[OB] The secret that caused the Recreance

[RShara]

47 minutes ago, sylian said:

Dalinar seeing the Recreance in a vision means either one of the following: Honor has lived after the Recreance and the visions are prepared at a later point; or Honor has not lived after the Recreance and the vision is what he imagined might happen and it actually was nothing like it. I like option one because it implies that Honor was really crazy when he prepared the visions and I would like to investigate them for evidence. Or he gained his sanity back just right before dying, made visions, dead. Also I reread the vision and it is interesting enough that the Radiants manifested surges right before giving up the blades and armours - so this implies them willingly breaking the bonds, not like Kal accidentally almost killed Syl, more like what Patterns suggests to Shallan - "you can kill me".

Also one big question, where are these hundreds of weapons and armours, there is like 300 and Dalinar thinks he knows about like 20-30.

Yes, Honor was still alive during the Recreance. But his Intent was taking over his personality, so he was losing himself, and was telling the KR that they would destroy the planet.

During the vision, Dalinar reflects to himself about the number of Shardblades and Plates known to exist, versus the number he sees in the vision.

[sylian]

What I am wondering is where is this understanding that the KR will destroy the planet in the visions? Where is the intent taking over the personality? The main message in the visions is "unite them", nothing about oaths. What I see in the visions doesn't align with what evidence we get about honor in his last days. Am I missing it?

And also, where are the shardblades and plates now? There were hundreds left, but they seem to be very very rare nowadays.

[ScavellTane]

10 minutes ago, sylian said:

And also, where are the shardblades and plates now? There were hundreds left, but they seem to be very very rare nowadays.

Probably in Rall Elorim, since Feverstone Keep is nearby.

[Fulminato]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Yes, Honor was still alive during the Recreance. But his Intent was taking over his personality, so he was losing himself, and was telling the KR that they would destroy the planet.

he was still alive, but dying. a shard need centuries to be gone for good (if you had read mistborn secret history you had a good example)

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

3 hours ago, sylian said:

What I am wondering is where is this understanding that the KR will destroy the planet in the visions? Where is the intent taking over the personality? The main message in the visions is "unite them", nothing about oaths. What I see in the visions doesn't align with what evidence we get about honor in his last days. Am I missing it?

And also, where are the shardblades and plates now? There were hundreds left, but they seem to be very very rare nowadays.

without the gemstone the shardplates were totaly useless, and the shardblades are impratical to use if cannot dismiss between fight.

adding the gemstone to blade (and after plate) took some time, the other was lost in the middle.

[Mircana]

one thing that the KR didn't put into account for the destruction of there original planet is that their god was odium.  the smallest conflict could and would erupt into full scale war unchecked by the restrictions of honor or cultivation.  so their worries that they may destroy this new planet feels unfounded 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I think that the reasons given for the Recreance in Oahtbringer are a red herring, a patchwork of conveniently assembled facts, orchestrated by Mr. T and the Diagramatists to shatter Dalinar's fragile coalition, they have useful information, but it is not the REAL reason for the Recreance:

On 11/22/2017 at 11:44 AM, shawnhargreaves said:

Later on, Taravangian arranges for a secret to be broadly communicated.  He is certainly NOT a reliable actor!  And the interesting thing is, he's the only one that really seemed to care about that particular piece of information.  The Azir and Thaylens were focused on other information, which was carefully tailored to their individual concerns.  So why did Taravangian bother to release that Dawnchant translation at all?  I think it was cover.  This wasn't necessary to break up the coalition, but to give him a plausible excuse for backing out of it while retaining moral high ground, so he could step in later and pick up the pieces.

I agree with this, the revlelations we got in Oathbringer are calculated to achieve a specific politic end, not an explanation. I think the KR were inherently aware of the dangers of their powers, as they did have to swear increasingly specific oaths in order to access more investiture.

Now for what I think the real reason for the Recreance is:

Here are the relevant passages from the in world WoR book about the Recreance:

Quote

But as for Ishi'Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

—Chapter 2, page 4^[2]

This shows the necessity of putting bounds on the powers of the KR (due to the revelations in OB), and explains the understanding that Ishar and Nale came to about dealing with KRs after honor was dead.

