[OB]Nohadon

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, hoser said:

I agree that he was there before the Orders, but I think the orders were established during his lifetime.  Otherwise he could not have walked to Urithiru or written the manual for Knighthood and the ideals.  The forty parables of the in-book tWoK correspond to the number of ideals for ten orders (leaving out the shared one).  A Bondsmith would arguably have had the best insight into the ideals, so I see it as a possible order for him. 

Was he a Surgebinder before the vision?  His referring to Surgebinders as them rather than us hints at no, but doesn't seem definitive to me.  Ishi must have established the Knights right after the vision.  I'm pretty sure Nohadon became a Knight, given the concerns he expressed and his writing of the Knights' manual.  

I don't think that means anything either way. I think he wrote the book, and the book itself inspire the first oath. Possibly more, but I'll wait for evidence of that. 

The book makes much more sense to me as the observations of a man on how to live a good life, with a forming organization taking it as a guide stone. If it were written specifically to create a framework for the Orders, it should have had some mention of them somewhere. 

[hoser]

1 hour ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I don't think that means anything either way. I think he wrote the book, and the book itself inspire the first oath. Possibly more, but I'll wait for evidence of that. 

The book makes much more sense to me as the observations of a man on how to live a good life, with a forming organization taking it as a guide stone. If it were written specifically to create a framework for the Orders, it should have had some mention of them somewhere. 

I think there's plenty of evidence in tWoK.  In chapter 15 it says:

Quote

"The book was used by the Radiants as a kind of guidebook, a book of counsel on how to live their lives."

Each of the parables could represent an Ideal.  The fact that there are forty is kind of a giveaway.  If it was just relevant to the first ideal when the Orders were forming, it would not have had the reputation Dalinar associates with it, as stated above.  Consider also how Dalinar uses it.  He actively considers the lessons even as a second or third level Knight. 

I think we know that Ishi set up the constraints and ideals, so they didn't develop over time and would have been known when the Knights formed.  

If people knew contextually that it was about the Knights, it would not have needed to say so, much like the Words only come when the Knight is ready.  

Edited December 1, 2017 by hoser
add reasoning for why the book doesn't declare its role

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, hoser said:

I think there's plenty of evidence in tWoK.  In chapter 15 it says:

Let me say what I meant more clearly. Nohadon should have mentioned the Orders, or the Radiants. 

The book was written for everyone, and used as a guide stone by the Knights. 

[grinachu]

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I find it highly doubtful that Nahadon was a Bondsmith, or rather, a surgebinder of the surges of Adhesion and Tension, as he was around before the Knights Radiant as an organization was formed. Consider this exchange from Dalinar's first vision of him.

- Way of Kings, Chapter 60

From these two passages at least, my impression from Nohadon is that he's casting a line between him as the king, and the surgebinders, a pattern which seems to repeat itself in his speech. Therefore, I find it unlikely that he was one.

An interesting idea however, to be sure.

 

I agree something weird is going with Nohadon but there is some evidence that he was bonded with an Honorspren (as opposed to Karm, who is bonded to a different spren). 

Quote

 

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “The Way of Kings.” iBooks. 

 

 

Also, Odium calls Nohadon dead: 

Quote

 

“What were you seeing?” Odium asked, curious. He tapped his scepter on the ground like a cane. Nohadon’s palace—where Dalinar had been moments before—materialized out of light beside them. “Ah, this one again? Looking for answers from the dead?”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer.” iBooks. 

 

I think it's more likely that the voice that Dalinar hears is Honor's cognitive shadow.  

That being said, I think Nohadon is a mystifying figure. He speaks of Surgebinders, not Knight's Radiant so it's clear they have not been founded yet.  At the same time, in his first vision, Dalinar sees Nohadon wearing the symbol of the Knight's Radiant.  We are told that Ishar founded the KR, at other places that Nohadon did. 

Yet we know he travels to Urithiru by foot. So the city must already exist. I think it was founded in his lifetime. 

[+Child of Hodor]

13 minutes ago, grinachu said:

I agree something weird is going with Nohadon but there is some evidence that he was bonded with an Honorspren (as opposed to Karm, who is bonded to a different spren). 

Also, Odium calls Nohadon dead: 

I think it's more likely that the voice that Dalinar hears is Honor's cognitive shadow.  

