[OB] No, we killed you.

[Blazenella]

Not sure if someone has said this yet, but maybe the parshwomen Dalinar see's in his visions is Cultivation.

[DocHoliday]

7 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Unity sounds a lot like The One that Evi would talk about. But why would Odium care that much about Evi dying? He was in a panic at this point. This was big enough that he ran for dear life. 

It is possible he was talking about Honor, but it really fits Adonalsium best - killed by a group and a transcendent powerhouse. 

Just want to point out the Evi confirmed for us who The One is. It's Neo, and always has been.

Nah, but it is the Night Watcher.

[joesleepsalot]

4 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

To answer the bolded: If it was any other author, I'd agree with you. But he literally put the ending of the three-book Mistborn original trilogy in the first page of the series. This would not be even close to the first time he has hidden something as major as that.

I dunno....To me it doesn’t jive with the feeling of the entire section, and Odium’s rage/shock... which he brought up later on to Mr T about Dalinar’s ascension. Which is significant. Again, why does Taln literally have 1 moment of Lucidity which happens to coincide with the ascension? Which happens to happen at the same time Odium goes crazy. The Evi theory feels like jigsaw pieces that don’t fit being forced together. 

Huge climactic moment of the book is either centered around the primary conflict/restoration of the good deity, or frankly wasted on some relatively obscure character that we’ve only met for a couple of chapters. I think the Evi moment received final closure when Dalinar received forgiveness. 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

7 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

I dunno....To me it doesn’t jive with the feeling of the entire section, and Odium’s rage/shock... which he brought up later on to Mr T about Dalinar’s ascension. Which is significant. Again, why does Taln literally have 1 moment of Lucidity which happens to coincide with the ascension? Which happens to happen at the same time Odium goes crazy. The Evi theory feels like jigsaw pieces that don’t fit being forced together. 

Huge climactic moment of the book is either centered around the primary conflict/restoration of the good deity, or frankly wasted on some relatively obscure character that we’ve only met for a couple of chapters. I think the Evi moment received final closure when Dalinar received forgiveness. 

Oh, I think we misunderstood each other. I don't think it was Evi that Odium was talking about. I think it was either Honor, or Adonalsium. I am much more convinced it was Adonalsium, because I don't think that Odium feared Honor that much. He certainly wouldn't want to fight him, but Rayse seemed to be crapping his pants. My thoughts on the "we" are that either he meant the other Shards killing Adonalsium, or that Cultivation helped him kill Honor. I posted my reasoning for it upthread, and in another thread about Honor's death.

[Andy92]

We just need to get someone to ask Brandon at a book signing who "we" and "you" are in this sentence. 99% sure of a RAFO...unless if it's not supposed to be as ambiguous as we're making it out to be.

Nah, this is Sanderson. RAFO time. 

[MothersMilkInACup]

I'm probably way off base here because I'm not the most cosmere savvy person in the... cosmere... but I took it as a reference to adonalsium. Not that Dalinar became it/him but that Odium was mistaken for a second.

Hear me out.

Kaladin was said to be invested so radiant power isn't all in the spren. Dalinar is invested by Cultivation from her vine attack thingy, Honor through the stormfather, and Odium through the thrill. What I'm getting at is I believe he did something adonalsium-y at that point through his connection to three different shards and the nature of Bondsmiths. 

Like what if Dalinar eventually became a new shard by collecting bits of investiture from different existing shards. Maybe that's why Hoid is trying to collect them all? 

Edited November 27, 2017 by MothersMilkInACup

[DocHoliday]

1 hour ago, MothersMilkInACup said:

I'm probably way off base here because I'm not the most cosmere savvy person in the... cosmere... but I took it as a reference to adonalsium. Not that Dalinar became it/him but that Odium was mistaken for a second.

Hear me out.

Kaladin was said to be invested so radiant power isn't all in the spren. Dalinar is invested by Cultivation from her vine attack thingy, Honor through the stormfather, and Odium through the thrill. What I'm getting at is I believe he did something adonalsium-y at that point through his connection to three different shards and the nature of Bondsmiths. 

Like what if Dalinar eventually became a new shard by collecting bits of investiture from different existing shards. Maybe that's why Hoid is trying to collect them all? 

#Shout out Elayne

[Fifth of Daybreak]

6 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

Again, why does Taln literally have 1 moment of Lucidity which happens to coincide with the ascension?

Taln had a moment of lucidity before when confronted with familiar investiture being used. 

Quote

“One of Ishar’s Knights,” the madman whispered. His eyes narrowed. “I remember . . . He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk. It hasn’t been talk for thousands of years. But . . . When . . .”

WoR A Burning World

 

Quote

6 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

or frankly wasted on some relatively obscure character that we’ve only met for a couple of chapters.

