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[OB] Dalinar´s Fifth Ideal


Awesomness

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My first instinct with the "We killed you" was Honor. This is a moment when Tanavast and Honor are really close again. Tanavast is merged Stormfather who is bonded with Dalinar, who is wielding Honor's Perpendicularity. That seems to be what is freaking Odium out: that Honor might be coming back way too quickly for his taste.

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I don't think he swore more than one oath (I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man). Part of Dalinar's storyline in this book is him realizing that change can happen slowly, that taking the next step, the next small change, is the important part of becoming a better person. Knights Radiant have Oaths they say over a longer period of time, because there are realizations they must come to, growing they must do, before they're ready.

For Dalinar to suddenly swear two (or even three) oaths? More than anyone ever did in one event? To just suddenly be the perfect Knight Radiant he's slowly been struggling his way to ever since the start of his story? If this was true, I'd be disappointed with the way he was developed as a character.

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6 minutes ago, Willow said:

I don't think he swore more than one oath (I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man).

I agree. This keeps with the dual nature of most of the actual Oaths we have seen so far. And even if the way they tie in isn't obvious, when you put it in context with Dalinar, it makes sense. For him taking responsibility means that when he falls, he can't ignore it. He has to acknowledge it and figure out how to rise up and do better. The second sentence explains why he felt the need to say the first sentence.

Edited by Brightlord Maelstrom
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8 minutes ago, Willow said:

Part of Dalinar's storyline in this book is him realizing that change can happen slowly, that taking the next step, the next small change, is the important part of becoming a better person. Knights Radiant have Oaths they say over a longer period of time, because there are realizations they must come to, growing they must do, before they're ready.

You are right... yet I still read the passage and doubt.

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2 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

You are right... yet I still read the passage and doubt.

I get what you mean. "I am Unity" feels way too powerful, and had way too powerful of a reaction to be discounted easily. And it comes right after Nale's description of the Skybreaker's 5th Ideal. We can be sure that Brandon will be getting some questions on the subject.

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At first I thought that "I am Unity" does not seem like an oath,it's more of a statement, but then I recalled that there are supposed to be 5 sets of Immortal Words which can be oaths, but can also be something else entirely (e.g. truths for Lightweavers). So it could totally be the case that it is the last set of Words in Bondsmith's progression.

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I have a couple of problems with these oaths. First of all, they don't seem very Bond-y. His Second Oath was "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together". Having him swear something out of this context seems really weird.

 

My second point is about how the two sentences supposedly add to one another. To that I raise the Windrunner 2nd and 3rd Ideals. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves", and "I will protect those I hate, so long as it is right" (written by memory). You could put them one after the other, and they'll feel as linked as the ones Dalinar said, if not more.

 

Kaladin's 3rd ideal was epic and spectacular, but that was because he healed up and fought over clashing storms against Szeth. The epicness was due to the events following the oath. Dalinar swore the oath(s) and ripped the Cosmere 3 new ones as a result of the power he gained. So Windrunners get more stormlight capacity and greater efficiency and control over surges, but Bondsmiths get to combine realms after their THIRD IDEAL? I shudder to think what Dalinar would look like in the future if he DIDN'T sworn all of his Ideals just then.

 

The last problem people have is with the supposed lack of a gap between the Ideals, if it indeed is plural. The gap is there for the person to grow as an individual, to really mean the oaths. Well, Dalinar really grew fast. His memories coming back account for years and years of experience and change, which when combined with a new outlook on life sets him up to understand and mean the Oaths. "It's the Cultivation part of the bond", I hear someone cry in the distance. Well, this sudden growth and realisation is BECAUSE of Cultivation.

Edited by Zurthian
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On 11/27/2017 at 4:19 AM, Willow said:

I don't think he swore more than one oath (I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man). Part of Dalinar's storyline in this book is him realizing that change can happen slowly, that taking the next step, the next small change, is the important part of becoming a better person. Knights Radiant have Oaths they say over a longer period of time, because there are realizations they must come to, growing they must do, before they're ready.

