Awesomness

[OB] Dalinar´s Fifth Ideal

64 posts in this topic

Hello everyone. As I said in another thread, I have my doubts regarding the moment when Dalinar said the oath and opened the perpendicularity. 

On rereading I became even more certain that the oath is not "I will take responsibility..." but "I AM UNITY", and that is not the 3rd ideal, but the 5th. So I share with you the quote (compilation of Dalinar´s POV on that moment).

Quote

“Unite them.
“Journey before destination,” Dalinar said. “It cannot be a journey if it doesn’t have a beginning.”
A thunderclap sounded in his mind. Suddenly, awareness poured back into him. The Stormfather, distant, feeling frightened—but also surprised.
Dalinar?
“I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”

----

“UNITE THEM!
Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, plunging it between realms, grabbing hold of the very fabric of existence. The world of minds, the realm of thought.
He thrust his right hand to the other side, touching something vast, something that wasn’t a place—it was all places in one. He’d seen this ”

“before, in the moment when Odium had let him glimpse the Spiritual Realm.
Today, he held it in his hand.
The Fused scrambled away. Amaram pushed down his faceplate, but that wasn’t enough. He stumbled back, arm raised. Only one person remained in place. A young parshwoman, the one that Dalinar had visited in the visions.
“What are you?” she whispered as he stood with arms outstretched, holding to the lands of mind and spirit.
He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it a simple, quiet voice. A woman’s voice, so familiar to him.
I forgive you.
Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning.
“I am Unity.”
He slammed both hands together.
And combined three realms into one.”

----

“No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!”
Dalinar stood within a pillar of light and spinning gloryspren, one hand to each side, clutching the realms that made up reality.
Forgiven. The pain he’d so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own.
These Words … are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done?”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

This is the moment Dalinar says the Words, and the moment the Stormfather accepts them.

This from Nin and the Skybrakers

Quote

“In part. Though I have certain leniencies. The others have told you of the Fifth Ideal?”
“The Ideal where the Skybreaker becomes the law?”
Nin held out his empty left hand. A Shardblade appeared there, different and distinct from the Honorblade he carried in the other hand. “I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal. Though I was originally skeptical of the Radiants, I believe I am the only one who eventually joined his own order.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

Quote

“The Ideal of Law,” Ki said. “It is difficult. You must become law, become truth. As I said, it has been centuries since that was achieved.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

What do you think?

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I originally thought that "I am Unity" was the ideal; BUT I changed my mind because:

  1. it sounds like a 5th ideal not a 3rd (as you reason above) - and I don't think we'd skip 3rd and 4th.
  2. This post: 

 

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I think he said at least 2, and possibly 3.  That's why Stormfather was so surprised.

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Wait, is that even allowed? :huh: To say three Oaths in a row :blink: 

If Dalinar lived on Earth, he'd be a hacker :ph34r: 

We need a WoB on how many Oaths Dalinar said.

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This idea that he did multiple Oaths makes a lot of sense with one exception; I think if he'd sworn multiple Oaths here he would have manifested shard plate.

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3 minutes ago, rjl said:

This idea that he did multiple Oaths makes a lot of sense with one exception; I think if he'd sworn multiple Oaths here he would have manifested shard plate.

Maybe there's slightly more to it than just the oaths? I think the presence of spren is a clue. Kaladin keeps seeing windspren the closer he gets to the 4th oath. Dalinar was surrounded with gloryspren during that scene in Part 5. I've seen some theories that Plate is comprised of a group of spren that manifest themselves as the Plate, unlike the Shardblade which is a manifestation of the spren you bonded. 

But maybe the Plate isn't made automatically just by saying the oaths. Maybe the oaths are a prerequisite, but you still have to do something to build/summon the Plate. 

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17 minutes ago, rjl said:

This idea that he did multiple Oaths makes a lot of sense with one exception; I think if he'd sworn multiple Oaths here he would have manifested shard plate.

The Stormfather did say that he would be a radiant without shards...

