why do people only ever carry a few bottles of metals with them

[Zape]

but about silk it whould be good for a extra layer of protection but its not that useful against bigger weapons the armor idea still applies silk is also quite expensive 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Depends where actually. Did you not look up the links I sent? Silk was used as armor in ancient Asia. A bullet will shatter wood, not silk. 

The point was that an easy source of readily available, comfortable armor, would make it unlikely people would feel the need to create something else. Especially since larger weapons are uncommon outside of the guard. Household guards typically use swords or staffs and silk is good protection against that.

Would you mind reading what I wrote before arguing? Spider silk is stronger than steel. It is actually perfectly good against larger weapons, if we could get it in large enough amounts. The US army is trying to develope this:http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2017/08/us-army-boosts-spending-genetically-engineered-spider-silk-possible-use-body-armor-soldier-underwear/139923/ It is unlikely TFE has silk worms as they have a very specific habitat.

Silk is actually better against bullets and blunt weapons, as it not only stops the projectile, but it diffuses the force of it preventing concussive damage. The vests used in Taiwan are excellent; but they are expensive to produce here.

[Zape]

silk is good at stooping impact you can still cut through it also like i said its very expensive especially in medieval times  

[Kingsdaughter613]

Depends where, as I have already written. Silk has been farmed for at least 4000! years, and the techniques haven’t really changed much. Scadrial is NOT a perfect Earth analogue. Silk was expensive in Europe; not so much in the Far East.

And silk is actually rather hard to cut, especially if worn in tightly woven, loose layers. As I have explained several times already.

Please do NOT respond until you have actually READ my posts, read the links, and have a reasonable, researched response. Because your insistance on reiterating arguments that have been previously refuted is exceedingly insulting. I’ve been patient, because English is not your first language, but I am tired of repeating myself to someone who lacks the courtesy to even READ my responses. 

[Zape]

please do not patronize me im a non native speaker not dyslexic

second of all i have read your articles and i have ignored them sense they have nothing to do with the topic at hand all the articles talk about stooping bullets as in object that get their impact strength from the speed they move at even coins that are the closest to bullets you have in the first three books rely on weight rather then speed and yes one of the articles mentions knifes however i am quite certain the reason a knife cannot cut it is purely due to its low weight a sword will not have the same problem it will either shred the silk or pull it off  lastly like i already mentioned silk is really expensive and hard to produce which is clearly demonstrated by how much R&D the us army and thailand had to invest in it it is hard to make even in the east let alone in scadrial seeing how its quite clearly more similar to western europe rather then the east 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Zape

[Kingsdaughter613]

But knives are more common than swords, and what most armor is a protection against. And you’re wrong; it’s not the length of the blade, it’s the sharpness. There is little difference. That’s why silk has been used in Asian armor for centuries.

Coins, like bullets, rely on force not mass. ALL projectile weapons do. Coins are very light but flung with enough force and they can kill. Boxings aren’t that big. This is basic physics.

But this also ignores all the major points I’ve made. Which is that loose, tightly woven layers of silk will catch a knife - or sword, or any edged weapon. It will NOT prevent the force of the blow from causing injury. 

Taught layers of silk will project against projectiles, but will be easier to cut (not super easy; this is SPIDER not SILKWORM silk.) 

But most importantly: if you have good armor, and don’t fight directly that often anyway, you have no need to come up with something more complicated. 

I’m sorry if I sounded patronizing; that is how I talk. And if you keep repeating arguments I’ve answered then, yes, I will feel that you are not reading my posts. I’ve done some research on my responses, and typed lengthy arguments explaining my points. I simply expect the same courtesy.

[Zape]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But knives are more common than swords, and what most armor is a protection against

in modern times not in a medieval like setting

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And you’re wrong; it’s not the length of the blade, it’s the sharpness. There is little difference. That’s why silk has been used in Asian armor for centuries.

 i was talking about weight not sharpness a heavy sword whould shred the silk or pull it off and it will not stop the impact force

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Coins, like bullets, rely on force not mass. ALL projectile weapons do. Coins are very light but flung with enough force and they can kill. Boxings aren’t that big. This is basic physics.

the difference is how they get that force bullets get it from traveling extremely fast the faster you move the more impact force you have coins one the other hand rely on the weight of the person launching them (unless i am misunderstanding something which in that case please explain) thus they have a bigger concussive force 

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But this also ignores all the major points I’ve made. Which is that loose, tightly woven layers of silk will catch a knife - or sword, or any edged weapon. It will NOT prevent the force of the blow from causing injury. 

Taught layers of silk will project against projectiles, but will be easier to cut (not super easy; this is SPIDER not SILKWORM silk.) 

But most importantly: if you have good armor, and don’t fight directly that often anyway, you have no need to come up with something more complicated. 

the thing is i am pretty certain the idea of my armor whould be cheaper then yours remember silk is very expensive to make it whould also protect against impact force as well alteast somewhat 

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’m sorry if I sounded patronizing; that is how I talk. And if you keep repeating arguments I’ve answered then, yes, I will feel that you are not reading my posts. I’ve done some research on my responses, and typed lengthy arguments explaining my points. I simply expect the same courtesy.

its fine however the reason i haven't read your articles is simple because any silk armor in luthadel whould be to expensive and hard to make

[Kingsdaughter613]

Again. Silk was actually used as armor in Asia. It is not cheap to manufacture, but it is far more affordable there. Luthadel may have a French based dialect but it is not France, anymore than the Roughs are the Old West. And they use slave labor to create it, which brings the price down further. Just because it is expensive in the West does not mean it is expensive everywhere.

