[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

So you have problems with Kaladin too for being the world’s best spear fighter? Or Adolin for being the best duelist in Alethkar? Or Jasnah for being Jasnah?

Kaladin and Adolin are far from perfect, and they have to try.

Kaladin wasn't strong enough to beat Amaram on his own, Adolin is severely undermatched in this new world, and Jashna was too slow to stop the Desolation.

[+Doomstick]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin and Adolin are far from perfect, and they have to try.

Kaladin wasn't strong enough to beat Amaram on his own, Adolin is severely undermatched in this new world, and Jashna was too slow to stop the Desolation.

so you are discounting the years of practice Shallan had. 

Then, you're saying that kaladin isn't perfect because he couldn't beat an eldrich beast that could use all ten surges with skill, even though he has defeated a Shardbearer without his powers, then hed killed Szeth, when three shardbearers at once along with 6 (i think) soldiers with Halfshards couldn't even hit Szeth. sounds kinda perfect to me.

yes, Adolin is outmatched, but that is because his skillset (which he is near perfect in) is not that useful in this new world.

wow! Jasnah, the only person to predict the desolation couldn't convince people todo something about their parshmen? that reminds me of thousands of scientists failing to convince many people that climate change is real! and Jasnah is ONE PERSON! just because she can't do an impossible task doesn't mean that she isn't one of, if not the smartest person on Roshar (barring Mr. T on his best days)

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

so you are discounting the years of practice Shallan had. 

still was near perfect, the whole time.

14 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

Then, you're saying that kaladin isn't perfect because he couldn't beat an eldrich beast that could use all ten surges with skill, even though he has defeated a Shardbearer without his powers, then hed killed Szeth, when three shardbearers at once along with 6 (i think) soldiers with Halfshards couldn't even hit Szeth. sounds kinda perfect to me.

Shallan can use art to do hyper advanced cartography, that professionals couldn't do in six years! Kaladin barely beat the shardbears and Szeth was basically insane at that point and let himself be beat.

15 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

yes, Adolin is outmatched, but that is because his skillset (which he is near perfect in) is not that useful in this new world.

Yes, fighting is not useful.

15 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

wow! Jasnah, the only person to predict the desolation couldn't convince people todo something about their parshmen? that reminds me of thousands of scientists failing to convince many people that climate change is real! and Jasnah is ONE PERSON! just because she can't do an impossible task doesn't mean that she isn't one of, if not the smartest person on Roshar (barring Mr. T on his best days)

Taravangian, Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor, Renarin, Dalinar etc. etc.

[+Doomstick]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

still was near perfect, the whole time.

Shallan can use art to do hyper advanced cartography, that professionals couldn't do in six years! Kaladin barely beat the shardbears and Szeth was basically insane at that point and let himself be beat.

Yes, fighting is not useful.

Taravangian, Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor, Renarin, Dalinar etc. etc.

by fourteen she was better than her mother, and that is the first time we see anyone remarking on her skill.

she could do advanced cartography, but that was with, once again, years of practice along with magical drawing skill

Kaladin almost died when he did something that less than five other people have done? how unexpected! and Szeth was insane, but he certainly didn't let Kaladin win, Szeth saw the Oathgate work, then went off to Urithiru to kill Dalinar, if he had given up, he wouldn't have done that.

Taravangian kept his intellect secret, and he was,on average, average. The Ghostbloods were antagonistic to her, the Sons of Honor wanted the Desolation, Renarin kept his future sight secret, Dalinar had no idea what was coming until after Jasnah "died," nobody else believed her, stopping the Desolation from coming was impossible, as Taln had already fled from Braize. Do you expect Jasnah to be able to singlehandedly stop Odium? No!

Also, Shallan still makes mistakes from time to time, shown when she first draws Veil, she makes the nose kinda fuzzy 

 

[revelryintheart]

To clarify, I was annoyed that she was subconsciously able to draw so well. When I absentmindedly doodle, it's just circles or lines or whatever, no actual drawings. 

