Toaster Retribution

[OB] My problem with Jasnah

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I believe Jasnah was proven to be right in her interactions with Kaladin and Shallan. She pointed to Kaladin's hesitation in making sacrifices to win, and he ended up freezing in combat, which led to the worst possible outcome of everybody dying. She treated Shallan as still needing to learn and not to skip basics, and Shallan proved herself ignorant and shallow in her grasp of situation in Kholinar, leading to torment and death of those she tried to help. I think she's not very good at expressing herself to people, but I think Shallan was right, when she said, that most infuriating thing about Jasnah is how she is always right.   

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13 hours ago, RShara said:

10 people who she believes are traitors to humankind and Honor, no less.

I doubt Jasnah thinks the Heralds are traitors to humanity. As anyone that thinks that 10 people are traitors to humanity for only been capable of holding back the end of the world and the complete destruction of Roshar for ~6000 years instead of forever is not too logical. Even the Stormfather, the biggest remaining piece of Honor admits the Heralds were quite impressive and the closest beings to honorable in the world.

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

Jasnah = sacrifice the Heralds to lock away the Voidbringers again. 

Taravangian = sacrifice whatever is needed to make sure humanity survives. 

Problem is both their thinking is flawed. Sometimes, when taking such drastic measures they should follow the next step of thought. Even if the Oathpact still worked and if by some miracle a Herald in Damnation means no Desolation in Roshar the Heralds are in such great shape that they would likely break before the Voidbringers could heat up the iron pokers. As for T...tough break, but humanity is already saved. There are dozens of other worlds where humans are thriving, so no, he isn't going to save his race, because humanity doesn't need saving. What needs saving is his world. Very different.

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Also, Kal absolutely insults Jasnah in their meeting. She discusses a plan and he says: “woman, are you insane?” I tell you, if a man said that to me, I’d react more immediately and strongly than Jasnah did! Particularly if my particular strength was logic, and my particular fear was losing control of my brain.

also, let’s not pretend that Kal doesn’t also insult and talk down to every light eyes he meets. Even Adolin, the nicest dude in the kingdom. Yes, he learns, but he’s not exactly accommodating to those he thinks are morally beneath him. Jasnah has been belittled, ostracized, and watched her father die in front of her eyes. She trudged through Shadesmar, alone. She was the only one seeking the truth of the Voidbringers before this started, and has bonded a spren long before Kal did. And he treats her like a “woman”. Of course she’s mad! But she holds it together. Mostly. ;-)

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@RShara

Actually, as far as we know, Amaram hasn't killed anyone except for Kaladins three spearmen, (and random enemies on the battlefield) and that wasn't because they disagreed with him. He generally appears polite even with those who dislike him, and who he disagrees with (with an exception for Jasnah). King T mostly kills because he has to in order to fulfill the Diagram, or to cover himself from threats. His douchiness when smart can probably be blamed on the Noghtwatcher as much as on himself. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@RShara

Actually, as far as we know, Amaram hasn't killed anyone except for Kaladins three spearmen, (and random enemies on the battlefield) and that wasn't because they disagreed with him. He generally appears polite even with those who dislike him, and who he disagrees with (with an exception for Jasnah). King T mostly kills because he has to in order to fulfill the Diagram, or to cover himself from threats. His douchiness when smart can probably be blamed on the Noghtwatcher as much as on himself. 

 

 

I mean, those three spearman were a pretty darn big deal, though! A most pertinent betrayal, and for his own sake: he murdered them in cold blood so he could take the spoils. You can identify with his reasons—sacrifice a few darkeyes for the good of the kingdom, or rather, as his guilty look to Kal in that moment confirms, for his own adulation and edification, but I’m just finding it hard to justify being a fan of his but not finding Jasnah cold, i guess. 

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Just now, Bliev said:

I mean, those three spearman were a pretty darn big deal, though! A most pertinent betrayal, and for his own sake: he murdered them in cold blood so he could take the spoils. You can identify with his reasons—sacrifice a few darkeyes for the good of the kingdom, or rather, as his guilty look to Kal in that moment confirms, for his own adulation and edification, but I’m just finding it hard to justify being a fan of his but not finding Jasnah cold, i guess. 

