Extesian

[OB] Unity

81 posts in this topic

Well, I’m back.

I will try to do an overall reaction post once I get my thoughts in order, and read theories, catch up on WoBs…so many responsibilities.

Meanwhile, I have a very simple prediction to propose. (I haven’t read the theories while I’ve been gone so sorry if it’s been discussed before – it seems pretty obvious to me so surely it has.)

Dalinar will reassemble the splinters of Honor, take up the Shard and rename himself Unity.

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

Um, splinters, can they be restored to… So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new vessel would have to take it.

Source

 

 

Quote

“In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong.”

 

Quote

“I am Unity.” He slammed both hands together. And combined three realms into one…”No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!”…These Words…are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done?

 I’m aware of the obvious problem, Dalinar’s enormous connection to Odium through years of binging on the Thrill. But I suspect those connections can change and he is already more connected to Honor, or he would not even have been able to create a perpendicularity from Honor’s power. Alternatively, Dalinar could take up both Shards once Rayse is killed by Cultivation and unify passion and honor into Unity. I could accept either option.

There’s my prediction. Swim through its muddy waters and let me know what you find.

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Shards have a named intent that really doesn't seem to change.  As I understand it, if Dalinar reassembled Honor, he would become Honor, as vessels find it progressively harder to oppose the intent of the Shard.  

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Cultivating Honor would be to create Unity. Cultivation plays the long game. Maybe she wasn't just preparing Dalinar to reject Odium, but also to unite the shards after Odium kills her. 

Edited by thejopen27
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On 11/22/2017 at 11:47 PM, teknopathetic said:

Honour + Dominion + Devotion = Unity?

I thought just Honor and Cultivation. Cultivation is playing a really long game, and wants revenge on Odium and may be willing to sacrifice herself after the death of her millennia long partner or know that she will have to die to defeat Odium and plans to have Dalinar pick up her power. 

Edited by thejopen27
typo
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I should clarify. I don't think the names of Shards are actually their 'true' names. I think Honor is a Shard of connection and binding you to things through it. Tanavast interpreted and manifested that as actual spiritual bonds and the ability to forge them, even without consent. But I another interpretation could be unifying things, bringing disparate things together. And so Dalinar renames Honor to Unity and affects the intent itself. Yes a Shard will change its vessel, but the vessel can also influence the Shard's intent.

Quote

Necarion

Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the Intent is open to many interpretations?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them.  You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati.

Necarion

So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he would.

Source

Oh and a merging of Shards may be more likely. My issue with it is a narrative one - we've seen that before in a similarcontext of a dude very connected to both Shards taking them up as both vessels die. But Dalinar certainly is connected to Cultivation now. 

Edited by Extesian
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2 hours ago, hoser said:

Shards have a named intent that really doesn't seem to change.  As I understand it, if Dalinar reassembled Honor, he would become Honor, as vessels find it progressively harder to oppose the intent of the Shard.  

Shards have an intent, and to our knowledge, most have only had a single Vessel. In addition to the one that Extesian posted have another. 

Quote

Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's Intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the Intent is interpreted, but what the Intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same Intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

"a big effect on how the intent is interpreted." 

We don't know how big. We don't know exactly what that core that is a part of the shard is. 

Honor and Unity are both focused on binding things together. Until we see a new Vessel take up a Shard and remain fundamentally the same Shard, the idea that Honor can only be "Honor" is an assumption. 

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Speculation time: I think this isn't so much about the shards but the oaths.

Nin said the Fifth Skybraker Oath is "I am Law".

Danilar´s words: "I am Unity". (He skipped 2 oaths?!)

I wonder if Kal and Shallan are heading there: "I am Honor" - "I am Truth" ?? Cant´t guess about Jasnah, Veli and Renarin.

Maybe ten 5th grade Radiants become ... something.. a Shard? a Little Adonalsium? 

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42 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Danilar´s words: "I am Unity". (He skipped 2 oaths?