3 hours ago, Doomstick said:

Also, Shallan still makes mistakes from time to time, shown when she first draws Veil, she makes the nose kinda fuzzy 

I don't think that had to do with her artistic skill, just the fact that it was one of her first times lightweaving something so complex.

[+Doomstick]

Just now, revelryintheart said:

To clarify, I was annoyed that she was subconsciously able to draw so well. When I absentmindedly doodle, it's just circles or lines or whatever, no actual drawings. 

I don't think that had to do with her artistic skill, just the fact that it was one of her first times lightweaving something so complex.

she lightweaved a copy of her drawing, therefore it must have been a drawing mistake

[revelryintheart]

5 hours ago, Doomstick said:

she lightweaved a copy of her drawing, therefore it must have been a drawing mistake

Are we absolutely sure that it was a mistake in the drawing or just a mistake in the Lightweaving because she was new to it? Because, as you've pointed out, she's been drawing since she was young and practically perfect at it.

[Jaywalk]

*raises hand* 

I really like Shallan as a character. I find her pretty relatable.

[Yvainnie]

Shallan was not one of my favourites but I really really hate Lift. I just can't stand her. I don't know but it feels kinda similar to when everybody liked Arya in GoT and I never like her either. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Yvainnie

[Aspiring Writer]

On 12/2/2017 at 5:09 AM, fail420 said:

I just had to sign up to the forums to get this out.

I just absolutely loath Shallan, every time I see her name in the book I just want to skip the whole chapter.

I kind of liked her when I started reading the series but the more we progress  through the story, the more I find she's just a badly written character.
(edit: Someone reminded me of the "jokes" she was telling in the first book, Jesus, I guess I never liked her at all)

I feel like a beta nerdy virgin would imagine women are just like her. It disgusts me and that comes in extreme contrast to all the other characters and the rest of the story that I love so much.

I don't want to hint to any spoilers, but when she starts imagining she's another person and drawing that rust on her pad... Eck, the cringe, I barely could finish reading the sentence, it physically hurts me to read these parts.

Anyone else feeling like that?

No, I don't. I loved Shallan in the first book, to the point I skipped chapters just to read her parts. I don't remember her humor from that book, I'll have to reread it, but I never disliked it, and she's seemed a bit funny in Oathbringer, which I remember a lot more than WoK, and her naive fit storywise, and there are naive people in the world. Maybe she's hard to like for some people, but she's a solid character.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

Although I personally like Shallan as a character, I get where people are coming from when they say they don't like her.  However, I think there a plenty of reasons why she is kind of cool as a character.

A lot of people don't like how Shallan seems to be overly perfect because she never fails at anything.  Her flaws aren’t really dwelled upon, which makes her seem like a weaker character.  After all, flaws are a good thing in a character not a bad.  But I would argue that her flaws are there, just not overtly made clear as they are with, say, Kaladin.  For example:

• Whereas Kaladin dwells on the past so much that it molds his every action, Shallan is completely in denial about most of her past.  She refuses to confront it, so she doesn’t learn from her mistakes.  So a lot of her arc is about fully confronting her past and becoming self-aware enough to become a Lightweaver.  This makes it seem like she is deteriorating as a character instead of growing.  But I would argue that she was never very stable to begin with and her so-called de-evolution is the result of facing her past.  It may seem like she is perfect and Shallan certainly likes to put up that front.  But in reality, she is an utter mess who is only now starting to become self-aware. 
• Just like Kaladin has a somewhat racist view of light eyes, Shallan has a somewhat warped view of dark eyes.  Shallan may not be overtly cruel to a darkeyed person, but she repeatadly looks down on them.  She repeatedly thinks that light eyes are simply better at ruling and believes that it benefits everyone if those with eye color step in to help others (ahem White Man's Burden).  Alot of the time, she kind of assumes that she will get her way by to virtue of being lightened.  I'll be honest, when Shallan took the boots off some random dark-eyed captain simply because she knew she could get away with it, I was enraged.  But this attitude is a flaw that Shallan can work to overcome, just like how Kaladin can overcome his hatred of lighteyes.

