[OB]Knights Radiant List

[Edvarin]

I'm not convinced. The Stormfather didn't know about Venli and didn't say anything specific except, "Look, Heralds!" Also, the quote about her saying she should get a Shardblade works against this theory in my opinion. If she had over 4000 years to Bond a spren and hasn't sworn at least 2 or 3 oaths, then she hasn't sworn any imo. Nale has sworn all 5. I just don't think this argument is solid enough.

[Willow]

While I think it would be interesting if Ash became a Releaser, and it might fit her current, rather destructive tendencies, I believe Brandon Sanderson has said that while each book will focus on a different order of Radiant, these orders do not have to match up with the flashback character. We could get an Elsecaller book with a Willshaper character, or Dustbringer book with a Lightweaver character, or even with a non-Radiant. The first three books just happened to match up.

 

[The One Who Connects]

19 minutes ago, Rider of Storms said:

IIRC she's slated as the Dustbringer flashback character in the back five

You're equating the flashback character of a book with the order the book will focus on. They are two separate things, and Brandon has directly stated that they will not always match up. All the WoB says is that the book will have a flashback character, and that the book will focus on an Order.

On 10/17/2017 at 3:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

On a side-note, these WoB's provide us with several possibilities:

1. Shalash bonds a Spren and becomes a Dustbringer, allowing us to learn about the Dustbringers in her book.
2. Chana is indisposed(or dead) at the time of Shalash's book, so she takes command of the Dustbringers in the interim, allowing us to learn about Dustbringers in her book without her being a Dustbringer.
3. Shalash takes up Chana's Honorblade(for reasons), allowing us to learn different stuff about Dustbringer powers from her, and learning about the Order itself from some minor character like say.. Redin.

4. Shalash could be a member of literally any of the Orders, or none of them, during her flashback book, and we learn about Dustbringers from a different member of the primary three viewpoints(like Kal/Shallan in WoK/WoR).
5. Shalash could be dead at the time of her book(like Eshonai), and we learn about Dustbringers from whoever replaces her in the primary viewpoints.
6. Shalash x Dustbringer romance/professional relationship, allowing us to learn about Dustbringers from a more minor character involved in the main narrative. (Kinda like if we'd been learning about Shallan's order from Adolin's PoV of her, so Brandon can switch it up on us)
7. Literally anything else that would lead us to learn about the Dustbringers, so long as it is interspersed with Shalash's flashbacks in a way that makes sense.

Nothing Brandon has stated prevents any of these, but everyone seems to think it automatically has to be option 1, which is why I've gone back to using the phrase "connecting dots that aren't necessarily there."

[rjl]

Based on the combination of the various bits of anecdotal evidence I'd attach a high probability to Shallash becoming a Dustbringer BUT it's certainly a point of speculation at the moment - and I'd guess it will get RAFO'd if asked at a signing though someone could try.

[Edvarin]

Also, if Shalash was a Dustbringer, she wouldn't have needed a Shardblade in WoKs. Division is their primary Surge, so she would have access to it after the 1st oath. I doubt anything short of WoB would convince me at this point. It is an interesting theory though, that Heralds can join other Orders.

[Hulaine]

3 hours ago, Edvarin said:

Lightweavers - These Knights use the Illumination and Transformation Surges and follow the Herald Shalash. They Bond Cryptics. Creationspren are also associated with Lightweavers.

Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. After the 1st Ideal, they speak truths instead of oaths.

Known Lightweavers - Shallan Davar. Bonded to Pattern. Pretty sure we have WoB that she is one step ahead of Kaladin. So 4th Ideal. At least one possibly 3 squires including Vathah. It is suspected that Elhokar was about to Bond a Cryptic, which eventually left with Hoid.

I'm not sure about Shallan having spoken the 4th ideal - given that it's an important truth about her character, I'd be really surprised if it was sworn off-"screen".

