[OB] House Sadeas & Adolin's Murder Consequences

[KidWayne]

I'm getting frustrated with some of you all who are complaining about Adolin's perceived "lack of consequences" for murdering Torol Sadeas. So, here's what I want everyone to know...

1. Nobody wanted to read about a bunch of political infighting among the Alethi highprinces. That's not what OB was about. It would have slowed down the plot to a frustrating extent.
2. Adolin did not escape unscathed. Dalinar now thinks less of him (paraphrased from Dalinar's last viewpoint: "Adolin was not the man I believed he was") and he was judged to be unfit to take up the Alethi throne because of his actions.
3. House Sadeas is more or less finished. Ialai has left Urithiru in disgrace, the military forces loyal to house Sadeas joined up with the Voidbringers, and I think its very likely that the high-princedom occupied by Sadeas will be given to another lesser-but-deserving house and renamed.
4. Yes, Adolin got away with murder. His cousins and his father held all the positions of authority that would be responsible for punishing him. Kaladin always has been quick to point out how privileged Adolin is.
5. The story did not forget about Torol Sadeas' murder, nor did it fail to address the implications of it; only the apprehension and punishment of the murderer was not addressed, and that was because there was nothing to implicate the actual murderer outside of a motive. When Adolin finally confesses, his accuser and political opponent had already been discredited.
6. Sadeas engaged no fewer than two attempted murders on the leadership of house Kohlin.
7. In the end, everyone sees that Adolin's slaying Sadeas was a kind of vigilante justice. It's not ideal and in less extreme circumstances, it would be more of a problem but these are extreme circumstances. Sadeas had been and was always working against national priorities since the opening of the story in Way of Kings. Either way, that treasonous behavior was put on public display in the Battle of Thaylen City. Crimes against traitors tend to be forgotten (and/or forgiven) in the fog of war.

So, in light of all of these things, I don't understand why people found Adolin's story arc to be somehow incomplete. Did you guys really want to read about a bunch of boring political intrigue that could only have resulted in either a slap on the wrist or execution (remember what Dalinar said about imprisoning shardbearers)? The only other punishment that makes sense would have been a prison stay following a confiscation of Adolin's shards, but that would have ruined the whole Maya plot line.

Since space is limited I wholeheartedly agree with Brandon's decision to get going on the more interesting aspects of the book. I'm glad he didn't waste words on arguments over Adolin's punishment. However, I don't think that we've seen the end of the fallout either; losing his father's respect is going to cost him.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by KidWayne

[Fifth of Daybreak]

It's not the only place where consequences have been skipped over for the sake of the storyline either. Kaladin has faced no scrutiny whatsoever for his most trusted officer and shardbearer defecting and attempting to kill the king, but there hasn't been anywhere near the storm about that on the forums from what I've seen. 

 

Honestly, I think Sadeas was finished if Adolin hadn't killed him, again, because of consequences that were never addressed. You brought up the second assassination attempt, and that would've come back squarely in Sadeas's camp with a proper investigation. Adolin mentioned the carpenter with the birthmark killed himself with poison, but that didn't bury the lead since Kaladin survived. Kaladin recognized the man from Sadeas's camp before the attempt, would have been able to recognize him and point towards Sadeas following his return, and had other bridgemen to back him up. From there, it would be a matter of finding people among Sadeas's carpenters who knew him, and following the bribe money that convinced him to become a martyr, as there had to be some kind of kickback to his family or something to get him to willingly walk to his death. 

 

I agree with everything you said. I think it's unfair to say that Adolin faced no fallout for this when so many characters get away with so much. Shallan stole from Jasnah and essentially blackmails her way back into favor. Jasnah leaves a soulcast crystal corpse as proof of her murders in Kharbranth. Dalinar used his position to beat the King, having his guards show they were loyal to him instead of Elhokar, which, looking at his sudden increase in influence and power in WoR, is, in essence, a military coup. Teft was arrested for public intoxication and it was swept under the rug. It's not like Adolin is the only one with plot armor.

[kari-no-sugata]

To put it simply, I was expecting more drama. It felt somewhat underwhelming compared to what seemed to have been promised.

We did at least have some inner conflict, self-reflection and various consequences but it felt like there could have been more drama.

It seems unlikely that this will be significant in the next book either. It might not be completely over but I very much doubt it'll be significant.

