[OB] Odium is not the Shard of Hate

[heridfel]

For a Shardholder that we believed to have the Shard of Hate, which was taken on by a nasty person to begin with, Odium comes off as surprisingly calm. He sees himself as being the Shard of Passion, and others note that he seems to feed on passion. However, I think that for as long as he has been around and influenced by the Shard, he still seems too in control of himself for either hatred or passion to be his main focus. Instead, I think that he is the Shard of Betrayals. This would explain a lot of things.

We find out that Odium is a human god, but he is leading the Listeners/Singers against the humans. The Stormlight Archive starts with nine of the ten Heralds betraying the last one so that they can avoid further torture. All of the humans which Odium or his Fused recruit (or attempt to recruit, in the case of Dalinar) are betraying humanity: Moash, Amaram, and Taravangian all join with Odium not because they believe his side to be the right one, but because they believe his side is the stronger one or because of personal benefits. This sets them apart from Nin and the Skybreakers, who join for reasons of morality, even if that morality has been twisted.

If Odium is the Shardholder of Betrayal, he would still be able to make long-term plans, act calmly rather than passionately all the time, and it would explain how he could continue to destroy other Shards since Betrayal is nearly as destructive as Ruin. The only trouble I have with the theory is explaining how he could be held by the Oathpact, but maybe it is as simple as “you cannot betray someone unless they trust you”, and so he has to be able to act in a way to make others trust him in order to fulfill his Shard’s Intent. Thoughts?

[emailanimal]

Despite the Old Reptile not wanting to interfere, I still trust Frost:

 

Quote

 He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

 

God's divine hatred. Not betrayal.

 

[autopilot_off]

Just because he has the shard of hate does not mean he has to be a raving lunatic. Ruin for example, despite his full intent to destroy Scadrial, was calm and calculating. Ruin came up with an entire plan to be released and further subtlty manipulate others to his own means. From his talks with Vin he seemed like a sane person in my opinion. So why not Odium? Odium has killed other shards. Even in real life serial killers and psychotics can be calm, calculating, and blend in well into society. 

[Zalocx]

Yeah I trust the super-cosmerically aware Hoid and Frost talking to each other more than what Odium tells the pretty naive Dalinar here. If Odium was really "Passion" or "Betrayal" he would have been called that. I find it pretty incredulous that all the Shards so far have been pegged pretty correctly with their Names=Intent except for this one. 

Also I never liked the idea that even if Odium was Hate that he couldn't be calm or couldn't plan stuff. Its one of the arguments against the idea that Odium is one of if not *the* best at Future Sight among the 16: That "Hatred" can't possibly be cool and collected and good at foresight. Which makes no sense to me, since literature is filled to the brim with character's motivated by hatred that are exactly that. Look at any of Poe's short stories: his protagonists commit murder based almost exclusively on an irrational sense of hate for their victims and plan it so they almost never get caught until their own guilt or other moral failings compromise them, or just never get caught ever i.e. The Casque of Amontillado, but their planning and execution is always impeccable.

Hatred is not Rage. Rayse being calm and coming off as "kindly" is perfectly in character for him. In fact I pretty much expected him to end up being really personable and even likable when he showed up. People read that he has killed 4 other shards and is called Odium and start thinking he's Jason Voorhees whereas I always imagined demigod Hannibal Lecter: smart, sophisticated, charismatic, and able to pull off multiple murders because he is always 5 steps ahead of everyone else..   

[heridfel]

Well, I have to acknowledge that evidence hurts my theory. It is possible that Frost was speaking poetically, but that is about all it could be unless Frost is wrong about the nature of Rayse’s Shard (which I still think is possible - old and Cosmere-aware doesn’t mean omniscient - but unlikely). 

I still think that something is going on which makes Odium different - I know we have not seen many original Shardholders who haven’t been near-death and capable of interacting with “normal” humans, but the way Odium feeds on passion/hatred/self-hatred does not seem to fit.