I list these flaws to show that the depths of Shallan's character and to show that even though she seems overly perfect, this is more or less an act that she puts on.  Shallan has been written as the inverse of Kaladin and the opposite trajectories of their character arcs showcase different paths towards personal growth.  It would be annoying if a main character is repeatedly shown to be perfect and never fail.  But Shallan is flawed and that makes her more interesting I think. 

 

[Prince of Ravens]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:09 PM, fail420 said:

I feel like a beta nerdy virgin would imagine women are just like her. It disgusts me and that comes in extreme contrast to all the other characters and the rest of the story that I love so much.

I have a problem with the 'I don't see the world this way so it means it's badly written', or 'I never met a person like this so it's badly written. And especially with using 'beta' as a serious term. I just cringed hard reading it. And women are not hive-mind, there is no way 'women are like', every person is their own world.  I think your dislike has more to do with the way you see the world than with how character is written.

[Frustration]

58 minutes ago, Prince of Ravens said:

I have a problem with the 'I don't see the world this way so it means it's badly written', or 'I never met a person like this so it's badly written. And especially with using 'beta' as a serious term. I just cringed hard reading it. And women are not hive-mind, there is no way 'women are like', every person is their own world.  I think your dislike has more to do with the way you see the world than with how character is written.

You could use that logic to say that no character is poorly written.

Shallans personallity is literally whatever works for the scene and that's it.

She says she doesn't like confrontation in book one and that seems to be the case, She hid from Jasnah, and froze from the theives in the alley

Yet the next book she becomes James Bond with an adtitude, she throws verbal insults at everyone, sneaks into high security orginizations and outmanuvers people who manipulate nations.

Then book three comes along, and she's useless!

And even worse she is inconsistanct even in the same book, In Oathbringer she gets outplayed by an assitant spy after doing the same thing to a full Ghostblood? Are you kidding me? and then she is in one scene subverting the entire nobility and the next she falls apart.

There is a dissonance there and it doesn't work well, it could be played like a spy with a soft side but it's played like a pappered noble with a secret side, and for those of us here that just doesn't work, especially the way it's played out.

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

She says she doesn't like confrontation in book one and that seems to be the case, She hid from Jasnah, and froze from the theives in the alley

Yet the next book she becomes James Bond with an adtitude, she throws verbal insults at everyone, sneaks into high security orginizations and outmanuvers people who manipulate nations.

That is because she grows. At the end of WoK, Shallan confronts Jasnah in pretty much the most stressful circumstances possible. Then at the beginning of WoR, she grows more through her talks with Jasnah, and then Tyn brings out her quippy side and trains her in basic espionage.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then book three comes along, and she's useless!

And even worse she is inconsistanct even in the same book, In Oathbringer she gets outplayed by an assitant spy after doing the same thing to a full Ghostblood? Are you kidding me? and then she is in one scene subverting the entire nobility and the next she falls apart.

I might be wrong, but I don't believe Shallan ever outplayed any ghostbloods through experience, she just "brute-forced" her way with lightweaving, when the ghostbloods didn't even know she had lightweaving. She didn't need experience to spy on them because of her magic powers, but magic powers don't replace experience.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That is because she grows. At the end of WoK, Shallan confronts Jasnah in pretty much the most stressful circumstances possible. Then at the beginning of WoR, she grows more through her talks with Jasnah, and then Tyn brings out her quippy side and trains her in basic espionage.

There was no progression, she just stopped caring, instantly.

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I might be wrong, but I don't believe Shallan ever outplayed any ghostbloods through experience, she just "brute-forced" her way with lightweaving, when the ghostbloods didn't even know she had lightweaving. She didn't need experience to spy on them because of her magic powers, but magic powers don't replace experience.

She wondered about being followed, escaped being incinerated in the palanaquine. Basic training does not come with on point insticnts.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Frustration

[NameIess]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There was no progression, she just stopped caring, instantly.

Um, I just told you about the progression. She confronted Jasnah to become her ward, and then later confronted Jasnah about being a Radiant, the latter being under a ton of pressure. The best way to get over your fears is to confront them. If Shallan can confront Jasnah after betraying her by stealing what she assumed to be the most valuable object Jasnah owned. Why would she worry about confronting other people?

