Toaster Retribution

[OB] My problem with Jasnah

136 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

 

Jasnah: Sacrifice ten people to save mankind.

Taravangian: Sacrifice thousands to save mankind.

Amaram (why not?) Sacrifice four to save many. 

The difference lies in the numbers only, as far as I can see. 

I said i have no morality issue with this, yes if you know for sure that sacrificing ten people will save mankind go for it, unless you believe your clear conscience is worth the extinction of your species. With that in mind, numbers matter to the extent that you'll try to save as many as you can with as little cost as possible.

Amaram is different because his motives aren't quite pure, you can't put someone who was aiming to start the desolation to somehow grant power to the church (and himself by extension) on the same boat as people doing what they can to survive.

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The second point you raised did annoy me. Not only because Shallan had earned more respect than she got, but because it was a waste of resources. Like when Dalinar brought Navani and Jasnah in, but completely ignored the possibility of bringing Shallan. Not really smart considering Shallan could well be the one to get the best info out of the visions by drawing out the possible spren, voidbringers, etc and making her drawings public to all the army. 

If there is one thing I hate is wasted potential and wasting resources. Everyone suddenly wasting the resource that is Shallan was...a waste.

But Jasnah ended up redeeming herself for that mistake in Part Two with her actions at the end. If she becomes more self-aware in the future. Because using Shallan how she was doing at the start was like taking a Stradivarius and having no clue what you have in your hands,, so giving it to an apprentice to practice.

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11 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Good point. Her being cold is not really why I dislike her though. It is just one of the reasons as for why I have a hard time relating to her, but I wouldn't say that it is a flaw.

The parshmen have been enslaved for 4,000 years, and the humans stole their home (it is implied that Jasnah knew that by then). The Heralds were basically tortured for eternity. Those are sound reasons to feel compassion. 

Again:  Right now, the Parshendi are actively trying to kill her people.  The Heralds deliberately betrayed their oaths.  I'm sure she'd be fine with a truce, if that were possible.  But with the Fused forcing the Parshendi on, it's not.

The Heralds are basically traitors to her.  Why should she have compassion for people who betrayed their oaths?

 

You call Jasnah cold and calculating, but you're okay with Amaram and T, both of whom are willing to sacrifice *innocent, harmless* people for their supposed selflessness?  Sorry, I don't get why you like them but not Jasnah, who only wants to stop active enemies?

 

9 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The second point you raised did annoy me. Not only because Shallan had earned more respect than she got, but because it was a waste of resources. Like when Dalinar brought Navani and Jasnah in, but completely ignored the possibility of bringing Shallan. Not really smart considering Shallan could well be the one to get the best info out of the visions by drawing out the possible spren, voidbringers, etc and making her drawings public to all the army. 

If there is one thing I hate is wasted potential and wasting resources. Everyone suddenly wasting the resource that is Shallan was...a waste.

But Jasnah ended up redeeming herself for that mistake in Part Two with her actions at the end. If she becomes more self-aware in the future. Because using Shallan how she was doing at the start was like taking a Stradivarius and having no clue what you have in your hands,, so giving it to an apprentice to practice.

I feel like Shallan reverted to being very childish around Jasnah, and so Jasnah treated her like a child.  Also, Jasnah isn't aware of a lot of Shallan's character development, so she tried to just pick up where they left off.  Jasnah admits she was wrong to do that, and recognizes that action as a flaw in her personality.

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RShara, a reminder not to double post. You can edit posts and also the plus sign button beside the Quote button stands for Multi-Quote, if you want to quote multiple people on the same post.

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2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I also have a quick question. Jasnahs tactics do lack emphaty, and when suggesting that they kill the Heralds, Jasnah even says that it is better to sacrifice a few to save many. How come that everyone loves her anyway, but hates the likes of King T and Amaram? Where lies the difference? 

One difference is that Jasnah wants to sacrifice 10 people to save the world. T wants to sacrifice the world to save one city. 

Another one is that she has capability to take a step back and, say, not kill Renarin. T and Amaram follow their lines of thinking even when they fail and can't admit when they're wrong. They won't even reasonably consider the idea, that Dalinar and KRs got some good cards in this game and maybe it'd be reasonable to play along? What I'm getting at is a fine distinction someone spotted in the diagram thread. Jasnah wants to save the world. The other two want to be the ones to save it (I mean, T. Amaram... Eeeh) 

Edited by Ailvara
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1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

she gets parachuted back into a world which has been drastically changed. She’s a princess and a powerful lighteyes, and she gets challenged by a darkeye who is essentially the leading Radiant in many people’s eyes, while she likely sees herself as the “founder” of the Radiants.

