[OB]Nohadon

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Something strange is going on with Nohadon. I trust Dalinar when he says that it's a vision and it's unlike the rest. Nohadon, inside that vision, speaks to Dalinar with familiarity, and directly addressed the manifestation of the thunderclast.  The Stormfather also says that Dalinar was shown all the visions of Nohadon. 

And yet, in the vision, Nohadon addresses Dalinar directly:

Quote

“All things exist in three realms, Dalinar,” Nohadon said. “The Physical: what you are now. The Cognitive: what you see yourself as being. The Spiritual: the perfect you, the person beyond pain, and error, and uncertainty.” Monsters of stone and horror surrounded him, heads cresting roofs, feet crushing buildings.

“You’ve said the oaths,” Nohadon called. “But do you understand the journey? Do you understand what it requires? You’ve forgotten one essential part, one thing that without which there can be no journey.”

The monsters slammed fists toward Dalinar, and he shouted. “What is the most important step a man can take?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 968). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

This is something that has not happened before. This is also the first time we see the question "what is the most important step a man can take," which will have great significance later on. 

Before I go any further, I want to extend some thank yous to the folks who beat into my head the possibility of this being a thing over on this thread.

It took a lot of hard convincing but they finally won me over, so thanks for sticking with it everyone, especially @hoser and @Paragrin

So the essence of that thread was trying to figure out who Odium was referencing when Dalinar Ascended and he said "No, we killed you." While I'm supposing that person is Nohadon, I don't want to get into that discussion per se, but rather, the proofs behind whether it's possible and what people think about him on a broader level, as a quick search didn't show a Nohadon topic. 

 

To boil things down, I think that Nohadon was a Bondsmith, and he was bonded to the Sibling. I think that after he died, he bound his cognitive shadow to the spren in a similar way to what Honor did, preserving him for the future and allowing him to connect with Dalinar. There is some textual evidence to support this theory. First off, of any order, the Bondsmiths would be the ones who would be able to accomplish something like this. 

Quote

Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all, though they will be impotent if you seek to wield them for mere battle.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 639). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

The Way of Kings is also very much about unifying people. It's the book that inspired Dalinar to become a Bondsmith. Nohadon exhibits those traits of uniting instead of dividing. 

But let's continue on past this point. The evidence is not hard, but plausible, that Nohadon could both be a Bondsmith and accomplish such a task. 

We know there are only three Bondsmiths. In Oathbringer, we learned a few more things. 

Quote

This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing.

—From drawer 24-18, smokestone

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 666). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

1

So one Bondsmith that generation. They fear it's because Honor is changing. I put forth that it because this is when Honor intentionally splintered himself into the Stormfather. 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Seons are Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Splinters of Devotion.

Questioner

Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall...

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather?

Questioner

The Stormfather.

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself.

Questioner

Does he have another Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally.

 

3

I say this because we know that Dalinar is the first to bond the Stormfather since the change. 

Quote

“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son,” Odium said. “You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 550). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

This means we can infer they had been previously bonding the Stormfather and one other spren since they were aware of their concerns with Honor. We have this information from an Elsecaller, saying that one Sibling had withdrawn. I put forth that this Sibling was bonded to Nohadon, and she discovered that Nohadon had preserved his cognitive shadow inside of it. 

Quote

 

My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent—but I find counter to that theory.

 —From drawer 1-1, first zircon

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 677). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

1

Paragrin has solid evidence that with Connection, you can interact with people from the spiritual realm, even without it having a direct influence on the way the text formatting is displayed, or the internal voice is distinguished in the character's mind.

On 11/26/2017 at 4:26 PM, Paragrin said:

Hold on. Let's jump books here.

Hero of Ages spoiler:

Spoiler

But not Spook. The only one who didn't fit in.

I named you, Spook. You were my friend.

Isn't that enough?

Spook froze, forcing the others to stop.

 

Secret History

Spoiler

"I named you, Spook," Kelsier whispered. "You were my friend. Isn't that enough?"

Spook stopped in place. pulling against the grip of the others.

 

This is very definitively coming from an external source, and it's in the same formatting. Just like regular thoughts inside his own head. And the person on the receiving end's only special qualities are savantism and a personal connection with the speaker. The outside force is contacting him. (There's a few more examples right around there, but that one was the first one I found and I'm not typing up anything else.)