 

Relatively obscure? Dalinar's entire arc is about his wife, she's been teased for the past two books and it's because of her death that Dalinar almost became Odium's champion. That's hardly 'relatively obscure.' Relatively obscure is Sheler, not a character who has huge amounts of influence on three of the protagonists and who's shadow has been cast over the events of an entire book.

 

6 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

I think the Evi moment received final closure when Dalinar received forgiveness. 

Which, to quote you, happens at the same moment Odium goes crazy. 

6 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I don't think that Odium feared Honor that much. He certainly wouldn't want to fight him, but Rayse seemed to be crapping his pants.

I've tried to establish several times, we know that Odium was not afraid because he could not fight Dalinar personally and win, he's beaten Honor before. His scene with King T tells us that his concern is directly because he's agreed to a contest of Champions and he has no champion. We have no evidence he is actually scared for any other reason than his entire plan has been flipped on it's head and now if his champion loses his desolation gets nipped in the bud. 

[Blazenella]

10 hours ago, MothersMilkInACup said:

Like what if Dalinar eventually became a new shard by collecting bits of investiture from different existing shards. Maybe that's why Hoid is trying to collect them all? 

It's a good theory. A lot of people think he is going to combine Cultivation, Honor, and Odium and become like a super god.  He may take it a step further and straight up reform adonalsium. But, and heres the real reason Im posting this... 

HOIDS GOTTA CATCH EM ALL, COSMERE EDITION

[Raleford]

This thread gave me an interesting idea as well. What if Evi never passed on...

(Mistborn spoiler:)

Spoiler

Like Kelsier.

Maybe even she knew something the whole time, possibly due to her connection with cultivation (she was the one who kept encouraging Dalinar to visit the nightmother). In the flashbacks we see her constantly trying to help Dalinar be a better person and escape the thrill and war, and not too mention she agreed to the marriage/alliance to begin with even though she knew they had such conflicting beliefs. Maybe she had some inkling of his future importance, and even when killed, she hung around to watch him and help him in his most dire moment.

Obviously wild speculation is wild

(Mistborn spoiler:)

Spoiler

And it would be a bit of a revamp on Kelsier's experience

But it could still be fun. It would fit with Brandon's interest in behind the scenes work and side events or characters actually being more important than realized.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

On 11/27/2017 at 11:18 AM, Raleford said:

This thread gave me an interesting idea as well. What if Evi never passed on...

I've been mulling that over, but I haven't seen any hints of her having any large amounts of investiture which is usually a requirement to becoming a cognitive Shadow. I think the more likely candidate to be pulling the strings would be Nohadon. We know he was a Surgebinder so he's got the investiture to have survived longer in transition and found a way to preserve his cognitive Shadow. He's also the only other character that should be reliably dead who has communicated with Dalinar recently. 

Quote

 

Is Nohadon possibly another Bondsmith who then bound his cognitive Shadow to another sibling perhaps? 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[soyperson]

Some theories on this!

The first is my "safe" theory: Odium, when he says "No! We killed you!" simply means that he and his forces ("we"), using Dalinar's memories, the awful man Dalinar was when he had the Thrill, and Taravangian's machinations to degrade and cast doubt and fear onto Dalinar, tried to effectively disable and kill ("killed") the good man Dalinar that we have known for the past two books ("you"). This could also be interpreted as, since Dalinar is using Honor's power and His Perpendicularity, Odium is affirming that he and his forces ("we") killed ("killed") Honor ("you"), almost as if in denial of what's going on.

Now for the crackpot theory.

Odium and Cultivation, in the past ("we") conspired, like the gods of Olympus throwing the gold net over Zeus but more deadly, to kill ("killed") Honor ("you").

[Ari]

On 11/20/2017 at 10:25 PM, hoser said:

I must be a simpleton.  Three simple words: "we killed you".  I don't understand any of them. 

1. I splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + minions and/or traitors; "killed" = Splintering of Honor and maybe subsequent death of Tanavast): Obvious.  But Odium doesn't seem like the most likely to be sharing credit with what he probably sees as lesser contributors.  And Dalinar didn't say he was Honor.  He said he was Unity.  
2. We Shards splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + another Shard; "killed" as above): Also obvious.  What other Shard?  Nepene suggested Autonomy below.  Cultivation and Honor are local, but surprising possibilities given what we understand of their motivations.  But why did Dalinar say he was Unity?
3. Our group Shattered Adonalsium ("you" = Adonalsium; Implicitly "we" = Rayse + other actors; "killed" = Shattering of Adonalsium):  Does that mean that Dalinar reminds him of Adonalsium?  Is Unity the same as Adonalsium?  Is Dalinar rebuilding Adonalsium?  Why does Syl think it's Honor's Perpendicularity?  Because Honor was part of Adonalsium and she didn't know Adonalsium?
4. Dalinar and I killed Evi ("you" = Evi; "we" = Odium + Dalinar; "killed" = normal human death): Fifth of Daybreak proposed this below.  The "we" makes sense.  I assume that the voice is Evi and she has lingered somehow, rather than traveling beyond.  But does Odium even know about the communication between what I presume to be Evi and Dalinar?  Why would Odium focus on a long-dead pawn in the face of a presence of something that sees him as small that he is apparently unwilling to face?  In context, wouldn't Odium be addressing what's in front of him?
5. Dalinar's anger and I overcame Dalinar's responsible, growing self ("you" = new, controlled Dalinar; "we" = Odium + Dalinar's anger; "killed" = human internal transformation): Crimson Not Blood suggests this below. 
6. Autonomy and I splintered Unity: mirianme proposes this on the second page. 