True.

53 minutes ago, Darvys said:

1. Kaladin : I think she was in part baiting the only unkown to her in that room, trying to figure out what he's made of

Also true.

15 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

The second point you raised did annoy me. Not only because Shallan had earned more respect than she got, but because it was a waste of resources.

 

Remember when they split up, Shallan was the naive, childish girl. Jasnah thinks she knows her. Even though she knows Shallan accomplished many thing, in her eyes she still is the girl who considered eloping with Kabsal.

It is a common mistake considering she went from being the only KR and only person worried about the Desolation, to being the one who arrived late, with so many new players in the game.

Also, we see most of this though Shallan´s eyes, and she is 1-unreliable narrator 2-has some issued with Jasnah, worships and dreads her in equal measure 3-thinks she is independent, but has been this way for only a few months, so she still doesn't feel really confident, specially around Jasnah.

3 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

One difference is that Jasnah wants to sacrifice 10 people to save the world. T wants to sacrifice the world to save one city. 

I don't think this is morally justifiable anyway...

 

Edited by Awesomness
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16 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think if the Heralds went back to Damnation, and didn't break, it would prevent the Fused from respawning when killed.  So they'd still have to kill the Fused that are on Roshar, but once dead, if the Oathpact is revitalized, then they should stay on Damnation.

Apparently not. According to the Stormfather:

Quote

THE FUSED DO NOT RETURN TO DAMNATION WHEN KILLED. THEY ARE REBORN IN THE NEXT EVERSTORM.

 Page 408 of the hardcover.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

One difference is that Jasnah wants to sacrifice 10 people to save the world. T wants to sacrifice the world to save one city. 

Another one is that she has capability to take a step back and, say, not kill Renarin. T and Amaram follow their lines of thinking even when they fail and can't admit when they're wrong. They won't even reasonably consider the idea, that Dalinar and KRs got some good cards in this game and maybe it'd be reasonable to play along? What I'm getting at is a fine distinction someone spotted in the diagram thread. Jasnah wants to save the world. The other two want to be the ones to save it (I mean, T. Amaram... Eeeh) 

10 people who she believes are traitors to humankind and Honor, no less.

 

Apparently not. According to the Stormfather: THE FUSED DO NOT RETURN TO DAMNATION WHEN KILLED. THEY ARE REBORN IN THE NEXT EVERSTORM.

 Page 408 of the hardcover.

 

 

But is this because all the Heralds are on Roshar?  If at least one of them went back, would they start returning to Damnation instead?

Edited by RShara
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One problem I have with Jasnah's thinking about about the Heralds is that we know the Desolations started coming more and more frequently because the Heralds kept breaking and coming back. If they killed the Heralds, for one, it wouldn't work the way Jasnah might think because something's gone messy with the Oathpact, and for second, more likely than not one or more of the Heralds would just break immediately and they'd all just be right back where they started. I need to reread Part Two to be sure, but I feel like Jasnah should have made that connection.

I still really liked her in this book, though. I don't blame her for treating Shallan the way she did; I think everybody 'regresses' when they meet someone they haven't seen in a while.

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1 minute ago, RShara said:

Again:  Right now, the Parshendi are actively trying to kill her people.  The Heralds deliberately betrayed their oaths.  I'm sure she'd be fine with a truce, if that were possible.  But with the Fused forcing the Parshendi on, it's not.

The Heralds are basically traitors to her.  Why should she have compassion for people who betrayed their oaths?

 

You call Jasnah cold and calculating, but you're okay with Amaram and T, both of whom are willing to sacrifice *innocent, harmless* people for their supposed selflessness?  Sorry, I don't get why you like them but not Jasnah, who only wants to stop active enemies?

I do see Jasnahs point, and her suggestions are not what makes me dislike her. It is her attitude toward those who disagree that is my issue. The reason for why I am discussing her compassion is because I disagreed with the idea that Heralds and parshmen didn't deserve symphaty, because they do. Their actions are understandable, and you can fight someone and feel symphaty for them at the same time. 