For Dalinar to suddenly swear two (or even three) oaths? More than anyone ever did in one event? To just suddenly be the perfect Knight Radiant he's slowly been struggling his way to ever since the start of his story? If this was true, I'd be disappointed with the way he was developed as a character.

So Coppermind officially labels "I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man" as the third Oath. 

They don't acknowledge the rest. Good call. 

 

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1 hour ago, Watchcry said:

So Coppermind officially labels "I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man" as the third Oath. 

They don't acknowledge the rest. Good call. 

 

As someone who edited the Coppermind for the first time today, I would advise you to not take that as established canon until we get official confirmation from Brandon. 

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On 11/24/2017 at 5:10 PM, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Or we should stop making assumptions. 

The Oaths are a matter of progression. A learning process. The "Cultivation" half of surgebinding. 

He said one oath. He will have to progress in his development and learn something else to say another. 

As far as "I am Unity" is concerned, he was touching the spiritual realm at the time. He was in contact with a place that time is non-existent. I believe this is foreshadowing for what the Shard of Honor will become once he reassembles it. 

That's just my opinion though. 

 

On 11/24/2017 at 5:39 PM, Lemmyh2 said:

What did Odium mean by "we killed you?" Cultivation maybe?

 

On 11/26/2017 at 3:28 PM, 8giraffe8 said:

The dead go to the Beyond, not the Spiritual Realm. And I guess it could be Evi, and Odium is just confused as to why she didn't go Beyond/how she returned from Beyond.

Well, we aren't entirely sure the Beyond isn't the Spiritual Realm

 

On 11/27/2017 at 2:30 AM, Ookla the Altruist said:

My first instinct with the "We killed you" was Honor. This is a moment when Tanavast and Honor are really close again. Tanavast is merged Stormfather who is bonded with Dalinar, who is wielding Honor's Perpendicularity. That seems to be what is freaking Odium out: that Honor might be coming back way too quickly for his taste.

 

3 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Ishar was the one who originally put the restrictions/oaths on the Nahel Bond, right?

Dalinar being a Bondsmith, could he have unknowingly altered the Bondsmith oaths?  (Perhaps more feasible in current Roshar because Honor is dead.)

Would explain part of the Stormfather's surprise.

As far as I can tell, Dalinar did something that made him access Honor's power, and that was how he made the Perpendicularity, Odium said, "no, we killed you!" Meaning him(and someone else) shattered Honor, and maybe Dalinar saying "I am Unity" was basically just him renaming the shard

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10 minutes ago, Ookla the Lightweaver said:

Well, we aren't entirely sure the Beyond isn't the Spiritual Realm

Yes actually, we are. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1729

Quote

Ward (paraphrased)

When Harmony ascended, I think he said he had trouble seeing what was going on in the Spiritual realm. Does he get better at this?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He does. Also it's important to note that the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond.

We also know that when someone dies, they leave a spiritual corpse. 

Edited by Ookla, the Incalculable
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23 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

All arguments against these words being three oaths are valid, and my gut  feeling is, that it was indeed just one. I only have one problem with this approach - if "I am Unity" is not the Bondsmiths' third ideal, then what is...? 

I asked Brandon about this yesterday and got a WoB on the subject. (audio in the Arcanum, pending transcription for referencing)

Hoidonalsium
In his rejection of Odium, how many oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the realms, and is "I AM UNITY" the fifth?

Brandon
No, that is not an oath. He swore one ideal in that little experience.

Hoidonalsium
Ok - how many oaths is he on?

Brandon
Er - the number you think - so he should be on... he just finished three, right? No, maybe four... I have to go look... It's the number you think it is. I'm not being sneaky on you, there's nothing sneaky there. He doesn't get armour, so I.. can't remember where he is..

Hoidonalsium
...yeah, there are a lot of queries about spren maybe, maybe not forming armour...

Brandon
He should be at three. "Life before death" - "I will unite instead of divide" - "I will stand up each time I fall" - yeah, so he's done three.

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On 1/12/2017 at 10:59 PM, What's a Seawolf? said:

 Ishar was the one who originally put the restrictions/oaths on the Nahel Bond, right?