The formatting is not evidence against it being an outside voice. It's not conclusive evidence for, either, but outside sources have used the same formatting.

 

 

I'm still going through my reread, but, in the chapter 'Bondsmith,' I found another little piece that made me think Nohadon was nudging Dalinar along.

Quote

It was shocking, then, to feel his own sudden, stark displeasure. For some reason, those frightened faces hit him harder than the sword had.

Angry, ashamed for a reason he still didn’t understand, he turned and strode away, up the steps from the courtyard toward the temple above. He waved away Navani when she came to speak with him. Alone. He needed a moment alone. He climbed to the temple, then turned and sat down on the steps, putting his back against the stone block that had fallen into the doorway. The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. And beyond that sound was …

Disappointment. What had he just accomplished? He said he didn’t want to conquer this people, but what story did his actions tell? I’m stronger than you, they said. I don’t need to fight you. I could crush you without exerting myself. Was that what it should feel like to have the Knights Radiant come to your city?

Dalinar felt a twisting nausea deep in his gut. He’d performed stunts like this dozens of times throughout his life—from recruiting Teleb back in his youth, to bullying Elhokar into accepting that Dalinar wasn’t trying to kill him, to more recently forcing Kadash to fight him in the practice chamber.

Below, people gathered around Fen’s son, talking animatedly. The young man rubbed his chest, as if he’d been the one who’d been struck. In the back of Dalinar’s mind, he heard that same insistent voice.

The one he’d heard from the beginning of the visions. Unite them.

“I’m trying,” Dalinar whispered.

Why couldn’t he ever convince anyone peacefully? Why couldn’t he get people to listen without first pounding them bloody—or, conversely, shocking them with his own wounds? He sighed, leaning back and resting his head against the stones of the broken temple.

Unite us. Please.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 595-596). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

4

Dalinar has his reaction, the Stormfather rumbles around, as he is want to do, and then there is a disappointment beyond that. Which is what I am putting forth to be Nohadon's Cognitive Shadow bonded to a spren, using Connection to interact with Dalinar. He does this again later, answering the question he gave Dalinar earlier as Dalinar struggles for meaning against the pain of his past and questions the answer he came to so easily.

Quote

The most … the most important …

Inside his fist, he somehow found a golden sphere. A solitary gloryspren.

The most important step a man can take. It’s not the first one, is it?

It’s the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1133). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

1

On a more personal note, the way Brandon answers this question makes me feel like he wanted to see if they had picked up on some foreshadowing he had put into place, but I haven't scrutinized WoK or WoR, and this is from when WoR was published. He's reacting similarly to the when I asked about Helaran not being bonded to a spren during the WoR signing. 

Quote

Questioner

So Nohadon's still alive, right?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Why would you say that Nohadon is still alive?

Questioner

I know he's still alive.

Brandon Sanderson

Why would you say he's still alive?

Questioner

It's the perfect trick, that you're gonna bring back Nohadon. It's my feeling about things.

 

So, brief wrap up, plausible evidence that it could be possible using a Bondsmith's power, Nohadon displays the right temperament to be a Bondsmith, Nohadon interacts with Dalinar in a way that could not be a vision and Dalinar recognizes to not be a dream, we have evidence that using Connection a character can interact with another in a way that doesn't alter book script, and the italics during Dalinar's Ascension pick up right where they left off conversing in the dream, where Nohadon answers the question he posed to Dalinar. 

[Rainier]

I like this, a lot. I'm on board with Nohadon being a Bondsmith, and that it's his voice that we're hearing in Dalinar, much like your Mistborn example.

The next question, of course, is so what? So what if Nohadon is a cognitive shadow bound to the Stormfather influencing Dalinar? What does it mean?

Brandon has been coy about the afterlife on Roshar, with the Fused as the most obvious example. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Nohadon is our source for more information, via the Stormfather somehow, about the state of the three realms around Roshar. He could also be a Bondsmith-mentor to reveal some of Dalinar's more godly powers.

Great work bringing all this together. 

[Wandering Investor]

I like this theory. It is also flexible enough to allow something other than Nohadon to be the external voice. There's enough evidence that something is influencing Dalinar. I think Nohadon is a good pick, although not certain.

