hoser

[OB] No, we killed you.

109 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, hoser said:

Here is the post in question:

 

I narrowed it down to a very simple statement.  There are only two possible things that I could be disagreeing with:

  1. We know that there are no unintentional splinters of Honor
  2. We know that there are no intentional splinters.

The second is absurd, given the quote you offered and our knowledge of the Honorblades.  So there is only one thing I could reasonably be disagreeing with: #1.  So, while it was obvious to me at the time what I was disagreeing with, in retrospect I see that I could have been clearer.  I agree that none of my quotes directly contradict the thesis, which is why I just stated that I did not know this.  For me, the quotes contradict the the "we know" part.  You may "know," but I sure don't.  The quotes were just intended to suggest why I might doubt the conclusion that there weren't any unintentional splinters.  In any case, you could have simply asked for clarification rather than going off on me as you did (quoted below):  

Yuk, what a mess.  I don't really want to argue with you.  Please let me try something different.  

  1. I found your initial interpretation about the lack of unintentional splinters of Honor to be unsupported by the evidence.  
  2. I didn't like being told that I agreed with it: "We know ..."
  3. I could have stated my initial disagreement more clearly.
  4. I think you could have asked for clarification more pleasantly.  
  5. I could definitely been more constructive in my next 2 responses.  Maybe you could have also, 
  6. Thanks for accepting my apology.
  7. There is a lot of back and forth here that I don't particularly care about except that I am sure some of it could have been better said by me and I'm not sure that you couldn't have said some things better.  I want to apologize for my part, but I don't want to say that it was all my fault. Does that seem fair enough to you to go forward with?
  8. If we can get past the defensiveness, I would like to try to summarize the Cosmere-related parts of our spirited discussion.  

Your thesis is that "we killed you" means "Dalinar and Odium killed Evi's physical body."

I will edit in more later 

 

I'm willing to own my snark. We both exhibited behavior that caused each other frustration. It's one of the unfortunate side effects of non-verbal communication. I'm sorry for my part as well. I would very much like to move past it and continue the discussion.

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I am of the opinion that Cultivation helped do a coup de grace on Honour for 3 reasons:

1) Honour was insane, and as his partner, Cultivation felt she should end his life rather than Odium get the satisfaction. 
      (Honor was insane and hasn't realized this)

2) Cultivation felt that she would be able to gather information about a shattering. Having it happen on her terms could help her learn more.

3) Cultivation could gain some of Honour's power almost like using him as fertilizer.
              - She now is making things like Radiants that don't need stormlight, and Leaders that can see the future (Mr.T)

Possible Fourth 

4) Cultivation could have taken a seed of Honour and used his body as fertilizer. Now Unity is growing out of the powers
             honour left behind. Have her agents somehow collected powers from Sel? Honour + Dominion + Devotion would be
             Unity, no?
Even a pruning of Honour itself could be Unity.  Has Cultivation made a better shard?

Edited by teknopathetic
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So, this feels like Dalinar is channeling the God Beyond, which is potentially but not necessarily Adonalsium. It is hinted at that this is Dalinar's true god.

We can assume that no shard can touch the beyond. Entering is final even for a shard holder.  Dalinar has two interactions with people who have went Beyond: Evi and Nohadon. It is implied that both are true interactions, not Stormfather with a camcorder/talkboy. The only being who could grant this would be the God Beyond, and I therefore conclude him to be the source of the Unite Them mantra, not Honor.

Dalinar's feeling of Odium looking "so small" corroborates this. Odium would be Honor's equal. Only a greater power would make him seem insignificant. 

All this leads me to believe that "I am Unity" was spoken by Adonalsium from Beyond, through Dalinar, and Unity was his pre-shattered power's name/Intent.

Odium felt/heard this, and shat his divine undergarments.

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5 hours ago, Mahoka said:

The only being who could grant this would be the God Beyond,

This isn't necessarily true. Mistborn spoilers.