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

She wondered about being followed, escaped being incinerated in the palanaquine. Basic training does not come with on point insticnts.

Basic training involves teaching people to be paranoid.

[Chanarach]

I think where I'm at with Shallan is just hoping she does have 50 chapters (hyperbole) in RoW. I'd liked her originally and I'd like to like her again, but I don't see a path there, yet.  I'm big on personal responsibility and fidelity, and I'm not seeing that. She seems to be playing for team Shallan, which is fine. Self interest is great, but  line is crossed when you are willing to take resources or use anyone for what you can get out of them.  She had had trauma and is not well, that's a fact, but I'm not convinced she's not using it as a crutch. In addition her overweening arrogance is extremely off-putting. Though, it was pretty hilarious when she was like, "Jasnah, baby, im like a badass master radiant who's saving the world. Who are you?" And Jasnah is like. Ok, chick, where's you armor? 

[Ramona Tehradin]

On 11/6/2020 at 1:27 AM, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Although I personally like Shallan as a character, I get where people are coming from when they say they don't like her.  However, I think there a plenty of reasons why she is kind of cool as a character.

A lot of people don't like how Shallan seems to be overly perfect because she never fails at anything.  Her flaws aren’t really dwelled upon, which makes her seem like a weaker character.  After all, flaws are a good thing in a character not a bad.  But I would argue that her flaws are there, just not overtly made clear as they are with, say, Kaladin.  For example:

• Whereas Kaladin dwells on the past so much that it molds his every action, Shallan is completely in denial about most of her past.  She refuses to confront it, so she doesn’t learn from her mistakes.  So a lot of her arc is about fully confronting her past and becoming self-aware enough to become a Lightweaver.  This makes it seem like she is deteriorating as a character instead of growing.  But I would argue that she was never very stable to begin with and her so-called de-evolution is the result of facing her past.  It may seem like she is perfect and Shallan certainly likes to put up that front.  But in reality, she is an utter mess who is only now starting to become self-aware. 
• Just like Kaladin has a somewhat racist view of light eyes, Shallan has a somewhat warped view of dark eyes.  Shallan may not be overtly cruel to a darkeyed person, but she repeatadly looks down on them.  She repeatedly thinks that light eyes are simply better at ruling and believes that it benefits everyone if those with eye color step in to help others (ahem White Man's Burden).  Alot of the time, she kind of assumes that she will get her way by to virtue of being lightened.  I'll be honest, when Shallan took the boots off some random dark-eyed captain simply because she knew she could get away with it, I was enraged.  But this attitude is a flaw that Shallan can work to overcome, just like how Kaladin can overcome his hatred of lighteyes.

I list these flaws to show that the depths of Shallan's character and to show that even though she seems overly perfect, this is more or less an act that she puts on.  Shallan has been written as the inverse of Kaladin and the opposite trajectories of their character arcs showcase different paths towards personal growth.  It would be annoying if a main character is repeatedly shown to be perfect and never fail.  But Shallan is flawed and that makes her more interesting I think. 

 

I disagree with your asseveration. 

Shallan is not written as an inverse of Kaladin. Every character is an unique representation of nonpareil traits, flaws and plots. Also, your comparison between Kaladin's hated for lighteyes and Shallan's misconduct regarding darkeyes is not justified. 

- Kaladin did not hate lighteyes since beginning. As a surgeon, his father taught him to never be partial for a patient. He liked Laral, who is lighteyed girl and they even had great friendship until Roshone came and messed up. His views towards him in particular soured. Even then, Kaladin looked up to Amaram as a honorable lighteyed soldier. And then, that battle with Haleran Davar changed everything. 

Of course, watching your friends being killed and then being branded a slave by the very man you admired will swell violent hatred for them. Added to that, he was a lighteyed who took advantage of power, just like they always have and that was the main reason for his hatred which is condoned.

