ScavellTane

[OB] 2 Theories, Renarin and Alethi.

56 posts in this topic

 

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The child made no sounds. He just stared, solemn, as he tried to grip blade after blade.

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He was … unaccustomed to being able to do things like this. Not only using the Shardblade, but being physical. He’d always been afraid of his fits, always worried that a moment of strength would instantly become a moment of invalidity.

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It will be … great … vast … wonderful! Glys said from within Renarin’s heart. It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

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Jasnah moved into the temple, gripping her Shardblade, stepping on slippered feet. The red spren rising from Renarin—like a snowflake made of crystal and light—seemed to sense her and panicked, disappearing into Renarin with a puff.

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But where is his god? Lunamor could see all spren. Prince Renarin had bonded one, except Lunamor had never been able to spot it. He bowed when Renarin wasn’t looking, just in case, and made a sign of reverence to the hidden god.

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“I can see him!” said a voice to her side. Shallan jumped and turned to find Renarin staring at her skirt and the pattern there, which blended into her embroidery. Distinct if you knew to look, but easy to miss. “He doesn’t turn invisible?” Renarin said. “He says he can’t.”

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“It just happened. Glys wasn’t certain he could do it … but we need more people to work the Oathgate … so…”

Renarin has a gemheart. His fits, before he bonded Glys, is most likely various lesser spren inhabiting his gemheart. His body unlike the Listeners can't change which results in fits. Renarin and Glys is not bonded like the other KRs, not the Nahel Bond.

This leads me to think that the Alethi, like the Herdazian and the Horneaters are part Listener. It's been constantly pointed out that they are tall. Now we know their height is not 'normal' and that Shin height are the norm across various planets. 

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“They were taller,” the guard captain added. “Taller than me, easily as tall as you are, Brightlord."


Which means that it could be part of the solution to the Skybreaker oaths and the problem of Rosharan nativity.

Edited by ScavellTane
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1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

Renarin has a gemheart.

Renarin does not have a gemheart. Neither does his spren persistently reside there. Glys goes for it because of the mechanics of bonds with singers, which takes him in the area of Renarin's heart. But nothing in the fragments you are quoting has even the slightest hint that Renarin has a gemheart.

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6 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Renarin does not have a gemheart. Neither does his spren persistently reside there. Glys goes for it because of the mechanics of bonds with singers, which takes him in the area of Renarin's heart. But nothing in the fragments you are quoting has even the slightest hint that Renarin has a gemheart.

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Jasnah moved into the temple, gripping her Shardblade, stepping on slippered feet. The red spren rising from Renarin—like a snowflake made of crystal and light—seemed to sense her and panicked, disappearing into Renarin with a puff.

This is unlike any of the Nahel Bond spren, which do not go into their companion. Which likely means Renarin is not bound by the Oaths. Which may explain why his Regrowth from the Thunderclast attack was so much faster/stronger than Lifts.

Edited by ScavellTane
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45 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

This is unlike any of the Nahel Bond spren, which do not go into their companion. Which likely means Renarin is not bound by the Oaths. Which may explain why his Regrowth from the Thunderclast attack was so much faster/stronger than Lifts.

There are ample examples in the books that different orders which share a surge have it behave differently for each order.  The Truthwatchers first surge is progression and the Edgedancers second surge is progression. That alone explains why Renarin and Lift's regrowth are different.

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I feel like such a drastic change in Renarin's anatomy would have more visible  consequences, or changes.  As we saw with Amaram, it seems to take quite a bit of work, and a lot of physical changes, in order to have a gemheart.

 

Also, the spren only enter/leave the gemheart during a highstorm.

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I don't see a way to biologically make this work. There's some rules that are very consistent with how Stormlight works physiologically speaking, and just substituting in a gemheart wouldn't work. Human Biology is not the same same as native Rosharan biology, and gemhearts are a matter of body chemistry. 

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Questioner:

Is it only Greatshells that have gemhearts, or do all crustaceans on Roshar have some sort of gem inside? If it is only greatshells then are their unique decayspren related to this fact?

