[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Frustration]

Another thing Shallans 'breaking' in Kholinar was just handled poorly, I mean yes people she knew got killed, but I never cared about any of them so I'm reading like

[+Bliev]

49 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Cruel jokes at others expense: her thought process about where to be funny is basically, can I get away with making fun of this person? If that person is beneath me then they should just get a sense of humour!

Yes, the whole Alethi "wit" culture is really cringe-worthy. Girls like Shallan are pretty much trained up in how to be mean to each other and couch it in humor. We see Jasnah do this, and Navani (and the other Alethi royals/elites treat Evi this way too). It's very dismissive and cruel. 

It's also oh-so-realistic and common. 

We have yet to see Shallan really show vulnerability in these public moments, she often reserves that for in private, and puts on a shell of dismissive ambivalence in public. Her Shallan the Wit mask really can make her unlikeable to us, particularly when she is training that razor-sharp wit at people we like. I've always identified and enjoyed Shallan the most of almost everyone, so I acknowledge my bias, but I also feel like I've known so many girls like her...traumatized, scared, acting and pretending every second of every day in an attempt to be accepted and loved, when she's inadvertently just making people like her less. It's like a train wreck sometimes. 

[clockworkspider]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Another thing Shallans 'breaking' in Kholinar was just handled poorly, I mean yes people she knew got killed, but I never cared about any of them so I'm reading like

Your inability to empathize with people or characters you don't know isn't Sanderson's fault.

[Lccaseiro58]

6 hours ago, Honorless said:

The did he just compare women with peasants scene: excuse me? Where do I even start with that?  That "peasant" is Kaladin, you just survived the Chasms together, do you have any respect for him as a fellow human being at all?

This is not the first time I saw this argument and I interpreted that scene very differently.

Quote

“I know it’s not feminine, but who cares? You’ve got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.” He took a deep breath. “I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he’s darkeyed. Well, he was. Anyway, it’s not so different from that.”

Thank you, Shallan thought, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants. But she held her tongue. This was obviously an important moment for Adolin, and he was trying to be broad-minded.

Oathbringer page 160, kindle version

To be honest, on my first read i was also mad at Shallan in this scene.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, clockworkspider said:

Your inability to empathize with people or characters you don't know isn't Sanderson's fault.

I felt absolutely nothing at that scene and will defend the position that Shallan is the single worst character Sanderson has ever published.

I in no way mean to attack you but your response was extremely condescending.

[Aon Tia]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I felt absolutely nothing at that scene and will defend the position that Shallan is the single worst character Sanderson has ever published.

I in no way mean to attack you but your response was extremely condescending.

Single worst person? 
As in that she is not a good person? Or that she is a badly written character?

On the later, I totally disagree because I think her character has been chosen and written just fine. The OB scene you are referring to, while I may agree that my emotional investment in those characters was minimal, still, you can not help but feel, for the unnecessary and untimely deaths of those characters especially the kid, and the self doubt that it created in Veil and the pain it caused her was something if I could not feel, I could atleast understand. 
 

As to the former, well I must say that Shallan, for me, is someone I am very glad is on the good side and working for them because she is very efficient at achieving what she is required to achieve and she should be kept away from the bad side!

a 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, The Traveller said:

Single worst person? 
As in that she is not a good person? Or that she is a badly written character?

On the later, I totally disagree because I think her character has been chosen and written just fine. The OB scene you are referring to, while I may agree that my emotional investment in those characters was minimal, still, you can not help but feel, for the unnecessary and untimely deaths of those characters especially the kid, and the self doubt that it created in Veil and the pain it caused her was something if I could not feel, I could atleast understand. 
 

As to the former, well I must say that Shallan, for me, is someone I am very glad is on the good side and working for them because she is very efficient at achieving what she is required to achieve and she should be kept away from the bad side!

a 

Badly written, but not entirely because of how she is written but what she's doing (though there is a part of that)

WoK: Shallan interrupts the important storyline, no one reads WoK for Shallan.

 

WoR: Shallan's parts are lame. I said it, I felt nothing for anything she did except annoyance, once again she contributes nothing. 

 

O: well Shallan is actually barrable, when she is actually doing things. Once again she is taking what should be Kal's PoVs.