That being said, I think Nohadon is a mystifying figure. He speaks of Surgebinders, not Knight's Radiant so it's clear they have not been founded yet.  At the same time, in his first vision, Dalinar sees Nohadon wearing the symbol of the Knight's Radiant.  We are told that Ishar founded the KR, at other places that Nohadon did. 

Yet we know he travels to Urithiru by foot. So the city must already exist. I think it was founded in his lifetime. 

I was under the impression that Nohadon was an important part of the founding of the Knights Radiant. His scene in WoK is all about how they needed the surgebinders to be better, more reliable people and Roshar needed something to help them recover between desolations. The Knights Radiant organization helped with both these things. 

We definitely have conflicting information. From the following Taln quote it seems like the Knights developed on their own in between desolations and the Heralds rolled with it.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Talenel

Ishar keeps talking about a way to keep information from being lost following Desolations. And you have discovered something unexpected. We will use that. Surgebinders to act as guardians . . . Knights

Where as this WoR epigraph credits Ishar with imposing organization on them:

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." My best guess is Nohadon and others founded it and Ishar adjusted it when the Heralds next came back. Interestingly it does establish that Ishar was all about killing surgebinders for a looooong time before he told Nale to go around murdering them.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

8 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I'm not on board with the theory that Nohadon was a Bondsmith, primarily because of the relationship of The Way of Kings and the first ideal. Nohadon seems to have come before the Orders. Before surgebinders were bound by the Oaths. 

Is your issue one of semantics or you just don't think that Nohadon was a Surgebinder period? I used 'Bondsmith' because that's the name we have associated with that order. As I explained in the comment immediately before yours, just because he wouldn't have been considered a Knight Radiant, doesn't mean he wouldn't have been a surgebinder with the same abilities as a modern day Bondsmith. We know that the spren based the bond off of the Honorblades, so there's no reason to think that, if he had been a surgebinder, his surges would be remarkably different just because of the establishment of the orders. The nature of the surges and the powers have no reason to change, as we have no reason to think that the Honorblades have changed in how they manifest the surges. 

Quote

“Any man who holds this weapon will become a Windrunner,” Syl explained, looking back at Kaladin. “The Honorblades are what we are based on, Kaladin. Honor gave these to men, and those men gained powers from them. Spren figured out what He’d done, and we imitated it. We’re bits of His power, after all, like this sword. Be careful with it. It is a treasure.”

“So the assassin wasn’t a Radiant.”

“No. But Kaladin, you have to understand. With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the . . . checks a spren requires.” She touched it, then shivered visibly, her form blurring for a second. “This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight. A person who uses this will need far, far more Light than you will. Dangerous levels of it.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1045). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

4

As I understand it, the establishment of the Oaths and founding of the Knight's Radiant was just a way to limit the progression of their power/add checks and balances.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Calderis]

Without the Oaths I'm not sure what to think of surgebinders in general. The bond would still have had to progress, as it's a bond and the strength of that is based on the depth of connection between the soul of the surgebinder and their spren. 

I don't know what to think of Nohadon, honestly. It's baseless, but I like the idea of a normal man writing a philosophy book on morality aim for all people becoming the guidebook for the Knights much better than a Surgebinder building the guidelines for their organization. 

In the first case, it's just a good book that inspired the Orders. In the second, it's... Lessened by its specificity. 

[Fulminato]

2 hours ago, grinachu said:

Also, Odium calls Nohadon dead

 

and in the end of the book

No. It had somehow struck only the book. Burned pages fluttered around him, singed and smoldering. It had been blasted right from his hands.
Odium shook his head. “The words of a man long dead, long failed.”
Overhead, the sun finally passed behind the clouds of the storm, and all fell into darkness. Slowly, the flames of the burning pages went out.

how can a shard don't know if a men is truly death o ahd been made a cognitive shadow?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

2 hours ago, grinachu said:

Also, Odium calls Nohadon dead:

 

16 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

how can a shard don't know if a men is truly death o ahd been made a cognitive shadow?

You have to die to become a cognitive shadow as far as I'm aware.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Fulminato]

52 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

You have to die to become a cognitive shadow as far as I'm aware.

yes you should die, but i find difficult call him 'dead'.

and my question isn't retorical one. we know hoid had some ability to hide from shard, a 'normal' cognitive shadow can go hidden from a shard for some millenia?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

4 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

and my question isn't retorical one. we know hoid had some ability to hide from shard, a 'normal' cognitive shadow can go hidden from a shard for some millenia?