I actually think that it is unfair to say that Amaram did it for himself only. Restares had to talk him into doing what he did. 

I also think that Jasnah and Amaram are cold in different ways. The Jasnah-coldness that bother me is more her extremely logical and efficient approach to everything. It feels a bit more like a machine than a human, almost. Her entire world is based on research and science. I don't think that that is wrong, and I don't say that it makes her a bad person (it doesn't). It just makes it hard for me to relate to her.

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5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The Jasnah-coldness that bother me is more her extremely logical and efficient approach to everything.

Well have to read her backstory, but I was under the impression that her lunacy as a child made her that way. She relies extremely on logic. In a way, I think she's not as confident as she seems, she just built an army of logic arguments to sustain herself.

Quote

“Have you ever wondered how it would feel to lose your sanity, Ivory?”

“Ivory nodded. “I have wondered this. How could I not? Considering what the ancient fathers are.”
“You call me logical,” Jasnah whispered. “It’s untrue, as I let my passions rule me as much as many. In my times of peace, however, my mind has always been the one thing I could rely upon.”
Except once.
She shook her head, picking up the paper again. “I fear losing that, Ivory. It terrifies me. How would it have felt, to be these Heralds? To suffer your mind slowly becoming untrustworthy? Are they too far gone to know? Or are there lucid moments, where they strain and sort through memories … trying frantically to decide which are reliable and which are fabrications…”
She shivered.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

 

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

 

Also, Kal absolutely insults Jasnah in their meeting.

 

I didn´t see it as an insult, just a reaction to what she was saying in line with his moral codes (that are exactly opposite to what Jasnah is suggesting). Jasnah´s idea may be a solution, it may be better than other options, but it is not a Good nor honorable. She is probably able to sustain it logically, but I personally don't buy it.

She is right, though, that some sacrifice will have to be done.

The beauty of SA is in its complexity, and BS makes a great job addressing and confronting different moral philosophies :)

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When it comes to relationship between Shallan and Jasnah I think it’s also important that even though Shallan have grown and started to be independent and stuff she didn’t really progress as a scholar. And the whole point of wardship is that Shallan becomes a scholar. Sure maybe she’s quite a good Radiant ( which isn’t really true, I mean she’s good at Lightweaving but nothing else she has problems with Soulcasting and her sanity) but Jasnah is still her mentor when it comes to scholarship and she just acts upon it. Teacher cannot treat their students differently because they’re important people. I believe that if Shallan told her she doesn’t want to be a scholar anymore, Jasnah would be okay with finnishing her wardship and offered her to teach her Soulcasting. But Shallan is still her ward, so it’s normal that she vibes her typical tasks such as talking notes from a meeting ( and we can see that Shallan really needs to work on that).

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Everybody has their preference, and I'm not going to argue this any more.  But I prefer the rational, decent person who shows compassion, than the emotional, pleasant-seeming, immoral person who executes people because they get in his way.

I just feel you're falling for words rather than actions, and for reputation rather than character.

 

T and his Diagram are the definition of calculated, mechanical.  Moreover, he follows it even after it's been proven wrong, and doesn't care how many innocent lives are destroyed along the way.

Amaram claims he's trying to do good, but it's all self-serving, calculated to enhance his own reputation and power.

They will both say nice words to your face and then stab you in the back or kill you in the dark.

Edited by RShara
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I'll just real quick defend Amaram, and say that I doubt that he is as selfish as people think he is. I think Amaram legitimately believes that a Vorin ruled society is best for everyone. A lot of religious people, both real and fictional, place import in saving the souls of others. I think Amaram is onto something similar. Anyhow, he most likely believes that the world would be better off ruled by the church. He has to be talked into stealing Kaladins Blade, he is often trying to unite people toward the common enemy, he mourns the losses his actions will cause, and he even loses a close friendship, all for this goal. Amarams actions are those of a fanatic. While there is no denying that he wants to show off and prove himself, I think that he also harbors a wish to create better lives for humans. 