 

As a person, in book one she repeatedly said she hated conflict, enter book two, she comes to the Shattered plains and immediately runs head first into.... Conflict, huh wonder we're that went. Her personality is: I pretend I'm other people, and draw. And that's it as far as I can see. Maybe other people can get more out of that but I can't.

 

As to the child, he was literally there for like two pages. Real people I can work up emotion for, him, no, Veil no.

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

This is not the first time I saw this argument and I interpreted that scene very differently.

To be honest, on my first read i was also mad at Shallan in this scene.

That was incredibly classist, condescending and hypocritical.

[Aon Tia]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

WoK: Shallan interrupts the important storyline, no one reads WoK for Shallan.

I like reading Shallan in Wok only where she is interacting with Jasnah. I liked Jasnah much more than Shallan although she was not a pov character. 
I confess that on rereads, there are many chapters of Shallan that I skip.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

WoR: Shallan's parts are lame. I said it, I felt nothing for anything she did except annoyance, once again she contributes nothing. 

 

Shallan did not contribute anything to her story!? I disagree! She is the main character here! It is her book! 

She survived the shipwreck, finds herself a bunch of goon followers and changed their lives for the better. She made her way to the shattered plains, secured her betrothal. She saved kaladin down in the chasms, let’s face it if she was not there, kaladin would not have made it out alive, his bond with syl having been broken. 
She mapped the entire shattered plains without which Dalinar’s forces would not have found Narak. She found the oathgate and learned how to activate it and singlehandedly saved Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin, Navani, bridge four and the entire army from total and complete annihilation.

Not to mention she discovered what sons of honor, ghostbloods and Jasnah were trying to discover for years. Probably decades in the case of ghostbloods and sons of honor. She discovered Urithiru. Ancient fortress of radiants proving to the world that radiants were not myths, this tower is most certainly real. 
She has provided Dalinars side a very strong fortress. 
She has contributed plenty. 

Discovering ghostbloods and solving their mystery is also going to fall to her lap. 
 

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

 

As a person, in book one she repeatedly said she hated conflict, enter book two, she comes to the Shattered plains and immediately runs head first into.... Conflict, huh wonder we're that went. Her personality is: I pretend I'm other people, and draw. And that's it as far as I can see. Maybe other people can get more out of that but I can't.

 

Her personality is conflict with her deeper true self that she has buried deep deep down, a true self that could have been. 
she says she did not like conflict because that is how she had shaped MaskShallan. That was how she had created the persona that we learn about in Wok. 
later when she needed to survive, she let a bit of Jasnah seep into her maskShallan persona. 
But when felt that the conflicts are getting bigger than maskShallan can handle, ghostbloods stuff, then she created Veil. I would not say she is not interesting, she is certainly amusing, she is not my favourite character but I think plenty of people like her in fandom to merit that she is written just fine. 
Besides in Row, so far I feel that I have re-found my interest in reading about her. After a long time I find that I want to read about her.

Spoiler

 I was a little disappointed when she was not there in chapter 10. 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by The Traveller

[Eluvianii]

Wow, this thread keeps getting revived. Seeing the amount of hate some of my favorite characters get you'd think I'm rooting for the bad guys. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Eluvianii

[Lccaseiro58]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

That was incredibly classist, condescending and hypocritical.

From Adolin right? Shallan is basically just translating.

[Honorless]

54 minutes ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

From Adolin right? Shallan is basically just translating.

Both of them.

[kaellok]

16 hours ago, Honorless said:

My top disgusting Shallan Davar moments (in no particular order):

That comment regarding shutting Renarin up when the Everstorm was approaching: wow

Yep, that wasn't very nice of Shallan, and as they were all in a 'we're about to die' situation it's actually a great clue to who she is at her core (and we don't really get a lot of those clues just handed out to us about her because of just how good she is about hiding everything about her).  On the other hand, Renarin was raving about how they were all going to die and it was distracting her from putting the clues together and actually saving everyone.  When people's lives are on the line, saving them takes priority and if that means being rude then so be it.

Quote

the stark comparison: Kaladin with a single sphere that's more than a Bridgeman could ever earn, while Shallan scoffs that even a destitute Lighteyes family of her Nahn several such spheres were less than pocket change

The eye drops scene: so you find the idea that a Lighteyes could pretend to be a Darkeyes fun, but a Darkeyes getting away from all that and pretending to be a Lighteyes is horrifying?! Oh god forbid, Shallan! And yet you found the idea of spren being captured for fabrials disturbing but what about your fellow human beings?

