[OB] “The Secret” Timeline Question

[shawnhargreaves]

On 11/20/2017 at 10:50 AM, KidWayne said:

I'm not sure how the Fused initially gained access to the surges, but they mirror the Knights Radiant in almost every other respect.

In many ways the Fused mirror the Heralds more closely than the Knights Radiant.

I have a crazy idea that the Fused gained access to the surges because they were originally created by Honor rather than Odium:

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by shawnhargreaves

[Noblehunter]

From the Secret History, it seems one of the key parts of returning from the Cognitive realm is Connection, which seems to be strongly associated with Honor. Dalinar's language trick is a known use of Connection and it seemed to be part of his Unity CMOA.

I think the relationships between the Shards and species on Roshar were really complicated, with loyalties and allegiances shifting back-and-forth. I'm hoping Szeth's flashbacks will shed light on the Shin's history which might be less interrupted than the pre-dominantly Vorin history we've had from now. I'm also hoping the flashbacks we were told would be Eshonai's will be more of a history of the Parsh.

I think the Fused showed up in reaction to Human encroachment and signed up with Odium to help drive humans back. As they became increasingly unstable and genocidal, the Oathpact was formed.

[DocHoliday]

It needs to be pointed out that the Fused didn't always have access to the Surges. At some point in the Desolation cycles the gained the ability to use them. Prior to that, they were simply re-incarnating Parshmen. 

 

[What's a Seawolf?]

On 11/20/2017 at 0:56 PM, Jaconis said:

6. This anger sets them to eagerly accept the help of Odium, who agrees to revive their best and brightest after each death until they destroy the humans. My theory here is that this invests Odium enough in this system that he can’t leave. Desolation 2.

I really like this theory.  Puts more weight into the Parsh's feeling of betrayal, if Honor and Cultivation sided with humans knowing it would cause the Parsh to constantly get reborn and stuck in Braize, in order to trap Odium.

It does bring up the question of why H/C would want that to begin with, and not just get Odium to leave the system entirely.

[shawnhargreaves]

39 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

It needs to be pointed out that the Fused didn't always have access to the Surges. At some point in the Desolation cycles the gained the ability to use them. Prior to that, they were simply re-incarnating Parshmen.

I didn't understand this part of OB.  We were told that, even before gaining the Surges, the Fused were impossible to defeat because they reincarnated every time they were killed.  But in order to reincarnate, they had to use up an existing Parshendi!  So this was just trading one potential warrior for another.  Sure, that could be an upgrade if the Fused took over someone who was untrained/unskilled, but they'd still run out of bodies in the end.  Doesn't seem as massive an advantage as it was portrayed.

Am I missing something, or was Stormfather's explanation of this history missing something?

[RShara]

The WoR part 2 Epigraphs have some hints as to what happened.

Quote

’Tis said it was warm in the land far away

When Voidbringers entered our songs.

We brought them home to stay

And then those homes became their own,

It happened gradually.

And years ahead ’twil still be said ’tis how it has to be.

—From the Listener Song of Histories, 12th stanza

So humans taking over Listener lands happened slowly.  I assume, as the human population grew, they just started settling more and more land, similar to what happened here in the US with the European settlers and the Native Americans.

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can’t provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men.

—From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza

This seems to confirm the idea that the spren betrayal angered them enough that they turned to Odium, in order to regain their powers and forms.

Quote

But it is not impossible to blend

Their Surges to ours in the end.

It has been promised and it can come.

Or do we understand the sum?

We question not if they can have us then,

But if we dare to have them again.

—From the Listener Song of Spren, 10th stanza

"It's not impossible to blend their surges to ours in the end" might be referring to how Venli's spren (highspren? lightspren?) bound the voidspren into her heart, so now she has access to both.  And how Renarin is bonded to a corrupted Truthwatcher spren.

 

Quote

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,

Of one who seeks to take control,

Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.

They are his spren, his gift, his price.

But the nightforms speak of future life,

A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite.

—From the Listener Song of Secrets, final stanza

So it looks like the Unmade and the voidspren are definitely Splinters of pure Odium.  But "A Challenged champion.  A strife even he must requite" is most interesting to me.  It confirms Tanavast telling Dalinar to get him to appoint a champion.