There are a couple of reasons for why I like Amaram and King T. The main thing is the fact that I can understand them and relate to them. As I stated, I have a hard time relating to Jasnah because of our how hugely different we are. I never feel that Amaram or King T are cold in the same way that Jasnah is. If you wish, I will try to explain it better tomorrow when I have had some sleep and acess to a computer instead of a phone.

The other main thing about Amaram and King T is that they never treat people badly because they disagree. Jasnah did. 

 

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22 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think if the Heralds went back to Damnation, and didn't break, it would prevent the Fused from respawning when killed.  So they'd still have to kill the Fused that are on Roshar, but once dead, if the Oathpact is revitalized, then they should stay on Damnation.

It wouldn't. The Stormfather said that the Fused don't go to Damnation anymore when killed. They just go straight to the everstorm where they can be reborn. Also at this point the oathpack is too weak to hold them (even if you ignore the fact that no herald would actually be willing to stay).

edit: its not that the heralds are on Roshar. If that was the case they could have just ended the other desolations by killing themselves.

Edited by Arch
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6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I do see Jasnahs point, and her suggestions are not what makes me dislike her. It is her attitude toward those who disagree that is my issue. The reason for why I am discussing her compassion is because I disagreed with the idea that Heralds and parshmen didn't deserve symphaty, because they do. Their actions are understandable, and you can fight someone and feel symphaty for them at the same time. 

There are a couple of reasons for why I like Amaram and King T. The main thing is the fact that I can understand them and relate to them. As I stated, I have a hard time relating to Jasnah because of our how hugely different we are. I never feel that Amaram or King T are cold in the same way that Jasnah is. If you wish, I will try to explain it better tomorrow when I have had some sleep and acess to a computer instead of a phone.

The other main thing about Amaram and King T is that they never treat people badly because they disagree. Jasnah did. 

 

Well we haven't had many viewpoints from Jasnah, so we don't really know how she *feels* about anything.  And again, try to see this from her point of view:  The Parshendi are trying to kill her people.  The Heralds betrayed them.  Why should she have compassion for them?

 

 

Uhhhh Amaram and T both mass slaughter people they disagree with... Or even that just get in their way.  And they don't have compassion for the Parshendi or the Heralds.  They're trying to use them.

Jasnah, far as I know, hasn't mass-slaughtered anyone who wasn't a direct threat to her.

 

Oh, and T did treat his friends and advisors pretty badly on his super-smart day.

Edited by RShara
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I really wouldnt call what the Heralds did a betrayal to humanity. They signed up to do the impossible and well failed... 

I feel like the only person who has a right to feel betrayed is Taln (and he doesnt)

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5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

2. Her treatment of Shallan. Shallan has become an accomplished Radiant, who has saved the entire Alethi force, found Urithiru, and fought off an Unmade. Jasnah makes her a scribe. I understand that Jasnah is more experienced, that she can teach, and that Shallan needs to learn things, but giving her scribe duty is stupid. For one, it shows that Jasnah considers Shallan to be below her in status. Two, Jasnah should be able to figure out that Shallan might start to feel rebellious if she is treated like a random servant. Three, Shallan deserves to be treated as more of an equal, after all she has done.

Honestly in this scene I was more annoyed at Shallan than anything else. Her mentor is back from the grave and she's acting so childish, selfish and also a bit ungrateful... Jasnah does in fact give her full credit for what she's done, but in no way is Shallan her equal (socially, academically, maturity or how far they've progressed as radiants). Jasnah has been very patient and forgiving with her and helped Shallan when she needed it the most (even after betraying Jasnah's trust). When they meet again Shallan doesn't feel like she needs Jasnah's good graces anymore so she doesn't care. Like really? I know this isnt Shallan's intention and she's just immature, but it makes her come off as an opportunist.

Edited by Arch
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3 minutes ago, Arch said:

I really wouldnt call what the Heralds did a betrayal to humanity. They signed up to do the impossible and well failed... 

I feel like the only person who has a right to feel betrayed is Taln (and he doesnt)

The betrayal was in the lie, why say that the war was over when for all you knew it could have restarted the next year ? They lulled the people into a sense of security that left them completely unprepared to deal with the desolation when it came. Sure after four millenia vigilence would have been close to nonexistent but well; so many things would have gone differently, hard to say it the result would have been better or worse, it at least certainly wasn't the right thing to do.