I hadn't considered this as him achieving the fifth ideal but that makes the most sense. It might be worth asking Brandon about sometime. Do we know if Bondsmiths would be restricted from getting plate? The conversation with the Stormfather leans towards no but is slightly ambiguous. If he can get plate, it might be evidence against this, since it didn't manifest in that scene.

 

44 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Ignore, mobile issue, can't erase

Quote

“How,” Dalinar whispered to the Stormfather. “How do we get the armor?” 

Speak the Words.

“Which words?” 

You will know or you will not.

OB 34 Resistance

 

44 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

I think this isn't so much about the shards but the oaths.

There is evidence against this though, or perhaps evidence that it's a combination of the two:

Quote

“Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend,” Odium said, stepping up behind Taravangian.

OB 122 A Debt Repaid

Capital 'a' ascend implies he took up a shard in some way.

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To me it seems that the same shard or comination of shards could be named differently depending in the holder and their interpretation of the intent.

Odium as Passion and Honor as Unity are possible examples but the best one for me is in Mistborn:

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

In one of the epigraphs in Final Empire it says among other parts of the prophecy:

 "His name will be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."

Since this is predicting the Hero of Ages it would refer to Harmony. I could easily see how Ruin and Preservation together could be Discord and not Harmony if held be someone less controlled than Sazed.

 

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24 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I hadn't considered this as him achieving the fifth ideal but that makes the most sense. It might be worth asking Brandon about sometime. Do we know if Bondsmiths would be restricted from getting plate? The conversation with the Stormfather leans towards no but is slightly ambiguous. If he can get plate, it might be evidence against this, since it didn't manifest in that scene.

I should read the passage again (I was a little emotionally broken at the moment), but the words: "I will take responsibility..." doesn't really make much sense as a Bondsmith oath...

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11 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

To me it seems that the same shard or comination of shards could be named differently depending in the holder and their interpretation of the intent.

Odium as Passion and Honor as Unity are possible examples but the best one for me is in Mistborn:

Mistborn spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

In one of the epigraphs in Final Empire it says among other parts of the prophecy:

 "His name will be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."

Since this is predicting the Hero of Ages it would refer to Harmony. I could easily see how Ruin and Preservation together could be Discord and not Harmony if held be someone less controlled than Sazed.

 

Your point about the Mistborn example is a very good one. It shows how, with proper application and control, the Intent of a shard can be pointed, especially when combined with another shard with a significantly different or opposing Intent. There may be a bit more "wiggle" room when the intents of two held shards do not oppose. So for Honor and Cultivation, whose Intents don't align or oppose, it would be likely that the holder would have more room to interpret the shards' intents and thus act more like themselves. That being said, the personality of the holder slowly shifts as the intent takes over so the more shards a person posesses, the more likely it seems that their personality could be warped. 

With regards the plate, the stormfather does say "You shall be a Radiant without shards" - note the plurality. It implies that he may not get plate. That being said, it seems likely that the plate is made from "lesser" spren rather than the bonded spren so perhaps the stormfather will have little/no say in the matter. On top of that it seems that the stormfather has little future-sight so he is fallible when it comes to predicitons as well and can't be trusted to get everything right.

Regarding the spren that might be associated with the bondsmiths plate, anyone else thing gloryspren? Given the way they obviously were attracted to Dalinar as he created the perpendicularity. I did wonder if Syl was really an 'honorspren' (there is at least one WoB (http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=bonding+honorspren) saying that is what she calls herself but not specifically calling her that himself. On top of that, she regularly calls herself a windspren and when Kaladin corrects her she agrees in odd ways. It just feels.... odd. Could the gloryspren actually be more closely related to Honor than the honorspren are? Perhaps there is another clearer WoB I missed.