The did he just compare women with peasants scene: excuse me? Where do I even start with that?  That "peasant" is Kaladin, you just survived the Chasms together, do you have any respect for him as a fellow human being at all?

These three are related to her upbringing.  It's really hard to understand something that you've never experienced yourself.  It's really hard to comprehend how bad something is, even if you've learned about it.  Believing that the terrible conditions people are kept it, forced to live in, couldn't possibly be as bad as they're trying to say it was is super incredibly common in the real world.  That doesn't make her reactions good, but it makes them believable and understandable.  Especially if you've spent virtually every day of your young life being indoctrinated in the belief that the eye-color of your birth says something about your fitness and ability to rule (and also, spoiler, on Roshar it means that you might be descended from the Radiants and so the thought isn't completely meaningless like it would be on Earth, just mostly so).

None of that makes her particularly likeable as a character, but all of it is understandable in context of how she was raised, the culture she was raised in, and the fact that she's a teenager being forced to deal with world-altering paradigm shifts; expecting her to process this, say the right thing, and still not alienate people whose good opinion she is dependent upon is a bit much.  You can look, instead, to how she's thinking the things instead of acting upon them as she would have even a short time before (as in the case where Adolin is also trying to expand his worldview but does so by apparently insulting Shallan and Kaladin).  

All of that to say that she's not a badly written character at all.  There is a bunch of subtlety and depth to her that is not necessarily easy to see because so much of her is hidden or a lie; she stands in stark contrast to Kaladin (aka, All LightEyes Are Evil And I Am Mad) and Dalinar (My Enemies Know My Every Move Before I Make It Because I Am Just So Predictable).  They're all wonderfully written characters who you should feel free to like or hate or be bored by (and I have been, by all of them, at various times). 

As of the end of OB, tho, none of them are worthy of disgust.  (I mean, Dalinar might be from his time as the Blackthorn, but all of what he was is forgiven by virtually everyone because they first see so much of who he is now.)

[Koloss17]

I personally thought that in the fourth book, Kaladin was the only character I was actually interested in reading. In the second book, I quite liked how there were deep, terrible secrets that Shallan has. That was fun to watch. Her thoughts of class makes sense for the character, I’m just a bit less into it. I personally think shallan’s lines are hilarious. “I am offend. Boots.” Poor Kaladin got humiliated by a hot eater queen that wasn’t even a horneater queen. There was also the whole conversation with Adolin “ah! out!”

”you invited me in!”

”I thought you were someone else! Your knock sounded feminine! Did you knock with one or two hands!”

I knocked with one hand! I was holding food! Who knocks with two hands?”

that was fantastic. I also like the dynamic she has with Jasnah. Her radiantness all of a sudden not mattering is great. I also liked her trauma in OB. That whole book was just everyone being traumatized for 1400 pages. I understand that some of the stuff would fall flat for some, though.

 

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Shallan did not contribute anything to her story!? I disagree! She is the main character here! It is her book! 

She survived the shipwreck, finds herself a bunch of goon followers and changed their lives for the better. She made her way to the shattered plains, secured her betrothal. She saved kaladin down in the chasms, let’s face it if she was not there, kaladin would not have made it out alive, his bond with syl having been broken. 
She mapped the entire shattered plains without which Dalinar’s forces would not have found Narak. She found the oathgate and learned how to activate it and singlehandedly saved Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin, Navani, bridge four and the entire army from total and complete annihilation.

Not to mention she discovered what sons of honor, ghostbloods and Jasnah were trying to discover for years. Probably decades in the case of ghostbloods and sons of honor. She discovered Urithiru. Ancient fortress of radiants proving to the world that radiants were not myths, this tower is most certainly real. 
She has provided Dalinars side a very strong fortress. 
She has contributed plenty. 

Discovering ghostbloods and solving their mystery is also going to fall to her lap. 

And all of it was completely boring,

Helping the merchants did nothing for the plot, and when she does advance the plot it's more of a 'oh I've got this' than 'I worked hard and figured this out'  I would have preferred Jasnah to do it, and the only reason she left was so Shallan could be on her own.

