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Theory: Sja-anat and Cultivation


Necessary Eagle

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1. I am, like, 99% certain Cultivation inspired the Diagram

"It sure is suspicious" that Taravangian managed to figure out all those secret things about Roshar just from being really smart. The primary candidates for giving Mr. T a helping hand have been Odium and Cultivation. Odium's reaction to the Diagram at the end of OB implies that it's the first time he's seen it- and more importantly, there are parts that he can't perceive. It seems reasonable to me that the only being that can hide things from a Shard would be another Shard.

And which bits can't Odium see? Something about Renarin Kholin. (Who, it may or may not be relevant, was the one who wrote the Diagram in WoK Prime).   

2. Renarin the sorta-Radiant and Glys the sorta-voidspren

The most unique thing about Renarin, of course, is that he bonded a corrupted spren. Whatever that means. As far as I can can tell from Renarin's PoVs, Glys is solidly on Team Kick Odium's Chull Back To Braize. This despite the fact that he was remade by an Unmade, and (as per Argent's Secret Hint) gives access to Voidbinding.

I think Glys used to be a normal Truthwatcher spren, because he does give regular Progression, and because Renarin's visions sound like a corrupted version of normal Truthwatcher resonance.

There's a very popular theory around here that the top of the Surgebinding diagram is the orders and spren closest to Honor, and the bottom is the closest to Cultivation. Truthwatchers are right in the double eye, smack in the middle of the presumed Cultivation-centric spren.

3. Sja-Anat

Sja-anat, despite being an Unmade, wants to defect. I think this must be a recent development, or Odium would have noticed. If the epigraphs are to be believed, her ability to corrupt bondspren is a recent thing, too.

4. Theorycrafting: Cultivation's long game

Renarin might just be a central piece in Cultivation's long game.

What if Cultivation is working with Sja-anat to help her break free from Odium? Subtly, at first, so that at the right moment S-a can switch sides without getting squished by her former boss.

What if Cultivation deliberately sent Glys to Sja-anat, to be corrupted in a very specific way which would further Cultivation's plans? Maybe she even helped S-a with the corruption process, which is why S-a was able to "enlighten" a bondspren in the first place.

Thus, Odium eventually loses one of his nine strongest minions. And Team Honor-Cultivation gains a new type of Radiant, one that, for some reason, is in Odium's blind spot.

 

Edited by Necessary Eagle
forgot to put OB in the title
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Taking this one step forward, if cultivation did help sja anat with the corruption process then maybe together they could figure out a way to uncorrupt normal voidspren or even the fused, divesting them from their odious investiture.

As well as that, it's not just one potential new type of radiant- it has the potential to create a new form for every order 

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The Truthwatcher spren had been corrupted at least by the time of the last desolation. The gemstone library has Truthwatchers claiming that they had seen the future and that they were scared by it. That could have still been a plan by Cultivation, but its a 4000+ year plan. 

The Unmade are called Unmade for a reason. Seems likely that over time, and with experience, they could be reformed into whatever they used to be. Hooefully Sja-Anat isngetting her groove back. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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  • 4 months later...

I was going to post a new theory, but this one jives so closely, I will just agree and amplify. 

1) As a rule, you should never make a deal with the devil. However, Odium should be a LOT more suspicious. There is no way (normally)  for Mr T to match wits with Odium, but if he is having one of his genius days, then all bets are off. 

Cultivation seems to be cultivating things in such a way that Odium can't see it. Seeing the future is trickier than we (or Odium or the KR)  usually realize. 

2) The Parshendi/Parshmen will have evolved to be able to bond H/C higher spren. Odium's control is no longer a given, BUT HE CAN NOT SEE THIS. We may also see interesting things with the hybrids (Herdazians, Horneaters, Natanians, etc.) 

2b) The Radiants will begin to gain Zoid-binding surges, right under Odium's nose, but he will not realize it. 

3) The Unmade and especially S-A will be guided (cultivated) to take the oaths and become honor(ish) spren. Losing his godspren will make Odium mad, but the mixing of powers will drive him insane. This could result in entirely new orders of Radiants. 