I don't think Dalinar is a 5th level yet - although I am sure his ability to link the three realms is part of him progressing as a radiant. I think it is perhaps more related to his close links with Honor (via the Stormfather), Odium (via the Thrill/Nergaoul) and Cultivation (via his boon/curse). I think his oath may be related to this line : "If I must fall I will rise each time a better man" (chapter 119).

Perhaps, a bit like the lightweavers don't have specific oaths but must speak truths on a journey of self awareness, the bondmiths must make oaths about their behaviour to make sure they grow in certain directions and they control their behaviour. It doesn't matter what the oath is, so ling as they mean to follow the oath for the rest of their lives. This would fit with why Dalinar and Gavilar both attracted the Stormfather to begin with - they both wanted to live by following the Codes.

 

 

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10 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Throw in Cultivation and then that makes Unity

I would say that Honor + Cultivation + Passion = Guidance. A Shard that makes humans grow so they are honest and live for what they love.

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Speculation time: I think this isn't so much about the shards but the oaths.

Nin said the Fifth Skybraker Oath is "I am Law".

Danilar´s words: "I am Unity". (He skipped 2 oaths?!)

I wonder if Kal and Shallan are heading there: "I am Honor" - "I am Truth" ?? Cant´t guess about Jasnah, Veli and Renarin.

Maybe ten 5th grade Radiants become ... something.. a Shard? a Little Adonalsium? 

I don't have the book with me right now, but I remember that I wasn't sure from the scene what the actual Oath was, and if I am not mistaken, there were two lines I thought might be the Oath... And then "I am Unity", which I didn't consider likely. What if he said three Oaths in a row? And what if the crazy explosion of power that comes with that is what created the perpendicularity?

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Except that that's a one-time boost, and Kaladin implies later on that Dalinar supercharged him again.

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I think the command Dalinar received, “unite them,” is grander than how Dalinar, or us are perceiving it. 

Dalinar thinks it means unite the people of Roshiar to fight the voidbringers. Valid interpretation, from him viewpoint. It could also mean unite the re-emerging Knights Radiant, which he also seems to take for granted as part of his charge. 

We, with more Cosmeric awareness, speculate the command refers to Honor’s Shard. Also a valid interpretation, from our viewpoint. He’s shown promise here on screen, bonding the Stormfather, summoning Honor’s Perpendicularity to pierce the 3 realms and drive back Odium. 

I think “unite them” originally came from Honor, from the visions the Stormfather delivered. We know Galivar heard that command too. But I think more is happening. Dalinar is having visions, experiencing sensations, that transcend the visions Honor left. I think the bearer of Adonalosium has piggy backed off Honor’s work and is influencing Dalinar to do More- to reunite all the Shards. We know, from Mistborn Secret History, that the death of a Shardbearer is not instant- Fuzz lasted a long while, conscious and able to influence events, even expand Kelsier so he could endure beyond death as a cognitive shadow. Seems Honor continued to be conscious a while after His splintering too. Adonalosium was not a Shard, he was an order of magnitude greater. I can imagine he still retains awareness and is influencing events. Odium’s statement “we killed you,” especially drives me down this line of thinking. There is more happening here than Dalinar becoming a sliver of Honor. He is being prepared for something greater. 

Edited by knightedbishop
Fixing typos
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3 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I hadn't considered this as him achieving the fifth ideal but that makes the most sense. It might be worth asking Brandon about sometime. Do we know if Bondsmiths would be restricted from getting plate? The conversation with the Stormfather leans towards no but is slightly ambiguous. If he can get plate, it might be evidence against this, since it didn't manifest in that scene.

I'm pretty sure Dalinar is very close to getting his Plate:

Quote

He fell beside the hole’s perimeter, and stretched one hand toward Venli. His other ground against the rock wall, hand scraping the stone. Something flashed around his arm. Lines of light, a framework that covered his body. His fingers didn’t bleed as they scraped the stone.