Spoiler

Melhay

Also, We just took for granted that Sazed is with Tindwyl now. Is that so?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, here's the thing. What Sazed is right now is something of a god in the classic Greek sense—a superpowered human being, elevated to a new stage of existence. Not GOD of all time and space. In a like manner, there are things that Sazed does not have power over. For instance, he couldn't bring Vin and Elend back.

Where Tindwyl exists is beyond space and time, in a place Sazed hasn't learned to touch yet. He might yet. If you want to add in your heads him working through that, feel free. But as it stands at the end of the book, he isn't yet with Tindwyl. (He is, however, with Kelsier—who refused to "Go toward the light" so to speak, and has been hanging around making trouble ever since he died. You can find hints of him in Mistborn 3 at the right moments.

"He might yet" implies it is within a Shard's power to access beyond.

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That is interesting info, but doesn't much alter my hypothesis. If Sazed hasn't learned it by now, I doubt Dalinar could do it unaided in a moment of Ascension. Cultivation is hiding from Odium and would not interfere, Honor is dead, and Odium certainly wouldn't help him.

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19 minutes ago, Mahoka said:

If Sazed hasn't learned it by now, I doubt Dalinar could do it unaided in a moment of Ascension.

A few weeks ago I would have said the same thing about creating a perpendicularity and Ascending at the very moment an enemy god is recruiting him using his moment of greatest shame as a fulcrum. Also keep in mind this was a 2009 question.

 

But I'm not even convinced it was all Dalinar. Dalinar might have just made the conditions possible for Evi to reach across to contact him, reaffirming Odium's shock at how she can partake in events when they killed her. But this also demonstrates that it is within a Shard's power and is not evidence of Adonalsium.

Edited by Fifth of Daybreak
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Unity sounds a lot like The One that Evi would talk about. But why would Odium care that much about Evi dying? He was in a panic at this point. This was big enough that he ran for dear life. 

It is possible he was talking about Honor, but it really fits Adonalsium best - killed by a group and a transcendent powerhouse. 

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Evi's people are multi-generational refugees with a pretty strong Cosmere understanding. I have long wondered if the Ire are from Sel, and they carry the memory of that shattering with them, along with some aspects of Dominion and Devotion (unity) 

Edited by teknopathetic
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33 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

But why would Odium care that much about Evi dying?

1: Evi is presumed to have passed beyond having shown no obvious signs of investiture to become a cognitive shadow, so her contacting Dalinar from a place beyond space and time is significant in itself, as the WoB we have show Shards have a difficult to impossible time accessing/communicating with the beyond. 

2: Evi was the biggest obstacle while Dalinar was alive to him being a full creature of Odium. Without Evi's influence, The central theme of the book is how her influence tempered Dalinar's addiction to the Thrill, how her death catalyzed the drive to seek out the Nightwatcher, which eventually allowed him to become the man Evi wanted him to be. Her death at the hands of Dalinar was supposed to be Odium's weapon. To see his Ace in the Hole become Dalinar's redemption is enough to make you care. I would liken it to approaching Megneto with a gun and finding out just how fruitless that labor is. I would care about that. 

3: I very much like the things Paragrin had to say on the matter about Odium not being able to even comprehend her forgiveness. The shock factor of this, along with seeing his vision of the future be proven wrong, surprised him, and Evi was the cause of that. Her forgiveness ruined his prophetic powers and changed the future as he and Renarin saw it. As Harmony puts it:

Quote

I would have thought, before attaining my current station, that a deity could not be surprised. Obviously, this is not true. I can be surprised. I can perhaps even be naive, I think.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 529). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

The disillusionment Odium feels as his plan fails would cause him to resent the person responsible, especially if he killed that person already, a lot.

4: Dalinar has become even stronger because of her forgiveness. The ally of my enemy is worth my consideration. 

46 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

He was in a panic at this point. This was big enough that he ran for dear life. 

