water.  It makes me cringe, but in a good way.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Stairdweller said:

Um... Kaladin is a captain at this point.  Riding a horse.  Which in our terms is like seeing someone driving a ferrari. Kaladin's position would normally be held by a 4th dahn lighteyes.  He's hardly poor at this point.

Not to mention... He owns land. Yeah, Kal has come a long way. And even back then, he was in a privileged position for a darkeyes.

3 minutes ago, Stairdweller said:

I like Shallan's humour like I like tonic water.  It makes me cringe, but in a good way.

That is a fitting analogy. raises glass of tonic water to you

Edited December 3, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

11 minutes ago, Stairdweller said:

Um... Kaladin is a captain at this point.  Riding a horse.  Which in our terms is like seeing someone driving a ferrari. Kaladin's position would normally be held by a 4th dahn lighteyes.  He's hardly poor at this point.

 

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Not to mention... He owns land. Yeah, Kal has come a long way. And even back then, he was in a privileged position for a darkeyes.

Not to derail the rabidly-hating-Shallan thread, but none of these facts redeem the behaviour of a lighteyes towards a darkeyes, in any situation. "Look at how successful you've gotten under our oppressive system! Aren't you grateful?!"

No.

[Guest]

Just now, straits said:

Not to derail the rabidly-hating-Shallan thread, but none of these facts redeem the behaviour of a lighteyes towards a darkeyes, in any situation. "Look at how successful you've gotten under our oppressive system! Aren't you grateful?!"

Of course they don't, but then again it is wrong to call Kaladin poor or unprivileged at this point. Shallan was just acting how she learned to act and was pressured by Tyn.

[straits]

Just now, SLNC said:

Of course they don't, but then again it is wrong to call Kaladin poor or unprivileged at this point. Shallan was just acting how she learned to act and was pressured by Tyn.

It is wrong to call him poor. It is not wrong to call him unprivileged. His success is in spite of the system of privilege present in Alethkar, not because of it, so his "privilege" is not the privilege of a lighteyes.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, straits said:

His success is in spite of the system of privilege present in Alethkar, not because of it, so his "privilege" is not the privilege of a lighteyes.

It is earned privilege, but still privilege in comparison to the classes below him. That is the nature of caste systems.

I think it is wrong to put a too idealistic view on the boots scene, when both Shallan and Kaladin later make big progress regarding their prejudices against each other. At the point of the scene, they just weren't as developed as characters.

Edited December 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Stairdweller]

I was only commenting on poorness.  I think there's a difference between bamboozling a visibly affluent man's boots away from him and stealing a poor man's only footwear. 

 

I'm not excusing Shallan's behaviour (it was crappy) but... Kaladin just went to supply and asked for new boots.  It was an inconvenience at worst.  And Shallan actually needed those boots.

 

Side question: anyone know how much it costs to buy your family a nahn increase?  And can lighteyes buy a dahn increase or is it all tied into like... land ownership and authority from the highprince?

Edited December 3, 2017 by Stairdweller

[maxal]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Then why is Adolin almost universally liked? SCNR

Oh give it up. People liked Adolin, after WoR, because they felt he had potential to grow into a really good character: it didn't happen and it won't happen. The only reason people are still talking about him is because of Maya, but fear not, you will not get pestered with Adolin related posts for the next four years. There is nothing left to discuss for Adolin now Brandon decided he wouldn't give him depth nor layers nor a personality. 

For some reason, some people liked the bland Adolin we were given in OB and there is nothing I can do about that. You can happily gloat now four years worth of speculations and anticipations can go down the sewer for many of us with no hope of turning back the steam. 

On the matter of Shallan, I am ill-at-ease with this sentence:

On 12/2/2017 at 8:09 AM, fail420 said:

I feel like a beta nerdy virgin would imagine women are just like her. It disgusts me and that comes in extreme contrast to all the other characters and the rest of the story that I love so much.

This is kind of condescending: stating Shallan exists because she ought to be the "dream woman for a bunch of beta nerdy victim" is rather insulting for a great many people. Even worst is stating how it disgusts you. What is it you find disgusting? The existence of Shallan (let me guess because she isn't Jasnah?) or the fact there are readers whom have actually enjoyed her character? What is so revolting about her existence? Because she cracks jokes you do not appreciate? Because she has a smiling happy go lucky personality? Because she is not a male?

