Hyarmenatan

[OB] How do we know who the Azure is?

16 posts in this topic

Hello folks,

what evidence do we have Azure actually is Vivenna? For me, it was not 100% certain. All we know is :

- she can fight with a sword

- knows the same kata Zahel does

- has a variation of awakened sword 

- can awaken her clothes

- is a worldhopper

- came to retrieve Nightblood

EDIT:

- ah, I forgot about Royal Locks. damnation, it leaves only Siri and Vivenna in the contest, so i guess this thread is to be removed...

I agree those are strong points, and it likely indeed IS Vivenna, but I strongly object when this community says it like it is already certain. It could potentially by anyone from Nalthis (only this awakened sword undermines my point really hard). We won't know for sure until she meets Vasher / we get a WoB confirming her identity. Or maybe we have it confirmed already?

Sorry for possible duplication of threads but couldn't find a similar one. 

 

EDIT:

- ah, I forgot about Royal Locks. damnation, it leaves only Siri and Vivenna in the contest, so i guess this thread is to be removed...

 

Edited by Hyarmenatan
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She's a member of the Idrian royal family (her hair changed colour). Since I believe that we know Warbreaker takes place before, but within the same lifetime as the Stormlight archive, we only have three female royals to choose from. Vivenna, Fafen, and Sisirinah. Fafen is a monk, and we know basically nothing about her. Siri is a queen, and is presumably busy with that. What we know of her personality doesn't really fit with Azure either (Siri's arc was in part about accepting her duties and responsibilities).

Then we have Vivenna. Who went from dutiful royal in the beginning of Warbreaker, to eventually deciding to leave with Vasher and not return home to her kingdom (thus making Ridger, the second child, the heir: see her talk with Adolin on the ship). We also know Vivenna is an Awakener, travelled with Vasher (at which point she could've learned the kata) and carried Nightblood for a while, which makes her the most likely candidate for Azure by far.

We also know from a WoB that Vivenna is in Oathbringer and looking for Vasher, which I think removes all doubt:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

What happened to Vivenna?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She's looking for Vasher. Keep your eyes wide open when reading Oathbringer.

 

Edited by Willow
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I mean...

1. Azure is on Roshar looking for a sword made by Vasher

2. She has a similar sword herself

3. As of the end of Warbreaker, there are potentially three people who know how these swords are created: Vasher, Vivenna, and Yesteel. Vivenna is the only woman in that group.

4. Azure trained with the sword and in Awakening with Vasher (says she learned the kata from him, uses Awakened clothing on her arm the same way).

5. Not much time passes between the Warbreaker sequel and Way of Kings (source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87-white-sand-vol1-release-party/#e5657)

6. As Willow points out above, her hair changes color, indicating that she is a member of the Idrian royal family. She also indicates a royal background in conversation with Adolin.

So unless, in the short time between the books, there is another member of the Idrian royal family who also trains with Vasher and who he decides to tell about how to make swords like Nightblood, I'm not sure who else it could possibly be.

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There is also the fact that she uses the same idiom as Zahel, who has been confirmed to be Vasher.  "Like White on Black" (or the inverse, I may have swithced the order)for something obvious, which Vasher has used himself.  Using the colour red to describe anger or Rash behavior.  Much of her idiom uses colour based language, like Zahel.

 

This mixed with the colour shifting hair, the fact that she had traveled Shadesmar from ssomewhere else, has a sword like Nightblood, is hunting Zahel, fights the same way he does, wrapped a cloak around her arm to awaken it and use as a shield in battle (like Vasher), and is confirmed to be in Oathbringer if you look for her doesn't leave much in the way of options for who she could be.

 

What I really want to see is her journey from Vivenna the Awakener at the end of Warbreaker, who was going off to discover herself, to Vivenna the leader, as we see her in Kholinar.  That is a journey that cannot have been easy.

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6 hours ago, Stark said:

There is also the fact that she uses the same idiom as Zahel, who has been confirmed to be Vasher.  "Like White on Black" (or the inverse, I may have swithced the order)for something obvious, which Vasher has used himself.  Using the colour red to describe anger or Rash behavior.  Much of her idiom uses colour based language, like Zahel.

 

To piggyback off of this theme about using colors in language as a clue, i think the name "Azure" actually means blue. That would seem an appropriate chosen name for someone from Nalthis and would hint at it being Vivenna since WOB said she was in Oathbringer.

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2 minutes ago, gbazz4 said:

To piggyback off of this theme about using colors in language as a clue, i think the name "Azure" actually means blue. That would seem an appropriate chosen name for someone from Nalthis and would hint at it being Vivenna since WOB said she was in Oathbringer.