[charlietk421]

Also, there are several times in the book where Dalinar hears the voice in his head saying "unite them", which is later confirmed to NOT be the Stormfather. I say confirmed because Dalinar specifically asks the Stormfather, and the Stormfather says he didn't say anything.  (Would that I had a hard copy to provide page numbers, etc. Unfortunately I only have the Audible version ATM.)

Edited November 29, 2017 by charlietk421

[+Child of Hodor]

13 minutes ago, charlietk421 said:

Also, there are several times in the book where Dalinar hears the voice in his head saying "unite them", which is later confirmed to NOT be the Stormfather. I say confirmed because Dalinar specifically asks the Stormfather, and the Stormfather says he didn't say anything.  (Would that I had a hard copy to provide page numbers, etc. Unfortunately I only have the Audible version ATM.)

I wonder if this is Tanavast's cognitive shadow. We know, as stated in the WOB above, that Honor (whose vessel/holder was Tanavast) intentionally put some of his power into the Stormfather. It's possible Tanavast is able to cheer Dalinar on. 

Since Tanavast is the one that said unite them over and over in the visions it makes sense he would be the one saying that in his head on occasion. I don't know how exactly, he is dead, but he seems a more likely candidate that Nohadon. 

Then again, Evi is also not a shard vessel and Dalinar could hear her. The dream of Nohadon where he was acting very different might have actually been Nohadon. I still think Tanavast was the more likely person to say UNITE THEM in Dalinar's head since that is established to be his mantra in the visions. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

So what if Nohadon is a cognitive shadow bound to the Stormfather influencing Dalinar?

To clarify, I think that Nohadon is bound to a different Bondsmith spren than the Stormfather, the Sibling that withdrew as noted by the Elsecaller. I think that Nohadon is possibly in on Honor's plan to splinter himself as a means of helping to defeat Odium. 

 

48 minutes ago, charlietk421 said:

Also, there are several times in the book where Dalinar hears the voice in his head saying "unite them", which is later confirmed to NOT be the Stormfather. I say confirmed because Dalinar specifically asks the Stormfather, and the Stormfather says he didn't say anything.  (Would that I had a hard copy to provide page numbers, etc. Unfortunately I only have the Audible version ATM.)

It happens during the Ascension scene at least. Dalinar is separated from the Stormfather:

Quote

He slumped, bowing his head, listening to the tears of a woman who had believed in him. He’d never deserved her. The Stormfather’s weeping faded as Odium somehow shoved the spren away, separating them. That left Dalinar alone. “So alone…”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1129-1130). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

1

Then later away from the Stormfather

Quote

Unite them.

“Journey before destination,” Dalinar said. “It cannot be a journey if it doesn’t have a beginning.”

A thunderclap sounded in his mind. Suddenly, awareness poured back into him. The Stormfather, distant, feeling frightened—but also surprised.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1135). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

That first one either comes without the Stormfather from Dalinar, or from an outside source, such as Nohadon. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[knightedbishop]

I initially thought all the evidence you cite pointed toward Adonalosium’s lingering consciousness nudging Dalinar- piggy backing on Honor’s foundation. Your theory is more directly tied to Roshar and the Stormlight Archives, allowing them to stand alone without having more Cosmeric interference. That makes your theory appealing to me.

However...who is the superspren? We know the Stormfather is one. We suspect the Nightwatcher, but I’ve yet to see evidence supporting the belief. I really like the idea floating around the Urithiru is the third, and I’ve seen some evidence (the bond smith always in residence, the comparisons being made between the systems of the city as the systems of a body...the inert city parallels with how the dead spren are inert blades. 

Do we know where Dalinar is each time he is influenced in the way you describe? I know at least one is away from Urithiru- but it also seemed like a very weak nudge, a feeling, not a full fledged vision. It’d be very interesting if these influences can be tied back to being in Urithiru.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Definitely on board with Nohadon being alive in some fashion and that he was a Bondsmith. I'm pretty certain however that Melishi is the Bondsmith around the time of the Recreance (when the gemstone recordings were made and when the Sibling was bonded, presumably).

[Bremen]

Why can't Dalinar be the one that forged the Connection to Nohadon?

Seems a lot simpler than Nohadon planning ahead to such an extent.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Bremen

[Fifth of Daybreak]

34 minutes ago, knightedbishop said:

Do we know where Dalinar is each time he is influenced in the way you describe?

In the vision, he's in Urithuru. If his WoR vision is from Nohadon as well, that is also in Urithuru.