Despite his hatred, Kaladin protected Dalinar and Adolin without hesitation, knowing the consequences. He is not racist towards lighteyes...in fact, I don't think Vorin nations have racism amongst themselves but they do have class difference. And as a person who comes from a country where class system is fairly an abundant differential factor, I understand (My 'class' a century ago ruled over 'lower classes')

 

- On many instances, Shallan has behaved in a manner which could be called 'abuse of her title' 

• Calls darkeyes as peasants on many instances. The moment when Adolin states that 'bridgeboy has Shardblade and he's a darkeye.'
• Takes Kaladin's boots which is by far the worst introduction between two main leads. BS wanted it to be humor-filled and while initially I felt that, if we peek from Kal's POV then it was unwise of her. 
• Refuses to 'acknowledge' Kaladin's presence despite his ranking. The carriage scene. 
• Refers him as 'bridgeman' instead of captain, tells him to 'go away and clean his bridge'. 

But, again this is 'expected' of her as someone doused in Vorin indoctrination and having slaves in her house. Also, her household wasn't stable by million miles. 

I do not hold severe dislike for Shallan. She was good enough in TWoK, ignoring her mirthless jokes. Her arc became even better in WoR and continued for Part 1 and 2 of Oathbringer but after that, she became really annoying to me. Kaladin at least acknowledges his fears, his flaws and tried to be better. Shallan does no such thing and even  after years, she chooses to hide in her lies rather than confront the truth. And don't get me started on their trauma levels because again, that cannot be 'compared' but we do know who had faced more trauma than the other but tried to better at every given chance. 

Shallan is someone I cannot relate myself to as I do with Kaladin or even Jasnah. And it's not because of her multiple identities. I hope she manages to overcome the lies and face an eventual truth. 

Edit: After seeing reviews, I think I'm gonna be disappointed in expecting any improvement on Shallan's character. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SomeRandomPeasant]

On 11/14/2020 at 9:09 AM, Frustration said:

Shallans personallity is literally whatever works for the scene and that's it.

She says she doesn't like confrontation in book one and that seems to be the case, She hid from Jasnah, and froze from the theives in the alley

Yet the next book she becomes James Bond with an adtitude, she throws verbal insults at everyone, sneaks into high security orginizations and outmanuvers people who manipulate nations.

Then book three comes along, and she's useless!

And even worse she is inconsistanct even in the same book, In Oathbringer she gets outplayed by an assitant spy after doing the same thing to a full Ghostblood? Are you kidding me? and then she is in one scene subverting the entire nobility and the next she falls apart.

There is a dissonance there and it doesn't work well, it could be played like a spy with a soft side but it's played like a pappered noble with a secret side, and for those of us here that just doesn't work, especially the way it's played out.

 I feel like this is missing the big chunk of Shallan’s arc in Words of Radiance. 

She is naturally timid, but she develops another personality “Veil” which has the confidence to undertake the tasks that are set out before her.  She doesn’t really become a James Bond character with a high level of skill and experience.   Veil just becomes more confident.  Shallan/Veil uses uses Radiant powers to give herself a huge edge, and she is cunning enough to outmaneuver certain situations.  But for the most part, she blunders through everything in Words of Radiance.

In Oathbringer, her repeated failures drive home the fact that she isn’t actually as skilled as she thinks she is.  She is no Mraize, Jasnah, or Taravangian who actually have real-world experience.  The personalities she has been relying on aren't enough to slap together a solution every time.  Oathbringer reveals that even though she means well, she is incredibly naive and has grown complacent.  I thought the critics who call Shallan overly perfect would rejoice at the fact that Shallan fails so often in Oathbringer because it shows that Shallan is way over her head when it comes to the real world.

Edited November 16, 2020 by SomeRandomPeasant

[SomeRandomPeasant]

16 hours ago, Ramona Tehradin said:

I disagree with your asseveration. 

Shallan is not written as an inverse of Kaladin. Every character is an unique representation of nonpareil traits, flaws and plots. Also, your comparison between Kaladin's hated for lighteyes and Shallan's misconduct regarding darkeyes is not justified. 