Quote

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

—Chapter 30, page 18^[17]

Hmmm...What could this be?

Quote

In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for this execution of one their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy's baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace.

  —Chapter 32, page 17^[18]

This seems to me like an historical record of a KR bonding an unmade...The Nahel bond makes this possible....

Quote

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest.

That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.

—Chapter 38, page 6^[21]

Hmmm, thus engaged, possibly by actions at Feverstone Keep which is near Rall Elhorim the City of Shadows...And the windrunners were "primary among those would forswear and abandon their oaths"...Interesting.

Quote

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.

—Chapter 38, page 20^[22]

So this act of great villiany is most likely related to this wicked thing of eminence, and furthermore was dealt with (most likely) by Melishi the bondsmith using powers related to the Unique abilities of the Bondsmiths (also related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, which means the Heralds probably understood exaclty what happened and would, while still fairly lucid and not completely insane, devise a couter strategem for).

So what was the plan that Nale and Ishar came up with to keep the Desolations from Returning?

On 11/22/2017 at 8:50 AM, RShara said:

  Quote

“I worked for thousands of years to prevent another Desolation,” Nin continued. “Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”

Here is my theory. One of the Unmade, specifically Dai-Gonarthis (the one we get the least information about from Hessi's Mythica), is the agent or bridge for Odium's power to be manifest on Roshar. Previously, in past desolations, I believe that this agent of Odium probably bonded a KR, and like Dalinar in the Unity Chapter, was a proximate source of Investiture. The thing that is different about this desolation is that instead of being bound in a single vessel, Dai-Gonarthis rides the Everstorm. This splinter of Odium that gives Voidish investiture could be one of the other Unmade, but I think it probably most likely the one we have the least information about, here's the passage from the Mythica from OB chapter 113:

Quote

If I'm correct and my research is true, then the question remains. Who is the ninth Unmade? Is it truly Dai-Gonarthis? Is so, could their actions have really caused the complete destruction of Aimia?

The thing that caused the recreance, if this theory is true, was that Melishi bound Dai-Gonarthis (like Neragoul was bound by Dalinar), but this binding severed the Spiritual Connection of all of the Singers that had bonded a spren (so that would include all of the Singers that were in any form other than dull form, which is the unbonded state for Listeners). This would have affected all of the Listeners who had taken forms of power and all of the fused, felling all enemy combatants in one fell swoop. But I think, the Parshendi, the remnant of the Singers aka the Listeners, intentionally had assumed dull form to escape from their gods, and hence their Spiritual connection was not affected. There is a quote in the OB chapter 20 where Sah is talking to Kaladin:

Quote

"...Your kind will expend a fortune figuring out what changed to give us back our minds, and they'll figure out a way to reverse it. They'll strip from me my sanity, and set me to carrying water again."

Something happened to the parshmen that robbed them of their Identity. I think that this was because their spiritual connection was severed, and without spiritual connection Identity becomes not unlike the life of a fish or some other less sentient form of life. The higher truths are spiritual, the world of mere perception is to be trapped solely in the Pyshical realm.

Certain Knights Radiants (as evidenced by the  windrunners being "primary among those who forswear their oaths) would have a harder time with the morality of condemning an entire people to a insensate life of mere being, which would be especially hard on Listeners who by their nature were more aware and participant in the Cognitive realm than Humans, so the idea of them living as beings trapped in the physical realm without connection to either the Cognitive or the Spiritual realm is worse than genocide, it's the destruction of their very essence. I think the morality of this action, a thing that could not any way be construed to have been done with Honor, caused the Edgedancers and the Windrunners especially to abandon their oaths. I think this also played into Nales and Ishar's long term strategy of denying the unmade Nahel bonded vessels to bond with, to limit their affects to proximate effects and further to stop the wicked thing of Immenence (Dai-Gonarthis) from having a vessel to use to spread odium's voidish influence.