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I imagine you'd need to put your mind towards summoning Plate, Blades don't appear automatically either. Granted, the spren tell the Radiant he can 'stretch forth thy hand' and get a Blade now, but if the Plate is made of mindless minor spren, they can't say anything.

Back to how many Oaths - in WoR there were also speculations how many Ideals Dalinar said and if 'I will unite instead of divide' and 'I will bring men together' were two different, but Brandon later clarified those count as one ideal. This could be him yet again unintentionally confusing us. I think it's a fair criticism to say if we can't tell how many oaths Dalinar swore and what exactly is the Oath once again, Brandon should be more careful about these things in future books.

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13 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Brandon should be more careful about these things in future books.

Or we should stop making assumptions. 

The Oaths are a matter of progression. A learning process. The "Cultivation" half of surgebinding. 

He said one oath. He will have to progress in his development and learn something else to say another. 

As far as "I am Unity" is concerned, he was touching the spiritual realm at the time. He was in contact with a place that time is non-existent. I believe this is foreshadowing for what the Shard of Honor will become once he reassembles it. 

That's just my opinion though. 

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39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Or we should stop making assumptions.

The Oaths are a matter of progression. A learning process. The "Cultivation" half of surgebinding. 

He said one oath. He will have to progress in his development and learn something else to say another. 

Other surgebinders say a single sentence and Dalinar gives a whole speech, a little clarification won't hurt :P

 

edit: Checked the thread about new ideals. Taking responsibility and not giving away his pain are stated as ideals, yet those two sentences are not sequential, so either he said more than one or an Ideal can be a essay. 'My glory and my shame' is also signed as an ideal and it wasn't even in the speech, but in in-world OB. If it's the same oath, writing it in three different ways without explanation doesn't help people come to the right conclusion especially when the first post is about a sharder who asked for new oaths and got two quotes from Dalinar.

However, 'I am unity' isn't mentioned as a new Ideal. 

Edited by Aleksiel
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46 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I imagine you'd need to put your mind towards summoning Plate, Blades don't appear automatically either. Granted, the spren tell the Radiant he can 'stretch forth thy hand' and get a Blade now, but if the Plate is made of mindless minor spren, they can't say anything.

Back to how many Oaths - in WoR there were also speculations how many Ideals Dalinar said and if 'I will unite instead of divide' and 'I will bring men together' were two different, but Brandon later clarified those count as one ideal. This could be him yet again unintentionally confusing us. I think it's a fair criticism to say if we can't tell how many oaths Dalinar swore and what exactly is the Oath once again, Brandon should be more careful about these things in future books.

I think the bonded spren becomes in charge of the lesser spren in order to make and summon the plate. Syl talks about the possibility in part one. The StormFather wouldn't provide that kind of service I don't think. 

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@AleksielI didn't want to bring it up in that thread but I don't think either of those are new ideals.

At the Portland signing, Brandon said that if you didn't know what you wanted for a personalization he would write the in world Oathbringer subtitle. "my glory, my shame." is the generic signing line he did, similar to "hands all red" in one of the era 2 books. 

"you cannot have my pain" the other one, was obviously not an oath. It was a rejection of Odium. 

I don't believe either is an oath for the Bondsmiths. 

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48 minutes ago, Lemmyh2 said:

What did Odium mean by "we killed you?" Cultivation maybe?

I’m thinking that he is either referring to adonalsium, or more likely, hinting that he had help in killing Honor. 

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@Calderis it sounds reasonable. If Dalinar's previous Ideal is any indication, then his new one is most likely 

Quote

“I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”

It took the SF several paragraphs before saying these words are accepted, so I could be wrong. However, the second sentence reminds me of another ideal Brandon gave us without clarifying which Order it belonged to: 'I will stand where others fall'.

 

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4 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

It took the SF several paragraphs before saying these words are accepted, so I could be wrong. However, the second sentence reminds me of another ideal Brandon gave us without clarifying which Order it belonged to: 'I will stand where others fall'.

We know the Stormmfather accepts the words the moment they are said (and meant). 