I didn't enjoy Shallan's personality issue. I did not enjoy Brandon chose to push her character down this road: I felt this was too much into the same character. Too many issues, too crippling issues and, in the end, I didn't find it all that interesting to read. All in all, while I do love Shallan, I hate what Brandon decide to do with her in OB. I don't like the whole OSDD story arc and I want nothing more than this to be gone and to never hear about it ever again even if it is unrealistic. I don't like Veil nor Radiant and the whole personality shifting is just too odd to me even if it may be, once again, realistic. I loved Shallan in WoR, I love her less after OB because the personality thing, I didn't like reading and I know I will still be reading it in book 4.

I don't however find her character is disgusting, revolting nor created as some sort of male dream fantasy. In fact, I would argue it is getting tiresome, each time a fantasy author creates a female character, she has to be associated with some twisted male reader's fantasy. Female characters are allowed to exist within all of their flavors without being labelled negatively on the pretense they are women. Isn't where it is a problem? She's a woman? When's the last time I have read a post on readers trashing a male character? When has someone written a post to state how disgusting Kaladin was because he was the perfect representation of the uber-modern man harboring an unkempt ragged look with long dirty locks and an unshaven face which so many women fantasized about? Never. Because all people understand characters have the right to exist outside our modern day cliches. This is true for female characters as well.  

As such, you have the right not to enjoy her character. You do not have the right to use her as a mean to be pejorative towards a given percentage of the population.

Edited December 3, 2017 by maxal

[Dreamstorm]

17 minutes ago, maxal said:

This is kind of condescending: stating Shallan exists because she ought to be the "dream woman for a bunch of beta nerdy victim" is rather insulting for a great many people. Even worst is stating how it disgusts you. What is it you find disgusting? The existence of Shallan (let me guess because she isn't Jasnah?) or the fact there are readers whom have actually enjoyed her character? What is so revolting about her existence? Because she cracks jokes you do not appreciate? Because she has a smiling happy go lucky personality? Because she is not a male?

.....

I don't however find her character is disgusting, revolting nor created as some sort of male dream fantasy. In fact, I would argue it is getting tiresome, each time a fantasy author creates a female character, she has to be associated with some twisted male reader's fantasy. Female characters are allowed to exist within all of their flavors without being labelled negatively on the pretense they are women. Isn't where it is a problem? She's a woman? When's the last time I have read a post on readers trashing a male character? When has someone written a post to state how disgusting Kaladin was because he was the perfect representation of the uber-modern man harboring an unkempt ragged look with long dirty locks and an unshaven face which so many women fantasized about? Never. Because all people understand characters have the right to exist outside our modern day cliches. This is true for female characters as well.  

As such, you have the right not to enjoy her character. You do not have the right to use her as a mean to be pejorative towards a given percentage of the population.

Thank you for this.  When people say they don't like Shallan, part of me always wants to yell "that's because she's female!!!", but I know it's not that simple.  And I know I do this too (in a different way.)  I want Shallan to embody the independent, self-actualized woman with agency because that's how I want to see women portrayed in fiction.  But that's not realistic.  I'm struggling with this (especially the fact the Shallan at the end of OB finds happiness by a man choosing the real her), because I know that if the roles were reversed (a man found his happiness because a woman saw the real him), I would eyeroll at that, but I wouldn't be so upset at the character and offended by the writer's choices.  Shallan doesn't live up to my expectations, not for Shallan, not for a realistic character of her background, but for what I personally want to see from a female character.  (On the flip side, all of these pesky feelings about Shallan's character are making be dig into it more, which is making me more invested, which is actually making me like the character more even if I don't like Shallan's choices as a character.  So perhaps it all works out )

Edited December 3, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, maxal said:

For some reason, some people liked the bland Adolin we were given in OB and there is nothing I can do about that. You can happily gloat now four years worth of speculations and anticipations can go down the sewer for many of us with no hope of turning back the steam. 

Nor is it your responsibility. As far as I am concerned, I'm on the same page as you. I'd have liked to see Adolin evolve into a character with more facets and a real personality, but I also don't get how someone could have found Adolin in OB as very interesting.

Also,

19 minutes ago, maxal said:

This is kind of condescending: stating Shallan exists because she ought to be the "dream woman for a bunch of beta nerdy victim" is rather insulting for a great many people. Even worst is stating how it disgusts you. What is it you find disgusting? The existence of Shallan (let me guess because she isn't Jasnah?) or the fact there are readers whom have actually enjoyed her character? What is so revolting about her existence? Because she cracks jokes you do not appreciate? Because she has a smiling happy go lucky personality? Because she is not a male?

[...]