I'm also fairly sure Shadeplate must be tied to the 4th ideal, and Shallan hasn't got her Shardplate yet. We know from Nale that most Skybreakers (at the very least, other orders may be similar) didn't swear the 5th ideal, and there's a fairly even number of blade and plate/plate was kind of important for fighting the Voidbringers. 

I'm working off of conjecture here, so if you've got the WoB to disprove the above I'd be interested to read it - could be that plate has nothing to do with the immortal words, but that's a whole other conversation! 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Hulaine

[Willow]

1 minute ago, Hulaine said:

I'm not sure about Shallan having spoken the 4th ideal - given that it's an important truth about her character, I'd be really surprised if it was sworn off-screen.

We have a WoB that Shallan is one step ahead of Kaladin as of the end of Words of Radiance. Since we've seen all of Kaladin's oaths on page, and he's at number three, Shallan must have sworn four oaths.

[Calderis]

Shallan is at the 4th. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156/#e2845

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

 

[Aleksiel]

Here are some relevant WoB regarding Shallan:

Quote

He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression."

 

Quote

 

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

 

 

Not exactly sure how both of those work together since Kal broke his oath and when he swore the next Ideal he became next third level WR. But Shallan should be level 4 at least, there were people speculating she could summon Plate, but has supressed that, too. There were some other hints, too, I don't remember the thread where I read them.

[Willow]

2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Not exactly sure how both of those work together since Kal broke his oath and when he swore the next Ideal he became next third level WR. But Shallan should be level 4 at least, there were people speculating she could summon Plate, but has supressed that, too. There were some other hints, too, I don't remember the thread where I read them.

Something I found really interesting when reading Shallan's chapters is that at one point she mentions 'the pain of an Ideal sworn, but not yet overcome'. While other orders like the Windrunners and the Bondsmiths, must first take the journey of understanding the next step, and then uttering their next oath as the culmination of that part of the journey (often doing so during an appropriately dramatic moment, of course), the Lightweavers, with their very personalized Truths, might be able to switch things around, first 'progressing', and only then overcoming the hurdle. Even though she has sworn the fourth Oath, she might not be able to summon Plate until she has truly faced her last Truth.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Willow

[thegatorgirl00]

25 minutes ago, Hulaine said:

I'm not sure about Shallan having spoken the 4th ideal - given that it's an important truth about her character, I'd be really surprised if it was sworn off-"screen".

I'm also fairly sure Shadeplate must be tied to the 4th ideal, and Shallan hasn't got her Shardplate yet. We know from Nale that most Skybreakers (at the very least, other orders may be similar) didn't swear the 5th ideal, and there's a fairly even number of blade and plate/plate was kind of important for fighting the Voidbringers. 

I'm working off of conjecture here, so if you've got the WoB to disprove the above I'd be interested to read it - could be that plate has nothing to do with the immortal words, but that's a whole other conversation! 

The truths were 'I am afraid' 'I killed my father' and 'I killed my mother'. There are also some hints that Shallan actually did summon Shardplate during the last battle and didn't realize/intend it. 

Quote

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair.

And then after the battle

Quote

“Here,” Radiant said, tired, stumbling to her feet. She was the one Jasnah could feel.

 

[Khyrindor]

1 hour ago, Edvarin said:

I don't think that the Stormfather is commenting on Dalinars line of thought. I think he was bringing up another topic which he thought was important. I don't recall it saying anything about her being a Dustbringer. Could you point me to a quote in the book or something?

I don't have a physical copy of the book at this point, but give this thread a read and see what you think:

 

[Hulaine]

49 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

1 hour ago, Hulaine said:

I'm not sure about Shallan having spoken the 4th ideal - given that it's an important truth about her character, I'd be really surprised if it was sworn off-"screen".

I'm also fairly sure Shadeplate must be tied to the 4th ideal, and Shallan hasn't got her Shardplate yet. We know from Nale that most Skybreakers (at the very least, other orders may be similar) didn't swear the 5th ideal, and there's a fairly even number of blade and plate/plate was kind of important for fighting the Voidbringers. 