3b) If Ishar becomes a full and total traitor, could he take the Bondsmiths with him? Considering the Stormfather is our source of Stormlight, this could pose multiple problems. If we can use Voidlight, we might be able to work around it. 

4) Cultivation has a lot of surprises for Odium. Those surprises will be a dish best served cold and he will walk right into it thinking he can see the future. 

4b) Before this is all done, the KR will have seized most/all of his surges and a lot of his power. Humanity is going to see some hard times, but it is nothing in comparison to what Cultivation (Mrs Honor) has in store for Odium. 

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4 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Sja- anat didn't corrupt glys though, right ? Sja-anat can only corrupt "lesser" spren, no ?

Or did i misread that ?

In the past she was only known to do so, but she appears to have discovered how to manage it. During the Shadesmar sequence, when she contacts Shallan via the corrupted gloryspren, she says that Shallan does not trust her... And that Shallan should speak to her son. 

Sja-anat thinks if those she "enlightens" as her children, and the only corrupted spren we've seen that would be capable of speech are Glys... And the Oathgate spren, which I also doubt would qualify as the "lesser spren" she was limited to in the past. 

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6 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Sja- anat didn't corrupt glys though, right ? Sja-anat can only corrupt "lesser" spren, no ?

Or did i misread that ?

It’s  stated by an in-world scholar that the old Radiants claimed it was impossible to corrupt a bondspren. It’s unclear when Sja-anat actually gained this ability, but she (albeit arguably) refers to Glys as her son while talking to Shallan in Kholinar, implying that she managed to “enlighten” him. Additionally, remember that she was recently able to corrupt an Oathgate spren... it seems to me like her power is somehow growing. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

In the past she was only known to do so, but she appears to have discovered how to manage it. During the Shadesmar sequence, when she contacts Shallan via the corrupted gloryspren, she says that Shallan does not trust her... And that Shallan should speak to her son. 

Sja-anat thinks if those she "enlightens" as her children, and the only corrupted spren we've seen that would be capable of speech are Glys... And the Oathgate spren, which I also doubt would qualify as the "lesser spren" she was limited to in the past. 

Isn't that assuming glys is a corrupted spren in the first place ? Which we don't know for sure ?

All spren corrupted by sja anat are recognizable for the spren they used be, when jasnah confronts renarin about glys she has a picture of what the real truthwatcher spren should look like, and doesn't remark on any simularities or even question that the spren just seems "off", she knows 100% its the wrong spren. Couldnt glys be the type of spren the parshendi use to make nightform (least i think its nightform, dont have the book to hand)

1 hour ago, EddyJ said:

It’s  stated by an in-world scholar that the old Radiants claimed it was impossible to corrupt a bondspren. It’s unclear when Sja-anat actually gained this ability, but she (albeit arguably) refers to Glys as her son while talking to Shallan in Kholinar, implying that she managed to “enlighten” him. Additionally, remember that she was recently able to corrupt an Oathgate spren... it seems to me like her power is somehow growing. 

Isn't it just an assumption sja anat learned to corrupt bond spren ? Or have i missed something ?

 

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@IronBars Renarin himself thinks about How Glys has told him that, he was changed, though he doesn't remember much from before. Add in the red color for co-opted investiture, and even if he wasn't a Truthwatcher spren, and it's capability of a Nahel bond... I think there's quite a bit of evidence as to Glys' corruption.  

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32 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Isn't that assuming glys is a corrupted spren in the first place ? Which we don't know for sure ?

All spren corrupted by sja anat are recognizable for the spren they used be, when jasnah confronts renarin about glys she has a picture of what the real truthwatcher spren should look like, and doesn't remark on any simularities or even question that the spren just seems "off", she knows 100% its the wrong spren. Couldnt glys be the type of spren the parshendi use to make nightform (least i think its nightform, dont have the book to hand)

Isn't it just an assumption sja anat learned to corrupt bond spren ? Or have i missed something ?