[Egomere]

Hatred can come in many forms and for many reasons. (Cold calculating hatred, hatred inflammed by passion blah blah)

3 minutes ago, heridfel said:

I still think that something is going on which makes Odium different - I know we have not seen many original Shardholders who haven’t been near-death and capable of interacting with “normal” humans, but the way Odium feeds on passion/hatred/self-hatred does not seem to fit.

And on to this it is quite possible that because Rayse was never a nice person BEFORE he picked the shard up and so the two working together (Rayse as Shardholder to God's Divine Hatred) might mean that the 'personality' control of the two is more aligned than we have seen before - as well as being stronger - as in he has retained alot of 'human' characteristics. In the balance.

Similar possibly to Harmony is still Sazed (but due to the shards being mirrors to each other Ruin vs Preservation he doesn't have the power to act for one - only balanced.

Rayse as Hatred has no conflicting shard to counterbalance him (if it could because Rayse still wants power - hence why he splintered shards rather than pick them up like Sazed)

we have only really seen weakened and splintered shards so far elsewhere - just remants of power so we have no real idea what a Single Shardholder is like.

 

[Awesomness]

8 hours ago, heridfel said:

He sees himself as being the Shard of Passion, and others note that he seems to feed on passion. However, I think that for as long as he has been around and influenced by the Shard, he still seems too in control of himself for either hatred or passion to be his main focus. Instead, I think that he is the Shard of Betrayals.

Hate can be a cold think.  In fact "cold hate" (and/or passion) is stronger and goes on the long term --> as in the Count of Montecristo: guy spends 20 years planning revenge so its poetic and perfect.

"Hot Hate" is a sort of anger.

[PhineasGage]

If Odium represents hate, presumably he could be both "hot hate " and "cold hate" - I mean, why not? The Intent of a Shard is generally all encompassing within it's purview so it seems that he could therefore use both sides of the hateful coin. Cultivation has the Intent to grow things - she even specifically mentions that this includes the thorns - even though this might result in a situation that actually leads to her death/destruction. She cannot go against the nature. BUT if Odium hates (referring to the chapter title The One Who Hates - in WoR) he could manipulate the situation so that he feels cold hatred sometimes and passionate hatred others. It would allow him to imply he is the god of Passion, as he attempts to do with Dalinar, but really it is only a mask - underneath it is hatred. I guess he was likely trying to undermine Dalinar's confidence that Odium is actually the enemy but underestimated Dalinar's ability to cope with looking at the "real" Odium (I mean Dalinar did  go on to ascend) .

[Yata]

I think the Shard iself is Passion but Rayse's attitude push the Shard into the Odium-like status we see.

Odium himself stated that his name is fitting but not too much of what he is.

Notice the Shard's names aren't set into Stone. Someone decided to call a Shard in a certain way, for example we have Harmony and a WoB saying he could have another name if the Vessel was not so good to balance the two parts

[Ari]

11 minutes ago, Yata said:

I think the Shard iself is Passion but Rayse's attitude push the Shard into the Odium-like status we see.

Odium himself stated that his name is fitting but not too much of what he is.

Notice the Shard's names aren't set into Stone. Someone decided to call a Shard in a certain way, for example we have Harmony and a WoB saying he could have another name if the Vessel was not so good to balance the two parts

Is Frost simply wrong then, when he refers to Odium as "God's divine hatred?"

It could be that Frost is underselling the nuance to Odium's overall Intent, which includes some degree of wider emphasis on emotion, and I'm on-board with that in context of OB. But Frost specifically says (at least some of) the Hatred inherent to Odium as he is now comes from Adonalsium, so we need a Reason Why Frost Is Wrong to go any further than "Frost neglected to mention that there is more to Odium than just hate." (and the reason for the lesser hypothesis should be obvious: Frost and Hoid are both likely to already know that, so aren't going to discuss it in great detail unless they need to in order to make a point in their own discussion. The greater hypothesis you're claiming, however, would require Frost being mistaken or deliberately lying to Hoid)

