The One Who Connects Posted November 24, 2017 Report Share Posted November 24, 2017 1 minute ago, Zape said: i am not talking about a blunt weapon i am talking about a sword i simply said that a sword would shred the silk because of its weight as opposed to a knife And as has been stated, that's not how it works. More Impact Force(which you'd get from more weight) makes you more likely to break something solid. Flexible objects(like silk) will bend with the object they are being hit with, regardless of it's weight. That's why I used a bat and a sword in my example, to highlight the difference that actually mattered: Shredding something requires a sharp edge, plain and simple. If doesn't matter if you have a silk shirt, a strip of paper floating in the wind, or rope laying on the ground. Unless the object you are hitting them with has a cutting edge, they will simply bend around it, regardless of the weight they are struck with. Sword, knife, tomahawk, the weight of the weapon is irrelevant. if it isn't sharp enough, it doesn't "rip," "shred," or "tear" the target. 21 minutes ago, Zape said: except that Mistborn are the only ones shown to use knifes and everyone else uses sword dueling canes or battle staffs also again stone Wooden Warstaffs. Wooden Dueling Canes. Obsidian Axes. Obsidian/Glass Knives. My point about tech largely moving away from metal holds up(The Koloss being an exception). I don't know why people have metal swords, come to think of it. It's illogical. The only reason Elend managed to keep his sword in the battle against Marsh is because "something" prevented Marsh from pushing it away. Why is stone relevant? Hasn't stone weaponry been discussed well enough already? 25 minutes ago, Zape said: no it isn't you could stab a man in a closed helmet through the eye openings but that's quite a bit harder then just stabbing him in the face or the neck A Mistborn could just as easily stab in the open spaces by your armpits, your neck, or any of a dozen other open spaces in conventional armor. Open spaces covered by silk armor made into the shape of conventional clothing. That was my point. You'd be protecting your head anyway(because it's important), so only having to focus on protecting your head would be better than having to defend myriad number of places at once, in my opinion. 1 hour ago, Zape said: ehm no it says he felt like he burned metals even tho he ran out only when marsh appeared I read the scene before making my prior post. He had been fighting Koloss for hours, and his pewter ran out after starting his fight with Marsh. His steel hadn't run out yet either. Quote The sun crested the horizon in the east. It started to grow hotter. They had been fighting for hours, yet the army of Koloss still seemed endless. Elend slew another Koloss, but his motions were beginning to feel sluggish. Atium enhanced his mind, but it did not boost the body, and he'd started to rely on his pewter to keep him going. [...] Elend screamed, swinging his sword about him, taking down three Koloss in a maneuver that never should have worked. He flared steel and Pushed the rest away from him. He fought on, alone, his clothing long since stained from white to red. Something moved behind him, and he spun, raising his blade, letting the atium lead him. The creature behind him was no Koloss. It stood in a black robe, one eye socket empty and bleeding, the other bearing a spike that had been crushed back into its skull. Marsh. [....] Marsh struck with an obsidian axe. The blade fell, and Elend leaped away, but the dodge left him off balance. Elend tried to recover, but his metals were running low—not just his atium, but his basic metals. Iron, steel, pewter. He hadn't been paying attention to them since he had Atium, but he'd been fighting for so long now. An attack from the Inquisitor forced Elend to flare pewter to get away. The Inquisitor crawled over the fallen bodies of Koloss, scrambling towards Elend, his single spikehead reflecting the too-bright light of the sun overhead.Elend's pewter ran out. [..]Vin will come, he thought. She'll save us. Faith. It was a strange thing to feel at that moment. Marsh swung.Pewter and iron suddenly flared to life within Elend. He didn't have time to think about the oddity; he simply reacted, Pulling on his sword, which lay stuck into the ground a distance away. [..] A powerful peace swelled in Elend. His Allomancy flared bright, though he knew the metals inside of him should have burned away. He still had his metals during the start of his fight with Marsh, and Vin starts fueling him after his pewter runs out. He had enough metals on him to fight for hours(replenishing his Atium when he ran low). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 18 hours ago, Zape said: she only started fueling him when marsh showed up She started fuelling him the second he needed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: And as has been stated, that's not how it works. More Impact Force(which you'd get from more weight) makes you more likely to break something solid. Flexible objects(like silk) will bend with the object they are being hit with, regardless of it's weight. That's why I used a bat and a sword in my example, to highlight the difference that actually mattered: Shredding something requires a sharp edge, plain and simple. If doesn't matter if you have a silk shirt, a strip of paper floating in the wind, or rope laying on the ground. Unless the object you are hitting them with has a cutting edge, they will simply bend around it, regardless of the weight they are struck with. Sword, knife, tomahawk, the weight of the weapon is irrelevant. if it isn't sharp enough, it doesn't "rip," "shred," or "tear" the target. ok fair enough in that case use obsidian it is sharper then steel 9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Wooden Warstaffs. Wooden Dueling Canes. Obsidian Axes. Obsidian/Glass Knives. My point about tech largely moving away from metal holds up(The Koloss being an exception). I don't know why people have metal swords, come to think of it. It's illogical. The only reason Elend managed to keep his sword in the battle against Marsh is because "something" prevented Marsh from pushing it away. Why is stone relevant? Hasn't stone weaponry been discussed well enough already? only swords and spears are