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Quote

Jasnah raised her Blade over Renarin’s head.

Make it quick. Make it painless.

Most threats to a dynasty came from within.

Renarin was obviously corrupted. She’d known there was a problem the moment she’d read that he had predicted the Everstorm. Now, Jasnah had to be strong. She had to do what was right, even when it was so, so hard.

She prepared to swing, but then Renarin turned and looked at her. Tears streaming down his face, he met her eyes, and henodded.

Suddenly they were young again. He was a trembling child, weeping on her shoulder for a father who didn’t seem to be able to feel love. Little Renarin, always so solemn. Always misunderstood, laughed at and condemned by people who said similar things about Jasnah behind her back.

Jasnah froze, as if standing at the edge of a cliff. Wind blew through the temple, carrying with it a pair of spren in the form of golden spheres, bobbing in the currents.

Jasnah dismissed her sword.

“Jasnah?” Ivory said, appearing back in the form of a man, clinging to her collar.

Jasnah fell to her knees, then pulled Renarin into an embrace. He broke down crying, like he had as a boy, burying his head in her shoulder.

“What’s wrong with me?” Renarin asked. “Why do I see these things? I thought I was doing something right, with Glys, but somehow it’s all wrong.…”

“Hush,” Jasnah whispered. “We’ll find a way through it, Renarin. Whatever it is, we’ll fix it. We’ll survive this, somehow.”

I don't see how anyone could read this passage and think that she lacks compassion.  Logic, her spren, and all information she has points to her killing him as the rational action.  But she couldn't do that to the cousin she loves.

Edited by RShara
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14 minutes ago, Darvys said:

The betrayal was in the lie, why say that the war was over when for all you knew it could have restarted the next year ? They lulled the people into a sense of security that left them completely unprepared to deal with the desolation when it came. Sure after four millenia vigilence would have been close to nonexistent but well; so many things would have gone differently, hard to say it the result would have been better or worse, it at least certainly wasn't the right thing to do.

that's a good point, but also really speculative. Maybe if they warned them people would have worked together for a time, but after 4 thousand years it's all but garanteed theyd forget and start squabbling again so I don't see that much changing. Also at the time they broke the pact Honor and the radiants were still around to guide humanity.

For some reason The heralds seemed to genuinely believe the oathpack would hold with just Taln. Maybe they were mad by then and just desperate to believe any excuse to escape the torture, but they did think it would hold.

Edited by Arch
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47 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I do see Jasnahs point, and her suggestions are not what makes me dislike her. It is her attitude toward those who disagree that is my issue. The reason for why I am discussing her compassion is because I disagreed with the idea that Heralds and parshmen didn't deserve symphaty, because they do. Their actions are understandable, and you can fight someone and feel symphaty for them at the same time. 

So far, we see Jasnah suggest drastic action, but we don't see her act on it. The one drastic action she tries to take (killing Renarin) she couldn't follow through on. I think it remains to be seen how cold and calculating she actually is, whereas we know Mr T and Amaram will commit to horrible acts. 

As far as how Jasnah comes across, as someone mentioned up thread, she is a woman in a patriarchal society who is majorly bucking social constructs. She is going to be viewed in a different way than a man who is engaging in the same actions, and this will likewise cause her to naturally become defensive because she always has to defend herself. You see this with powerful women in our society today; they are characterized differently than powerful men. A woman is always told to be warmer, more sympathetic, more "womanly", "motherly", and I find it a very natural reaction to become hardened to such critique which will actually make one less warm and sympathetic. We haven't seen what Jasnah went through to get to the place she is now, but bucking expected convention is never easy. 

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53 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

as far as how Jasnah comes across, as someone mentioned up thread, she is a woman in a patriarchal society who is majorly bucking social constructs. She is going to be viewed in a different way than a man who is engaging in the same actions, and this will likewise cause her to naturally become defensive because she always has to defend herself. You see this with powerful women in our society today; they are characterized differently than powerful men. A woman is always told to be warmer, more sympathetic, more "womanly", "motherly", and I find it a very natural reaction to become hardened to such critique which will actually make one less warm and sympathetic. We haven't seen what Jasnah went through to get to the place she is now, but bucking expected convention is never easy. 