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6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I'll just real quick defend Amaram, and say that I doubt that he is as selfish as people think he is. I think Amaram legitimately believes that a Vorin ruled society is best for everyone. A lot of religious people, both real and fictional, place import in saving the souls of others. I think Amaram is onto something similar. Anyhow, he most likely believes that the world would be better off ruled by the church. He has to be talked into stealing Kaladins Blade, he is often trying to unite people toward the common enemy, he mourns the losses his actions will cause, and he even loses a close friendship, all for this goal. Amarams actions are those of a fanatic. While there is no denying that he wants to show off and prove himself, I think that he also harbors a wish to create better lives for humans. 

Up until the moment he realised his religion was a lie and decided to help wipe out humanity instead ?

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21 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Up until the moment he realised his religion was a lie and decided to help wipe out humanity instead ?

Don't remind me :-(

To keep on defending him, I would say that he was crushed by his guilt, as well as manipulated by Odium. The same thing almost happened to Dalinar. 

Also, as far as I understood it, he didn't voluntarily get corrupted by a Voidspren at the beginning of the Battle of Thaylen City. So if that hadn't happened, I imagine he'd have fought for Roshar in that fight.

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He chose to give  himself over to Odium.  He could have refused like Dalinar did, but he didn't.

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6 minutes ago, RShara said:

He chose to give  himself over to Odium.  He could have refused like Dalinar did, but he didn't.

I'm not sure of the mechanics surrounding this, but I have a hard time seeing all the Sadeas soldiers willingly submitting to Odium. And refusing wasn't easy. Dalinar almost fell for it, and part of why he handled it was because of his pruning by Cultivation, and the fact that he had stuff left to fight for. No one cared to support Amaram as far as we know, and his own allies hated him. Submitting to Odium was wrong, but it is understandable considering the circumstances. And everyone ain't as strong as Dalinar, or Jasnah for that part.

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15 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, as far as I understood it, he didn't voluntarily get corrupted by a Voidspren at the beginning of the Battle of Thaylen City. So if that hadn't happened, I imagine he'd have fought for Roshar in that fight.

But he did that for power. Because he was arrogant enough to believe that he was the only one who could “save” the world and then when it became clear that he was not, he chose power over Honor. Just as he did Way back on the battlefield with Kal’s soldiers.

and if he did think that he was better because he was Vorin, etc., howis this perceived supremacy okay in his case, but not in Jasnah’s? You said you didn’t like how she treated people she deemed “beneath” her, but amaram was willing to kill those “beneath” him, not just condescend to them.

Edited by Bliev
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15 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, as far as I understood it, he didn't voluntarily get corrupted by a Voidspren at the beginning of the Battle of Thaylen City.

I could believe that for the common soldiers, but judging from Amaram's later interaction with Odium, it is clear he had made some kind of deal.

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13 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I'm not sure of the mechanics surrounding this, but I have a hard time seeing all the Sadeas soldiers willingly submitting to Odium. And refusing wasn't easy. Dalinar almost fell for it, and part of why he handled it was because of his pruning by Cultivation, and the fact that he had stuff left to fight for. No one cared to support Amaram as far as we know, and his own allies hated him. Submitting to Odium was wrong, but it is understandable considering the circumstances. And everyone ain't as strong as Dalinar, or Jasnah for that part.

If that were true, then Dalinar's forces would also have been corrupted, since they were there too.  And I'm pretty sure no one forced him to swallow Yelignar's orb.

It kind of baffles me how you're so willing to make excuses for rather despicable actions by the men while holding Jasnah to task for being blunt.

 

Not to mention, the whole, "It's not my fault" thing is a large part of why they WERE corruptible by Odium.

Edited by RShara
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Jasnah is my favorite character that I completely disagree with on nearly everything. 

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On 11/25/2017 at 7:00 PM, Humpty said:

I too am a Jasnah fan I like the fact that she is not afraid of anything and is willing to let people know. I also think there was more to that Kaladin Jasnah exchange than first meets the eye. I am very happy Kaladin has moved on from the mentally unstable,  I think he and Jasnah compliment each other a lot better than Shallan does.  Jasnah can learn empathy from Kaladin since she doesn't seem to have enough of it and I think she will learn the dangers of a brillant mind lacking compassion. Mean-while I think Kaladin can learn more about caring a little less from her. At the end of the scene if you look close she does give Kaladin a smile.  For any other person that might as well be a passionate kiss.  I have called it for years Jasnah and Kaladin are the perfect team.