 

8 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Her personality is conflict with her deeper true self that she has buried deep deep down, a true self that could have been. 

she says she did not like conflict because that is how she had shaped MaskShallan. That was how she had created the persona that we learn about in Wok. 
later when she needed to survive, she let a bit of Jasnah seep into her maskShallan persona. 
But when felt that the conflicts are getting bigger than maskShallan can handle, ghostbloods stuff, then she created Veil. I would not say she is not interesting, she is certainly amusing, she is not my favourite character but I think plenty of people like her in fandom to merit that she is written just fine. 

It's badly done, every other character is better, even her WoK prime version is better.

[I Am A Fish]

8 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Wow, this thread keeps getting revived. Seeing the amount of hate some of my favorite characters get you'd think I'm rooting for the bad guys. 

I empathize.

, I honestly don't get why people hate Shallan. I seem to be in the minority here, but in plenty of places I've been annoyed when her POV was interrupted. 

There are plenty of characters that I can understand hating. But seriously, Shallan?

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

On 12/30/2019 at 10:14 PM, Karger said:

We also know that they are a worldhopping organization

No they aren't they have a member who is a world hopper other than that their Roshar based

[Aon Tia]

35 minutes ago, Somebody from Roshar said:

No they aren't they have a member who is a world hopper other than that their Roshar based

Mraize had all those trinkets, stuff from other planets, suggests that he too has traveled to other planets. And there may be many more.... It is possible that they are a world hoppers based organisation. Their goals certainly seem cosmere wide.

[Karger]

9 hours ago, Somebody from Roshar said:

No they aren't they have a member who is a world hopper other than that their Roshar based

That is untrue.  They are worldhoppers.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Have we seen Ghostbloods in action outside of the Rosharan system?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have seen proto-Ghostbloods, but not after the their actual initiation.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

How do you choose worldhoppers to depict in your books?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There's couple of ways I choose worldhoppers. The background story plays a big part, but some worldhoppers just want to be immigrants. Some people you meet, you'll notice they're from a different planet but aren't involved in any schemes. They just wanted to get to another planet.

There's groups like the Ghostbloods, but there's also just trade between places like Roshar and Nalthis. I have to be careful to not make everyone an easter egg from other worlds. That would strain plausibility very easily.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

[jamesbondsmith]

I get frustrated with her for a lot of reasons.

For one of the 'heroes', she just seems to buy into the whole 'lighteyes are superior' mentality way too much for my liking. For example, the boots scene everyone mentions and her abject horror that darkeyes can pretend to be lighteyed (but it’s fine and dandy for her to do the opposite). Granted, Adolin and a few others have had shades of this too, and one of my big hopes for later books is that all the lighteyes get off their 'we're superior' high horse.

Is there a concrete answer for when each Order gets their Shardblades? Because if Lightweavers get it at 3rd Ideal, then it appears that Shallan went way backwards from when she was a little kid. She seems to skirt dangerously close to breaking the rules of Radiance and going back on oaths without significant repercussions. For an order based on honesty, I feel like constantly denying parts of herself isn't ideal. She seems to get far less flak for going back on oaths than Kaladin did.

Her 'humour' has been mentioned heaps, so I won't get too into it. Suffice to say, it's terrible and been treated as the height of wit. To be honest, this is an issue I have with the character of Wit as well.

Finally, let's be honest, if there was a zombie apocalypse, she would definitely be the one who pretends they didn't get bitten and then infects everyone. (I'm pretty proud of this observation, tbh).

But the thing is, a lot of it makes sense. She’s a young woman in a world which has strictly defined gender roles. She came from an abusive household (even her brother is giving off warning signs of being a future serial killer), so it makes sense that she’d hold onto whatever power she felt she had. She’s been raised in nobility, so it makes sense that she’d think in ways that justified her ‘innate superiority’ (even if we and other characters think it’s a load of bull).

It does draw me out of the story when she talks more like a dusty textbook than a real person, but an aspiring scholar would probably try their best to sound like that.

Just because I can understand why she thinks that way doesn’t mean I have to like her for it. I can understand why the Ironborn and Dothraki in ASOIAF have such a cruel culture (or even why the Alethi are such warmongers), doesn’t mean I have to find that culture acceptable.