Further, I think that this might be the cause of the death of Honor. I think when the Heralds abandoned Taln to bear the full fury of Damnation by himself, this was the initial crack in Honor, and that the Recreance was a further widening of the crack to the point were honor was almost dead, but the actual splintering of Honor didn't happen until the populace at large stopped believing in Honor as an Ideal. Here is the causal chain:

Heralds Act without Honor>Singers are robbed of their spiritual connection unhonorably>Knights Radiants abandon their oaths, thinking Honor is dead>General population turns against KR and think them dishonorable>Honor Truly dies.

 

I think Bradon specifically set up OB to give an unsatisfying underlying reason for the Recreance, we all love the big reveals, and part of setting up tension is to have the moment of revelation, where all of the small pieces fit together in a truly satisfying whole. I think OB just revealed knowledge that was common knowledge to the KRs at the time, and that we are still learning the more nefarious details of the this truly interesting and truly epic event.

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Typos

[Giubba]

Am i the only one who think that "we could destroy this world like our original one" is a pretty weak motivation for throwing out of the window a 2000 years old order and killing all their storming spren which is something akin to killing a family member?

[straits]

Another poster here mentioned that it was likely not a matter of "we could destroy the world" and closer to "we are actively destroying the world, and mass disarmament is the quickest way to stop the process".

I agree with RShara's point. Many of the spren were likely willing to self-sacrifice if their morality aligned with that of their Radiants. The Recreance was the final step of a long deliberation between spren and the knights.

What confuses me somewhat is the fact that they disarmed in front of human armies/civilians. They could have disarmed elsewhere, announced their departure separately, and stashed these Roshar equivalents of melee nukes away from humans that will murder each other just to obtain greater capacity to murder each other. Instead they presented them the Shards on an open ground that was about to become a battlefield.

I wouldn't want to conclude that the KR were nihilistic to the point of not caring about the consequences of leaving the Shards in the hands of others, even as they were disarming in order to prevent destruction of a world. I think Sanderson will provide more context in the long run.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

This is very pertinent to my theory about the Recreance (a couple posts above this post), this is a consolidation of the Gem archive epigraphs from Oversleep's great post [OB] The Gem Archive that deals with Melishi, the Singers and (what I believe to be) the real cause of the Recreance.

5 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Drawer 30-20, first, second, third, fourth, fifth and final AND a particularly small emerald, Truthwatcher:

Quote

Something must be done about the remnants of Odium's forces. The parsh, as they are now called, continue their war with zeal, even without their masters from Damnation.
A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat.
Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi.
Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.
We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects.
Surely this will bring - at long last - the end to war that the Heralds promised us.

Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this.

In my theory of the recreance above, I mistakenly said that it was Dai-Gonarthis that was the bridge on Roshar to Odium's investiture, but it actually is Ba-Ado Mishram.

This is very much inline with the idea that the act of Melishi that denied the parsh their forms of power had the unintended side-effect of robbing them of their mind as well. The mechanism of this is discussed in my previous post. As further proof, here are the relevant passages about Ba-Ado-Mishram from Hessi's Mythica:

Quote

I find Ba-Ado-Mishram to be the most interesting of the Unmade. She is said to have been keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations. I do not know how this relates to the ancient god of the enemy, named Odium.

-Chapter 106

And this

Quote

There is very little information about Ba-Ado-Mishram in more modern times. I can only assume, she, unlike many of the, returned to Damnation or was destroyed during Aharietiam.

-Chapter 107

My guess is that Melishi and the Scholar KRs knew what effect this capturing of Ba-Ado-Mishram would have on the parsh (or Singers), and they made the wrong moral choice. They chose to consign an entire people to a life of mere perception, only existing in the physical realm (cut of from Connection and Identity) like Lifeless on Nalthis or Koloss on Scadrial, and when the other orders of KRs found out what Melishi had knowingly done they abandoned their oaths (interesting to note that the Windrunners, who would probably have the most problem with this were  "primary among those would forswear and abandon their oaths").

This seems like the REAL root cause of the Recreance.

[Kayana]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Honor himself was going to destroy the humans and the Recreance was the only way to stop him? 