still by far the most popular weapon's take pre lord ruler death luthadel it had lets say about 12,000 soldiers in it total (combining the city guard and the private gaurd of the great houses) at the same time it had maybe about 30 people who can affect steel that means that for the common guard the chances of running into someone who can use his steel against him is four hundred to one it simply docent make statistical sense to use weaker weapon's because of such a absurdly low chance 9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: A Mistborn could just as easily stab in the open spaces by your armpits, your neck, or any of a dozen other open spaces in conventional armor. Open spaces covered by silk armor made into the shape of conventional clothing. That was my point. You'd be protecting your head anyway(because it's important), so only having to focus on protecting your head would be better than having to defend myriad number of places at once, in my opinion. ok and what if the mistborn grabs a battle staff or a dueling cane ? i am not saying dont use silk what i am saying is the smartest thing whould be to use silk as a stand-in for chain mail and wear armor on top 9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: He still had his metals during the start of his fight with Marsh, and Vin starts fueling him after his pewter runs out. He had enough metals on him to fight for hours(replenishing his Atium when he ran low). you dont know that all that is written is he started relying on pewter when he was getting tired we dont actually know how much steel/iron he used in the fight for all we know he was almost out by the start of the battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Zape said: you dont know that all that is written is he started relying on pewter when he was getting tired we dont actually know how much steel/iron he used in the fight for all we know he was almost out by the start of the battle They burn Pewter almost every moment of the day. Do you really need an explicit mention to Elend using Pewter in a crazy battle ? Anyway the simple fact he runned out of them is an implicit proof as they burn really slow and would last hours (a bit less for Elend because it's very powerful in allomancy) Edited November 25, 2017 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 What reason whould aland have to burn pewter while he still had hours worth of atium ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickbronze Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 22 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: As mentioned by Kingsdaughter, the common people weren't exactly the type to carry swords. This holds for most any period of history, and doubly so on Scadrial, where the existence of Metalborn sparked tech progress away from metal weaponry out of necessity. Swords that aren't metal aren't the most effective things, and with the advent of the dueling cane, the sword may as well fade into obscurity. Knives are where it's at, and that's not likely to change. What you are saying is that you can cut through something just as easily with a lead baseball bat as you can with a katana. That's not how shredding/cutting works. If you have a long strip of paper held taught between two points, then the impact of the bat will probably rip it, while the katana will cut it. However, if you are swinging at a strip of paper floating in the wind, the katana blade might still cut it, but the bat will not. The paper will fold around the bat and be fine. Fabric will do the same, which is why sharpness matters. Shirts tear when they get caught on something, and a blunt weapon isn't gonna do that. Watch people fight sometime, grabbing/pulling at clothing will rip them, while punches wont. Blunt weaponry is like those punches. Lastly, the impact will not "pull the silk off." Anything fashioned into armor would be worn in such a way that it can't just be ripped off(straps, ties, etc..), and in the case of silk armor, it can be fashioned into a shirt or vest, with sleeves and everything. You aren't ripping a shirt off someone by hitting it with a baseball bat or a sword or anything. With exception to maybe two very specific circumstances, it's not physically possible. Bringing it back to my baseball bat vs katana bit from earlier: The baseball bat could dent a metal chestpiece(and possibly bend/crack a wooden one, depending on quality), while a silk one will conform to the bat and come out intact. Yes, silk armor does not absorb the impact as well as solid armor, but it has less risk of being badly hindered by a battle staff or dueling cane. The difference between types of armor will always be a game of tradeoffs. Additionally, Mistborn have pewter to help with the pain(somewhat) Regarding aiming for the head, any solid armor will have more open spots a Mistborn could shove a knife into, because solid armor has to allow space for movement. A helmet doesn't prevent a Mistborn from aiming for those chinks, so the argument is moot. As previously stated, more tradeoffs. Personally, the armor with less weak spots seems like the better option to me. Not to intentionally use this excuse for the third time, but the tech progression of the Final Empire is a little lopsided. For all we know, they might not be that good at ceramics. Another possible explanation is that the people who craft and sell glass knives to Mistborn are also in the glass vial business. More products, more profit. More specifically, she started fueling him when his pewter ran out, and his other metals as they began to run out later. So whatever amount of vials he was carrying on him were enough for quite a bit of fighting against the Koloss until after Marsh showed up. How does this affect your outlook on how much a Mistborn really needs to carry on them? Actually, good metal armor would easily deflect a baseball bat. Apart from that, your post is pretty logically sound. In addition, are you guys talking about cloth armor? That's already a thing, called a gambeson. They were actually pretty good, and while super sharp swords would cut them relatively well, very few people carry incredibly sharp swords. Edited November 25, 2017 by Crimson Not Blood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 On 11/25/2017 at 3:06 PM, Zape said: What reason whould