[OB] The Dagger.

[Michael Portz]

9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

What did that metal sound like to you? I really think the metal pulled the spirit in with hemelurgy, and then the Gem further pulled in the investiture into the perfect storage device. The knife was described as yellow/gold and white - is that atium, or maybe Odium's god metal?

Do we think there are UnMade fabrials and Herald fabrials? What would a herald give its user?

Same response as above, thatfor I quote myself:

21 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

If its Hemalurgy, should Moash then not have been more careful to where precisely he stabbed Jezrien? Instead it looks a bit randomly "in the gut".

Semi-ninja'd by TR:

9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I sincerely doubt that it is a Hemalurgic spike though. For one, Moash don't know a thing about binding points.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Michael Portz
added ninja quote

[Shuffel]

11 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

On 11/22/2017 at 5:57 AM, Michael Portz said:

If its Hemalurgy, should Moash then not have been more careful to where precisely he stabbed Jezrien? Instead it looks a bit randomly "in the gut".

 

Good point.Unless he was guided in someway it's unlikely it was Hemalurgy

[Ari]

On 11/23/2017 at 6:28 PM, thejopen27 said:

But Odium doesn't want a permanent desolation, he wants to break humanity to force them to release him, or otherwise break the Oathpact. He wants to escape Roshar (after dealing with Cultivation.)

You don't think it'd be easier to break humanity knowing that they can never end his desolation?

If his goal is escape, (unclear at this point whether he'd up and leave if he was let free, given his convos with Dalinar in OB I'm less inclined to that idea than I was after WoR) there's no guarantee he doesn't want to "win" on Roshar to see if he can't undermine or shatter Cultivation while doing so.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Ari
grammar

[thejopen27]

On 11/24/2017 at 9:07 AM, Ari said:

You don't think it'd be easier to break humanity knowing that they can never end his desolation?

If his goal is escape, (unclear at this point whether he'd up and leave if he was let free, given his convos with Dalinar in OB I'm less inclined to that idea than I was after WoR) there's no guarantee he doesn't want to "win" on Roshar to see if he can't undermine or shatter Cultivation while doing so.

I just meant that Odium's end goal was separate from the desolation. The Desolations are means to an end for him, not the main goal. His goals don't stop at Roshar, they don't stop at Cultivation. If he broke the bonds holding him to Roshar, yes, he would probably stay to destroy Cultivation and remove the shards of Honor like he said, but then he would leave. He has bigger fish to fry. He came to Roshar, presumably to destroy Honor and/or Cultivation, but never intended to stay. He Hates. I believe Hoid is correct to fear him. All the other Shards insist he is trapped there and no threat, but Odium seems to be attempting to break free. 

[Ari]

On 11/29/2017 at 7:41 AM, thejopen27 said:

I just meant that Odium's end goal was separate from the desolation. The Desolations are means to an end for him, not the main goal. His goals don't stop at Roshar, they don't stop at Cultivation. If he broke the bonds holding him to Roshar, yes, he would probably stay to destroy Cultivation and remove the shards of Honor like he said, but then he would leave. He has bigger fish to fry. He came to Roshar, presumably to destroy Honor and/or Cultivation, but never intended to stay. He Hates. I believe Hoid is correct to fear him. All the other Shards insist he is trapped there and no threat, but Odium seems to be attempting to break free. 

Sure. He'll have long-term goals or plans, and short-term ones that are intended to last him through the Stormlight Archive. The long-term ones are only relevant if he survives SA, which we should wait and see about.

[ZenBossanova]

In case no one has seen this WoB 

Quote

Me: Have we seen any instances of hemalurgy on Roshar before, and given the end of Oathbringer, related question: is what happened to Jezrien hemalurgy? 

Brandon: There are certain philosophers in the cosmere who would class what happened as hemalurgy, but I am on the fence and am unsure, there is something slightly different going on. 

Me: but we have seen hemalurgy on roshar? 

Brandon: yes, there have been people who have visited Roshar who use hemalurgy, and I am pretty confident that one of them has had screen time. 

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[thejopen27]

6 hours ago, Ari said:

Sure. He'll have long-term goals or plans, and short-term ones that are intended to last him through the Stormlight Archive. The long-term ones are only relevant if he survives SA, which we should wait and see about.

I think he intended to breakout right there at the end of Oathbringer. He agrees to the contest of champions and then he tries to turn Dalinar. He fails. SO now the contest is set. I would guess book 5 ends with the contest and Odium loses, he sent back to Braize. Books 6-10 are the next desolation. 