No Shard in the Cosmere is inherently good (Hoid understood that) and Honor was going insane. Nale is a great snapshot of what that might look like. Heartless, capable of immense cruelty in the service of a cause, and ultimately realizing that humans suck.

The Knights Radiant basically mutilated an entire sentient species when they turned them into Parshmen. Perhaps a hurting and repeatedly betrayed Tanavast then decided on drastic action? Possibly that Roshar would be better off without humans, who he never really wanted on this planet in the first place? The Recreance may have been a sudden action taken to remove that option from Tanavast before he could act on it.

Anyhow, just some grist for the mil.

[DiamondMind]

I just found that Nale is not completely crazy, there is something bad about Surgebinding without Honor to regulate it. The Honorspren captain says: "But your bond is dangerous, without Honor. There will not be enough checks upon your power—you risk disaster.”

Maybe the Recreance was caused by so many things combined that the KR felt they had no way out of what they had to do?

[happyman]

We have gone far too long in this thread without quoting the most important commentary on The Recreance Reveal in the entire book:  Kaladin and Syl's understanding of it.  I'm going to emphasize the bits which I think are most relevant for this discussion.

..."It's true, then?" he finally said.  "About the parshmen.  That this was their land, their

world, before we arrived.  That...that we were the Voidbringers?"

She nodded.  "Odium is the void, Kaladin.  He draws in emotion and doesn't let it go.  You...you brought him with you.  I wasn't alive then, but I know this truth.  He was your first god, before you turned to Honor."

Kaladin exhaled slowly, closing his eyes.

The men of Bridge Four were having trouble with this idea. As well they should. Others in the military didn't care, but his men...they knew.

You could protect your home.  You could kill to defend the people inside.  But what if you'd stolen that house in the first place?  What if the people you killed were only trying to get back what was rightfully theirs?

[Kaladin thinks about his family and news from the war.]

It got so complicated.  Humans had lived upon this land for thousands of years.  Could anyone really be expected to let go because of what ancient people had done, no matter how dishonorable their actions?

Who did he fight?  Who did he protect?

Defender? Invader?

Honorable knight?  Hired thug?

"The Recreance," he said to Syl.  "I always imagined it as a single event.  A day the knights all gave up their Shards, like in Dalinar's vision.  But I don't think it actually happened like that."

"Then...how?"  Syl asked?

"Like this," Kaladin said.  He squinted, watching the light of a setting sun play on the ocean.  "They found something they couldn't ignore.  Eventually they had to face it."

"They made the wrong choice."

Kaladin pocketed the stone.  "The oaths are about perception, Syl.  You confirmed that.  The only thing that matters is whether or not we are confident that we're obeying our principles.  If we lose that confidence, then dropping the armor and weapons is only a formality."

"Kal---"

"I'm not going to do the same," he said.  "I'd like to think that the past of Bridge Four will make us a little more pragmatic than those ancient Radiants.  We won't abandon you.  But finding out what we will do might end up being messy.

Notice that this quote does a pretty good job of squashing the folks who claim that the reaction from the Radiants was too small.  In reality, the reason it didn't have much impact on the book is because it came out towards the end.  Between when Dalinar first learned The Secret, and this scene was, best I can tell, within the same day, the day of the battle of Thaylen City.  It was a pretty busy (200+ page) day, but still the same day.  Dalinar had essentially the same scene earlier the same day, and he stopped thinking about mostly because the battle was quite literally right there, right then, spear-headed by Odium himself.

Pretty much as soon as they had a chance to absorb what they had learned, Dalinar, Bridge Four, and Kaladin almost instantly had the same gut reaction:  What are we doing, and why are we doing it?  We don't see Shallan's reaction, but then the records do claim that the Windrunner's were among the first affected, and the ones most strongly affected.

