[OB] I-missed-it-on-the-first-read little goodies in Oathbringer

[Ailvara]

I immensely enjoy all those bits of mirroring, foreshadowing and other kinds of relatively tiny things that are not essential to the main narrative, but are all the more interesting while easy to miss. And I think many of you do as well, so I've thought, if you have found something interesting, but not necessarily relating to any "big" thread, post it here for everyone who could have missed it!

One of the things that I really enjoyed is how similar seemed to me these two quotes from Kaladin and Dalinar:

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Three men bearing their son's name had lived and died in that time. The soldier who had been forged in Amaram's army. The slave, so bitter and angry. His parents had never met Captain Kaladin, bodyguard to the most powerful man in Roshar.

And then... there was the next man, the man he was becoming. A man who owned the skies and spoke ancient oaths. Five years have passed. And four lifetimes.

 

 

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It seemed that Dalinar had been four people in his life. The bloodlusty warrior, who killed wherever he was pointed, and the consequences could go to Damnation.

The general, who had feigned distinguished civility - when secretly, he'd longed to get back on the battlefield so he could shed more blood.

Third, the broken man. The one who paid for the actions of the youth.

Then finally, the fourth man: most false of them all. The man who had given up his memories so he could pretend to be something better.

 

I don't know if it's intentional, or a natural consequence of character development (in that case, it still highlights how much character development we got there). But I like how these correspond to each other and also to Shallan's struggles, bringing all our three mains characters together in this.

[digitalbusker]

On a similar note: I started a Way of Kings reread after finishing Oathbringer, and came across Lirin telling Kaladin he couldn't kill to protect, and comparing that to "trying to stop a storm by blowing harder".

Which Kaladin does, kinda, in Oathbringer.

[Khyrindor]

If you reread the Prologue of Oathbringer, in one of the first paragraphs, Eshonai says she expected humans to be dark formless monsters, as the old songs indicated. This foreshadows the reveal that humans were really the original Voidbringers.

[Matt Snow]

I already posted this in the general reactions thread, but even "superevil" Dalinar (or as I like to call him Blackthorn!Dalinar) claimed that he was the one who made the choices to kill the people he killed.

Kalanor tells him that he like so many other men blame/ascribe their kills/horrible acts to the Almighty but Blackthorn!Dalinar tells him:

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"They better not belong to him!" Dalinar said. "I worked hard for those kills Kalanor. The Almighty can't have them; he can merely credit them when weighing my soul!"

Which I think echos Bondsmith!Dalinar refusing to blame Odium for killing his wife.

[IntentAwesome]

Just came across this one, from one of Taravangian's early conversations with Dalinar:

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"Taravangian nodded to himself. 'Where do we attack first? Herdaz? My aides say it is the traditional first step for an Alethi aggression, but they also point out that if you could somehow take Thaylenah, you'd completely control the Straits and even the Depths."

Huh. Thaylenah. Who knew?

Mr T and that diagram, at it again.

Edited November 28, 2017 by IntentAwesome

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I really enjoyed this piece of foreshadowing. We're supposed to think Glys wasn't certain he could make a Blade when really he's not certain he can work the Oathgate, and having his blade be forged as if of multiple metals to represent the conflicting investiture is just a great touch.

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“It just happened. Glys wasn’t certain he could do it … but we need more people to work the Oathgate … so…”

He took a deep breath, then stretched his hand to the side and summoned a long glowing Shardblade. Thin, with almost no crossguard, it had waving folds to the metal, like it had been forged.

I've kicked myself in the head so many times this book for how little attention I've paid Renarin up until now.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Ookla of Daybreak

[Stairdweller]

I found the similarity between Sadeas's viewpoint in Words of Radiance - when he laments that battle us the only time he feels alive - eerily similar to the way Dalinar feels in some of his flashbacks. Thrill addiction is rough.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, Stairdweller said:

I found the similarity between Sadeas's viewpoint in Words of Radiance - when he laments that battle us the only time he feels alive - eerily similar to the way Dalinar feels in some of his flashbacks. Thrill addiction is rough.

i think the similarity run more deeper. 

“Passion,” Odium said. “There is great Passion here.” Venli felt cold. “I’ve prepared these men for decades,” Odium said. “Men who want nothing so much as something to break, to gain vengeance against the one who killed their highprince. Let the singers watch and learn. I’ve prepared a different army to fight for us today.”