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

If Odium represents hate, presumably he could be both "hot hate " and "cold hate" - I mean, why not? The Intent of a Shard is generally all encompassing within it's purview so it seems that he could therefore use both sides of the hateful coin. Cultivation has the Intent to grow things - she even specifically mentions that this includes the thorns - even though this might result in a situation that actually leads to her death/destruction. She cannot go against the nature. BUT if Odium hates (referring to the chapter title The One Who Hates - in WoR) he could manipulate the situation so that he feels cold hatred sometimes and passionate hatred others. It would allow him to imply he is the god of Passion, as he attempts to do with Dalinar, but really it is only a mask - underneath it is hatred. I guess he was likely trying to undermine Dalinar's confidence that Odium is actually the enemy but underestimated Dalinar's ability to cope with looking at the "real" Odium (I mean Dalinar did  go on to ascend) .

We have a WoB from well before OB that says that Odium's Intent is bi-directional: that is, he doesn't just hate others, he wants to inspire their hatred, too.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Ari

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, Ari said:

We have a WoB from well before OB that says that Odium's Intent is bi-directional: that is, he doesn't just hate others, he wants to inspire their hatred, too.

I didn't know this - thanks. It suggests that he is actually all aspects of hatred - if you can think of a way to hate or inspire hate, Odium can do it.

It also therefore includes self-hatred.

Hate can be an attractive force, but I think Odium also likely includes loathing.

[Yata]

@Calderis I simply believe Frost's words are more loose than we thought before OB.

It's possible that Rayse's Shard incapsulates Extreme emotions (what I called Passion before) at all and in this he also carries God's divine wrath with it. It's a shard of extremes,

Maybe I have to considerate this better, but I assume it's a plausible hypotesis

Edited November 24, 2017 by Yata

[Subvisual Haze]

I'm uncertain.  We know that Odium/Rayse are required to adhere to their pacts and deals due to an inherent property of the shards of Adonalsium, but this does not mean that they can't lie or deceive.  So we do need to take anything he says with a big grain of salt.

The original intent of his shard being "Passion" does make sense though.  A shard of base emotion could be incredibly destructive if not balanced with human logic.  Rage, gluttony, lust etc. 

Passion/emotion becomes even more dangerous in the way that Rayse/Odium seems to have applied it in a very consequence-free manner.  Indulge in all your crazy emotions/passions now, but don't take accountability for them or dwell on them in the future.  Surrender your pain and uncomfortable emotions to the void.  This, as well as the particular focus on the emotions of hatred, could likely be attributed to how Rayse interprets and applies the intent of the Passion shard.

[thegatorgirl00]

One thing I find particularly interesting about Odium's Intent is the existence of Ashertmarn. Rather than embodying any of the traditional ideas of hatred, it is instead the ultimate portrayal of gluttony. This, to me, indicates there is more to Odium than we think. 

Brandon has said that the intent can change based on how the holder interpreted ot. Ati interpreted Ruin in the least destructive way possible. I think Rayse interpreted Odium in the most destructive way possible, in the way @Subvisual Haze said. 

[Nymeros]

50 minutes ago, Yata said:

It's possible that Rayse's Shard incapsulates Extreme emotions (what I called Passion before) at all and in this he also carries God's divine wrath with it. It's a shard of extremes,

This is apparently correct.

Hatred is just the most dangerous of the extreme emotions he embodies and the one which paints him unambiguously as an enemy.

Quote

This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside.

Burning.

Overwhelming.

Power.

It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.

It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.

It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.

And it was hatred.

I don't see how he could somehow show Dalinar a false truth of his Intent.

 

I must say....I prefer him being simply Odium......it's cooler than Passion in my opinion.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Nymeros

[Calderis]

@Yata... Why have a I been summoned? I am uninvested here.

I must flee now before I'm trapped. 

[Subvisual Haze]

Also on a meta-narrative level, extreme emotion/passion makes more sense as a fundamental component of God (Adonalasium), than just pure hatred.

[Calderis]

"Passion" is often used to justify extreme harmful emotions. 

"why is he always so angry?" 

"he's just a passionate person." 