Kaladin also describes the basic problem with trying to keep the Oaths with this kind of sucker-punch.  It's important to remember that original the Knight's Radiant were, in many ways, religious orders.  They literally drew their power from their god, and they did so by keeping some of their god's commandments (situational commandments, sure, but they fit the individuals pretty well).  Discovering that the commandments themselves may be literally impossible to keep...it's one of the world's most extreme examples of a crisis of faith I've ever heard of.  And like most crises of faith, the reaction probably differed from person to person.  Some made a big public demonstration of it, like many Windrunners.  Some probably just---disappeared.  In all cases, though, they probably didn't do it because they wanted to.  They did it because---because they didn't believe any more.  It wasn't that they wanted to hurt their spren, it was because their was literally no way forward that they could see---perceive---in which they kept their oaths.

I do kind of like hoiditthroughthegrapevine's idea, though, that the last straw was how the remaining Radiants treated the listeners during the False Desolation.  His reconstruction of events makes sense.  Combine the effect the end of the False Desolation had on the parsh (e.g. turned sapient creatures into mindless slaves) with the fact that said sapient creatures were in fact the original inhabitants of the planet, and that humans had brought their own evil with them...yeah, that sounds like just the one-two punch that would send the bulk of the orders into a destructive spiral which eventually ended up killing all their spren.

[DocHoliday]

The Stormfather knows something else about the Recreance, or why his reticence to answer Dalinar? I hated that Iine "I have told you, all of relevance. The rest is inconsequential" when literally a paragraph before the Stormfather says "if you knew you would betray your Oaths". 

"There's always another secret"

[kaellok]

2 hours ago, happyman said:

We have gone far too long in this thread without quoting the most important commentary on The Recreance Reveal in the entire book:  Kaladin and Syl's understanding of it.  I'm going to emphasize the bits which I think are most relevant for this discussion.

Discovering that the commandments themselves may be literally impossible to keep...it's one of the world's most extreme examples of a crisis of faith I've ever heard of. 

In all cases, though, they probably didn't do it because they wanted to.  They did it because---because they didn't believe any more.  It wasn't that they wanted to hurt their spren, it was because their was literally no way forward that they could see---perceive---in which they kept their oaths.

snipped some bits to reduce space, keeping those that seemed to encapsulate the core argument.  Apologies if I removed something crucial that makes the rest lose necessary context.

First off, I may not have directly quoted Kaladin and Syl's conversation, but I DID directly reference this conversation AND the parallel it has with breaking the Urithiru Coalition in my post on Page 1 of this thread.  

Second, I find the whole "we stole this land from them in the first place, so we need to kill our friends and let their gods murder us!" sentiment to be hogwash.  Humans been on the planet for literally thousands of years at that point; maybe even thousands of years after Aharietium.  The context of the Eile stele is that the Dawnsingers were commanded to welcome the humans, and they did so.  The strong inference we can draw including that information is that there was a place set aside for the humans to live, which is incredibly likely to be Shinovar.

If we assume that Shinovar is the reservation set aside for humans, then it could make absolute sense for Radiants to abandon their fight against the parsh save to keep Shinovar safe, secure, and free.  Even then I find that an incredibly extreme reaction.  For how long must a people be punished for the sins of their ancestors?  100 years?  1000?  5000?  Even longer?  

Sure, the parsh definitely deserve to be free, and not enslaved.  They deserve to be a people again.  That does not mean that it's right to consign humans to annihilation.  That doesn't mean that it makes sense for people who, at their core believe Life Before Death as their motto decide to murder and walk away from a conflict just because their ancestors started it some many thousands of years ago.  Maybe, knowing that, they should--talk?  Yeah, talking would be good.  Or they could abandon all non-Shinovar nations; that would make sense.  But no, they could see no way to reconcile their Oaths, and so instead they killed their friends, leaving them abandoned in the ground, and made seemingly no attempt to even try to bring them back later.  

The reason for the Recreance has supposedly been given to us in OB.  It is lacking context that would make it an emotionally or logically satisfying reason, and so has been utterly underwhelming to at least me.  The context that people have been trying to give to it, as hinted at in OB itself, does not fix any of the problems with the Recreance prior to the big revelation.  We're still left with a few thousand people dedicated to Life who, within a short span, decided that it was either too dangerous to exist (because supposedly they will destroy the world again if they do, although we have no idea how or why), or that they had no right to exist because of something humans did thousands of years prior.  Again, I say "hogwash!"  I'll continue to be disappointed and underwhelmed until we get the Real Answer 2.0 in Book 4.  Or Book 5.  Or Book 10.  Or maybe never, because this is all there is (but I very strongly doubt that).