He's in Thaylen city for the other two, which puts him close to an Oathgate. 

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Contradictory said:

I'm pretty certain however that Melishi is the Bondsmith around the time of the Recreance (when the gemstone recordings were made and when the Sibling was bonded, presumably).

I'm not disagreeing, I'm interpreting the statement as saying the sinking withdrawing meant it wasn't bonding anyone, so when Nohadon died, it withdrew and stopped Bonding, leaving them with two Bondsmiths. Then, when Honor changed, presumably splintering into the Stormfather, that left Melishi bonded to the third spren during the time of the Recreance.

 

3 minutes ago, Bremen said:

Why can't Dalinar be the one that forged the Connection to Nohadon?

Seems a lot simpler than Nohadon planning ahead to such an extent.

Connecting to that extent to someone who's in the beyond when you don't understand your powers seems like a bit of a stretch to me. To me, the more plausible answer is Nohadon was able to learn some pretty weird stuff from Ishar, Binder of Gods.

[DocHoliday]

I like the idea of Nohadon still kicking around, butbi have to dispute the idea that he's responsible for the sibling's withdrawal, simply because the timelines don't add up.

Nohadon ruled sometime around the founding of the KR. I find it unlikely then that his actions wouldn't manifest consequences on a spren for a few centuries to millennia.

Looking at how much the Nahel bond affects Sylphrena, I can only imagine the magnitudes a permanent imprint would have.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

25 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

Nohadon ruled sometime around the founding of the KR. I find it unlikely then that his actions wouldn't manifest consequences on a spren for a few centuries to millennia.

Looking at how much the Nahel bond affects Sylphrena, I can only imagine the magnitudes a permanent imprint would have.

Do we know when the Sibling withdrew definitively? I'm not saying it didn't manifest for centuries, I'm saying it withdrew on his death and he's been pulling the strings ever since. That Elsecaller was just the first to notice something different.

[hoser]

Love the theory and the beautifully researched OP.  Upvoted!

I don't think it's essential to the main point of the theory, but I don't really get the timeline for Nohadon binding the Sibling from the other side.  If we assume that the Sibling is a superspren associated with Urithiru, the state of Surgebinding in the Nohadon vision seems hard to reconcile.  

I believe that Nohadon was a surgebinder wrestling with the issues of the ideals that ended up distinguishing the Knights from Surgebinders at the time of the vision.  Later during his lifetime, Ishi constrained the spren and Surgebinders into the form of the ten knightly orders.  Even later during his lifetime, Urithiru was built (by the hands of no man, or something like that) and Nohadon subsequently walked there.  

If the Sibling was a cognitive target associated with the Knights or created by H+C after the Knights were established, then that would have been after Nohadon had begun Surgebinding.  Nohadon was wearing the double eye of the almighty during the vision and clearly became a Knight.  

How the Sibling became established as a spren is key.  If the Sibling didn't exist when Nohadon began Surgebinding, then Nohadon would have started Surgebinding with a different spren.  This is not a hard argument, particularly as I don't understand the origins of the Sibling.  For example, perhaps the Sibling started as a personification of Surgebinding or was created by H+C before Nohadon began Surgebinding.  In this case, please ignore this post and return to your regularly scheduled speculation  .

Edited December 1, 2017 by hoser

[Kav]

Great theory, though I also think the timelines don't really work. Nohadon did rule fairly early on in the history of the KR and the evidence seems to suggest that the Sibling withdrew towards the end. I think it's pretty unlikely that it withdrew much earlier and it took them all that time to notice - it's potentially thousands of years. The other option is that he did bond his cognitive aspect with it in the way you suggest but the Sibling continued to bond regularly with others for a period of time, though I think this is also unlikely as I feel the next Bondsmith would have noticed. 

Is there any reason Nohadon could just have found a way to make himself a cognitive shadow without the Sibling's involvement? There's definitely other ways to go about it, there's at least one other major character hopping around the Cosmere in this way.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

51 minutes ago, hoser said:

I don't think it's essential to the main point of the theory, but I don't really get the timeline for Nohadon binding the Sibling from the other side.  If we assume that the Sibling is a superspren associated with Urithiru, the state of Surgebinding in the Nohadon vision seems hard to reconcile

1

At this point, i don't want to make any hard assumptions either way about the superspren.  I'm not completely convinced by the theory that it's the spren of Urithiru at this point. 