aland have to burn pewter while he still had hours worth of atium ? Sheer strength to block a blow from Marsh? Marsh was super-powered remember, with Feruchemical speed, and Elend with Atium couldn't actually manage to defeat him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) your confusing the timeline he started burning pewter at the later stages of the fight because he was getting tired what i meant in that quote is that he had no reason to burn pewter while he still had a lot of atium left Edited November 28, 2017 by Zape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent34 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Zape said: your confusing the timeline he started burning pewter at the later stages of the fight because he was getting tired what i meant in that quote is that he had no reason to burn pewter while he still had a lot of atium left Why would atium make pewter pointless? Just because you can see the future doesn't mean your body can't use a boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 Because atium turns you into a wmd there is no reason to use pewter when you can see the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder_93 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 It still might be necessary. Remember, he was fighting Kolosses. It is just an assumption, but I could imagine killing a Koloss will need some strengh. His skin and / or flesh is thicker then that of a normal human. Plus they're taller, so you might need to jump up high to quickly kill one, and then hit / slash with an already unhuman strengh. It doesn't matter if you can see the future, in the end, you still need to be able to do what you want to do. If he sees his gonna be hit by one or multiple things, and even with seeing the future is to slow to dodge it (Zane proved this is possible) Pewter might give him the strengh/speed to dodge in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent34 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Zape said: Because atium turns you into a wmd there is no reason to use pewter when you can see the future Seeing the future does nothing unless you have what it takes to react to it and prepare for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 He only mentions he is burning atium at the start of the battle 15 minutes ago, Agent34 said: Seeing the future does nothing unless you have what it takes to react to it and prepare for it. except they specifically mention how atium allows your brain to process information faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder_93 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 Yes, to process information faster in your brain, but i dont think that's what Agent means. If you can think faster, this does not mean you can move automatically faster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent34 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Thunder_93 said: Yes, to process information faster in your brain, but i dont think that's what Agent means. If you can think faster, this does not mean you can move automatically faster. This is indeed what I meant. Edited November 28, 2017 by Agent34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 On 11/25/2017 at 11:24 AM, Ookla the Noble said: Actually, good metal armor would easily deflect a baseball bat. Apart from that, your post is pretty logically sound. I'd have said a lead pipe, but figured a solid bat would be heavier than a hollow pipe, and thus better for my example. You are right that properly made armor is good at deflecting, but I was talking about(realized my prior post didn't imply it that well, let me reword this). Since I used a baseball bat as my example weapon, I was imagining that it'd be swung like a baseball bat would(a side-swing, somewhat). A blow like that would hit horizontally across the chest or stomach, rather than be a glancing blow, so it wouldn't deflect as much, if at all. That's why I posited it denting the metal. On 11/25/2017 at 11:24 AM, Ookla the Noble said: In addition, are you guys talking about cloth armor? That's already a thing, called a gambeson. They were actually pretty good, and while super sharp swords would cut them relatively well, very few people carry incredibly sharp swords. We were actually talking about Mistcloaks. Start rereading the conversation from this post, and it'll make more sense. On 11/25/2017 at 1:36 AM, Zape said: that means that for the common guard the chances of running into someone who can use his steel against him is four hundred to one it simply docent make statistical sense to use weaker weapon's because of such a absurdly low chance Your logic is fairly sound, but the common guard aren't gonna be called upon to fight Mistings/Mistborn anyway. The people who are actually gonna do that use alternative weaponry/armor because it's the right choice, which is why I'm unsure why some of the Nobility still have swords. On 11/25/2017 at 1:36 AM, Zape said: the smartest thing would be to use silk as a stand-in for chain mail and wear armor on top Armor weighs you down more, which messes with Steel/Iron as a form of movement. It'd take relearning your margins of error for flight paths and acceleration, which is gonna take a good bit of time and effort, not to mention being dangerous overall. If you get used to one setup, habits from it will bleed through when you are trying to use the other one. This means that you'll be at risk of not slowing down fast enough when you have armor(because you're used to being light) or at risk of speeding up too fast when you are without armor(because you are used to being heavy). Additionally, the more protective the armor is, the more it hinders movement(usually). Being hindered is a bad thing as an assassin, and a bad thing when facing an assassin. On 11/25/2017 at 9:06 AM, Zape said: What reason whould aland have to burn pewter while he still had hours worth of atium ? what i meant in that quote is that he had no reason to burn pewter while he still had a lot of atium left Because atium turns you into a wmd there is no reason to use pewter when you can see the future except they specifically mention how atium allows your brain to process information faster Had you actually read the segment of the book that I put in my prior post, you would not be saying any of that. The