#jasnadin?

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6 minutes ago, Ironeyes said:

#jasnadin?

Noooooo

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I'll just real quick defend Amaram, and say that I doubt that he is as selfish as people think he is. I think Amaram legitimately believes that a Vorin ruled society is best for everyone. A lot of religious people, both real and fictional, place import in saving the souls of others. I think Amaram is onto something similar. Anyhow, he most likely believes that the world would be better off ruled by the church. He has to be talked into stealing Kaladins Blade, he is often trying to unite people toward the common enemy, he mourns the losses his actions will cause, and he even loses a close friendship, all for this goal. Amarams actions are those of a fanatic. While there is no denying that he wants to show off and prove himself, I think that he also harbors a wish to create better lives for humans. 

I guess I can't really see why you dislike Jasnah so much...  I don't think Amaram is an easy character to defend, but here you pull out the best parts out of him and flesh out his character really well. It's not easy to see the good side (and understand) a character which is fairly despicable and who our main characters hate.  I know you mentioned upthread that you find Jasnah cold and the opposite of you, but I imagine (hopefully?) that Amaram is pretty different from you as well.  I guess I don't see why it is hard to find the good parts of her as well, like you did for Amaram.  Or is it just that you don't understand why everyone likes her so much and you aren't a huge fan?

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10 minutes ago, RShara said:

Noooooo

XD XD XD

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Jasnah is almost always right, but she is not infallible and she recognizes this as we get her viewpoint. On the points of her treatement of kaladin and shallan, she is also right. Kaladin is still growing and although I think he is much more competent then he has ever been he dtill has growing to do as evidence by him knowing the words of the 4th idealbut not being able to commit to them just yet, he is grown a lot but compared to Jasnah Kholin? Well, we all saw her with her soulcasting abilities, we know of her immaculate scholarship and she seems very self-aware and is truly human, capable of compassion when she deems it is needed, if anything I believe Oathbringer solidifies her humanity. As to her treatment of Shallan and not releasing her from her warship, I believethis to be wholly justified, but I am pretty sure Jasnah struggles with this as well in one of her viewpoints (I'll have to reread). Shallan is the least self aware of all the characters and has difficulty knowing who her true self is at all amongst her aspects. She grows a lot by the end of the book but is still seems to be the one most damaged and grappliny for stability and something solid to grab onto.

I loved Jasnah Kolin from book 1, so I clearlyhold a bias and of course some things are subjective. I love that she is a nearly unstoppable, soulcasting, killing machine and we got a taste of that with her slaughtering the would be theives in book 1 but in OB she goes full on!(Asha'man... Kill! #wheeloftimeanyone)

Her and Szeth equipped with sword-nimi would be my choice of ay agaisnt all others! All hail the Queen!

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The one thing about Jasnah that bothered me was her calling Kaladin "Bridgeboy".  It's fine for Adolin to o it, or even any of the others that were there.  But Jasnah not only never saw Kaladin as a Bridgemen, but never saw the bridge men in general.  Literally by the point in time that Jasnah meets him, he has personslly saved Dalinar, Elkohar, and Adolin (her family) all at least one a piece,  plus saved Shallan in the Chasms although the full story of that may not have been known, he fought off and then beat the Assasin in White, recovered an Honor Blade, re-founded a Knights Radiant order and had dozens of squires, was the bodyguard to the king and was invited to all of their elite councils when he wasn't the single person out running missions for the people trapped in Uruthiru.

 

For her to resort to calling him "Bridgeboy" and meaning it as an insult just felt completely out of character for her as to be almost jarring to me.

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I believe she called him “bridgeman”, and also “captain”, but never “bridgeboy”. Which is an interesting mix of respect and insult. And after he called her “woman” and “insane”. With that said, yes, she does have a temper when crossed. For better or for worse.

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