I'm working off of conjecture here, so if you've got the WoB to disprove the above I'd be interested to read it - could be that plate has nothing to do with the immortal words, but that's a whole other conversation! 

The truths were 'I am afraid' 'I killed my father' and 'I killed my mother'. There are also some hints that Shallan actually did summon Shardplate during the last battle and didn't realize/intend it. 

Quote

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair.

And then after the battle

Quote

“Here,” Radiant said, tired, stumbling to her feet. She was the one Jasnah could feel.

Now that I can get behind -  I'd not realised the "I'm afraid" counted as a truth, but it does make sense. I've re-read the end section a couple of times so far, but until you'd put the two lines together it just didn't click! 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Aleksiel said:

Not exactly sure how both of those work together since Kal broke his oath and when he swore the next Ideal he became next third level WR.

So, there was this rather old discussion(that I'm having trouble finding) about how Kal might have resaid his earlier Oaths off-screen before swearing the Third Oath near the end of WoR.

Given how Shallan appears to have lost her progress and had to resay her Oaths in order to progress, I'd say Kaladin probably had to speak his earlier Oaths too.

[Dahak]

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I was wondering where we got the idea that lightspren bond willshapers? I got the impression that the reachers were the ones that bonded them given the interest in travel? I'm not saying I'm right, simply my own impression. Info would be appreciated.

Reacher is IIRC another name for Lightspren.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

So, there was this rather old discussion(that I'm having trouble finding) about how Kal might have resaid his earlier Oaths off-screen before swearing the Third Oath near the end of WoR.

Given how Shallan appears to have lost her progress and had to resay her Oaths in order to progress, I'd say Kaladin probably had to speak his earlier Oaths too.

I think the main difference is that pattern was never "Dead" from broken oaths. The bond just degraded. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221/#e7874

Quote

Kythis

How did Pattern actually become a shardblade even though he hadn't been fully pulled into the physical realm?

Brandon Sanderson

He had been pulled into the physical realm before when Shallan was younger, and she almost broke her bond.  And in so doing . . . 

Kythis

But he didn't go mad.

Brandon Sanderson

She didn't completely break the bond.  She didn't reject him completely.  But it was dangerous there for a while.  

 

[Khyrindor]

2 hours ago, Edvarin said:

I'm not convinced. The Stormfather didn't know about Venli and didn't say anything specific except, "Look, Heralds!" Also, the quote about her saying she should get a Shardblade works against this theory in my opinion. If she had over 4000 years to Bond a spren and hasn't sworn at least 2 or 3 oaths, then she hasn't sworn any imo. Nale has sworn all 5. I just don't think this argument is solid enough.

I think that it was meant to imply that Ash is a Dustbringer, but Brandon wrote it poorly.

[Edvarin]

2 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

The truths were 'I am afraid' 'I killed my father' and 'I killed my mother'. There are also some hints that Shallan actually did summon Shardplate during the last battle and didn't realize/intend it. 

thegatorgirl00 What about the one where she said that all Shardblades were flawed. All except for hers? This might give credence to the regression through memory loss theory. And that was an awesome catch on Radiant wearing the Shardplate. I thought it was just an illusion at first, but she was Radiant when Jasnah came looking for her.

 

As for the Shalash is a Dustbringer theory, I'll make a note of it.

[kari-no-sugata]

2 hours ago, Willow said:

Something I found really interesting when reading Shallan's chapters is that at one point she mentions 'the pain of an Ideal sworn, but not yet overcome'. While other orders like the Windrunners and the Bondsmiths, must first take the journey of understanding the next step, and then uttering their next oath as the culmination of that part of the journey (often doing so during an appropiately dramatic moment, of course), the Lightweavers, with their very personalized Truths, might be able to switch things around, first 'progressing', and only then overcoming the hurdle.