Did he run because he feared harm to his body? The scene with Taravangian implies that he is scared of Dalinar now because he agreed to a contest of Champions and he's been robbed of his chosen champion. With the Assassin in White taking the field on the side of Dalinar, I wouldn't put my money on Amaram either. His plan has been crippled and he can now be forced into an unfavorable match that will cost him more time when he's finally put his plans into motion. Better to hope his minions can get in a lucky shot and kill the Bondsmith and void the agreement then be bound by the agreement made when Odium assumed he had the upper hand.

 

Quote

“You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1216). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

50 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

but it really fits Adonalsium best - killed by a group and a transcendent powerhouse.

Would you mind laying out the reasoning behind why you say so? Unity to me sounds like a synonymous intent for Honor. Tanavast is in no way present in the scene in any way that should have surprised Odium, and Odium was already aware of the possibility that Honor's shards could be used in some way against him, and by his conversation with King T it seems likely he knew that Dalinar had the possibility of Ascending. I don't see any evidence of anyone else present in the scene who has died before this. 

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Why do people think Honour is a synonym with Unity? They really aren't. You can be honourable without uniting. Honour is about keeping your values and promises, not keeping groups of people together. 

Unity would be more like a mix of Dominion with Devotion or Honour. Unity would be cohesion, and honour is not specifically cohesion. A Bondmsmith could be unity, but that is not a 1 for 1 with Honour. 

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@teknopathetic Cultivation did not help take out honor.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/97/#e2729

 

That isn't proof that she didn't help kill honour in the end. Cultivation could have aided Honour for millennia, but then changed her tactic as the shard influenced her, and as Honour became mentally unstable.

Her shard's Intent is very complex. I think she would be tempted to harvest/reep/prune honour for the greater good, and I think honour would be tempted to let her. Honour said Odium killed him, but we know from Ambition that one can me mortally wounded and then slowly linger and die - Maybe Cultivation dropped the axe; there is always another secret. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Just now, teknopathetic said:

Her shard's Intent is very complex. I think she would be tempted to harvest/reep/prune honour for the greater good, and I think honour would be tempted to let her. 

I agree it's complex, but if the point were to "harvest" then I think she would have taken up the Shard before it could splinter. 

Wyndel seems to believe that she gave up on humanity after Honor's death. This implies that regardless of the intent, she was still emotionally attached to Tanavast. 

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17 minutes ago, Ookla of Daybreak said:
1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

but it really fits Adonalsium best - killed by a group and a transcendent powerhouse.

Would you mind laying out the reasoning behind why you say so? Unity to me sounds like a synonymous intent for Honor. Tanavast is in no way present in the scene in any way that should have surprised Odium, and Odium was already aware of the possibility that Honor's shards could be used in some way against him, and by his conversation with King T it seems likely he knew that Dalinar had the possibility of Ascending. I don't see any evidence of anyone else present in the scene who has died before this. 

Honor is keeping oaths, but not necessarily unity. Yet Dalinar is also hearing a command to unite them, that is not coming from the StormFather. 

Further, this is someone Rayse/Odium recognizes and is terrified of. I am not aware of Rayse/Odium having that kind of horror of Tanavast/Honor. They were enemies, but not something (to my knowledge) that he was terrified of. 

Adonalsium on the other hand, was killed by 16 people, and was certainly(?) more powerful than the individual shards we see today. 

I think Dalinar peaked into the Beyond or the Spiritual Realm and briefly conversed with Adonalsium. That is what so deeply terrified Rayse/Odium. 

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9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree it's complex, but if the point were to "harvest" then I think she would have taken up the Shard before it could splinter. 

Wyndel seems to believe that she gave up on humanity after Honor's death. This implies that regardless of the intent, she was still emotionally attached to Tanavast. 

She seemed to give up, but still tried to help Dalinar a little bit. Plus, it only helps Cultivation to have Odium think she has given up. How do we explain Lift? Something that the Stormfather deemed impossible and an upfront to Honour's power? How do we explain Super Smart Mr.T, who saw the future well enough to force Odium's hand, despite having no access to fortune? There are clues that Cultivation didn't just roll over and weep. 