- Kaladin did not hate lighteyes since beginning. As a surgeon, his father taught him to never be partial for a patient. He liked Laral, who is lighteyed girl and they even had great friendship until Roshone came and messed up. His views towards him in particular soured. Even then, Kaladin looked up to Amaram as a honorable lighteyed soldier. And then, that battle with Haleran Davar changed everything. 

Of course, watching your friends being killed and then being branded a slave by the very man you admired will swell violent hatred for them. Added to that, he was a lighteyed who took advantage of power, just like they always have and that was the main reason for his hatred which is condoned.

Despite his hatred, Kaladin protected Dalinar and Adolin without hesitation, knowing the consequences. He is not racist towards lighteyes...in fact, I don't think Vorin nations have racism amongst themselves but they do have class difference. And as a person who comes from a country where class system is fairly an abundant differential factor, I understand (My 'class' a century ago ruled over 'lower classes')

I think it is very clear that Kaladin is heavily discriminatory against light eyes.  He admits it repeatedly in Words of Radiance.  His hatred is certainly justified, but he still has an unreasonable burning rage against most light eyes as of Words of Radiance.  He views every single light eye as an oppressor.  While this certainly applies to some light-eyes, a general categorization of someone based on eye color is, by definition, discriminatory.  Kaladin says that the reason he was willing to guard a light-eyes was because he was actually trying to protect Bridge Four.  His main goal in Words of Radiance was ultimately to train Bridge Four into an elite dark-eyed mercenary company.  But just because he protected light-eyes doesn’t mean he doesn’t hate their guts, as his Third Oath shows quite clearly. I can understand if you object to the term “racist” because it doesn’t really apply to this situation, but I use it because English does not have a word for “discriminatory against eye color”.  

16 hours ago, Ramona Tehradin said:

And don't get me started on their trauma levels because again, that cannot be 'compared' but we do know who had faced more trauma than the other but tried to better at every given chance. 

Shallan is someone I cannot relate myself to as I do with Kaladin or even Jasnah. And it's not because of her multiple identities. I hope she manages to overcome the lies and face an eventual truth. 

Edit: After seeing reviews, I think I'm gonna be disappointed in expecting any improvement on Shallan's character. 

I don’t know why conversations about Shallan eventually come to this.  It doesn’t matter who suffered “more”.  I would actually agree that Kaladin has suffered “more” even if his type of suffering is different.  But Shallan has still suffered egregiously, and she can still have a well-written character arc even if she has never been on a bridge run, or lived as a slave.  After all, the trauma that Dalinar has suffered has been the direct result of his own actions.  Yet I would still say his arc is incredibly well written.  

What I am about to say has already been said already but I think it bears repeating.   Everybody will gravitate towards different characters and that is perfectly okay.  But that doesn’t mean character arcs involving characters that I don’t like are automatically poorly written. I can understand why people can view Shallan as somewhat of a drag alongside Kaladin.  Kaladin’s arc is incredibly well written.  The “Bridge Run” arc is simply inspiring, and I think it is among one the most powerful Cosmere arcs Sanderson has ever written.  But just because many people don’t like Shallan as much as Kaladin doesn’t mean she is a poor character.

Edited November 16, 2020 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Chaos]

Since this is an extremely old topic, I will be closing it when Rhythm of War comes out. People are free to make threads complaining about Shallan, of course.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I think it is very clear that Kaladin is heavily discriminatory against light eyes.  He admits it repeatedly in Words of Radiance.  His hatred is certainly justified, but he still has an unreasonable burning rage against most light eyes as of Words of Radiance.  He views every single light eye as an oppressor.  While this certainly applies to some light-eyes, a general categorization of someone based on eye color is, by definition, discriminatory.  Kaladin says that the reason he was willing to guard a light-eyes was because he was actually trying to protect Bridge Four.  His main goal in Words of Radiance was ultimately to train Bridge Four into an elite dark-eyed mercenary company.  But just because he protected light-eyes doesn’t mean he doesn’t hate their guts, as his Third Oath shows quite clearly. I can understand if you object to the term “racist” because it doesn’t really apply to this situation, but I use it because English does not have a word for “discriminatory against eye color”.  