Yeah, there's quite a few differences and I did some posts on this during the weekly tor.com discussion, before the full book was out.

Seems to be something like:

For Lightweavers prior to speaking the Ideal: need to be willing to admit to some deep secret that they would prefer to ignore. For Lightweavers after speaking the Ideal: forced to confront their dark secret at possible cost to their sanity. If they fail badly they could regress (or commit suicide or maybe even deliberately kill their spren). If they deal with it poorly they'll probably never to be able to progress again.

For other known Orders prior to speaking the Ideal: need to sense/determine what the Ideal is and be ready to live it. For other known Orders after speaking the Ideals: how difficult it is to live those Ideals would depend upon the situation - some Ideals could be easy to uphold on a desert island, for example. If they fail to live up to the Ideal then they would regress. If they deal with it poorly they'll probably never be able to progress again.

For Lightweavers, it's all internal. It would be interesting to see if this can be confirmed but my guess is that if a Lightweaver doesn't have enough "lies" that are big enough to qualify for an Ideal/Truth then they would be stuck at that level. Eg, if Shallan had no more major lies left in her life then she wouldn't be able to advance again. So if a Lightweaver can confront all their lies properly (whether it's 1, 2, 3 or 4) then they could probably reach a happy balance and be fairly unconstrained in their behaviour/actions (so long as they don't develop new major internal lies). But how many actually survive the mental challenges?

 

2 hours ago, Willow said:

Even though she has sworn the fourth Oath, she might not be able to summon Plate until she has truly faced her last Truth.

It'll be interesting to see how it works. Do all Orders get the Shardblade in the same way? Do all Orders get Shardplate in the same way or at the same level? For example, some Orders might get Shardplate immediately on swearing the necessary Ideal while with others perhaps it requires an extra step. Or maybe it requires an extra step for everyone?

For Shallan, I don't think it would be something fuzzy like "has truly faced her last Truth" though - seems a bit too arbitrary.

[Willow]

8 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It'll be interesting to see how it works. Do all Orders get the Shardblade in the same way? Do all Orders get Shardplate in the same way or at the same level? For example, some Orders might get Shardplate immediately on swearing the necessary Ideal while with others perhaps it requires an extra step. Or maybe it requires an extra step for everyone?

For Shallan, I don't think it would be something fuzzy like "has truly faced her last Truth" though - seems a bit too arbitrary.

I did read the weekly Tor discussion, but to be honest, there were so many comments there I probably skipped right past the ones discussing this.

And yeah, my comment was rather vague (though to clarify, with 'last', I meant her fourth truth), because I have no idea how Shallan is going to be able to do this (why isn't book four here yet.. ). I have a suspicion it has something to do with her Brightness Radiant persona though. Radiant was created to deal with the pain from this Truth, and as @Hulaine noted, in the battle of Thaylen City, she already had Shardplate. Was that an illusion? We'll have to see..

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

So, there was this rather old discussion(that I'm having trouble finding) about how Kal might have resaid his earlier Oaths off-screen before swearing the Third Oath near the end of WoR.

But Kaladin re-oathed on-screen, not off-screen:

Quote

WoR Ch 84: (snipped for size, and bolding is mine)

Yelling? Very distant? He knew that voice. . . .

“Syl?” Kaladin whispered, blood on his lips. “Syl?”

Nothing.

“I ran until . . . until I couldn’t any longer,” Kaladin whispered. “End of . . . the race.”

Life before death.

“I will do it.” Graves. “I will bear this burden.”

“It is my right!” Moash said.

He blinked, eyes resting on the king’s unconscious body just beside him. Still breathing.

I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.

It made sense, now, why he’d had to make this choice. ...

The Words, Kaladin. That was Syl’s voice. You have to speak the Words!

I FORBID THIS.

YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!

“I will protect even those I hate,” Kaladin whispered through bloody lips. “So long as it is right.”