[ScavellTane]

1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

I think he intended to breakout right there at the end of Oathbringer. He agrees to the contest of champions and then he tries to turn Dalinar. He fails. SO now the contest is set. I would guess book 5 ends with the contest and Odium loses, he sent back to Braize. Books 6-10 are the next desolation. 

Agree. Which is why I'm curious who would hold the Oathpact for that 20 years and who breaks?

[Ari]

9 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I think he intended to breakout right there at the end of Oathbringer. He agrees to the contest of champions and then he tries to turn Dalinar. He fails. SO now the contest is set. I would guess book 5 ends with the contest and Odium loses, he sent back to Braize. Books 6-10 are the next desolation. 

Oh, sure, there's no doubt that plan was to end his prison, but it failed. What I'm saying is that Odium's prison being gone doesn't mean he isn't going to stick around on Roshar until all his business is concluded, and if he does leave before the Stormlight Archive is finished, I expect it to be in the intermission between the two halves of the series. Just like Dalinar et all aren't going to win anything too huge until book 5, they're also unlikely to lose anything too badly until then, either.

@ZenBossanova: That's a very relevant WoB, cheers. Interesting that brandon is undecided on the question of whether it's hemalurgy, I would have said it's at least a roshar-local variant on it, but apparently he's thinking it could also be something a bit more fundamental either to Shards or to realmatics in general.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Ari

[echaozh]

On 11/23/2017 at 6:24 AM, teknopathetic said:

What did that metal sound like to you? I really think the metal pulled the spirit in with hemelurgy, and then the Gem further pulled in the investiture into the perfect storage device. The knife was described as yellow/gold and white - is that atium, or maybe Odium's god metal?

Do we think there are UnMade fabrials and Herald fabrials? What would a herald give its user?

I don't know, but it sounds like gold and aluminum melded together. You know, aluminum is almost definitely needed in this case. Gold, well, gold makes you see people's past, which somehow fits here, to stab someone with a very long and colorful past.

Or it could be electrium.

[WardenGiggles]

For some reason, the thing that sticks in my mind about the Dagger is where did it come from? We see Azure sail off with Ico and his ship and know she's already planning to tell them how to create a "shardblade" with no bonded spren. Is it possible somehow she either told them, who in turn were coerced into telling the Fused and eventually Odium? So in effect this dagger would be more like Nightblood or Azure's shardblade?

[KidWayne]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:55 AM, thejopen27 said:

I think he intended to breakout right there at the end of Oathbringer. He agrees to the contest of champions and then he tries to turn Dalinar. He fails. SO now the contest is set. I would guess book 5 ends with the contest and Odium loses, he sent back to Braize. Books 6-10 are the next desolation. 

See I think the opposite mid-series conclusion is likely... My money is on this outcome:

• Odium wins, and shatters Cultivation
• Odium - free to leave Roshar - teams up with Bavadin and heads to Scadrial to assault Harmony.
• Books 6-10 are Team Dalinar trying to save their ruined world from Odium's forces (a la the Jedi fighting the Empire in the original Star Wars trilogy).
• The series concludes with Odium's return and defeat at the hands of the Knights Radiant with assistance from Hoid & other Shards who oppose Rayse.

I just don't find it interesting to set up a bad guy so bad that he has killed 25% of the deities in his pantheon (at least 4 of the 16 Shards), only to lose to a few magically-enhanced but well-intentioned humans with unresolved emotional problems who barely know what they are doing. There simply isn't enough time to get Dalinar's Knights enough experience (or enough Knights) nor is there time to get his coalition to a functional level of trust or organizational competence. If these groups fight an organized force with experience that exceeds ordinary lifetimes (i.e. the Fused) and is led by a living and involved deity (i.e. Odium), they should not win. All they've got are the spren, a fraction of Honor's consciousness as represented by the Stormfather, and Cultivation who has apparently chosen not to get directly involved. Their enemy has something that is either equivalent to or better than everything Dalinar's allies have. Odium's history proves he's no fool; Odium can and should win this fight.

Now that might be sad for our beloved Rosharan characters, but it will make for a better story than two 5-book arcs that result in Odium's defeat. I don't think it would be interesting for the "True Desolation" to fail only to be followed by another desolation. How does that even make sense with the Everstorm? Even if the Fused were held back by a re-forged Oathpact, the Everstorm would presumably enable Odium to continue the fight by sending lesser-voidspren through the storm to create Regals who would use various forms of power to keep the fight going. Remember Honor tells Dalinar that the prize for defeating Odium's champion will be more time (it's not a permanent solution). So how does Odium ever actually get defeated?