[StormingTexan]

I'm one of the ones that was disappointed with the lack of consequences and a lot it is probably just the build up of anticipation over a few years. It seemed like such a major part of the plot and source of tension then just kind of fizzled out in OB. I agree the more I look at it there are consequences. I don't think he wanted to be king regardless so the only real one was Dalinar loosing faith which is extremely hypocritical I might add and I bet short lived if he applies his own most recent oath to his son as well. It was basically just a little lackluster but hey if that is the direction Brandon wanted to take then it is his call. 

1 hour ago, KidWayne said:

Either way, that treasonous behavior was put on public display in the Battle of Thaylen City. Crimes against traitors tend to be forgotten (and/or forgiven) in the fog of war.

If I read this right in the book the entire reason Odium was able to bond with his army was the fact they believed Dalinar killed their highprince so I don't see how this is a point of forgiveness. Would this have even happened if he wasn't murdered by Adolin? 

Edited November 20, 2017 by StormingTexan

[KidWayne]

@StormingTexan That's an interesting viewpoint on the possession of Sadeas' soldiers in Thaylen City. I would say that you're right, it would not have happened. However, it could have then happened to the remnants of house Kohlin's soldiers who would still be angry at Sadeas for his betrayal on the Tower. Odium would have done this to somebody is all I'm saying; he will probably do it again to someone else (there are plenty of options for those with grievances on Roshar).

It's a point of forgiveness in-world because not everyone knows how or why house Sadeas turned traitor.

[PhineasGage]

 

53 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

If I read this right in the book the entire reason Odium was able to bond with his army was the fact they believed Dalinar killed their highprince so I don't see how this is a point of forgiveness.

I read it this way too.I was always worried that Adolin may have been a pawn of Odium's in this moment because he acted out of hatred. Now I am not clear that hatred is actually Odium's defining Intent but it certainly is  present when Dalinar and he interact. Given the way Odium is implied to be very much playing the long game with multiple contingencies, I am concerned that Adolin was acting as an agent of Odium (unknowingly). In addition to this, he loses control several times in Sadeas' presence and there is a "surge" linked with him each time - whilst one could, of course, believe this is surgebinding manifesting (and I have no evidence to assume that it isn't) we could also wonder if it is voidbinding or something similar occuring as the Fused obviously have access to the surges.

I also think that many people seem to see the Sadeas murder as a good thing. Personally, I don't. For one thing I can't see how you can claim the moral highground if you commit murder and then show no real remorse afterwards. The loss of Sadeas potentially has other consequences that the battle at Thaylen city as well. Ialai becomes unpredictable and ends up with a Ghostblood as some kind of body guard. Mraize claims that she is not a member of their group, but a) can we trust him really and b ) even if he is telling the truth, it implies she is mixing with not-good groups. Indeed we know she is because she appoints Amaram to be the leader of House Sadeas. Who knows what else she does? We know she has the biggest network of spies in the kingdom of Alethkar - she could very easily be pulling strings that we aren't even aware of yet. The best option was to keep Sadeas alive because he was a known quantity - and you can plan for it. Once he dies, the situation is much more fluid. 

For me anyway, the worst thing about the situation is that Adolin is not sorry. Adolin is better than that. If he had shown remorse, he'd be easier to forgive, but he doesn't. This feels too much like an emotion that he is choosing to give up. It seems that because he feels that Sadeas "deserved" to be killed, Adolin isn't really responsible. This worries me because the theme throughout OB was accepting responsibility, not dodging it.

 

[Egomere]

Does acting with Passion / Hatred instantly open you up to Odium influence though or does Odium have to have an active role in 'priming' people (like with the thrill and alethi in general leading to Dalinar. I mean on Adolins behalf it was proably a 1 time deal - but will that make him susceptible to future manipulation by Adolin (even if this time ist wasn't).

And despite not having seen the consequnces yet I would have said I hope there were - glossing over it would be a bad thing for people trying to hold to honour beat a near god strength shard of evil intent.

Something needs to happen politically imo.

 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Given the way Odium is implied to be very much playing the long game with multiple contingencies, I am concerned that Adolin was acting as an agent of Odium (unknowingly). In addition to this, he loses control several times in Sadeas' presence and there is a "surge" linked with him each time - whilst one could, of course, believe this is surgebinding manifesting (and I have no evidence to assume that it isn't) we could also wonder if it is voidbinding or something similar occuring as the Fused obviously have access to the surges.

Quote

Blightsong (paraphrased)

Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That was all Adolin.

Sorry, mate.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44-minicon-2015/#e659

[PhineasGage]

51 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Sorry, mate.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44-minicon-2015/#e659

No, thats fantastic! thank you so much!