Honor also didn't shatter in the usual way. We don't have Seons floating around, or weird power vacuums. Honour left his power sentient in the form of the Stormfather, the Spren, the Honorblades, and possibly the sibling. Honour kept his soul around for humans to use, despite his shattering. And now Dalinar has ascended in some fashion, all without Honour being around to guide. 

We have a WOB saying that Cultivation has learned from the shattering of other Shards; what better way than to see the splintering of honour up-close and personal.

---

Honours death just seems too neat and controlled for me to think there wasn't some intention behind it. 

 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Why do people think Honour is a synonym with Unity? They really aren't. You can be honourable without uniting. Honour is about keeping your values and promises, not keeping groups of people together. 

I specified a synonymous intent. The first time that Syl talks about what kind of spren she is, she says "I bind things Kaladin...I am honorspren. Spirit of oaths. Of promises. And of nobility." I am interpreting her putting forward "I bind things" first as significant towards the true intent of the shard, as we know the intent of a shard can be filtered by the person who is holding it. Unity binds people together just as much as Honor does, and it it very fitting with his current personality, and so matches with him filtering a Shard with the intent of binding things together. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

 

 

10 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Honor is keeping oaths, but not necessarily unity. Yet Dalinar is also hearing a command to unite them, that is not coming from the StormFather. 

Is he hearing a command, or is he telling that to himself? The words are in italics like regular thoughts inside his own head. The one that would make me think most he is conversing with someone else happens before the text that would signify the change that allowed him to contact an outside force. The text changes to resemble a Shard's voice only after Dalinar is in the act of Ascending. I don't see enough definitive evidence, either way, to show it's coming from an external source, and from what I see, I'm leaning towards it all coming from inside. 

Quote

Alone.

Dalinar held a fist to his chest.

So alone.

It hurt to breathe, to think. But something stirred inside his fist. He opened bleeding fingers.

The most … the most important …

Inside his fist, he somehow found a golden sphere. A solitary gloryspren.

The most important step a man can take. It’s not the first one, is it?

It’s the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar. [Unless he's talking to the being through the gloryspren, for me that theory dies here]

Trembling, bleeding, agonized, Dalinar forced air into his lungs and spoke a single ragged sentence. “You cannot have my pain.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1133). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

----

Something stirred inside of Dalinar. A warmth that he had known once before. A warm, calming light. [This is where I would expect a conversation to start, yet, it seems like if it's coming from an outside source, it would start where the internal monologue talks to him by name. I just think he is talking to himself and is starting to Ascend.]

Unite them.

“Journey before destination,” Dalinar said. “It cannot be a journey if it doesn’t have a beginning.”

A thunderclap sounded in his mind. Suddenly, awareness poured back into him. The Stormfather, distant, feeling frightened—but also surprised.

Dalinar? [The Stormfather's voice is diminished here because Dalinar is starting to Ascend. In almost every other instance, the Stormfather is the one capitilized.]

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1135). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

---

Unite them! 

Gloryspren streamed around Dalinar. Thousands of golden spheres, more spren than he’d ever seen in one place. They swirled around him in a column of golden light. Beyond it, Odium stumbled back.

So small, Dalinar thought. Has he always looked that small?  [The 'Dalinar thought' here does give weight to your point, but we also have not at any point gotten any indication it's coming from outside. This is a mantra that has been with Dalinar since book one, in that context, I don't see enough evidence to take it from Dalinar.]

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1136). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

---

UNITE THEM! [This is capitlized at this point because of his Ascension. he is currently a sliver, and his thoughts reflect that in the text.]

Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, plunging it between realms, grabbing hold of the very fabric of existence. The world of minds, the realm of thought.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1136). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

My interpretations added in Bold/parenthesis. 

31 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Further, this is someone Rayse/Odium recognizes and is terrified of.

This doesn't say to me he's terrified. This says to me he can't believe this is happening and is verbally denying what his eyes are telling him. You don't step toward what you are terrified of initially when you recognize it, even if you stumble back later. You run immediately in terror. In my opinion, if you're terrified, you don't take the time to stop and say "this isn't physically possible." 