I have no doubt that Odium is the Shard. The intents we've seen have all had broad meanings yes, but they are filled with purpose. 

Passion just seems to broad. Passion can be for any emotion. 

Or it can be a justification. 

[emailanimal]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

I think the Shard iself is Passion but Rayse's attitude push the Shard into the Odium-like status we see.

I would venture a guess that if you asked Brandon about it his response would be "Odium would like to think of his Intent as Passion."

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Yata... Why have a I been summoned? I am uninvested here.

I must flee now before I'm trapped. 

A simple error of mine, I don't know how...but I switched you with Ari and I was answering to you (Ari),

56 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

I would venture a guess that if you asked Brandon about it his response would be "Odium would like to think of his Intent as Passion."

Well yeah, it's possible to be the opposite, but watching on how the Odium's agents work (the Heart of the Rever and the Fused) I think the Passion is something intimate related to the power itself rather than the Vessel

[DiamondMind]

There's also something really weird about how Odium seems to feed on hate, pain, and other strong emotions. He is called the Void for a reason. Why exactly would Dalinar accepting that Odium is responsible give Odium control? I think that we're still missing something big.

[digitalbusker]

13 hours ago, DiamondMind said:

There's also something really weird about how Odium seems to feed on hate, pain, and other strong emotions. He is called the Void for a reason. Why exactly would Dalinar accepting that Odium is responsible give Odium control? I think that we're still missing something big.

Not saying there isn't also a Realmatic dimension, but on a basic level crediting Odium for your shameful actions is a lie that puts you in his debt, while reinforcing the idea that he can control you in the future. 

[+Bliev]

On 11/24/2017 at 0:14 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

Also on a meta-narrative level, extreme emotion/passion makes more sense as a fundamental component of God (Adonalasium), than just pure hatred.

I wrote this on another thread (pasted below, and including the link), but i really do find Odium and its intent fascinating for all the reasons you note.

I interpreted this: //"Burning. Overwhelming. Power. It as the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield. It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy. It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory. And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt."//

As indicating "the burden of God's divine hatred"--in that it is everything that God "hates" and the anger shown in the hatred of it, so not just the emotion of hatred, but the embodiment of what God himself would proclaim to hate: selfishness, power, angry, murder, lust, emotion devoid of focus. All of this filtered through what Rayse himself hated--which is probably the idea of God himself and all who now embody portions of him/Adolnasium. It even seems like he's willing to give himself to others as the focus/object of their hate: "blame me--I did this" in order to channel that emotion into Odium's own power--a self-fulfilling cycle of hatred. Sustaining hatred at that level is too much.

Which also, to me, would explain why Odium might have splintered off the more uncontrollable parts of god's hatred: gluttony/lust, passion for the kill, etc. They interfered with his ability to strategize. But I don't know about that. Those splinters now have their own separate intentions, which Odium obviously has no idea might act differently when divorced from his divine hatred. 

[Aleph-Naught]

On 11/24/2017 at 8:29 AM, Yata said:

@Calderis I simply believe Frost's words are more loose than we thought before OB.

It's possible that Rayse's Shard encapsulates extreme emotions (what I called Passion before) ... and in this he also carries God's divine wrath ... It's a shard of extremes,

This is how I interpreted it as well; he bears god's divine hatred, in addition to many other emotions a person can have. Odium could be the name he was given simply for propaganda purposes - when you're able to tar your enemy as an evil, all-hating, shard, it's much easier to get people to align against it.

[teknopathetic]

I believe if Adolin had taken the shard, he would be have been called Passion, but because Rayse was such a hateful person, the shard ended up learning towards Odium instead of something more neutral. Another name for his shard would likely be Excess. 

 

Another curiosity is that the other shards think Odium likely a force or beast at this point, and not really a human sentience at all, yet that doesn't match up with what we have seen. Odium still has a human aspect, and even if that aspect is a facade, there is still a sentience in there as far as we can tell. Are the other Shards correct in naming him Odium, if they are wrong about his mental state?