[OB] Kaladin's evolution

[Stairdweller]

Kaladin had been struggling since WoK with his feelings about what happened at the Tower.  As early as the end of the wsy of kings he tells Dalinar he doesn't want his men fighting Parshendi.  He dwells on the fact that the Parshendi behaved more honourably (or perhaos more ethically) than human armies he has witnessed - Eshonai fought Dalinar in a duel, not a brawl; the parshendi focused their attacks away from Teft and Skar, who were wounded at the time; and they allowed a retreat.  An alethi army wouldn't have done those things.  Kaladin himself resorted to defiling their dead, for Kalak's sake!  Throughout Words of Radiance he struggles with the idea that those Parshendi have their own lives, families, hopes and dreams. 

 

It gets even more complicated for him by Oathbringer.  At this point he has personally met parshmen escapees and gotten to know them, including watching a little girl pick flowers.  He has spoken with Rlain in depth about his people.  He has even spoken out to team Kholin about wanting to find a non-kill-them-all solution.

 

After all of this searching and struggling, if in the palace he had been faced with the decision of chosing which of two sides he legitimately cared about and knew - if after all that he had thought "Who do I save?  Oh right, of course it's the humans!  The ones what are like what I am!" and gone on a murder rampage through Parshmen he personally knew.... I think I would have been disgusted with him. 

 

Brandon has gone to great lengths to humanize the parshendi/parshmen/singers/listeners.  They aren't Trollocs.  As painful as it was to see Kaladin freeze up and not save anyone, I don't think he could have gone all avenging warrior here.  It would have thrown away the entire theme of "us vs. them" not serving Kaladin.

[CarolaDavar]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:47 PM, Windseeker said:

Also, on the matter of Kaladin's scars, do you believe the reasons they don't heal are tied to his fourth/fifth ideal? Sort of like Dalinar's own painful past that allowed him to become a new man in the end?

I believe there is a WoB somewhere saying that it won't heal because he sees it as part of himself. Like, Lopen could heal his arm because he had never really accepted his loss of that arm. Kaladin, however, feels like those scars are part of him, so they won't heal.

[PhineasGage]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:47 AM, Windseeker said:

1) Everything just happened incredibly fast. One moment, our team is surrounded, and the next, people start dropping dead. It's brutally realistic and portrayed the helplessness of Kaladin very well, which I guess is what made me wish for him to intervene so much.

2) Given what Kaladin has been through, I assumed he grew a thicker skin over time. He did discover ways to cope with his problems(Most recent being his burning desire to get out of Shadesmar to protect Dalinar), so I guess I expected him to be less vulnerable to the horrors of combat.

3) Actually there's a third point, now that I think of it. Given how quickly he bonded with the Wall Guard, I believed he'll prioritize them over the Parshmen(Even Kaladin admits that it felt unfair to have these people accept him so quickly when it took months to convince the bridgemen to get out of their sorry state).

I think that these points of yours have been answered exceptionally well on this thread already, but I wanted to add one thought that I haven't seen. You said that you found Kaladin's actions frustrating and wondered why he couldn't cope. Trust me (as someone who struggles with depression) that he not only feels the same way about himself, but he beats himself up more than anyone else ever could. Depression was characterised by JK Rowling as dementors which suck all the happiness out of you leaving only bad thoughts. It's not quite how I'd describe it myself, but it is certainly adequate - Imagine every time you think about yourself or your actions you can only think about negative things. It isn't that you have good thoughts and ignore them, the good thoughts disappear completely. For me, a major turning point for Kaladin happens when he smiles thinking about the boots and Shallan shortly before he levels up. I actually think that brief positive moment was vital for him to lift the fog of the depression just long enough to understand why letting Elhokar was so wrong. 

14 hours ago, Lord Spiral said:

His sense of Identity was so strong that it even overwrote Shallan's Identity filled illussion. Not wanting to be healed is one thing. But to not even accept pretending that those brands and what they represent to him weren't a part of him is something else entirely.

I also thought this was what happened but do we have confirmation from WoB or anything else? I mean, he worse the other illusion just fine and that also covered his scars.

13 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

As someone with moderate to severe depression myself, Kaladin has always been pretty spot on. The rationalization of disliking/hating things to fit the mood you're in because being sad/angry/annoyed at everything doesn't need a reason but you can't accept that there isn't one. 

His battles with "The Wretch" and the overwhelming apathy/numbness that can consume you and all your motivation... 

And freezing under high stress. Your mind shutting down and being completely unable to process what's happening... And then blaming yourself for it later. Remembering it all in little vivid flashes amidst blank spaces. 

Yeah. I understand that people who don't have to deal with this crem can't understand, and get frustrated. They get frustrated with us in real life too. 

It's spot on. 

I completely agree. Storms, I freeze even without additional stress on my worst days. Put it this way, I'd have definitely frozen trying to get out of the Tailor's shop to even go to the palace - the fact he gets that far is amazing. I think he probably would have frozen even if he didn't have depression though - he had always tricked himself into believing the enemy needed to be killed. Once he identified with both sides a block was inevitable - he had to face a truth he hadn't actually accepted yet.

[Lord Spiral]

It's not confirmed that I am aware of but it seems pretty clear that this is what is going on. He wore the other disguises because that's all they were to him disguises--ugly old dude and whatnot. But hiding the brands with an illusion was (to him) lying. He'll happily hide them with his hair but he won't deny them.