Dalinar being a Bondsmith, could he have unknowingly altered the Bondsmith oaths?  (Perhaps more feasible in current Roshar because Honor is dead.)

Would explain part of the Stormfather's surprise.

the oathgate warden spren still follow the rule of honor (the parent died, don't think the definition can fit for another one) strictly.

the stormfather don't trust the human but honor before die command him to find a person how can be a bondsmith and give him the vision he crafted. even the moment dalinar swore the second oath the stormfather accept them with unwillingness. he accept only because honor demand it (even the dialogue syl-SF at the end of WoR lying on the same line)

"the almighty demanded it to me. I could no more disobey than i could refuse to blow the winds." (WoR chapter 89 "the four")

"I was given this leave: to choose those who would best be served by the visions. He paused, then grudgingly continued. To choose a Bondsmith." (Oathbringer Chapter 28 "another option")

the immortal word are the same since the time ishar created the KR.

Edited by Fulminato
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32 minutes ago, Hoidonalsium said:

Brandon
He should be at three. "Life before death" - "I will unite instead of divide" - "I will stand up each time I fall" - yeah, so he's done three.

Great, now we only need to figure out why SF waited for Dalinar to finish his speech before accepting the Words - something he hasn't done before and he isn't exactly the type to wait tactfully for a convenient moment. However, I like the Oath, this was the most obvious choice if it was just one Ideal.

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3 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Great, now we only need to figure out why SF waited for Dalinar to finish his speech before accepting the Words - something he hasn't done before and he isn't exactly the type to wait tactfully for a convenient moment. However, I like the Oath, this was the most obvious choice if it was just one Ideal.

He was reluctant to accept Dalinar's first two oaths.

Quote

'Life before death!' Dalinar shouted. 'Strength before weakness! Journey before destination!

I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!

...

'Fortunately,' Dalinar said, 'I know the second oath I am to make. I don't need to be told it. I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.'
The thunder silenced. Dalinar stood alone, staring at the sky, waiting.
VERY WELL, the Stormfather finally said. THESE WORDS ARE ACEPTED.
Dalinar smiled.

If he can be stubbornly silent before accepting an oath, I'm sure he can be shocked into silence as well. I don't think we need an explanation on why the words weren't accepted immediately. Especially since we should also recognise that non-essential in-world functions come second to an author providing a spine tingling moment at the climax of the novel. Sticking "THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED" halfway through Dalinar's  speech would have messed up the flow.

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2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Great, now we only need to figure out why SF waited for Dalinar to finish his speech before accepting the Words - something he hasn't done before and he isn't exactly the type to wait tactfully for a convenient moment. However, I like the Oath, this was the most obvious choice if it was just one Ideal.

odium had try to overwhelm dalinar with emotion (guilty, rage and hatred mostly), the thrill fill him, i think this will pushed the stormfather to silence and only after he reject the term of odium and drive the shard away let the SF to acknowledge the oath spoken.

Edited by Fulminato
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On 11/25/2017 at 11:43 PM, teknopathetic said:

"Unity" reminds me a lot of Dominion. Just saying. 

Unity is the same as Dominion in the same way that Confidence and Arrogance are the same thing. One is a good trait, the other is not. They are like 2 sides of the same coin.

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6 hours ago, Hoidonalsium said:

Hoidonalsium
In his rejection of Odium, how many oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the realms, and is "I AM UNITY" the fifth?

Brandon
No, that is not an oath. He swore one ideal in that little experience.

Hoidonalsium
Ok - how many oaths is he on?

Brandon
Er - the number you think - so he should be on... he just finished three, right? No, maybe four... I have to go look... It's the number you think it is. I'm not being sneaky on you, there's nothing sneaky there. He doesn't get armour, so I.. can't remember where he is..

Hoidonalsium
...yeah, there are a lot of queries about spren maybe, maybe not forming armour...

Brandon
He should be at three. "Life before death" - "I will unite instead of divide" - "I will stand up each time I fall" - yeah, so he's done three.

This saddens me more than it should. I want to know all the oaths. Its my main hunger in this series. That its only 1 and not 3....book 4 better have a ton of new oaths.

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