22 minutes ago, Kav said:

Great theory, though I also think the timelines don't really work. Nohadon did rule fairly early on in the history of the KR and the evidence seems to suggest that the Sibling withdrew towards the end. I think it's pretty unlikely that it withdrew much earlier and it took them all that time to notice - it's potentially thousands of years. The other option is that he did bond his cognitive aspect with it in the way you suggest but the Sibling continued to bond regularly with others for a period of time, though I think this is also unlikely as I feel the next Bondsmith would have noticed. 

I'm not sure we necessarily have any hard evidence on when the sibling withdrew. From the gem archive, It seems like they had two towards the end before the Stormfather splintered under honor as I am supposing, so if it's the spren that's powering Urithiru that makes the third Bondsmith, the one that kept bonding, then I don't think we have a a timeline mixup at all. 

 

24 minutes ago, Kav said:

Is there any reason Nohadon could just have found a way to make himself a cognitive shadow without the Sibling's involvement? There's definitely other ways to go about it, there's at least one other major character hopping around the Cosmere in this way.

No, but if this is a thing then Brandon has left us a trail of breadcrumbs to follow to see how he did it imo.

[KidWayne]

@Ookla the Obtuse This is some "grade A" theorycrafting, my friend. All I have to add is that there is a WoB that I've seen where Brandon says that part of a person exists in the spiritual realm after death. So, you might not even need Nohadon to exist in the cognitive realm in order for him to communicate with Dalinar via Connection. We even see this with Evi and Dalinar in the book (when she forgives him from the Beyond/Spiritual Realm/Wherever). So Nohadon may be able to pull a Kel & Spook dream conversation from the spiritual realm thanks to the Connection established by Dalinar's love/memorization of The Way of Kings.

Edited November 30, 2017 by KidWayne
grammar

[+Child of Hodor]

52 minutes ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

@Ookla the Obtuse This is some "grade A" theorycrafting, my friend. All I have to add is that there is a WoB that I've seen where Brandon says that part of a person exists in the spiritual realm after death. So, you might not even need Nohadon to exist in the cognitive realm in order for him to communicate with Dalinar via Connection. We even see this with Evi and Dalinar in the book (when she forgives him from the Beyond/Spiritual Realm/Wherever). So Nohadon may be able to pull a Kel & Spook dream conversation from the spiritual realm thanks to the Connection established by Dalinar's love/memorization of The Way of Kings.

I think so too. Dalinar also had the vivid dream with the beautiful, warm light of he and Gavilar as children at the end of WoR. Seems like Dalinar is able to connect with people who have passed on. 

[Fulminato]

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think so too. Dalinar also had the vivid dream with the beautiful, warm light of he and Gavilar as children at the end of WoR. Seems like Dalinar is able to connect with people who have passed on. 

and if they come from another source? the sleepless are around from the start, but we don't know them before 'edgedancer', i think can be some other 'power player' in roshar can be unknow to us. for exaple in this situation in WotK we still don't know the source of the words.

Life ended so quickly. The Shardbearer was destruction incarnate, the most powerful force on a battlefield. Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered. The three bridges crashed to the ground a few feet away, [...]  A parshman nurse had practically raised Dalinar. Life before death What was that voice? He glanced back across the chasm, toward where Sadeas 

(chapter 26: STILLNESS)

Edited November 30, 2017 by Fulminato

[+Child of Hodor]

4 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

and if they come from another source? the sleepless are around from the start, but we don't know them before 'edgedancer', i think can be some other 'power player' in roshar can be unknow to us. for exaple in this situation in WotK we still don't know the source of the words.

Life ended so quickly. The Shardbearer was destruction incarnate, the most powerful force on a battlefield. Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered.
The three bridges crashed to the ground a few feet away, [...]  A parshman nurse had practically raised Dalinar. Life before death What was that voice? He glanced back across the chasm, toward where Sadeas 

(chapter 26: STILLNESS)

I think Dalinar is hearing voices from multiple sources. I think the people Dalinar hears that he recognizes may like Evi are likely due to connecting to the spiritual realm which may be unique to Dalinar because he bonded with a Spren containing a splinter of Honor giving him a connection to the spiritual realm. It doesn't happen to the other KR that we know, it seems unique to Dalinar. 