Oathbringer Chapter 115 "The Wrong Passion"

decades, long before the battle in the shattered plain, Odium had shape the highprince seades and his army and throw them against dalinar after the death of gavilar.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Fulminato

[Awesomness]

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“She smiled, then glanced over her shoulder toward the troops with red eyes.
“Go,” he said. “I’ll be fine. Save the city. Be Radiant, Shallan.”
She kissed him, then turned and stood. ”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

I don't think it is foreshadowing, but it is confusing in many levels.

Also:

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“Was I supposed to save those soldiers, sword-nimi?” Szeth said. “I am a Radiant now.”
I think they would have flown like you instead of falling down, if they’d wanted to be saved.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

Nightblood has its own way of interpreting this whole thing about responsibility.

[Randall Thor]

On 11/27/2017 at 5:53 PM, Ookla the Busker said:

On a similar note: I started a Way of Kings reread after finishing Oathbringer, and came across Lirin telling Kaladin he couldn't kill to protect, and comparing that to "trying to stop a storm by blowing harder".

Which Kaladin does, kinda, in Oathbringer.

This is actually an angle I haven't seen discussed as to why Kaladin can't speak the Fourth Ideal. His uncertainty begins when the Listeners, the Wall Guard, and Moash (Bridge Four) all collide at the Kholin palace. He's afraid of what the oath might "ask of him" on the Honorspren ship. He thinks about all of his fallen comrades, and finally Tien, when he decides that he can't speak the Words in Shadesmar. What if the Fourth Ideal has to do with hurting people you want to protect, in order to protect others?

Edited November 29, 2017 by Randall Thor
added bold for emphasis

[ggscv]

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“When I watched men play, they used this card rarely. If it is so powerful, why delay?”
“If your king gets captured, you lose,” Kaladin said. “So you only play him if you’re desperate or if you are certain you can defend him. Half the times I’ve played, I left him in my barrack all game.”

Not sure how relevant this quote is but I did note it down during my first read, before knowing that Elhokar would die. To a certain extent it foreshadows his death but not exactly.

Here's a bonus quote from a WoR epigraph that has been bugging me, maybe someone can make light of it using the new OB knowledge that we have.

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"Our gods were born splinters of a soul, / Of one who seeks to take control, / Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. / They are his spren, his gift, his price. / But the nightforms speak of future life, / A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite." Song of Secrets, final stanza

Our gods were born splinters of a soul = Adonalsium

Of one who seeks to take control, / Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. / They are his spren, his gift, his price. = Likely Odium

A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite. = Talking about Odium's champion? But what does "A strife even he must requite" mean?

Edited November 29, 2017 by ggscv

[ScavellTane]

1 hour ago, ggscv said:

Our gods were born splinters of a soul = Adonalsium

Of one who seeks to take control, / Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. / They are his spren, his gift, his price. = Likely Odium

A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite. = Talking about Odium's champion? But what does "A strife even he must requite" mean?

Our gods are born splinters of a soul. (The Unmade(?))

Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. (Odium)

They are his spren, his gift, his price. (Again The Unmade(?) or perhaps just higher voidspren in general)

[Bacon]

It makes sense why I wouldn't have paid attention in hindsight, but I totally missed Dalinar getting hammered with Jezrien the first time through.

[Stark]

9 hours ago, Randall Thor said:

What if the Fourth Ideal has to do with hurting people you want to protect, in order to protect others?

I've actually begun to suspect, especially with all the talk about about how Kaladin spends so much time wallowing on those he could not protect (Anyone who died - Tien, his old squad, bridge four, Elhokar, the singers he walked with), or trying to protect where he isn't wanted (Laral) I think his fourth ideal is going to be more difficult for him.

 

Something like:

I will trust those who are capable to protect themselves.

I will accept that I cannot protect everyone.

I will trust others to protect me 

I will respect the decisions of those I wish to protect, even if it means withdrawing my protection, so that they can learn to protect themselves.

 

Basically, I think it will come down to something about teaching others to protect themselves, and actually letting them do it, while accepting that they are responsible for their own choices.  That whole teach a person fire, rather than giving it.  He will have to acknowledge that he can only be in one place at one time, and eventually will have to accept that if he does not teach people to stand on their own and protect themselves, he will never be able to protect everyone he wants to.  And part of accepting that will be understanding that letting people protect themselves may end in some unavoidable deaths.

 

This will be really difficult for him to accept, and I think that is why he is having so much trouble with the fourth ideal.

[Fulminato]

21 hours ago, ggscv said:

A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite. = Talking about Odium's champion? But what does "A strife even he must requite" mean?