I don't however find her character is disgusting, revolting nor created as some sort of male dream fantasy. In fact, I would argue it is getting tiresome, each time a fantasy author creates a female character, she has to be associated with some twisted male reader's fantasy. Female characters are allowed to exist within all of their flavors without being labelled negatively on the pretense they are women. Isn't where it is a problem? She's a woman? When's the last time I have read a post on readers trashing a male character? When has someone written a post to state how disgusting Kaladin was because he was the perfect representation of the uber-modern man harboring an unkempt ragged look with long dirty locks and an unshaven face which so many women fantasized about? Never. Because all people understand characters have the right to exist outside our modern day cliches. This is true for female characters as well.  

As such, you have the right not to enjoy her character. You do not have the right to use her as a mean to be pejorative towards a given percentage of the population.

Fully agreed and better written than I could ever have. Thanks.

[Ammanas]

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

 I want Shallan to embody the independent, self-actualized woman with agency because that's how I want to see women portrayed in fiction.  But that's not realistic.  I'm struggling with this (especially the fact the Shallan at the end of OB finds happiness by a man choosing the real her)

I have to disagree with people that think that a self actualized woman is a show of strength. I think Navani is the woman that shows the most strength in the series. She could also be the strongest character period. She was the one that had to keep the kingdom together immediately following Gavilars death, that raised children without her spouse, that had to face everyday knowing that her husband was murdered and will never see him again, that kept the alliance together when Dalinar was drinking, that had to deal with years of being cast aside (before she reached the shattered plains). I think a real show of strength is keeping a positive outlook despite your trials, raising a family without your spouse, and sacrificing for others.

I think "self actualized" women are mostly selfish and furthering there own careers and ambitions.

I realize, just by your response, that we are completely different people with different values and beliefs and will probably disagree on this. That's fine, I have no problem agreeing to disagree, but just thought I would give a counter opinion.

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Nor is it your responsibility. As far as I am concerned, I'm on the same page as you. I'd have liked to see Adolin evolve into a character with more facets and a real personality, but I also don't get how someone could have found Adolin in OB as very interesting.

Well... I can't deny it has been insinuated the entire Adolin focus within SA has been my fault either directly or indirectly. I just wanted people, not necessarily you specifically, to be reminded I have absolutely no say into what gets into the book and I might have loved to discuss Adolin's character for the past four years, but all can appreciate just how little agency my little person actually had.

Everyone whom is closed to Brandon loved Adolin in OB: I am one of the only ones to openly criticize how the author has made the character one-dimensional. I still love Adolin, but I fear he will remain a "good idea on paper which never got explored decently". It bugs me immensely how people actually having agency with the author are not recognizing this is an issue, it bugs me they are brushing away so easily my argumentation as to why Adolin was so unsatisfying despite the wonderful Maya arc.

I think those who found Adolin interesting in OB just liked the fact his character has no drama, no angst, no personality and was just around to do things when no one else seemed to be able to do them. My problem with it is it totally clashed with so many previous developments we had for Adolin it made his character appear cartoonist more than realistic. I have literally no means to make my thoughts being known to Brandon nor do I think he'd actually listen to the critic if I were to voice it out. Everyone with a say on the matter loved the book.

So yeah, I guess we finally have something in common then. Maybe we can finally bury the war hatchet.

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Fully agreed and better written than I could ever have. Thanks.

Thanks 

14 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Thank you for this.  When people say they don't like Shallan, part of me always wants to yell "that's because she's female!!!", but I know it's not that simple.  And I know I do this too (in a different way.)  I want Shallan to embody the independent, self-actualized woman with agency because that's how I want to see women portrayed in fiction.  But that's not realistic.  I'm struggling with this (especially the fact the Shallan at the end of OB finds happiness by a man choosing the real her), because I know that if the roles were reversed (a man found his happiness because a woman saw the real him), I would eyeroll at that, but I wouldn't be so upset at the character and offended by the writer's choices.  Shallan doesn't live up to my expectations, not for Shallan, not for a realistic character of her background, but for what I personally want to see from a female character.  (On the flip side, all of these pesky feelings about Shallan's character are making be dig into it more, which is making me more invested, which is actually making me like the character more even if I don't like Shallan's choices as a character.  So perhaps it all works out )

I could write an essay as to why I think readers are so often trashing Shallan, but praising Jasnah. I love Shallan because she isn't the typical fantasy female character: yes she chose to marry a man she loved, she chose this over her independence and this makes me love her even more. Why? Because it is exactly the opposite of what typical female fantasy characters are usually doing as if, to write a strong female character, an author had to make her "single", independent", "never making a decision based on something as futile as love".