Being bound to a spren post death would qualify him as not normal. Mistborn: Secret History spoilers

Spoiler

His vision sequence with Dalinar isn't normal, Kelsier had to get Spook a Hemalurgic Spike to be able to interact with him person to person.

As for being able to go hidden, that could be explained as part of why the sibling went dormant. If he wasn't active at all, there'd be no way to detect him, Odium is trapped off world. Morning MSH spoilers.

Spoiler

Kelsier preserved himself by locking himself into the prison that housed Ruin, and was already heavily influenced by the Shard, so it would be impossible to hide from that, when the very essence that sustains you are the binds that tie the enemy shard. That does not appear to be the case for my theory.

We don't have much information with way how far past Braize Odium's influence and vision extended beyond that of the unmade before his release in the Everstorm. I don't think it's implausible that he could have remained hidden, especially if the spren went dormant.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

1) Being bound to a spren post death would qualify him as not normal. Mistborn: Secret History spoilers

  Hide contents

His vision sequence with Dalinar isn't normal, Kelsier had to get Spook a Hemalurgic Spike to be able to interact with him person to person.

2) As for being able to go hidden, that could be explained as part of why the sibling went dormant. If he wasn't active at all, there'd be no way to detect him, Odium is trapped off world. Morning MSH spoilers.

  Hide contents

Kelsier preserved himself by locking himself into the prison that housed Ruin, and was already heavily influenced by the Shard, so it would be impossible to hide from that, when the very essence that sustains you are the binds that tie the enemy shard. That does not appear to be the case for my theory.

3) We don't have much information with way how far past Braize Odium's influence and vision extended beyond that of the unmade before his release in the Everstorm. I don't think it's implausible that he could have remained hidden, especially if the spren went dormant.

1) a enough cracked soul and connection can allow the same interaction

Spoiler

Kelsier sat on a strange, verdant field. Green grass everywhere. So odd. So beautiful.
Spook walked over and settled down next to him. The boy removed the cloth from his eyes and shook his head, then ran his fingers through his hair. “What is this?”
“Half dream,” Kelsier said, plucking a piece of grass and chewing on it.
“Half dream?” Spook asked.
“You’re almost dead, kid,” Kelsier said. “Smashed your spirit up pretty good. Lots of cracks.” He smiled. “That let me in.”
There was more to it. This young man was special. At the very least, their relationship was special. Spook believed in him as no other had.

2) you remember wrong

Spoiler

Fuzz wavered, and Kelsier could sense the divinity’s hesitance. It was followed by a sense of purpose, like a lamp being lit, and laughter.
Very well. Be Preserved, Kelsier. Survivor.
Something shoved him forward, and Kelsier merged with the light.
Moments later he blinked awake. He lay in the misty world still, but his body—or, well, his spirit—had re-formed. He lay in a pool of light like liquid metal. He could feel its warmth all around him, invigorating.

preservation merged kelsier with the well of the ascension

3)but a spren can bond only one man, if the sibling had bonded nohadon all the time, he was the third bondsmith for millenia, no one noted? no record of him? i find this realy strange (strange, not impossibile)

[Fifth of Daybreak]

16 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

1) a enough cracked soul and connection can allow the same interaction

He was half dead, that's not just the cracked soul. Unless a drunken stupor is comparable to life threatening burns, I'm not convinced. And there's also a clear difference in their ability to remember the visions, Dalinar has a crystal clear memory, the other Doesn't remember enough not to be surprised later despite the dream interactions. 

HoA

Spoiler

“. . . AND THAT’S WHY YOU ABSOLUTELY must get that message sent, Spook. The pieces of this thing are all spinning about, cast to the wind. You have a clue that nobody else does. Send it flying for me.”Spook nodded, feeling fuzzy. Where was he? What was going on? And why, suddenly, did everything hurt so much? “Good lad. You did well, Spook. I’m proud.”He tried to nod again, but everything was fuzz and blackness. He coughed, prompting some gasps from a place far off. He groaned. Parts of him hurt quite sharply, though others just tingled. Still others . . . well, those he couldn’t feel at all, though he thought he should have been able to. I was dreaming, he realized as he slowly came to consciousness. Why have I been asleep? Was I on watch? Should I go on watch? The shop . . .