Quote

“Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before pancakes.’ That’s the easy one. The hard one is, ‘I will protect those who cannot protect themselves,’ and—”
A sudden flash of coldness struck Lopen, and the gemstones in the room flickered, then went out. A symbol crystallized in frost on the stones around Lopen, vanishing under the cots. The ancient symbol of the Windrunners.
“What?” Lopen stood up. “What? Now?”
He heard a far-off rumbling, like thunder.
“NOW?” Lopen said, shaking a fist at the sky. “I was saving that for a dramatic moment, you penhito! Why didn’t you listen earlier? We were, sure, all about to die and things!”
He got a distinct, very distant impression.
YOU WEREN’T QUITE READY.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

 

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I like this idea. He said two in a row the first time. Why not again? And Becoming Unity being the 5th Ideal makes a lot of sense because of the Skybreaker 5th Ideal.

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41 minutes ago, Edvarin said:

I like this idea. He said two in a row the first time. Why not again? And Becoming Unity being the 5th Ideal makes a lot of sense because of the Skybreaker 5th Ideal.

Because he'd already said the first oath long before, in much the same way that we saw Kaladin do. 

When he says the first oath atop Urithiru, the Stormfather even tells him he's past that point if I remember correctly.

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because he'd already said the first oath long before, in much the same way that we saw Kaladin do. 

When he says the first oath atop Urithiru, the Stormfather even tells him he's past that point if I remember correctly.

 

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Or we should stop making assumptions. 

The Oaths are a matter of progression. A learning process. The "Cultivation" half of surgebinding. 

He said one oath. He will have to progress in his development and learn something else to say another. 

As far as "I am Unity" is concerned, he was touching the spiritual realm at the time. He was in contact with a place that time is non-existent. I believe this is foreshadowing for what the Shard of Honor will become once he reassembles it. 

That's just my opinion though. 

We see through the whole book that Stormfather became more aware, his thoughts weren't as primitive (black and white) as before. At the same time, Dalinar was questioning everything.

Nightwatcher didn't offer a boon/curse to Dalinar, it was Cultivation herself, and she made it so that Dalinar could remember it later. He even wondered why Cultivation wanted the memories return. When he broke free from the Thrill, he understood why. He could've ended his journey anytime he wanted, but he wouldn't be the person he is now if he did.

Everyone that could see the future (Cultivation, Odium, AND Renarin) knew that Dalinar will fall. And none predicted that he could ascend. Only Taravangian, predicted this in diagram (he wrote something for his future self about Dalinar and the champion). 

Anyway, I think that Dalinar both said the Words and had the intent. Plus, if you remember, Szeth didn't need anytime to say the 3rd Ideal. And Nale thought he could progress to 3 right away.

Edited by lastofus
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My thought was that at least one of Dalinar’s oaths was not of the Bondsmith order: “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”, but that it was still Accepted. That would explain the Stormfather’s confusion, along with the claim that this has never happened before and Dalinar himself saying that they are something new.

Though if he ends up getting extra Surges as a result of that oath, I’ll be the first to complain about his hacking the system. :P

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13 hours ago, humanchaos said:

I’m thinking that he is either referring to adonalsium, or more likely, hinting that he had help in killing Honor. 

I think Odium is referring to Evi here as it’s what he immediately says after Dalinar hears “i forgive you” from the spirit realm. I think the “we” is Dalinar and Odium together. It follows contextually from the conversation just had (it is pages later, but chronologically immediately after).

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"Unity" reminds me a lot of Dominion. Just saying. 

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On 11/25/2017 at 8:33 AM, Bliev said:

I think Odium is referring to Evi here as it’s what he immediately says after Dalinar hears “i forgive you” from the spirit realm. I think the “we” is Dalinar and Odium together. It follows contextually from the conversation just had (it is pages later, but chronologically immediately after).

The dead go to the Beyond, not the Spiritual Realm. And I guess it could be Evi, and Odium is just confused as to why she didn't go Beyond/how she returned from Beyond.

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