Which brings me to my next point: it makes more sense (for the Cosmere meta-narrative) if Odium escapes Roshar. If he is stuck in the Rosharn system for the entire run of the Cosmere, where is the conflict going to come from? Autonomy seems like a good villainess, but as far as we know, she just wants to be left alone (and might be open to despicable means to achieve that end) - not shatter other Shards. While Bavadin might work as a one off bad guy who opposes Harmony because he holds two shards and is too involved in the day to day management of his world for her tastes, she doesn't present much of a threat to any of the single-Shard-holding vessels whom she has ignored up to this point.

So, the Cosmere needs Odium to get loose and threaten the other Shards as he has been set up as the Big Bad across the Cosmere (specifically on Ashyn, Sel & Threnody). I think he is being setup to become the Big Bad on Scadrial, too (see my post below about this if you're interested). Ignoring worlds associated with Autonomy, you're left with only Nalthis & Yolen* as Shard-invested planets have not yet been molested by Rayse.

Odium's defeat will set up the other major story arc for the Cosmere: what to do about the remnants of Adonalsium now that half the Shards are shattered. This could be a splintering of the other Shards or it could be an attempt to reunite all the Shards & splinters to reform Adonalsium. Either option will be opposed by factions loyal to the non-splintered and/or benevolent Shards or by magic users who don't want to surrender their powers/abilities. For instance, I can't imagine that the Skaze will voluntarily allow themselves to be absorbed). This provides a good motive for why space-traveling Scadrians are hunting various forms of investiture in Sixth of the Dusk in the distant future.

* Yolen is asterisked because - assuming this was the site of Adonalsium's Shattering - Rayse is either from Yolen or has been there. I am unaware of any hostile or aggressive actions - again, other than the Shattering - taken by Rayse on Yolen though. Also, we don't have any proof that Yolen is currently a planet that is invested by a Shard.

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter
Added rationale for my opinion

[BearerOfTheFirstGem]

my interpretation was the dagger's blade is comprised of awakened metal (rationale in bullets below). the retrofitted investiture catching gem on handle fits the dawnshard theory, but the dawnshards are OG and if odium had weapons at his disposal capable of killing the heralds during previous desolations i'd assume he'd killed at least a few in the past. so i think it's a hybrid. i like the idea of hemalurgy, but the random gut stab doesn't fit the precision MB era 1 indicates that hemalurgy requires.

• when moash kills jezrien, the wound emits black smoke that pools on the ground.
• i'd have to track down the WoB, but i remember reading elsewhere that nightblood can kill across all three realms, which i assume is necessary to sever a herald's bond to the spiritual realm?
• vasher states in the warbreaker prologue that he has only awakened metal on a few select occasions. so far there are two notable awakened blades, neither of which were awakened by vasher.
• it's been hinted that vasher and vivenna traveled to roshar via an interstellar worldhopping trade caravan. i think a case could be made that vasher knew of the caravan previously from his lone-wolf mercenary days, and may well have bartered awakened goods for other forms of investiture or refuge during his travels.
• there is presumably an unresolved conflict between vasher and vivenna. while this may have to do with the backstory of how the nightwatcher ended up in possession of nightblood, i think a case could be made that vivenna learned of vasher trading black market awakened weapons like a war dog and couldn't stomach the thought after the attempted coup d'etat in hallendren.
• and if you dislike the idea that vasher awakened the dagger, there's always the possibility that Odium observed the devastation of nightblood at the battle of thaylen fields or prior and mimicked its investiture in rosharan form. 

[Shardbearer]

It's not a dawnshard. WOB:

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Is the sapphire in the white-gold blade specifically for Jezrien?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Uh, yes.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Do the gems swap out, or are there different weapons? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I'll RAFO that one.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they Dawnshards? Or blades of Odium, like Honorblades?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Those are not Dawnshards. Good question.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

And also this other one:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

The knife used by Moash is "something similar to hemalurgy."

I7Ax [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Is it a Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Good question but no.

Oathbringer Liverpool signing (Nov. 29, 2017)

 

[BearerOfTheFirstGem]

I’m confused why no one is focusing on the fact that black smoke pooling is a consistent theme from both Nightblood/Sword-Nimi and the “dagger”. Additionally, Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow observes Ruin in the cognitive realm as tempestuous black smoke. I think it’s therefore evident that the associated power of the dagger is more likely batesian mimicry of nightblood (especially considering good ol rayse just watched that bad boy work his game on the thaylen fields) than it is some form of investiture worthy of research

[Honorless]

People have noted the black smoke and associated it with similar Realmatic mechanics as Nightblood or presence of Investiture attuned towards Ruin since we've had confirmation that Nightblood does contain Ruin's Investiture, as well as the possible connection with Hemalurgy

Edited February 13, 2020 by Honorless

[Frustration]

The dagger is a weak Nightblood, if you read it again, the blade leaves a blackened wound.