narration directly contradicts you: "Elend slew another Koloss, but his motions were beginning to feel sluggish. Atium enhanced his mind, but it did not boost the body, and he'd started to rely on his pewter to keep him going." It's pretty clearcut. Atium allows you to perform things at the peak of your capacity, but if you are weakened/tired/wounded, then the "peak" of your capacity is lower. If I don't physically have the muscular strength to dodge something, the Atium is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickbronze Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 Oh I always read it that Mistcloaks weren't meant to be armor. They're usually depicted as a bunch of strips sown together at one end to form a loop that goes around the neck, and we know that they flap a lot. If you were designing cloth armor, you would probably make it a vest or something similar. Ya'know, so that it actually covers your vital organs. As for the baseball bat thing, I find it more likely that the person would be thrown back rather then their armor denting, but that depends on several factors such as the strength of both individuals, the quality of the armor, and the exact weight of the bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Ookla the Noble said: As for the baseball bat thing, I find it more likely that the person would be thrown back rather then their armor denting, but that depends on several factors such as the strength of both individuals, the quality of the armor, and the exact weight of the bat. I might be thinking too thin with the armor, or overestimating how much force people can resist without stumbling back(oh.. I'm still thinking of Mistborn, who would have Pewter. That's what's happening) 2 hours ago, Ookla the Noble said: I always read it that Mistcloaks weren't meant to be armor. They're usually depicted as a bunch of strips sown together at one end to form a loop that goes around the neck, and we know that they flap a lot. If you were designing cloth armor, you would probably make it a vest or something similar. Ya'know, so that it actually covers your vital organs. Maybe I'm misinterpreting from our limited descriptions of them, but I felt that they covered a bit more of the body before being slit into tassels. You make a valid point about the vest, which makes me curious. If they weren't important like armor, why did they keep them around: Quote By Mistborn Era 2, the mistcloak has evolved into a mistcoat. Waxillium Ladrian's, in particular, is a long, enveloping garment like a duster with a thick collar and cuffed sleeves, ankle-length and divided into strips from just above the waist.[4] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickbronze Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) I always assumed it was symbol of their Mistborn-ness, but I now realize that might not actually be such a great thing. I mean, it might scare off potential attackers, but if you're going to rob someone or something like that, and they see you in a Mistcloak, they'll automatically know that a Mistborn is attacking. However, I believe it mentions in the books that mistcloak tassels look a bit like the mists, so perhaps they provide some sort of camouflage at night. Edited November 29, 2017 by Ookla the Noble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 On 28/11/2017 at 2:48 PM, Zape said: He only mentions he is burning atium at the start of the battle except they specifically mention how atium allows your brain to process information faster Assuming the Atium gives you a Perfect view of the next seconds and the best action to take. Be' stronger and Faster means you could use those nexts second to influence a wider area and in a Better way. If in those 2 seconds you could move farther (both thanks to Pewter or for Steel/Iron) your options rise and this allows you (and the Atium) to pick something you could not performe usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 he had alot of atium tho there was no reason to maximize killing potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickbronze Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 1 minute ago, Zape said: he had alot of atium tho there was no reason to maximize killing potential When in battle, it is always necessary to maximize killing potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 Not when there is absolutely no danger involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 As a silent observer of this threat until now, I'm starting to wonder if you aren't just being deliberately contrary right now. You're ignoring that the text itself says that Elend was using pewter to enhance his body in order to keep going. Obviously it has a benefit even when you still have atium to burn, or he wouldn't have been doing it It's not really hard to see why either; even if atium lets you see the future it doesn't mean you're always going to be in no danger while burning it. Imagine a situation where there are multiple koloss attacking you, or your movements are hindered by the terrain, or both at once. You can't completely dodge them no matter what you do. But hey, if you have pewter to enhance your strength and your reflexes above their normal level, maybe you can. Or even if you can't completely avoid harm the pewter helps you shrug off an injury that might have disabled or killed you. And even if you're in a completely open environment with only one opponent to worry about, having pewter and atium means that you can kill or disable your opponent faster. Now factor in a pitched battle where you want to reduce the number of opponents as quickly as you can and you'll see why it's useful. Just because atium on its own is extremely powerful doesn't mean that it's not better when used in combination with pewter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zape Posted November 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 (edited) Funny how you say i am ignoring the text when you yourself dont remember it he only started burning pewter when he was getting tired infact i indulged the idea of him burning metal even tho he only mentioned starting to burn pewter after almost a day of fighting Edited November 29, 2017 by Zape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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