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain.

WotK Chapter 75 "IN THE TOP ROOM"

the rules all the shards must follow, even odium cannot ignore them.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Fulminato

[Stormfather-in-Law]

19 hours ago, Randall Thor said:

This is actually an angle I haven't seen discussed as to why Kaladin can't speak the Fourth Ideal. His uncertainty begins when the Listeners, the Wall Guard, and Moash (Bridge Four) all collide at the Kholin palace. He's afraid of what the oath might "ask of him" on the Honorspren ship. He thinks about all of his fallen comrades, and finally Tien, when he decides that he can't speak the Words in Shadesmar. What if the Fourth Ideal has to do with hurting people you want to protect, in order to protect others?

Hmm...

“My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don’t think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?
—From drawer 10-12, sapphire”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer.” 

[sonwarrior01]

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Basically, I think it will come down to something about teaching others to protect themselves, and actually letting them do it, while accepting that they are responsible for their own choices. 

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"You have to learn when to care son," Lirin said softly. "And when to let go." -end of Chapter 20 in "The Way Of Kings"

My theory is that Sanderson gave us the fourth oath in TWoK. Kaladin will have to learn to "let go" of those he cannot save. Although I don't think it will take the form of callouses like Lirin was saying. 

Maybe something along the lines of, "I will let go of former allies to protect those I have now." I feel this would work well with the idea of Honor spren being very intent on what their current duty is.  

[ScavellTane]

Kaladin's father will fuel his 4th Ideal. Lirin will remain in Hearthstone and possibly die.

[Randall Thor]

22 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Kaladin's father will fuel his 4th Ideal. Lirin will remain in Hearthstone and possibly die.

I think you're right – Sanderson's been teasing it, with Kaladin constantly thinking about convincing his family to abandon Hearthstone and move to Urithiru. His father will want to stay and help the other villagers in a crisis and Kaladin will have to watch him die. Or, attain the Fourth Ideal in a death-defying moment to save his father... But it does seem like the Windrunner's Fourth Ideal has to have some element of sacrifice to it. Will he have to leave his father behind to protect others?

[ScavellTane]

He is going to have to choose between his mother/brother and his father.

[A Dopey Spren]

On 11/29/2017 at 2:43 PM, Bacon said:

It makes sense why I wouldn't have paid attention in hindsight, but I totally missed Dalinar getting hammered with Jezrien the first time through.

When was this!? I completely missed it!

[Blazenella]

On 11/29/2017 at 8:18 AM, ScavellTane said:

Our gods are born splinters of a soul. (The Unmade(?))

Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. (Odium)

They are his spren, his gift, his price. (Again The Unmade(?) or perhaps just higher voidspren in general)

THE FUSED ARE THE LISTENER GODS!!!!!!!!!!

 

I've had a bit of a theory for a while now that I'm going to get out.

Our gods are born splinters of a soul. ( When Venli speaks to the Fused, they refer to Honors death/splintering as if they were there)

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"We killed him, but his power lives on in his surgebinders"

This could mean that either the Fused are partially from Honor or their part in killing him gave them power. Another point to this is that Sja-Anat says this

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" We were made, then unmade"

I personally think that means they were from Honor, but Odium corrupted them.

So, what if the Listeners/Unmade/Fused were from Honor, but were later corrupted by Odium. We have to also consider the fact that the Listeners used to bond with spren from Honor (As Venli is showing), but then as the Listeners put it " Were betrayed". What if they were corrupted by Odium forcing the spren to stop bonding with them, and the Listeners saw this as betrayal. 

[Noblehunter]

Could the unmade have been the Dawnshards? Other shards turned out to actually be spren, so why not the Dawnshards?

[Ryder]

One thing I noticed on my second pass through was Taravangian foreshadowing Dalinar's third oath when they're discussing morality and the responsibility of leadership in chapter 86.

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He closed his eyes. “Someone has to fall, that others may stand.”

The words were similar to things Dalinar had said, and thought, for years. Yet Taravangian’s version was somehow twisted, lacking hope or life.

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“I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”

In my mind this cements Taravangian as an anti-Dalinar, for now at least.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 11/29/2017 at 8:43 AM, Bacon said:

It makes sense why I wouldn't have paid attention in hindsight, but I totally missed Dalinar getting hammered with Jezrien the first time through.

Dalinar even teases at it: in his Stormfather vision of Aharietiam he thinks Jezrien looks strangely familiar...