Brandon:

It's a matter of body chemistry. Not all crustaceans do have gemhearts, but most can, not just greatshells. It's a matter of their particular body chemistry that lets greatshells grow the larger gemhearts, which is what allows them to grow so large themselves.

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I'm not saying he ingested one, I'm saying he was born with one. Perhaps not with a regular sized Listener gemheart, but a mutation. Large enough for Glys to inhabit.

Listener tradition of going out in the Highstorm is most likely the lesser spren they bond are in the Cognitive Realm and require the Highstorm/Honor's Perpendicularity to transition to the Physical Realm and bond them.

Glys though, is already in the Physical Realm therefore does not need the storms.

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7 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I don't see a way to biologically make this work. There's some rules that are very consistent with how Stormlight works physiologically speaking, and just substituting in a gemheart wouldn't work. Human Biology is not the same same as native Rosharan biology, and gemhearts are a matter of body chemistry. 

 

That's why I postulate that the Alethi is part Parshendi and Renarins gemheart is a mutation. It would be no different than having a benign cancer tumor.

Edited by ScavellTane
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15 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

That's why I postulate that the Alethi is part Parshendi and Renarins gemheart is a mutation. It would be no different than having a benign cancer tumor.

Are you saying he has a separate gemgrowth in his chest, or that his heart has been replaced my a mutation into a gemheart? 

 

With the former, the quote about him being within Renarin's heart doesn't make sense, with the latter, human biology wouldn't allow such a drastic change.

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How drastic would it be really? How large does a gemheart have to be to house a spren even a higher spren?

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Are you saying he has a separate gemgrowth in his chest, or that his heart has been replaced my a mutation into a gemheart? 

 

With the former, the quote about him being within Renarin's heart doesn't make sense, with the latter, human biology wouldn't allow such a drastic change.

His quote that Glys lies within his heart is what prompted this theory. Spren only ever inhabit gemhearts. Why would it go into an organic heart? Sure you could say its a metaphorical thought but I don't believe so.

Edited by ScavellTane
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The races that have interbred with Parshendi have obvious physical characteristics that define them, such as the Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater ability to see spren.  I don't think any Alethi have been described to have any kind of Parshendi characteristics in any of the books, so it seems unlikely that they have enough Parshendi blood in them to cause a mutation such as a gemheart.

 

Also, again, with a gem instead of a heart, there would need to be other physical changes in order to accommodate it, none of which have been indicated.

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Syl zips into Kaladin's head at points and she can manifest enough in the physical to carry a leaf, yet can still turn invisible. Pattern can't turn invisible, but can manifest enough to push locks. We've only ever seen Glys once, so it's not a stretch to assume he doesn't have much of a physical presence and can just chill out where he pleases, especially someplace familiar. It's a matter of habit, not function, at least in my opinion.

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15 minutes ago, RShara said:

The races that have interbred with Parshendi have obvious physical characteristics that define them, such as the Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater ability to see spren.  I don't think any Alethi have been described to have any kind of Parshendi characteristics in any of the books, so it seems unlikely that they have enough Parshendi blood in them to cause a mutation such as a gemheart.

 

Also, again, with a gem instead of a heart, there would need to be other physical changes in order to accommodate it, none of which have been indicated.

The Alethi are 'tall'. Their height are mentioned too often and they are as tall as the Parshendi. The Shin height/shortness are supposedly 'cosmere standard'. Which mean the Alethi are taller than regular people.

To clarify, I'm not saying that Renarins blood pumping heart is mutated into crystal. I'm saying he has a secondary gemheart like the Parshendi.

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Syl zips into Kaladin's head at points and she can manifest enough in the physical to carry a leaf, yet can still turn invisible. Pattern can't turn invisible, but can manifest enough to push locks. We've only ever seen Glys once, so it's not a stretch to assume he doesn't have much of a physical presence and can just chill out where he pleases, especially someplace familiar. It's a matter of habit, not function, at least in my opinion.

But the thing is that all the higher spren of the KR do not go into their companion only Glys. 

Even for Yelig-Nar to go into Amaram, he has to be housed in a gemstone.