Quote

“No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1139). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

It takes a moment for him to realize the implication of what happened to understand that he needs to flee, not because he's scared for his person, but because, as King T points out later, he's now bound in a contest of Champions in which he has precisely zero champions. 

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33 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Honours death just seems too neat and controlled for me to think there wasn't some intention behind it.

Be pretty danged honorable to sacrifice yourself for the greater good—playing some (really) long game to take Odium out forever. :-) but, that’s probably a stretch. Fun to consider though. :-)

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2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

That isn't proof that she didn't help kill honour in the end. Cultivation could have aided Honour for millennia, but then changed her tactic as the shard influenced her, and as Honour became mentally unstable.

Her shard's Intent is very complex. I think she would be tempted to harvest/reep/prune honour for the greater good, and I think honour would be tempted to let her. Honour said Odium killed him, but we know from Ambition that one can me mortally wounded and then slowly linger and die - Maybe Cultivation dropped the axe; there is always another secret. 

This theory seems the one most likely to be correct to me. It is also possible that Honor knew he would eventually succumb to Odium and that he plotted his own demise with Cultivation. This seems to be in line with WoB about Cultivation being close to the death of Honor.

She would have learned so much from Honor’s death by observing Odium. This would also (potentially) give her some breathing room from Odium as he may not consider her to be a threat and enable her to subtly undermine Odium (like with Lift, Dalinar, and somehow with Mr. T—I think we are missing something with what his true intentions and plans are).

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3 hours ago, Ookla of Daybreak said:

Is he hearing a command, or is he telling that to himself? The words are in italics like regular thoughts inside his own head. The one that would make me think most he is conversing with someone else happens before the text that would signify the change that allowed him to contact an outside force. The text changes to resemble a Shard's voice only after Dalinar is in the act of Ascending. I don't see enough definitive evidence, either way, to show it's coming from an external source, and from what I see, I'm leaning towards it all coming from inside. 

Hold on. Let's jump books here.

Hero of Ages spoiler:

 
Quote

But not Spook. The only one who didn't fit in.

I named you, Spook. You were my friend.

Isn't that enough?

Spook froze, forcing the others to stop.

(paperback p. 529)

And from Secret History...

 
Quote

"I named you, Spook," Kelsier whispered. "You were my friend. Isn't that enough?"

Spook stopped in place. pulling against the grip of the others.

(Kindle loc. 1953)

This is very definitively coming from an external source, and it's in the same formatting. Just like regular thoughts inside his own head. And the person on the receiving end's only special qualities are savantism and a personal connection with the speaker. The outside force is contacting him. (There's a few more examples right around there, but that one was the first one I found and I'm not typing up anything else.)

The formatting is not evidence against it being an outside voice. It's not conclusive evidence for, either, but outside sources have used the same formatting.

Edited by Paragrin
fixing (or attempting to fix) spoiler tags
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11 minutes ago, Paragrin said:

Hold on. Let's jump books here.

Hero of Ages spoiler:

 

  Hide contents

 

(paperback p. 529)

 

And from Secret History...

 

  Hide contents

 

(Kindle loc. 1953)

 

This is very definitively coming from an external source, and it's in the same formatting. Just like regular thoughts inside his own head. And the person on the receiving end's only special qualities are savantism and a personal connection with the speaker. The outside force is contacting him. (There's a few more examples right around there, but that one was the first one I found and I'm not typing up anything else.)

The formatting is not evidence against it being an outside voice. It's not conclusive evidence for, either, but outside sources have used the same formatting.

 

5
 

Seems convincing, leaning towards rescinding my argument. looking into it further

Edited by Ookla of Daybreak
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Gah. The spoilers weren't supposed to be nested, but I can't figure out how to fix them. Oh well. Pulling the conclusion out for anyone who hasn't read HoA/SH:

Quote

This is very definitively coming from an external source, and it's in the same formatting. Just like regular thoughts inside his own head. And the person on the receiving end's only special qualities are savantism and a personal connection with the speaker. The outside force is contacting him. (There's a few more examples right around there, but that one was the first one I found and I'm not typing up anything else.)