Women can be all that they want. Women can be strong no matter the choices they make. The idea only characters such as Jasnah are to be considered worthy female characters is more bothersome to me. A woman can be strong, independent, keep her agency while having chosen to marry a man and have children. The idea women's choice is so limited is really baffling and, as such, I loved Brandon introducing Shallan.

I didn't like the personality issue he gave her, but this is another topic entirely.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, maxal said:

I love Shallan because she isn't the typical fantasy female character: yes she chose to marry a man she loved, she chose this over her independence and this makes me love her even more. Why? Because it is exactly the opposite of what typical female fantasy characters are usually doing as if, to write a strong female character, an author had to make her "single", independent", "never making a decision based on something as futile as love".

Hm, I'll have to disagree here, but this might be because we have a different view on how and why she made the choice to marry Adolin. For me, it felt like she did it more out of necessity, because Adolin recognized her self-perceived true self, then out of love. I never felt like I've read love between Adolin and Shallan (but I also never read that between Kaladin and Shallan, not that they had much possibility to explore that angle, for that matter), but rather passion and infatuation. The problem I have with Shallan's choice was the circumstance and her mental distress in which the choice was made. I always felt like, that she was trying very hard to convince herself, that Adolin is the right one for her, which is not what I would call a conscious choice made out of love. I think, that Shallan shouldn't have chosen at all yet, but I also have a different view on Shallan's OSDD, so that might stem from that.

But I'll agree to disagree in advance, to keep in the spirit of burying the hatchet

46 minutes ago, maxal said:

Women can be all that they want. Women can be strong no matter the choices they make. The idea only characters such as Jasnah are to be considered worthy female characters is more bothersome to me. A woman can be strong, independent, keep her agency while having chosen to marry a man and have children. The idea women's choice is so limited is really baffling and, as such, I loved Brandon introducing Shallan.

I do agree with that general sentiment, but I feel like, that this rather describes Navani. But Navani wasn't a Knight Radiant, when she married Gavilar... I don't think Shallan is ready to found a family. Nor do I think, that she has the time or headspace to fully commit herself to that, unlike Navani had.

Edited December 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Oberyn]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

This is kind of condescending: stating Shallan exists because she ought to be the "dream woman for a bunch of beta nerdy victim" is rather insulting for a great many people. Even worst is stating how it disgusts you. What is it you find disgusting? The existence of Shallan (let me guess because she isn't Jasnah?) or the fact there are readers whom have actually enjoyed her character? What is so revolting about her existence? Because she cracks jokes you do not appreciate? Because she has a smiling happy go lucky personality? Because she is not a male?

I didn't enjoy Shallan's personality issue. I did not enjoy Brandon chose to push her character down this road: I felt this was too much into the same character. Too many issues, too crippling issues and, in the end, I didn't find it all that interesting to read. All in all, while I do love Shallan, I hate what Brandon decide to do with her in OB. I don't like the whole OSDD story arc and I want nothing more than this to be gone and to never hear about it ever again even if it is unrealistic. I don't like Veil nor Radiant and the whole personality shifting is just too odd to me even if it may be, once again, realistic. I loved Shallan in WoR, I love her less after OB because the personality thing, I didn't like reading and I know I will still be reading it in book 4.

I don't however find her character is disgusting, revolting nor created as some sort of male dream fantasy. In fact, I would argue it is getting tiresome, each time a fantasy author creates a female character, she has to be associated with some twisted male reader's fantasy. Female characters are allowed to exist within all of their flavors without being labelled negatively on the pretense they are women. Isn't where it is a problem? She's a woman? When's the last time I have read a post on readers trashing a male character? When has someone written a post to state how disgusting Kaladin was because he was the perfect representation of the uber-modern man harboring an unkempt ragged look with long dirty locks and an unshaven face which so many women fantasized about? Never. Because all people understand characters have the right to exist outside our modern day cliches. This is true for female characters as well.  

As such, you have the right not to enjoy her character. You do not have the right to use her as a mean to be pejorative towards a given percentage of the population.

It is somewhat offtopic but I just wanted to say that your post is part of the reason this community is pretty amazing to post or lurk. You quoted a post that was just being mean, trashing Shallan with not many arguments and with all the patience in the world you pointed everything wrong with that without being mean yourself.