Edited by ScavellTane
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The Alethi have valued height for some centuries.  Over that period of time, having taller people isn't unlikely.

And as Obtuse says, Syl zips into Kaladin's head sometimes.  So yes, some of the higher spren of the KR DO go into their companions.

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2 minutes ago, RShara said:

The Alethi have valued height for some centuries.  Over that period of time, having taller people isn't unlikely.

And as Obtuse says, Syl zips into Kaladin's head sometimes.  So yes, some of the higher spren of the KR DO go into their companions.

When has Alethi valued height? I only see them commenting on the Shin's smaller stature and Shallan gripping about their long legs.

I don't recall Syl ever flying through anything.

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13 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

The Alethi are 'tall'. Their height are mentioned too often and they are as tall as the Parshendi. The Shin height/shortness are supposedly 'cosmere standard'. Which mean the Alethi are taller than regular people.

To clarify, I'm not saying that Renarins blood pumping heart is mutated into crystal. I'm saying he has a secondary gemheart like the Parshendi.

But the thing is that all the higher spren of the KR do not go into their companion only Glys. 

Even for Yelig-Nar to go into Amaram, he has to be housed in a gemstone.

I think we don't have enough data points regarding all of the KR spren, as each of them has demonstrated differing behaviors. We'd need to have another Truthspren to observe and compare him to, and even then we're not sure what corruption does to a spren's nature.

Disclaimer: I do not ascribe to the theory of Glys being a Voidspren. I believe that he's a corrupted Truthspren who doesn't really understand what's happened to him. (And I also think that messing with him and the Kholinar Oathgate spren have in turn corrupted Sja-anat enough to turn her from Odium.)

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32 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Syl zips into Kaladin's head at points 

I may be forgetting something, but I seem to recall that Syl only zips into Kaladin's hair to hide within the tassels, not actually into his body. Even then, she only does it for short periods of time. I think that it's odd that Glys seems to permanently reside within Renarin, and could signify something to the effect of Renarin having a gemheart.

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4 minutes ago, Shardigrade said:

I may be forgetting something, but I seem to recall that Syl only zips into Kaladin's hair to hide within the tassels, not actually into his body. Even then, she only does it for short periods of time. I think that it's odd that Glys seems to permanently reside within Renarin, and could signify something to the effect of Renarin having a gemheart.

I might be misremembering as well, but I seem to remember her doing so in WoK or WoR, or at least his chest after he said something that annoyed her. Problem is I don't want to go searching through what has to be every single interaction between them based on that description, so in light of me not being able to provide a quote to back it up we should treat it as not true.

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As Alethi are warriors, height would be a desirable attribute, as it tends to be of value during battles and dominance displays.

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8 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I might be misremembering as well, but I seem to remember her doing so in WoK or WoR, or at least his chest after he said something that annoyed her. Problem is I don't want to go searching through what has to be every single interaction between them based on that description, so in light of me not being able to provide a quote to back it up we should treat it as not true.

FYI, Brandon uses the word "zip" to describe Syl's movements a LOT.

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ScavellTane, isn't your first quote from Dalinars flashback when he takes Rathalas the first time and he confronts Tanalan the younger. When the little boy is trying to defend his father in the secret hideaway? I might be mistaken so I'll have to go back and check once I get home

Edited by Torchwood17
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Nop, It's baby Renarin. Kinda remains me of dull-form. But then its a baby,so...

Edited by ScavellTane
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16 minutes ago, RShara said:

FYI, Brandon uses the word "zip" to describe Syl's movements a LOT.

Probably would have been the better choice to use the present tense when doing the search I did do rather than the past tense, 'zipped.' 

*headdesk*

I burned as much time as I'm willing, trying to track down something that small. 

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I guess it's theoretically possible.  But to me, it seems biologically unlikely.  There aren't any signs that the Alethi have Parshendi blood, like the other races (that DO have Parshendi blood) have, other than height, which can be explained in other ways.  And having a significantly sized piece of hard rock in your chest cavity sounds like it would cause some serious biological issues. 

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