Pertinent, but as an aside, my area of academic research is related to gender and stereotyping, and it’s interesting how many similar tropes and stereotypes exist in Roshar as exist today. Of course part of that is that BS is a man raised on earth and filtering through that (lol) but the competence vs warmth dichotomy is so omnipresent (women are seen as either competent but cold, or incompetent/unreliable but warm/likable) even in fantasy. Hard to escape.

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Jasnah = sacrifice the Heralds to lock away the Voidbringers again. 

Taravangian = sacrifice whatever is needed to make sure humanity survives. 

Amaram = sacrifice as many as it takes to return the Heralds and bring the church back to power and impose my beliefs on everyone. 

There's a reason I put Amaram below the others, long before his Unmade corruption. 

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26 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Pertinent, but as an aside, my area of academic research is related to gender and stereotyping, and it’s interesting how many similar tropes and stereotypes exist in Roshar as exist today. Of course part of that is that BS is a man raised on earth and filtering through that (lol) but the competence vs warmth dichotomy is so omnipresent (women are seen as either competent but cold, or incompetent/unreliable but warm/likable) even in fantasy. Hard to escape.

I was noticing this myself.

 

Quote

Taravangian = sacrifice whatever is needed to make sure humanity survives

Actually, he's evolved to the point of "Sacrifice everybody else to keep my city alive."

Edited by RShara
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23 minutes ago, RShara said:

Actually, he's evolved to the point of "Sacrifice everybody else to keep my city alive."

The seed is smaller than he wanted but it's the same goal. He believes that humanity cannot win. 

Under those beliefs, his acquiescence is logical. 

He's wrong, and he's being manipulated by Odium (and Cultivation if I'm correct) but in the face of a choice of all humanity dies, or a single city survives... 

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6 hours ago, RShara said:

I love that she's so intelligent and confident and unapologetic for it.  Can't wait to read her viewpoint novel.  So many intelligent people are embarrassed, faux-humble, or apologetic for their intelligence, particularly when it's a woman.  It's refreshing to see someone who is proud of her intelligence while recognizing her faults without being embarrassed about them.

Could not agree with this more. Jasnah is a kind of strong female protagonist that very rarely appears in fantasy.

I also loved the Thaylen City battle where she is revealed to be an absolute BAMF.

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7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

In short, I cant help but read Jasnah as someone who is convinced of her own brilliance. She thinks that she knows best, and that her ideas should be followed, while looking down on others who lack experience, or disagrees with her. She is domineering and self-important. Her aura of "I know best" is hugely bothering, and her borderline refusal to look at things from other peoples perspective is a glaring flaw. 

I also have a quick question. Jasnahs tactics do lack emphaty, and when suggesting that they kill the Heralds, Jasnah even says that it is better to sacrifice a few to save many. How come that everyone loves her anyway, but hates the likes of King T and Amaram? Where lies the difference?

 

 

Absolutely convinced of her own brilliance and has probably never met anyone capable of challenging her throughout the majority of her life. I would say that tends toward a Domineering, Self-Important and relatively inflated Ego..

But hey, she got it honest. Even Navani comments somewhere about her inability to jive with her daughter, even at a young age... Alienation does funny things to kids and their coping mechanisms are typically less than healthy.

I Forgive Jasnah's lack of Empathy and Social Grace and Grant her 4 1/2 cool points because of these qualities.

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6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

1. The Voidbringer talk in Part 2. Here Jasnah wants to condemn the Heralds to eternal torture as opposed to Kaladin, who wants to spare them. Jasnahs drastic methods aren't why I didlike her (I like both King T and Amaram). What I dislike is her being a total douchebag to Kaladin when he disagrees. She quickly starts insulting him, and talks down to him. That is what I don't like. Granted Kaladin asks if she is insane when hearing about her plan, but I don't really think of that as an insult, but more a strong objection. Jasnah instantly starts insulting Kaladin, suggesting that he lacks logic, and that he isn't grown-up. 

2. Her treatment of Shallan. Shallan has become an accomplished Radiant, who has saved the entire Alethi force, found Urithiru, and fought off an Unmade. Jasnah makes her a scribe. I understand that Jasnah is more experienced, that she can teach, and that Shallan needs to learn things, but giving her scribe duty is stupid. For one, it shows that Jasnah considers Shallan to be below her in status. Two, Jasnah should be able to figure out that Shallan might start to feel rebellious if she is treated like a random servant. Three, Shallan deserves to be treated as more of an equal, after all she has done.