I don’t know why conversations about Shallan eventually come to this.  It doesn’t matter who suffered “more”.  I would actually agree that Kaladin has suffered “more” even if his type of suffering is different.  But Shallan has still suffered egregiously, and she can still have a well-written character arc even if she has never been on a bridge run, or lived as a slave.  After all, the trauma that Dalinar has suffered has been the direct result of his own actions.  Yet I would still say his arc is incredibly well written.  

What I am about to say has already been said already but I think it bears repeating.   Everybody will gravitate towards different characters and that is perfectly okay.  But that doesn’t mean character arcs involving characters that I don’t like are automatically poorly written. I can understand why people can view Shallan as somewhat of a drag alongside Kaladin.  Kaladin’s arc is incredibly well written.  The “Bridge Run” arc is simply inspiring, and I think it is among one the most powerful Cosmere arcs Sanderson has ever written.  But just because many people don’t like Shallan as much as Kaladin doesn’t mean she is a poor character.

It's not that I like Kaladin more

It's that I groan every time Shallan has a PoV.

That's how bad it is.

[Ramona Tehradin]

3 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I think it is very clear that Kaladin is heavily discriminatory against light eyes.  He admits it repeatedly in Words of Radiance.  His hatred is certainly justified, but he still has an unreasonable burning rage against most light eyes as of Words of Radiance.  He views every single light eye as an oppressor.  While this certainly applies to some light-eyes, a general categorization of someone based on eye color is, by definition, discriminatory.  Kaladin says that the reason he was willing to guard a light-eyes was because he was actually trying to protect Bridge Four.  His main goal in Words of Radiance was ultimately to train Bridge Four into an elite dark-eyed mercenary company.  But just because he protected light-eyes doesn’t mean he doesn’t hate their guts, as his Third Oath shows quite clearly. I can understand if you object to the term “racist” because it doesn’t really apply to this situation, but I use it because English does not have a word for “discriminatory against eye color”.  

Of course, however am I not aware of a English word for 'discrimination against eye color'!

Edited November 16, 2020 by Ramona Tehradin

[jamesbondsmith]

Maybe it's already been stated in this thread, but I just had to point this out.

Oathbringer (not onto ROW yet. Yeah, I read slowly, sue me)

Spoiler

 

'At least my soldiers knew when to get away from the warcamps, as opposed to just standing around letting people fling arrows at them'. 

Did she just have the audacity to claim that slaves who will be killed for escaping were stupid/lazy for staying in horrific conditions (partially because of one of her own people)? And everyone just... lets it slide? What the storm?

 

 

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

I definitely hated Shallan in the first book. I was bored by her chapters and I didn't see what she had to do with the interesting stuff going on at the shattered plains. I would've thought she was from a different universe except for her association with Jasnah Kholin, who I figured out about halfway through was related to Dalinar. I didn't care about Shallan's problems, and I thought she was just a whiny little child. Well, she is kind of a whiny little child.

I started to like her more in WoR, since I though Veil was kind of interesting. I'm still confused at why Shallan refuses to all-out join the ghostbloods. I mean, it's not like that tattoo would stick, so she really has nothing to worry about in regards to getting discovered

I just don't like her as a character that much. It didn't help to see her identity crisis in OB. The truth seemed so obvious to me, that I just found myself getting annoyed whenever she brought it up. That said, I don't think she's really a poorly written character. I think her jokes are stupid, but as we've seen with Wit, Brandon is fully capable of writing the most hilarious of insults. So her jokes are intentionally kind of dull. She kind of reminds me of Anakin. Everybody thought Hayden Christensen did a horrible job playing Anakin, but in fact, that just the way his character is. (I looked for the quote for about ten minutes, but I couldn't find it. But from George Lucas's own mouth, Hayden Christensen executed his lines perfectly. That's the person Anakin is.) So while I'm sick of Shallan being the way she is, I recognize that that's the way Brandon intentionally wrote her. I hope he'll write her into a more mentally stable person, but I'll accept her for now.

Alright, it was good to get that out. Back to the theory boards!