MBSH

Spoiler

At the base of the board was a tiny spike shaped like an earring. Hesitant, Spook picked it up and held it before him. Why did he want this, again? He remembered something, whispers in his dreams. Get a spike forged, an earring. An old Inquisitor spike will work. You can find one in the caverns that used to be beneath Kredik Shaw.… A dream? He considered, then—perhaps against his better judgment—jabbed the thing through his ear. Kelsier appeared in the room with him. “Gah!” Spook said, leaping back. “You! You’re dead. Vin killed you. Saze’s book says—” “It’s okay, kid,” Kelsier said. “I’m the real one.” “I…” Spook stammered. “It … Gah!” Kelsier walked over and put his arm around Spook’s shoulders. “See, I knew this would work. You’ve got them both now. Broken mind, Hemalurgic spike. You can see just enough into the Cognitive Realm. That means we can work together, you and I.”

Quote

Sorry for the quote box. My discussion in spoilers.

Spoiler

Also, in the instance you cite, Kelsier is not a cognitive Shadow, but is holding Preservation, so would not be bound by the same limitations that a cognitive Shadow is when contacting someone from the cognitive realm, and isn't a good example in this context.

 

26 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

you remember wrong

Um, no.

Spoiler

“Got stuck there, did you?” the man said. “In Ati’s prison…” He clicked his tongue. “Fitting recompense, for what you did. Poetic even.”

----

And so, he returned to gaze upon the thing. Again and again he went, struggling to comprehend, though he felt like an ant trying to understand a symphony. 

Hedid this for weeks, right up until the point when the thing looked at him.

 

27 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

3)but a spren can bond only one man, if the sibling had bonded nohadon all the time, he was the third bondsmith for millenia, no one noted? no record of him? i find this realy strange (strange, not impossibile)

I'm supposing that the Elsecaller note in the gem archive is exactly that.

[Spoolofwhool]

On 12/1/2017 at 0:08 AM, Ookla the Obtuse said:

While the Order of the Bondsmiths might not have been around, having bonded one of the spren associated with the order would still give him access to the same surges and power as far as we know. The spren modeled the bond after the Honorblades. Ishar founding the KR shouldn't change the nature of Surgebinding, just the progression of the Nahel bond as I understand it.

Yes, I'm well aware of this. However, as I still pointed out in my post, I don't think he was surgebinder at all, and the semantics surrounding him don't matter.

Also, I don't think the establishment of the Knights Radiant had much impact on the progression on the Nahel Bond. I think the different tiers were always though. 

[Tiak]

So this theory has a good deal of explanatory value, but I think there's one thing that you're missing in it, namely that a lot of characters have this sort of intrusive thought, possibly from a cognitive shadow, namely,the words.  Consider the words for a moment, for each radiant we know that these words spontaneously form in their head.  We know that the spren themselves cannot tell the radiant the words, but else something seems to be in the heads of the radiants, telling them the words.  Why can't this be the same thing that is giving Dalinar these thoughts?

I would presume that it is the remnants of Honor/Tanavast.


After all, Loras told us that he was dead long before we ever met him, but his will stayed active with his power.  Maybe this is also at work with Honor's power.  That could be why Odium has decided that he needs to do more than simply splinter Honor.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

On 12/28/2017 at 6:59 PM, Tiak said:

I would presume that it is the remnants of Honor/Tanavast.


After all, Loras told us that he was dead long before we ever met him, but his will stayed active with his power.  Maybe this is also at work with Honor's power.  That could be why Odium has decided that he needs to do more than simply splinter Honor.

The problem I have with this idea is that we know that the Stormfather is Honor's cognitive Shadow, and the Stormfather was removed from Dalinar during the time when the words popped into his head. It also doesn't explain the way that the voice seems to continue the conversation that Dalinar was having with Nohadon in the dream sequence right where it left off. 

(Emphasis mine)

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Quote

He slumped, bowing his head, listening to the tears of a woman who had believed in him. He’d never deserved her. The Stormfather’s weeping faded as Odium somehow shoved the spren away, separating them. That left Dalinar alone.