Those were two aspects of Jasnah that I also thought weren't portrayed very well. The first one was especially galling (it seemed to be in there just to contrast Windrunner vs. Elsecaller philosophies) especially because it seemed so out of place for Jasnah to go for such an ad hominem attack. Given the number of unknowns, it should be pretty hard for Jasnah to simply rule out possible courses of action like she does here; she does a really bad job of checking her error bars in this scene. So yeah, this one is a bad one for sure.

The second is a bit more excusable I think, considering how Shallan was the last time Jasnah saw her; even learning of what Shallan has accomplished in the meantime wouldn't necessarily change how Jasnah views Shallan (Jasnah has no context - most likely she only heard about Shallan's artistic skills figuring out the location of the Oathgate, and remember that Jasnah doesn't know anything related to the Ghostbloods or her dealings with Tyn). Jasnah does seem to reconsider based on new data:

Quote

She tapped the table. “You’re right, of course. Wouldn’t I rather have her straining against her boundaries, as opposed to happily living within them? Whether she obeys me or not is of little import. But I do worry about her ability to command her situation, rather than letting her impulses command her.”

“How do you change this, if it is?”

An excellent question. Jasnah searched through the papers on her small table. She’d been collecting reports from her informants in the warcamps—the ones who had survived—about Shallan. She’d truly done well in Jasnah’s absence. Perhaps what the child needed was not more structure, but more challenges.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 480). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

It's worth noting though that many of Jasnah's concerns about Shallan's behavior is pretty reasonable:

Quote

Jasnah sighed softly, opening up the sketchpad again. “Shallan,” she said in a strangely … comforting tone. “I’m impressed. I am impressed, truly. But what I’ve heard of you recently is troubling. You’ve ingratiated yourself with my family, and made good on the causal betrothal to Adolin. Yet here you are with wandering eyes, as this sketch testifies.”

“I—”

“You skip meetings that Dalinar calls,” Jasnah continued, soft but immovable. “When you do go, you sit at the back and barely pay attention. He tells me that half the time, you find an excuse to slip out early.

“You investigated the presence of an Unmade in the tower, and frightened it off basically alone. Yet you never explained how you found it when Dalinar’s soldiers could not.” She met Shallan’s eyes. “You’ve always hidden things from me. Some of those secrets were very damaging, and I find myself unwilling to believe you don’t have others.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 417). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Jasnah's actually put a good deal of trust in Shallan, considering her attempted theft, and her suspicions about Shallan having other secrets, potentially personally hazardous to Jasnah, is absolutely accurate, as we know. Shallan is a prodigy, but she's not an expert in all areas she wants to be an expert in, and her behavior in Oathbringer is really extremely erratic. The way Jasnah tries to deal with Shallan is not just from the perspective of a teacher, but someone trying to manage a potential threat. Finally, Jasnah even admits that she's not necessarily a good teacher; in a way Shallan ends up being a pretty good ward for her precisely because Shallan turns out to be so personally driven.

And there were many good scenes with Jasnah, regardless of the issues above (pretty much every other time she shows up, really):

- Learning she has offline backups. This was awesome. The only way it could have been better was finding out that she has version control.

- Consoling Dalinar:

Quote

She reached over and put her freehand on his arm. “You are not a heretic, Dalinar Kholin. You are a king, a Radiant, and a father. You are a man with complicated beliefs, who does not accept everything you are told. You decide how you are defined. Don’t surrender that to them. They will gleefully take the chance to define you, if you allow it.”

Dalinar nodded slowly.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 401-402). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

- Spanreed chatrooms (complete with GIRL). They've literally invented IRC.

- Thaylen City. No selling the two Fused without even looking at them. She's probably not the one to go up against Amaram because it'd have lasted about five seconds.

 

Basically, it's not that everything with Jasnah was perfect, but that she's well-characterized as the most intelligent person in the series, and she gets a lot of good scenes. Everyone gets bad scenes; if that disqualified a character from being likeable, no one would qualify. I think the main issue is that despite Jasnah being in Oathbringer as a POV character, she's still relatively minor - she's really only in two of the five parts - so she doesn't quite get as much time to shine.

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