 

This is in the Coppormind with a reference to the relevant chapter in OB: “Glys looks different than regular Truthwatcher spren because Glys has been corrupted through contact with Sja-anat[5]

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I agree with @Calderis

About why the new ability to corrupt True Spren. Maybe the Honor's death could be a factor, before Radiant Spren were chunks of H&C but both those part were still part of a whole (the two Shards themself) now once of the side (Honor) is gone and the Spren is no more connected to the whole. This could leave the spren less protected than they used to be.

Much more if the other Shards denies her protection of a Spren... Glys could be the outcome of Cultivation allowing him to be corrupted by the Unmade to fuitfill a purpose.

Another option is the Taker of Secrets was always able to corrupt True Spren but this is very taxing and she would never do it into a Desolation because this would incapacitate her for a long time

Edited by Yata
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14 hours ago, Calderis said:

@IronBars Renarin himself thinks about How Glys has told him that, he was changed, though he doesn't remember much from before. Add in the red color for co-opted investiture, and even if he wasn't a Truthwatcher spren, and it's capability of a Nahel bond... I think there's quite a bit of evidence as to Glys' corruption.  

Renarin is about as unreliable a narrator as Shallan is, and id imagine glys would lie if he was a true odium spren ie the ones the listeners use to create nightform.

I agree what you say is most likely what happened but shouldn't be treated as fact when at this point it is just supposition and could go either way.

14 hours ago, EddyJ said:

This is in the Coppormind with a reference to the relevant chapter in OB: “Glys looks different than regular Truthwatcher spren because Glys has been corrupted through contact with Sja-anat[5]

Again thats just supposition at this point, coppernind also calls Renarin a truthwatcher which he most certainly isn't at this point.

 

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I was going to call Renarin a Possibility-Watcher, but the thesaurus says one of its synonyms is hope, which sounds much more Radiant. So I propose we call Renarin a Hope-Watcher. 

That leaves him with close ties to the Truth-Watchers, while also pointing out the unusual aspect of his truth-sense. 

Edited by ZenBossanova
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Whether or not Renarin is a legitimate Truthwatcher or not is a matter of technicalities at this point.  I would say that he qualifies, some would disagree.  More importantly, we're not sure how much of Renarin's abilities are Voidbinding, and how much is regular Surgebinding.  We know that some ancient Truthwatchers could see the future, and how ridiculous would it be if all of the got corrupted by Sja-anat, and yet no one noticed that their spren were off in the same way that Jasnah did?

So vanilla Truthwatchers probably have at least some future telling abilities, and by how Cultivation played Dalinar, I'm not making any predictions for the Diagram.  Although the fact that Cultivation is doing something is pretty obvious.  Honor knows what. 

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Just to close the door on the "Renarin bonded a corrupted spren" thing. 

Here from the end of the book. 

Quote

Inexplicably, the Assassin in White had joined them. He sat outside the room, guarding the door as Dalinar’s new bodyguard. He’d explained, frankly and without concern, that the majority of the Order of the Skybreakers had chosen to serve Odium. Shallan wouldn’t have thought that possible, but that—and Renarin’s bonding of a corrupted spren—indicated that they couldn’t trust someone simply because they’d spoken Ideals.

 

Edited by Calderis
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  • 4 months later...
On 3/30/2018 at 2:31 PM, IronBars said:

Isn't that assuming glys is a corrupted spren in the first place ? Which we don't know for sure ?

All spren corrupted by sja anat are recognizable for the spren they used be, when jasnah confronts renarin about glys she has a picture of what the real truthwatcher spren should look like, and doesn't remark on any simularities or even question that the spren just seems "off", she knows 100% its the wrong spren. Couldnt glys be the type of spren the parshendi use to make nightform (least i think its nightform, dont have the book to hand)

Isn't it just an assumption sja anat learned to corrupt bond spren ? Or have i missed something ?

 

I like your theory that Glys is a Nightform spren. It would fit the symmetry Parshendi getting acess to “human” while Humans to “parshendi” Spren.

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