 

[dantlee]

Sorry I’m so late to the party, but during my OB reread on a long flight to Asia, I stumbled upon this little quote from the stormfather (context - it’s after Mr. T and Dalinar’s fireside chat about innocence, guilt, and the duty of kings, during which Dalinar brings up a parable from WoK):

Quote

“He was a good man,” the stormfather said. 

“Nohadon?” Dalinar said.

”yes.” 

Chapter 28, Oathbringer

The way that the stormfather speaks of Nohadon implies direct familiarity, which would make sense if Nohadon were a bondsmith. I’m going to preempt the argument that he could just be speaking from his knowledge of the visions Tanavast left him with - while that could technically be true, I can’t recall another unequivocal compliment from the stormfather about pretty much anyone. He certainly didn’t feel that way about any of the Knights Radiant, and he even sees Tanavast as flawed. 

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, dantlee said:

The way that the stormfather speaks of Nohadon implies direct familiarity, which would make sense if Nohadon were a bondsmith.

Nohadon himself says a few things that imply Radiancy during Dalinar's Vision of him in Way of Kings.

On 11/14/2017 at 3:01 PM, The One Who Connects said:

• Also, "Surgebinder." Potential implications about the timeline of when "Radiant" became the chosen title.
  • Why Surgebinder though? The origins of this term seem important. (Have any Nahel Spren used the word "Surge" before?)
• "I don't know if we can force them[Surgebinders] to do anything."  Proof that the KR saw themselves as above the law?
• Nohadon uses the phrase "Nahel Bond" more than once. Who else has used this phrase before?
• "Perhaps our abilities are proof of a divine election."  Is this implying that Nohadon and Karm were Surgebinders?

And there's also this, which might support the Bondsmith claim:

On 11/14/2017 at 3:01 PM, The One Who Connects said:

• Nohadon's "crown" appears to be thread woven into his hair, something I never picked up on before.  His crown comes together into the symbol of the Knight's Radiant, although how that was done is beyond my ability to visualize.
  • It reminds me of the crowns Vedel and Jezrien bear in their endpaper artwork, with the symbols of their respective orders on them. I'm curious about both the in-world and real-life inspirations for that design decision.

If Nohadon's Book was the work upon which the Ideals were based on, then them adopting the symbol of his crown as the symbol of their redesigned organization seems reasonable too. Him being a Bondsmith would only help support that decision.

[animalia]

Part of me wonders if Nohadon was the rare individual able to bond multiple spren. Maybe one of the reasons he understood all the orders so well is that before he became a bondsmith he worked with spren from the other orders?

[Krafl]

I am completely on board with this theory, at least in its core assumption: Nohadon is still around in some fashion. In my opinion, the whole interaction between Dalinar and Nohadon in chapter 103 of OB is an evidence that Dalinar is interacting with something (probably a cognitive shadow) which fits perfectly the personality of the ancient king (from what we know from him). In the vision Nohadon tries to make Dalinar truly understand the meaning of the words "Journey before Destination", and also the real message behind the teachings of The Way of Kings (when he says that living by principles has a price that is balanced, even if it is hard to see the balance). To me this kind of discussion seems to be something that could come only from Nohadon himself, more than the cognitive shadow of Tanavast. 
Another strong point to this theory, is the parallelism with the discussion between Spook and Kelsier, showed in Secret history: Kelsier is able to create a kind of "half dream", as he says, in which he comunicates with Spook, and he is able to do so because of the strong connection Spook had with him and also for the cracks in the spirit web Spook has (as Kelsier says 

Quote

Smashed your spirit up pretty good. Lots of cracks. - Mistborn Secret History, Part Six, Chapter Six.

All of this can be easily applied to Nohadon and Dalinar too.
 

[Golstar]

I think Nohadon is dead, but that his Cognitive Shadow is still around. If Kelsier can stick around as a Cognitive Shadow after being killed, through sheer force of will (and some investiture from Preservation perhaps), then I'm sure a Bondsmith could do it if the Sibling is still around. This would also explain why noone can bond the Sibling - there is already a bond in place. When Dalinar summons the Perpendicularity, the three realms are joined and Odium can see Nohadon lurking around (like how Kelsier was lurking around Vin a lot of the time). This confuses Odium, perhaps because he doesn't understand how a mere human can stick around as a Cognitive Shadow (Leras did it for thousands of years, so Odium probably knows a Vessel can do this).