A Shardblade appeared in Moash’s hands.

A distant rumbling. Thunder.

THE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED, the Stormfather said reluctantly.

I believe you don't necessarily have to verbalize them to re-oath, you just have to rededicate yourself to the oaths you have sworn. In recalling them and realizing why they mattered to his decision and making the decision that aligns with the oaths he met the requirements to make the third oath.

As for Shallan, it would likely be different. The "truths" of her childhood would not necessarily be the truths for her now. She had to have been at least 3rd ideal to kill her mother so her mother's death could not have been a "truth" that won her the third ideal as a child. Having lost all the ideals except the first because of the trauma of killing her parents, she had to recognize new truths about herself to reclaim the ideals.  

[Edvarin]

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

As for Shallan, it would likely be different. The "truths" of her childhood would not necessarily be the truths for her now. She had to have been at least 3rd ideal to kill her mother so her mother's death could not have been a "truth" that won her the third ideal as a child. Having lost all the ideals except the first because of the trauma of killing her parents, she had to recognize new truths about herself to reclaim the ideals.  

You are correct Treamayne. The truth about killing her mother was spoken at the end of WoR in Urithuru.

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

But Kaladin re-oathed on-screen, not off-screen:

So he did. (But then why was there debate on the subject back then..? Whatever) Gosh I need to reread these books sometime.

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I believe you don't necessarily have to verbalize them to re-oath, you just have to rededicate yourself to the oaths you have sworn.

I can agree with that, especially since Lift "spoke" an Oath internally in Edgedancer. I think it's just human nature to think out loud, as it were. Speaking about something helps focus your mind on it, but we don't necessarily have to speak to focus. I'd probably say the oaths out loud while rededicating, but Kaladin didn't.

I like your idea about Shallan too, hadn't really given her past oaths much thought beyond "they happened." In light of the Third Ideal via Teft, I'm curious if Kaladin's more straightforward Oaths would've been different had he changed as much as Shallan had in her regressed state.

[thegatorgirl00]

3 hours ago, Edvarin said:

thegatorgirl00 What about the one where she said that all Shardblades were flawed. All except for hers? This might give credence to the regression through memory loss theory. And that was an awesome catch on Radiant wearing the Shardplate. I thought it was just an illusion at first, but she was Radiant when Jasnah came looking for her.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. I agree that Shallan was at a further state when she was younger; although getting a Shardblade can vary by order, I doubt any would give it after the first ideal. I also agree that she almost broke her bond because her memory regressed. I think she had to say the truths again to strengthen the bond, not just remember she had the bond and Pattern. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by thegatorgirl00

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. I agree that Shallan was at a further state when she was younger; although getting a Shardblade can vary by order, I doubt any would give it after the first ideal. I also agree that she almost broke her bond because her memory regressed. I think she had to say the truths again to strengthen the bond, not just remember she had the bond and Pattern. 

She did, and she didn't. Part of it was respeaking truths to strengthen the bond, but part of it was just acknowledging that the bond existed. For example... 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86/#e5675

Quote

Havoc (paraphrased)

In Way of Kings, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from Words of Radiance that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She would not have been able to. Good question! Wow. No one has ever asked me that before.

By my understanding, this is the moment that really reawakens Pattern. Directly after she thinks of the blade, she hears a voice in her mind, and then speaks what seems to be her first truth in rebuilding her bond. 

Quote

She screamed then, jumping to her feet on her bed, dropping the pad, backing against the wall. Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn’t know how to use it. She was helpless.

Except …

Storms! she thought, frantic. I can’t use that. I promised myself.

She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act. She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct:

What are you?

She clutched her hand to her chest, losing her balance on the soft bed, falling to her knees on the rumpled blanket. She put one hand to the side, steadying herself on the nightstand, fingers brushing the large glass goblet that sat there.

“What am I?” she whispered. “I’m terrified.”