[Vaspin]

 

I know Shallan is a viewpoint character, she is going to be subject to much more scrutiny and criticism than other characters. That being said, all of the criticism I'm reading is juvenile and short-sighted. We're all allowed to dislike a character or the author's direction of a character. It's sad, however, that this is only book three and this thread exists because someone felt loathing and disgust and others had others levels of dislike. Shallan has possibly 7 more books in this series, and maybe other books, to show character growth, to overcome all of her flaws and disabilities. It's in the Words Journey before Destination. We can either be praising her incredible turn around as a character years from now or spewing more vitriol, but can we at least allow, for the moment, that nothing is certain? We don't know the person she'll be in the future, let's not condemn her now. Not everyone is doing this but if you aren't 100% certain your words can't be misconstrued as such then they are likely to be taken that way

 

9 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

I have to disagree with people that think that a self actualized woman is a show of strength. I think Navani is the woman that shows the most strength in the series. She could also be the strongest character period. She was the one that had to keep the kingdom together immediately following Gavilars death, that raised children without her spouse, that had to face everyday knowing that her husband was murdered and will never see him again, that kept the alliance together when Dalinar was drinking, that had to deal with years of being cast aside (before she reached the shattered plains). I think a real show of strength is keeping a positive outlook despite your trials, raising a family without your spouse, and sacrificing for others.

I think "self actualized" women are mostly selfish and furthering there own careers and ambitions.

I realize, just by your response, that we are completely different people with different values and beliefs and will probably disagree on this. That's fine, I have no problem agreeing to disagree, but just thought I would give a counter opinion.

Shallan is not the ideal woman. She is a woman, a person. Her problems are not indicative of a problems for her gender. She's also not the only example of Sanderson's ability to write female characters. Navani is probably one of his best creations of female characters, I'll be glad for the day we get her PoV. There's more than one way to present a woman's perspective and we need to remember that.

[Dreamstorm]

43 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

I have to disagree with people that think that a self actualized woman is a show of strength. I think Navani is the woman that shows the most strength in the series. She could also be the strongest character period. She was the one that had to keep the kingdom together immediately following Gavilars death, that raised children without her spouse, that had to face everyday knowing that her husband was murdered and will never see him again, that kept the alliance together when Dalinar was drinking, that had to deal with years of being cast aside (before she reached the shattered plains). I think a real show of strength is keeping a positive outlook despite your trials, raising a family without your spouse, and sacrificing for others.

I think "self actualized" women are mostly selfish and furthering there own careers and ambitions.

I realize, just by your response, that we are completely different people with different values and beliefs and will probably disagree on this. That's fine, I have no problem agreeing to disagree, but just thought I would give a counter opinion.

Yeah, we have vastly different viewpoints, and I bolded where I see the crux of our divergence. I think your opinion aligns with generally what is expected of women in modern, Western society, which is part of the reason why I like to see the polar opposite reflected in fiction, if only to balance out what we see in real life. (I fully realize this is just my personal opinion btw.) There is a whole body of sociology works examining the fairly pervasive criticisms of women who choose to prioritize their career and self over family and spouse. It’s very hard to “have it all” and men aren’t expected to “have it all”; they are typically allowed to focus on careers and ambitions without facing such criticism. My question to you would you still call a man selfish for seeking to further his career and ambitions or is this only an expectation of women? 

38 minutes ago, maxal said:

I could write an essay as to why I think readers are so often trashing Shallan, but praising Jasnah. I love Shallan because she isn't the typical fantasy female character: yes she chose to marry a man she loved, she chose this over her independence and this makes me love her even more. Why? Because it is exactly the opposite of what typical female fantasy characters are usually doing as if, to write a strong female character, an author had to make her "single", independent", "never making a decision based on something as futile as love".

Women can be all that they want. Women can be strong no matter the choices they make. The idea only characters such as Jasnah are to be considered worthy female characters is more bothersome to me. A woman can be strong, independent, keep her agency while having chosen to marry a man and have children. The idea women's choice is so limited is really baffling and, as such, I loved Brandon introducing Shallan.

I totally see where you’re coming from, and I agree that a woman making choices like Shallan did at the end of OB is very realistic; it’s what women do and have done time and time again throughout history. I like to see what I bolded, but I can also see your perspective that it’s overdone; we just disagree about that because I think it’s necessary to overdo to balance out what happens in actual society. Btw, I think romance and love can fit into a strong female character arc and with a strong female IRL, but I’m not a fan of women (characters or IRL) making choices that are dependent on the views of men as I dislike the lack of agency. 

[Ammanas]

11 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

My question to you would you still call a man selfish for seeking to further his career and ambitions or is this only an expectation of women? 

 

Yes, I would call that man selfish (if he could already support his family and takes a advancement to further his career, his ego, and that takes away from his job of interacting with his kids and being father.