[shawnhargreaves]

re. Ialai:

Quote

We know she has the biggest network of spies in the kingdom of Alethkar - she could very easily be pulling strings that we aren't even aware of yet.

But Alethkar has fallen now!  I think a lot of things that used to matter just got swept away in a major way.  We're left with a bunch of highprinces, Radiants, and armies, separated from their former kingdom which basically no longer exists.  It's hard to imagine that House Sadeas will have any influence or plot impact going forward.

(although, Brandon does have a track record of doing things that I found hard to imagine until I read them, so who knows :-)

fwiw I think Adolin acted honorably here, at least according to one of the many possible codes of honor that we've seen in action.  The differences between Radiant orders make it quite clear that there are multiple equally valid codes in action at the same time.  Killing Sadeas wasn't Kaladin-honorable or Dalinar-honorable, but there is a form of honor in removing someone who a: attacked you first and b: was doing real and ongoing harm to the world.  Shallan felt that way, for instance.

I agree with the OP that there were consequences.  Adolin never regretted what he did, though, and I'm ok with that.  It's not the choice I would have hoped to make myself, but it's a valid choice and he owned it.  Good for him.

Edited November 21, 2017 by shawnhargreaves

[lordofsoup]

I thought that the punishments were too severe if anything.  The Aetheli rule has always been that Shardbearers are above the law for better or for worse.  Dalinar tells Kaladin the same thing in regards to Amaram.

Dalinar is disappointed in him, I'm sure that's punishment enough considering how much he looks up to his father.

[+Bliev]

I feel like there’s a difference between taking responsibility and regret/guilt. Adolin admits his crime to his betrothed and to his father. He takes responsibility, although not immediately. He doesn’t have to show remorse if he doesn’t feel it, particularly if, as you all mention, he isn’t strictly following Dalinar’s code of honor, or Kal’s. I think the juxtaposition of different types of “honor” is truly fascinating here, and at the root seems to be acknowledging ones own contributions and taking responsibility. Shallan’s truths and lies, Kal’s understanding when he’s not responsible, Dalinar’s ownership of his past. Adolin is on his own path now, with Shallan and maya, and i think this was a big step for him. 

 

Personally, I like that Shallan gave him that moral support in that moment, and they seemed to understand each other. Owning your choices, and the consequences, even if you can’t regret them. Now we will see how Shallan manages this when speaking with her brothers about Kal and Heleran.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

13 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Kal and Heleran

Speaking of unexplored consequences.

[+Bliev]

Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Speaking of unexplored consequences.

Ya ain’t lying. Now i know why BS saved this for book 4: Shallan’s brothers are here now. Wooo.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

Ya ain’t lying. Now i know why BS saved this for book 4: Shallan’s brothers are here now. Wooo.

I really enjoy how you phrased your post about owning your actions. It's pretty significant to me that Kaladin still hasn't owned up to Shallan personally about Helaran.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[+Bliev]

4 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I really enjoy how you phrased your post about owning your actions. It's pretty significant to me that Kaladin still hasn't owned up to Shallan personally about Helaran.

It really stuck out to me. Such levels of complex moral reasoning, you know? I think kal’s conversation with mutant Amaram is a foreshadowing to this taking of responsibility for Kal, too: that he did choose to kill Helaran. That he is responsible, even if he’d do it all over again. It was his duty and his choice. And it set into motion so much of where we are now. It will be interesting to see if  owning that to Shallan’s Family might be a type of progression for him too. 

[Dreamstorm]

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

It really stuck out to me. Such levels of complex moral reasoning, you know? I think kal’s conversation with mutant Amaram is a foreshadowing to this taking of responsibility for Kal, too: that he did choose to kill Helaran. That he is responsible, even if he’d do it all over again. It was his duty and his choice. And it set into motion so much of where we are now. It will be interesting to see if  owning that to Shallan’s Family might be a type of progression for him too. 

I thought it was very interesting that during the Amaram fight, Kaladin refers to the shardblade as "Helaran's sword".

[GoddessIMHO]

If Adolin becomes a Radiant at some point or even just revives his sword. He is most likely under the Edgedancer style oaths. I believe they were said to be less demanding than the other groups. I doubt that killing Sadeus would even be an issue for them.

You won't find many who aren't like Shallan in this regard. Good riddance. The Dalinar issue with Adolin over this should be real interesting when Adolin learns how his Mother was killed. No one anywhere will say that was for the general good.