[Karger]

58 minutes ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Is there a concrete answer for when each Order gets their Shardblades?

Generally is seems oath three.  In general Lightweavers are pretty weird even if we don't take into account that she is unreliable as a narrator.

59 minutes ago, jamesbondsmith said:

For an order based on honesty, I feel like constantly denying parts of herself isn't ideal

The order is based on self actualization.  This is a journey not a destination.  The fact that she is having trouble does not mean that she is breaking her oaths it just means she is having trouble progressing.

1 hour ago, jamesbondsmith said:

She seems to get far less flak for going back on oaths than Kaladin did.

She was a kid and went through something incredibly traumatic.  A bit different then Kaladin giving in to the dark side.

1 hour ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Finally, let's be honest, if there was a zombie apocalypse, she would definitely be the one who pretends they didn't get bitten and then infects everyone. (I'm pretty proud of this observation, tbh).

I mean yeah but lets face it.  With the exception of Jasnah and maybe Szeth I am not sure I want any of team radiant around and even those two would probably end up mercy killing me.  IE Kaladin would make a sacrifice play and get taken out early or refuse to abandon a member that was injured.

[+Bliev]

On 9/12/2020 at 8:18 PM, Frustration said:

WoK: Shallan interrupts the important storyline, no one reads WoK for Shallan.

I literally skip so many Bridge 4 and Kaladin chapters that I feel guilty and have to go back and re-read them. It's one reason I like re-reads, because then I can skip the Windrunner stuff. I don't find Kal nearly as compelling of a person or character as many do, which is fine. 

I have a hard time re-reading WoK because there's not enough Shallan for my liking, tbh. 

See--ppl are different! 

[DramaQueen]

2 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I literally skip so many Bridge 4 and Kaladin chapters that I feel guilty and have to go back and re-read them. It's one reason I like re-reads, because then I can skip the Windrunner stuff. I don't find Kal nearly as compelling of a person or character as many do, which is fine. 

I have a hard time re-reading WoK because there's not enough Shallan for my liking, tbh. 

See--ppl are different! 

Same, but I skip Dalinar. His chapters are the ones that are boring for me. But I agree that there's not nearly enough Shallan, but what there is of her is really good if you ask me. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I really like Kabsal. Still. So I enjoy Shallan's chapters, but I also just like Shallan. There are a lot of good points on here that I hadn't considered before, but Shallan is still my favorite of the three main perspectives.

[Negative_Null]

I like Shallan chapters but I agree that she's a problematic character for a lot of reasons. Fortunately, I think Sanderson is doing it on purpose. She's going to develop and change and a lot of the problems that people have are going to become less, at least I really hope so. I figure being in-laws with Renarin and Jasnah, and spending more time with Vathah and those guys, will help her grow to see other people as actual humans.

[+Bliev]

2 minutes ago, Negative_Null said:

I like Shallan chapters but I agree that she's a problematic character for a lot of reasons. Fortunately, I think Sanderson is doing it on purpose. She's going to develop and change and a lot of the problems that people have are going to become less, at least I really hope so. I figure being in-laws with Renarin and Jasnah, and spending more time with Vathah and those guys, will help her grow to see other people as actual humans.

I mean...are there non-problematic SA characters? Characters who are morally unambiguous? I'd like to see them. I remember making the argument that Kal is terribly self-serving and petty for his treatment of Tarah and how he acted with her, and got blasted for it. Why? Because people identify with Kal! So they try to work themselves into understanding why he does what he does. Same with Dalinar and his warmongering. Which is great! It's one of the best things about reading. But the same should be used for Shallan. And it isn't always, imho.  

[Side note: I could probably write an essay on how the only female main viewpoint character of SA is also often the most vocally hated because she says mean things to people's fav guy, in her quest to navigate a crappy, patriarchal, bigoted culture (and, hey, hello look around at our culture...not that different, imo). "Sure, yeah, she's been through trauma, has been sheltered and raised in a horrific environment and never been taught differently, but she also says mean things about dark-eyes" is a take, I guess. Alethi culture is horrible. And she embodies some of that. But so does Kal. So does Adolin. So does Jasnah and all the Alethi characters. I just think we should be careful in who we allow to grow and who we try to understand.]