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, I have two unrelated points to make. One of which is probably better on another thread, but I can't find an appropriate one.

The first point is this: I don't think we can consider Kaladin/Syl to be a typical Radiant/Spren bond. Look at Pattern, or Ivory, or Wyndle. None of them are nearly as close as Kaladin/Syl, at least from the PoVs we get. Some of the Orders' spren were chosen by committee, for crying out loud! I feel like the more standard situation was them considering their spren like colleagues and/or police partner. Something more professional. That is strongly suggested by the modern day Skybreakers. So I think the idea of them killing their spren is not as far-fetched as it seems, simply because they might have seen it as a necessary sacrifice. The level of intimacy that Kaladin and Syl have seems far from typical to me.

The second comment is based on this post:

On 11/22/2017 at 11:48 AM, Bridge Boy said:

I don't like Wit. Him being so actively involved in every book of this series is becoming a tedious intrusion. It was fine in WoK, and worked well in WoR, but I am over it.

 

So, here's the thing. I have seen more than one person express similar complaints about Hoid. I feel like if you have a problem with him, you're going to have major problems down the line. Because at the end of the day, Hoid is the soul of the Cosmere. He is the primary bridge between worlds. One could make an arguement that he is not intruding in the Stormlight Archive, but that Dalinar and co. are intruding on his story. I feel like if we were reading from his perspective instead, we would be saying similar things about Altethi politics and Rosharan Lightweavers intruding on Hoid's story. At the end of the day, Hoid is the closest thing the Cosmere overall has to a main character. Stormlight is the tipping point, where things apparently start heading for full crossover. If that's the case, then Hoid is going to start showing up and interfering more as the books go on. If you have a problem with some relatively minor "intrusions" here, you may not like where the Cosmere is headed. Because like it or not, Hoid is here to stay. At the very least until Mistborn space opera. 

[RShara]

I was just re-reading WoR, and I rediscovered the epigraphs of part 2!  They actually hint at quite a bit of the humans' arrival on Roshar.

Quote

’Tis said it was warm in the land far away

When Voidbringers entered our songs.

We brought them home to stay

And then those homes became their own,

It happened gradually.

And years ahead ’twil still be said ’tis how it has to be.

—From the Listener Song of Histories, 12th stanza

 

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can’t provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men.

—From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza

Quote

But it is not impossible to blend

Their Surges to ours in the end.

It has been promised and it can come.

Or do we understand the sum?

We question not if they can have us then,

But if we dare to have them again.

—From the Listener Song of Spren, 10th stanza

Quote

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,

Of one who seeks to take control,

Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.

They are his spren, his gift, his price.

But the nightforms speak of future life,

A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite.

—From the Listener Song of Secrets, final stanza

 

So it looks like the Unmade and the voidspren are definitely Splinters of pure Odium.  "It's not impossible to blend their surges to ours in the end" might be referring to how Venli's spren (highspren? lightspren?) bound the voidspren into her heart, so now she has access to both?

 

It also sounds like the Listeners might have had a prophecy about humans taking their lands.

 

What's most interesting is that their songs also speak of a Champion that could defeat him.

[happyman]

Kaellok,

Your points make very good logical sense.  The thing about this kind of crisis of faith, though, is that it is mostly emotional.  There are people who logic their way out of their previous beliefs, but the Radiants are, by their very actions, True Believers.  Nothing speaks belief like the kind of action they have to take to keep the oaths.  Having their faith broken would lead to all kinds of things, at least one of which is depression.  In the depths of depression, people do things exactly as stupid as you are describing.  More stupid, even.

But I wouldn't be opposed to there being more about it than we have learned.  I do think, though, that some folks are pushing the logical side more than the Radiants in the book, of any age, did.  Certainly the actions of Kaladin and the bridgemen felt real to me at a gut level, even as I knew that it made no sense.