A related issue is what Dalinar is becoming and what is influencing him.  It seems awkward to include here.  Is the god beyond encouraging Dalinar to unite the Shards?  What did Tanavast's unity charge in the vision mean?  Unite the human nations?  Unite the humans and the parsh?  Or is Tanavast also encouraging him to unite the Shards?  Was Tanavast under the influence of what Dalinar is perceiving?  Does this deserve it's own thread or should I try to include it? 

You guys have already provided other explanations.  Let's figure this out as well as we can!

I thought it was really obvious that it was either (1) or (2), and my personal money was on (2), with Autonomy in mind, that he may have been addressing the Stormfather as essentially Tanavast's ghost, and this was Odium reacting to the invocation of Honour's perpendicularity, which he might have thought impossible with Tanavast dead.

As to your objection to why Dalinar says he's Unity, I'll go back to the full context here:

Quote

"What are you?" [Venli] whispered as he stood with arms outstretched, holding to the lands of mind and spirit.

He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it, a simple, quiet voice. A woman's voice, so familiar to him.

I forgive you.

Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning.

"I am Unity."

He slammed both hands together.

And combined three realms into one.

Dalinar is answering Venli's question when he says he's Unity, and he's referring to his role as a Bondsmith and unifier, not to any sort of Shard-related ascension, IMO. He arguably might be referring to the Stormfather's identity as a splinter of honour and therefore his role as the Stormfather's Bondsmith, but that's the closest you could get to any shard-related shenanigans here.

I do think "the voice" is also obviously Evi forgiving Dalinar. I'm just not sure that Odium is responding to Evi in any way.

[Isaiah Zayth]

On 11/25/2017 at 5:53 AM, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, uh, that particular WoB made me think of something. (Link is here for the full one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1555)

The way Brandon responded, and the we. I have had this nagging feeling for a while, but this seems to solidify it. Did Cultivation help Rayse kill Tanavast? Because we know Tanavast was growing increasingly erratic near the end. We know that Rayse was already bound for a while before Tanavast was killed. We know Cultivation is willing to "prune" things not conducive to growth. I think it might be possible that because she thought Tanavast was doing more harm than good, she helped Rayse kill him. That would make him saying "We killed you" make a lot more sense if referring to Honor.

Perhaps this is the secret that prompted the Recreance?

We know there was infighting amongst the Knights Radiant before the Recreance. Perhaps knowledge that: 1) humans were the true Voidbringers, 2) Honor was going crazy, and 3) Surgebinding was powerful enough to destroy a whole planet caused Cultivation to seek a pact with the Knights in which they would abandon their Oaths, she would allow/help Odium remove Honor, and the Skybreakers would be tasked with preventing the Knights from returning.

Seems far-fetched, but... hey, most theories are, especially directly after a new Stormlight book.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Isaiah Zayth

[Leuthie]

You're all looking at this way too hard

1) We have no evidence that Odium splintered Honor.  It could very well be that Honor splintered and sacrificed himself.  By doing so, he could control where the pieces of him ended up, allowing for the current final showdown with Odium.  Odium did kill Tanavast, but not before Tanavast splintered himself as he saw fit (most likely with Cultivation's guidance).  Odium may be none the wiser to this aspect of Honor's death, leading to his surprise.

2) At the time of Dalinars ascension, Odium is speaking to his Fused.  "We" could simply be an inclusive term he used because those he makes fight for him are listening. Odium went so far as to deny one of his Lieutenants a body to save Venli just to convince parshman that they should follow Him.  Marketing is important to Him.  He used We because others who helped him kill Honor are listening.

3) Syl knows exactly what Dalinar is doing when he opens up the perpendicularity.  She even has a name for it.  So, it's been done before. Likely by Honor.  He's not tapping into some new God power.  He's using the power Honor left for him.

4) Unity is not a new Shard.  "I am Unity" is a Bondsmith Ideal.  Really surprised no one has brought that possibility up.  It could also be an aspect of Honor; a named Splinter, if you will.  It could also be how Dalinar chose to answer Venli when she asked who he was.