The unknown voice saying Unite Them and speaking of Life before death in his head we don't really know who that is / they are. 

There may be a part of Tanavast/Honor speaking to Dalinar through the bond that Stormfather isn't aware of. We've seen another shard, Odium, talk directly into someone's head:

     "Open the window" to Taravangion in Oathbringer

      "Let go, Moash, something deep within him whispered. Give up your pain. It's all right. You did what was natural." to Moash Chapter 54 Oathbringer. 

We don't know that lesser beings are able to do this. Doesn't mean they can't and as you point out there are lots of powerful unkowns out there. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think so too. Dalinar also had the vivid dream with the beautiful, warm light of he and Gavilar as children at the end of WoR. Seems like Dalinar is able to connect with people who have passed on. 

Nohadon's situation with the vision, then when he seems to answer the question, continuing the conversation where it left off as the "thunderclast" hit Dalinar right when Dalinar was struggling for meaning is far more than just a feeling of being a child with Gavilar, which I do agree is likely Dalinar experiencing the spiritual realm. Nohadaon has to be shaping things in a way others have not been. Dalinar reached out for forgiveness, Nohadon seems to be reaching out to Dalinar. 

[Spoolofwhool]

I find it highly doubtful that Nahadon was a Bondsmith, or rather, a surgebinder of the surges of Adhesion and Tension, as he was around before the Knights Radiant as an organization was formed. Consider this exchange from Dalinar's first vision of him.

Quote

What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?” Dalinar asked carefully.

“I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power … well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them. …” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.”

Quote

“It is nothing,” Dalinar said. “You cannot give up your throne. The people need a leader.”

“They have leaders,” Nohadon said. “There are princes, kings, Soulcasters, Surgebinders. We never lack men and women who wish to lead.”

“True,” Dalinar said, “but we do lack ones who are good at it.”

- Way of Kings, Chapter 60

From these two passages at least, my impression from Nohadon is that he's casting a line between him as the king, and the surgebinders, a pattern which seems to repeat itself in his speech. Therefore, I find it unlikely that he was one.

An interesting idea however, to be sure.

 

[echaozh]

Can Cultivation send the dream to Dalinar? The dream was not noticed and interfered by Odium, so perhaps there's shard power at work.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

From these two passages at least, my impression from Nohadon is that he's casting a line between him as the king, and the surgebinders, a pattern which seems to repeat itself in his speech. Therefore, I find it unlikely that he was one.

An interesting idea however, to be sure.

 

While the Order of the Bondsmiths might not have been around, having bonded one of the spren associated with the order would still give him access to the same surges and power as far as we know. The spren modeled the bond after the Honorblades. Ishar founding the KR shouldn't change the nature of Surgebinding, just the progression of the Nahel bond as I understand it.

[Calderis]

I'm not on board with the theory that Nohadon was a Bondsmith, primarily because of the relationship of The Way of Kings and the first ideal. Nohadon seems to have come before the Orders. Before surgebinders were bound by the Oaths. 

I do agree with you you though, that the voice was not the Stormfather, and was a Cognitive Shadow. Why not the one Shadow that we know exists and is always with Dalinar and the Stormfather? If Tanavast's mind still exists within the Stormfather, but separate, it would explain quite a bit.

[hoser]

12 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I'm not on board with the theory that Nohadon was a Bondsmith, primarily because of the relationship of The Way of Kings and the first ideal. Nohadon seems to have come before the Orders. Before surgebinders were bound by the Oaths. 

I do agree with you you though, that the voice was not the Stormfather, and was a Cognitive Shadow. Why not the one Shadow that we know exists and is always with Dalinar and the Stormfather? If Tanavast's mind still exists within the Stormfather, but separate, it would explain quite a bit.

I agree that he was there before the Orders, but I think the orders were established during his lifetime.  Otherwise he could not have walked to Urithiru or written the manual for Knighthood and the ideals.  The forty parables of the in-book tWoK correspond to the number of ideals for ten orders (leaving out the shared one).  A Bondsmith would arguably have had the best insight into the ideals, so I see it as a possible order for him. 

Was he a Surgebinder before the vision?  His referring to Surgebinders as them rather than us hints at no, but doesn't seem definitive to me.  Ishi must have established the Knights right after the vision.  I'm pretty sure Nohadon became a Knight, given the concerns he expressed and his writing of the Knights' manual.