 

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Yes, I think the Unity thing encompasses a great deal more than we originally though. Alethkar, Roshar, the KR. But after he united the 3 realms, more possibilities opened up. If the Stormfather was a temporary holder of the Shard of Honor, Like Kelsier with Preservation, then Dalinar could very well be primed to become Honor. And he has a strong connection with Cultivation as well. What if he Bonded all 3 Siblings and used them to assume the powers of Cultivation and even Odium. At that point, he would be more powerful than Sazed. And they would be allies I am sure. 5 of the 16 Shards. Dalinar could be meant to reunite Adonalsium...in a different, better form than before probably. Of course, you also have Hoid collecting Investitures from the different Shards. Not sure if they could work together or not.

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I think that Dalinar's ultimate destiny in the Cosmere is to  reunite the shards of Aldonalsium. I can't remember the exact WoB, but I remember seeing somewhere that Dalinar was one of the first cosmere characters that Brandon came up with. Makes a lot of sense for someone on that scale to be conceived early on.

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I️ have came to the same conclusion as other beings I️n the Cosmere have obtained Shardstatus , namely the mistborn ... also it is established that humans came from another planet and not native to roshar ... my final observation is that by honor being dead there is an imbalance , Odium personifies Chaos/evil Cultivation growth/nuetrality and Honor Order/good by honor being dead this imbalance leaves Odium unchecked , it’s seems a logical that Dalinar becoming Unity resets the balance.

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Guys. You know what Dalinars first chapter in WoK is? 

Unity. 

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36 minutes ago, Run Ookla, run! said:

Guys. You know what Dalinars first chapter in WoK is? 

Unity. 

Mind.  Blown.

edit:

To add on, I think Dalinar is being more literal here.  If the Stormfather is holding (or, more likely, IS) a piece of Honor's shard, which I feel is strongly implied, he just enhanced his connection to it through the Nahel Bond. Thus, he has partially taken up that piece of the shard of Honor himself.  Maybe this one piece of Honor has the intent of Unity, rather than the larger implication of Honor+Cultivation = Unity.  So depending on how many pieces Honor split into, there may be separate intents to each, which all combine to make up Honor.

Edited by Riceloft
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20 minutes ago, Riceloft said:

Mind.  Blown.

edit:

To add on, I think Dalinar is being more literal here.  If the Stormfather is holding (or, more likely, IS) a piece of Honor's shard, which I feel is strongly implied, he just enhanced his connection to it through the Nahel Bond. Thus, he has partially taken up that piece of the shard of Honor himself.  Maybe this one piece of Honor has the intent of Unity, rather than the larger implication of Honor+Cultivation = Unity.  So depending on how many pieces Honor split into, there may be separate intents to each, which all combine to make up Honor.

Plausible, since the new Stormfather is meant to be Bondsmith spren.

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2 hours ago, Riceloft said:

Mind.  Blown.

edit:

To add on, I think Dalinar is being more literal here.  If the Stormfather is holding (or, more likely, IS) a piece of Honor's shard, which I feel is strongly implied, he just enhanced his connection to it through the Nahel Bond. Thus, he has partially taken up that piece of the shard of Honor himself.  Maybe this one piece of Honor has the intent of Unity, rather than the larger implication of Honor+Cultivation = Unity.  So depending on how many pieces Honor split into, there may be separate intents to each, which all combine to make up Honor.

I'm liking something similar to this theory right now.  Tanavast saw what happened with his Heralds going insane, and with how Rayse interpreted his shard.  Assuming Tanavast set all this up, making the Stormfather the new Honor could give Dalinar all the powers of a Vessel with the additional checks required by the Nahel bond.

Edited by anna
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51 minutes ago, anna said:

I'm liking something similar to this theory right now.  Tanavast saw what happened with his Heralds going insane, and with how Rayse interpreted his shard.  Assuming Tanavast set all this up, making the Stormfather the new Honor could give Dalinar all the powers of a Vessel with the additional checks required by the Nahel bond.

I don't think the Stormfather has it all, just a piece.

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