We know from Harmony that a Shard can regrow a physical form and reattach the Cognitive Shadow. Nale does this with Szeth. Harmony offers this to Vin and Elend (and lies to Kelsier).

I think we could see Nohadon return if someone manages to recreate his physical form (and he's willing to return). Cultivation could probably do this. She is about growing things after all.

[Karger]

I think Nohadon's soul is still around.  The idea of him if you will but not his conciousness.  I am not even 100% sure that he wrote The Way of Kings or that everything in the book literally happened to him.  As Taravangain points out some of the stories or too neat or simple.  At this point he is probably an arthurian figure.  I think Dalinar is looking into the SR seeing Nohadon's soul and his mind is placing this in a context that he can understand and relate to.  Warbreaker

Spoiler

The returned actually do something like this when the predict the future

Dalinar is looking for his role model.  His ideal king, leader, and radiant.

[Golstar]

Speaking of Nohadon and the Way of Kings: It's interesting how Dalinar and Gavilar let the book guide them, but in rather dissimilar ways. Gavilar served the Sons of Honor, a group epitomizing "the-ends-justify-the-means", elitism and acceptable losses, whereas Dalinar highlights restraint (the story of Hogman's murder), self-sacrifice and defeat-over-dishonor. Yet everyone describe both individuals as being greatly inspired by the book.

Are they both cherry-picking? Is Dalinar seeing his own idealized version of Nohadon or was Gavilar really that deluded? Perhaps Odium was playing the long con, grooming Dalinar to bind the Stormfather (by having Gavilar pass on the Way of Kings and the Codes so powerfully), only to then lure him into breaking his oath and "killing" the Stormfather?

If so, perhaps, the existence of a Cognitive Shadow of Nohadon - be it as the "ghost" of an actual historical figure or as a Spren of the Ideal King - was instrumental in foiling this? Of course alongside the machinations of Cultivation in pruning Dalinar. Shards are somewhat blind to the investiture of other shards, so perhaps Odium unwittingly brought Dalinar to the attention of Nohadon, through simple ignorance of the existence of a Nohadan spren.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Golstar

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Golstar said:

Speaking of Nohadon and the Way of Kings: It's interesting how Dalinar and Gavilar let the book guide them, but in rather dissimilar ways. Gavilar served the Sons of Honor, a group epitomizing "the-ends-justify-the-means", elitism and acceptable losses, whereas Dalinar highlights restraint (the story of Hogman's murder), self-sacrifice and defeat-over-dishonor. Yet everyone describe both individuals as being greatly inspired by the book.

We don't really know all of what Gavilar was doing.  He clearly was not telling the sons of honor everything.

6 minutes ago, Golstar said:

If so, perhaps, the existence of a Cognitive Shadow of Nohadon - be it as the "ghost" of an actual historical figure or as a Spren of the Ideal King - was instrumental in foiling this?

Not a spren a spirit.  Spren are cognitive.  I don't think any left over Nohadon will have any agency beyond the inspirational.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Karger

[Golstar]

35 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not a spren a spirit.  Spren are cognitive.  I don't think any left over Nohadon will have any agency beyond the inspirational.

Rosharans use Spren for anything which is pulled from the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm. If you look at Kelsier and Leras in Mistborn, they exist only in the Cognitive Realm, but can still affect the Physical Realm, and Kelsier actually contacts Spook in a dream. Dalinar sees the non-automaton version of Nohadon in a dream, perhaps this is related to how Kelsier contacts Spook during the Catacendre?

We have seen no examples of Cognitive Shadows which transition to the Spiritual Realm and come back. We've seen the Returned peer into the Spiritual Realm, we've seen Dalinar open a connection to it, we've seen Ascending Vessels learn about the past from the Spiritual Realm. If Nohadan exists in any way in the Cognitive Realm, he is a Cognitive Shadow of something - the individual Nohadon and/or the memory/concept of Nohadon.

I agree that Spren is wrong when he's never manifested in the Physical Realm, but I think spirit is also wrong, assuming he still has a presence in the Cognitive Realm.

Spren can actually be non-sentient I believe. Isn't that the distinction between the True spren and the others? Sentience requires a Spirit Web, so I guess that means a lesser Spren is lacking a Spirit Web.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Golstar