Azure is indeed a type of bright blue (it's really pretty too!). I completely missed it on my first readthrough (listen-through), since I thought the narrator was saying 'Azur', oops. The WoB is our biggest piece of evidence here, since Hyarmenatan wanted to know why Azure is specifically Vivenna, instead of just an Awakener from Nalthis. The colours aren't really conclusive, since most people from Nalthis probably use colour idioms (like Zahel). I think it's the hair changing and the WoB combination that confirmed it for most people.

 

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When they attack the palace:

Quote

“That’s going to be crimson to break,” Azure said. “We’ll fight for every inch.”

I knew immediately she is from Nalthis. I haven't caught her hair changing color but at that moment it was pretty clear it's Vivenna.

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There's also the Law of Conservation of Characters. If there are many characters a person can be, Occam's razor suggests that it's the most well-known.

Even if all we knew was that Azure was an Awakener from Warbreaker looking for Zahel, I think that would be enough to conclude she is Vivenna due to narrative causality. Why would Brandon use a different character when an existing character can already fulfil his purpose?

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Also consider that she describes how she ran away from her responsibilities sound like someone we know? That coupled with her confirmation that she knows Zahel/Vasher plus the locks plus the strange shardblade plus the circumstantial color evidence and awakening knowledge seems pretty open and shut.

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22 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

I agree those are strong points, and it likely indeed IS Vivenna, but I strongly object when this community says it like it is already certain. It could potentially by anyone from Nalthis (only this awakened sword undermines my point really hard). We won't know for sure until she meets Vasher / we get a WoB confirming her identity. Or maybe we have it confirmed already?

This is basically what they teach in reading classes as "context." You are meant to infer something by surrounding text, not just directly. It's a way to circumvent obvious exposition, which tends to feel like an unrealistic information dump. 

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10 minutes ago, masaru said:

This is basically what they teach in reading classes as "context." You are meant to infer something by surrounding text, not just directly. It's a way to circumvent obvious exposition, which tends to feel like an unrealistic information dump. 

Or 'trolling'. Brandon might be as well trolling us all. He said to 'keep an eye for Vivenna' in OB, but Azure is not someone you could skip or not notice - she is so obviously Nalthian awakener, swordmaster etc. You don't need to search for her as it's one of the secondary characters for 1/4 of the book. I imagined that Vivenna's appearence would be so slight like a Paliah in Paleneum or Terriswoman nurse in WB. Azure is screaming I AM VIVENNA. That's why I feel a troll's scent now.  

But, likely, it unfortunately is Vivenna after all. Sad.

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1 minute ago, Hyarmenatan said:

But, likely, it unfortunately is Vivenna after all. Sad.

Why is it sad? I liked Azure. If you don't know it's Vivenna, she's a mysterious bounty hunter connected to Szeth's weird sword (and to Vasher, who now gets more backstory), who tells us more about the different varieties of Shardblades and helps us navigate the Cognitive Realm and suggests there might be characters who come from other planets. If you do know she's Vivenna, then you can ponder the mystery of how she went from Vivenna at the end of Warbreaker to Azure.

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11 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Or 'trolling'. Brandon might be as well trolling us all. He said to 'keep an eye for Vivenna' in OB, but Azure is not someone you could skip or not notice - she is so obviously Nalthian awakener, swordmaster etc. You don't need to search for her as it's one of the secondary characters for 1/4 of the book. I imagined that Vivenna's appearence would be so slight like a Paliah in Paleneum or Terriswoman nurse in WB. Azure is screaming I AM VIVENNA. That's why I feel a troll's scent now.  

But, likely, it unfortunately is Vivenna after all. Sad.

I’m really confused. What is trolling about it? And why is it sad?

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7 hours ago, masaru said:

What is trolling about it? And why is it sad?

Trolling since we were supposed to look for her as per WoB, like it would be a challenge to find Vivenna. It was not. Everyone who knows who V is would have guessed that with an ease.  

That's precisely why i'm sad - no mistery, no debates here on 17thShard, No wondering 'where could we find her'. It's almost not like what Brandon does, to give something for his readers so obviously. He used to hint at things, not to hit us in da face with a brick. That's why I'm not 100% happy about how Vivenna was introduced into SA.  

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Maybe he changed his mind and wanted to give her a new role in the book. I'm just baffled at the arc of your criticisms about this, I guess. Originally it was that you weren't convinced it was her and 17S shouldn't act like it was certain. Then posters gave you evidence that made it certain and you now say it's too obvious. Sorry if this is harsh, but that doesn't seem consistent, so maybe there's something else about Vivenna being in the book that is bugging you.

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On 11/29/2017 at 8:20 PM, Nathrangking said:

Also consider that she describes how she ran away from her responsibilities sound like someone we know? That coupled with her confirmation that she knows Zahel/Vasher plus the locks plus the strange shardblade plus the circumstantial color evidence and awakening knowledge seems pretty open and shut.

Yeah, the one who ran away from her royal responsibility to a someone who better fits is definitely Vivienna. Siri doesn't fit this.

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