[Chaos]

Friends, there is no need to reply and get on people's cases about topic necromancy. Firstly, many very old topics have already been closed and I deemed OB stuff and on to be okay. 

I see no reason why one should make a new topic when there's a perfectly fine one here. Relax on complaining about topic necromancy. Don't post off topic, instead just report and we will evaluate.

Sure, the topic is a bit old, but it's not like there's been new Stormlight to read. It's not like it's pre OB or 2014 (and in fact those topics that old should already be locked, and this not an issue).

Please carry on, if people like.

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Friends, there is no need to reply and get on people's cases about topic necromancy. Firstly, many very old topics have already been closed and I deemed OB stuff and on to be okay. 

I see no reason why one should make a new topic when there's a perfectly fine one here. Relax on complaining about topic necromancy. Don't post off topic, instead just report and we will evaluate.

Sure, the topic is a bit old, but it's not like there's been new Stormlight to read. It's not like it's pre OB or 2014 (and in fact those topics that old should already be locked, and this not an issue).

Please carry on, if people like.

This one's on me. Apologies my friends, I didnt mean to make a thing of it, or to derail the conversation.  In the last fan-site I haunted with any regularity, zombie jokes were the common community response, but with no animosity intended. But then that fandom actually featured necromancers in the setting, so it probably fit better.  Again, I am sorry. 

 

 

To the Topic: 

Since we have WOB that that it's not a Dawnshard, I tend to lean toward it being more of a basic mechanical Gem-Fabrial sort of thing. The WOB statement is that philosophically similar to Hemalurgy from a realmic POV, but distinct enough makes me think it's not literally a hemalurgic spike or Odium's Godmetal actually being hacked into the Metallic Arts.  I think the similarity is that it's using a physical wound and the flowing blood to access the Spiritweb the same way spikes do.  The rest I think is a more traditional Metal&Gem fabrial that traps a Cognitive shadow at the moment of death.  I dont know if he was ripped out, of just killed and snatched on his way back to Braize, but the end result is a Cognitive Shadow trapped in what I assume is a specially prepared Gem.  I tend to be in the camp that it's a Godmetal, but there are so many possibilities that I dont have any specific theory on what it might add functionally.  I have to wonder if it's a voidspren in some sort of unique shardblade form, or just an honorblade equivalent in the sense of a Godmetal Fabrial.

 

Clarifying Questions I think would illuminate:

• Did the knife wound kill him, or did the magical effect do it?  The former means it was more just trapping him on his way back to Braize (possibly breaking the Oathpact cycle for him entirely), while the latter would indicate that it actively and magically ripped him out of the body more closely like Hemalurgy.  
• Would the same process (if not the same knife) work against a Returned?  Im thinking it all hinges on the fact that the target is a Cognitive Shadow and not a normal (living) person. 
• Does that Yellow-white metal have a function in the Metallic Arts?  Would confirm if it's literal Hemalurgy, and might imply that Odium had hacked into the Metallic arts, which would imply that it has an allomantic and feruchemical function as well. 

[XeGnome]

Long time reader, first time posting:

I think it is interesting that the fused/Odium had Moash kill him.  I mean, they knew the herald was there and had access to him but they needed Moash to do the deed.   There must be something that is dangerous about the knife to fused/singers:

Could there have been a “required component” that a human (or maybe something about Moash) had to do the stabbing.

Could the danger they feared be they would have been trapped in the gem with him by using the knife?

[Honorless]

16 hours ago, XeGnome said:

Long time reader, first time posting:

I think it is interesting that the fused/Odium had Moash kill him.  I mean, they knew the herald was there and had access to him but they needed Moash to do the deed.   There must be something that is dangerous about the knife to fused/singers:

Could there have been a “required component” that a human (or maybe something about Moash) had to do the stabbing.

Could the danger they feared be they would have been trapped in the gem with him by using the knife?

Intriguing thought... also welcome to the Shard!

[Eternal Khol]

I think the knife was the Odium's god metal or the equivalent of whatever honor/sharblades are made out of

Gold is Odium's color as was the knife

Its not a lot but its what I got