The formatting is not evidence against it being an outside voice. It's not conclusive evidence for, either, but outside sources have used the same formatting.

 

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11 minutes ago, Paragrin said:

Gah. The spoilers weren't supposed to be nested, but I can't figure out how to fix them. Oh well. Pulling the conclusion out for anyone who hasn't read HoA/SH:

 

Yup. this is the solid piece of evidence I've been searching for. I'm on board now. Who picked up Honor? Nohadon?

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Hmm. Nohadon lived and died before the Recreance, and Tanavast died after it. Not impossible (see: Kelsier) but he'd have had to find something to stretch his soul so he could stick around as a Cognitive Shadow. He'd also have to have known it was possible, and have had a reason to. 

That would be a good reason for Honor not having Splintered further since Tanavast's death, if someone had taken it even partially (ibid.) 

(Not to reopen the debate, but my two cents on the Splintering thing: the impression I got from the WoB's was that, no matter how many Splinters the Shard creates, as long as the Vessel is alive, they're a unifying force, something like a hive mind, and the Shard is "whole". Note that Brandon specifically said that Endowment is not considered Splintered, despite routinely creating large numbers of Splinters (although they may rejoin with her-- but that's another topic).  Once the Vessel dies, that guiding force is gone and the Splinters all fly apart like the bee ships in Star Trek Beyond. Some of the things the Stormfather says support this too - he changed, or was changed, when Tanavast died. It may be that maintaining this guidance requires the Vessel to retain a certain amount or percentage of the total Investiture. I could be completely off base, but I don't think anybody put forward this interpretation.)

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On 11/24/2017 at 7:45 PM, DocHoliday said:

I'm here to rock the Evi boat a bit.

Odium to Mr. T: Dalinar has Ascended. 

With that in mind: We is Odium and maybe one other. Could be a royal usage of "we" but I find that unlikely from his speech patterns. 

"You" is Honor. Not Tanavast, but the Shard Honor. Yes I'm aware of the Splintering, but as soon as Dalinar pulled the granddaddy of Last Claps, Odium left the field because "Dalinar can now challenge You (Odium) to a fight." And the God FLED.

 

I’m gonna agree with this... I think the incident with Odium and Dalinar is getting way over analyzed. The immediate context of the chapter in question and overwhelming impression the text gives is that Dalinar is uniting the gloryspren and reknitting Honor. I don’t think Brandon would hide a micro-analytical type of theory for us in the climactic sentence of a 1,300 page book. The “slap you in the face” impression of honor reign restored is Odium fleeing the battle. Confirmed just afterwards when we find out that honor’s remnants+stormfather soul+Dalinar’s will=whatever we now have.

Also there’s Taln’s one and only moment of utter lucidity: while Dalinar is ascending. and his lucidity flees after Dalinar’s “ascension”. Haven’t seen anyone connect that dot yet unless I missed it somewhere.

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33 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

I’m gonna agree with this... I think the incident with Odium and Dalinar is getting way over analyzed. The immediate context of the chapter in question and overwhelming impression the text gives is that Dalinar is uniting the gloryspren and reknitting Honor. I don’t think Brandon would hide a micro-analytical type of theory for us in the climactic sentence of a 1,300 page book. The “slap you in the face” impression of honor reign restored is Odium fleeing the battle. Confirmed just afterwards when we find out that honor’s remnants+stormfather soul+Dalinar’s will=whatever we now have.

Also there’s Taln’s one and only moment of utter lucidity: while Dalinar is ascending. and his lucidity flees after Dalinar’s “ascension”. Haven’t seen anyone connect that dot yet unless I missed it somewhere.

To answer the bolded: If it was any other author, I'd agree with you. But he literally put the ending of the three-book Mistborn original trilogy in the first page of the series. This would not be even close to the first time he has hidden something as major as that.

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