 

I find it hard to believe that B.S. reached very far out into the Cosmere for this scene. Dalinar has tapped into a power that Tanavast set up for him. Syl's name for it makes this clear.  Odium is a trickster/marketer of hate and uses the inclusive We because his followers are listening. 

"We killed you" is not some hint or foreshadowing.  It's just Odium being surprised while surrounded by his followers.

"I am Unity" is, IMO, Dalinar's interpretation of Intent of the Splinter that Honor left for him in Stormfather.  It would greatly explain why Stormfather would remember a ranting Honor around the time of the Recreance.  Honor without the Unity aspect of his intent wouldn't be as good at smoothing over things with his charges.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Leuthie
Oops

[dantlee]

4 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

You're all looking at this way too hard

1) We have no evidence that Odium splintered Honor.  It could very well be that Honor splintered and sacrificed himself.  By doing so, he could control where the pieces of him ended up, allowing for the current final showdown with Odium.  Odium did kill Tanavast, but not before Tanavast splintered himself as he saw fit (most likely with Cultivation's guidance).  Odium may be none the wiser to this aspect of Honor's death, leading to his surprise.

2) At the time of Dalinars ascension, Odium is speaking to his Fused.  "We" could simply be an inclusive term he used because those he makes fight for him are listening. Odium went so far as to deny one of his Lieutenants a body to save Venli just to convince parshman that they should follow Him.  Marketing is important to Him.  He used We because others who helped him kill Honor are listening.

3) Syl knows exactly what Dalinar is doing when he opens up the perpendicularity.  She even has a name for it.  So, it's been done before. Likely by Honor.  He's not tapping into some new God power.  He's using the power Honor left for him.

4) Unity is not a new Shard.  "I am Unity" is a Bondsmith Ideal.  Really surprised no one has brought that possibility up.  It could also be an aspect of Honor; a named Splinter, if you will.  It could also be how Dalinar chose to answer Venli when she asked who he was.

 

I find it hard to believe that B.S. reached very far out into the Cosmere for this scene. Dalinar has tapped into a power that Tanavast set up for him. Syl's name for it makes this clear.  Odium is a trickster/marketer of hate and uses the inclusive We because his followers are listening. 

"We killed you" is not some hint or foreshadowing.  It's just Odium being surprised while surrounded by his followers.

"I am Unity" is, IMO, Dalinar's interpretation of t

1) Well, Honor definitely did leave splinters around before his death, as did Odium (we have WoB that Honorspren and the Unmade are splinters of Honor and Odium, respectively). But I think it's a bit disingenuous to say we have no evidence that Odium splintered Honor. Tanavast literally told Dalinar that Odium killed him. Odium himself says in OB that he can't leave around the Splinters of Honor like he once thought. And the way that the Stormfather speaks about his confrontation with Odium strongly implies he has seen the effects of Odium splintering a shard before: "I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation."

I mostly agree on the rest of your points, though - I find it hard to believe that Unity is actually a new shard, and think it's much likelier that it is part of a bondsmith ideal. As for the "We," I also tend to agree with the idea that "We killed you" refers to "[me and Dalinar] killed [Evi]." 

[Andy92]

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8686

Heh. 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

18 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8686

Heh. 

That stirs the pot quite a lot, doesn't it? A lot of people were REALLY sure it's Evi. Same for Honour. This makes that a lot less clear.

 

[Raykoda]

Dalinar just saying "I am Unity" is pretty flimsy evidence for it being an Intent of a shard.   Remember "I am Hope"? Capitilized and everything, and no one was going crazy claiming that that was a shard Intent.

Imho "You" just being Evi seems a bit to pedestrian and basic for something that Brandon calls "a big RAFO".  On the other hand, Adonalsium is a bit out there for my tastes.  

 

 

[dantlee]

12 hours ago, Andy92 said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8686

Heh. 

I was just going to post this WOB! I was very solidly in the Evi camp until I read this one. I know a RAFO doesn't mean much, but the way Brandon reacts to certain RAFOs is often illuminating, and I think this lends a lot more credence to the idea that Odium is talking about Adonalsium when he says "we killed you." As others have pointed out, Dalinar has at least some investiture from Honor, Odium, and Cultivation, which means it's at least possible that he may indeed be on the way to reforming Adonalsium and not just Honor's shard. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

The WoB makes me think it's Nohadon.

[ScavellTane]

For all we know it could be the Sibling.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

28 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

For all we know it could be the Sibling.

What specifically makes you say that?

[ScavellTane]

Absolutely nothing.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

4 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Absolutely nothing.

I'd disagree with the 'for all we know' portion then. There's a lot of foreshadowing that hints at different people, and without foreshadowing for the Sibling, I wouldn't consider it in the running with all that we know.