Bullets have considerably MORE concussive Force than coins or swords. Silk vests are better at preventing damage from concussive force than Kevlar! It is DEFINITELY better than wood and stone.

That’s inaccurate again. Knives were far more common than swords in medieval times. You were far more likely to be gutted - and even more likely to be beaten to death - than to be killed with a sword. Only a few had swords.

And there is a REASON for the legend of a blade so sharp it could cut falling silk. Thick strands of spide silk are like steel. More weight is NOT going to help you cut it! You need an extremely fine edge, much finer than most blades would have. Or can keep.

The Aztecs actually used cotton armor and it was effective against obsidian blades. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichcahuipilli Since cotton is from a plant, and I doubt it survived, I think silk is the fabric used. Note however that the Ichcahipilli is effective against basically all weapons in TFE, with the possible exception of metal flung with enough force.

I am putting the next bit in parenthesis  as I am not certain I’m correct. I’m not very good at math related things. History is another story.

( It’s mass not weight, though weight can determine mass. Force = Mass x Acceleration, Newton’s second law. http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-3/Newton-s-Second-Law Can someone who is better at physics than me check to make sure this correct? Math is  not my strong point. 

I think there are two things involved here. The mass of the allomancer standing still and the amount of investiture (which does not exist in our universe) he can bring to bear determines the force he can use to move the coin, which determines the coin’s Acceleration. Or basically: F = M x I (mass of allomancer x Investiture) followed by A = F/M. (M being the mass of the coin, not the allomancer.) Then the force the coin has is determined by the F= M x A.https://m.wikihow.com/Calculate-Force I really need someone to make sure this accurate. 

(To someone who knows physics: if the allomancer is moving is the equation F= M    x A x I? Or is the A calculated as part of M?)

Bullets, coins, arrows, slings, and all other projectile weaponry work under the same principle. It’s not the ‘weight’; it is the force of impact. If the force is strong enough the item will penetrate the target. Even if it doesn’t it can still cause damage. That’s how blunt weaponry works.)

In TFE most people don’t fight wars. Guardsmen have swords, but they are much more controlled than medieval armies. In Luthadel, and other large cities, the danger is from assassins.

Silk is also silent and does not hinder movement, which is important if you are stopping an assassin. It’s also discreet. All of which suit the nobility of Luthadel.

Silk armor is actually easy to make. You just make padded clothing. Or you wear several loose shirts one over the other. That... isn’t really any more difficult than making any piece of silk clothing...

And you keep failing to address my biggest point, which is that if you have something good, you look for ways to make it better. You don’t look for more complicated ways of getting a lesser result.

Occam’s razor says they already have silk, as it is the only known material that could have the effect mistcloaks are said to have. It’s already in use and has shown itself to be viable historically. So why not silk armor?

[Zape]

the huge problem with silk that armor helps to prevent is concussive force silk will maybe stop a blade but it will be useless against a battle staff and it will not prevent a mistborn from aiming for the head unlike a helmet armor protects the body silk existed in china and yet so did armor because it was better protected against all weapons not to mention massively cheaper  

Edited November 22, 2017 by Zape

[Podman]

@Kingsdaughter613 Probably none of my business, but from what I’ve seen in this thread, I would say give up. It’s not worth the effort to keep arguing this, it’s going nowhere. 

Spoiler

For the record, I agree with you 100%.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by podman36

[Zape]

tbh he is probably right, lets just agree that silk whould be used by nobles and mistborn (aka people who could afford it), and the guards and hazekillers whould use armor since they have no need for subtlety and require greater protection  

Edited November 22, 2017 by Zape

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

Jesus, dude. Use punctuation if you want people to understand what you're saying. I'm no grammar Nazi, but come on, your posts are borderline-illiterate. Is English not your first language? 

[Zape]

third infact, alto im sorry if its hard to read il use more punctuation

tbh its not really a english thing i just dont tend to punctuate things in general

Edited November 22, 2017 by Zape

[Quickbronze]

Because metals actually burn pretty slowly and the less you have, the quicker you can drop them.

[Zape]

drop them ?

[Thunder_93]

I don't know what was all going on with that silk-discussion, but let's just ignore that for a moment.

But to the starting subject:

Of course, it would be better if a Mistborn had way more metals with him. It would be best to have a ton of each with you, but obviously you can't carry around that much.
As a Mistborn isn't a "tank-warrior" like, for example, a full shardbearer, but is more like...  a ninja, or an assassin, the focus is more on stealth and agility. Remember, Vin and Kelsier always had some spare vials with them, but I think just as many so they were not slowed down, or otherwhise blocked in movement by them. Because surely we agree, that having 50 glasvials filled with metal in your pockets would slow you down.

Plus, what others mentioned, they don't run out of metals all the time. It happens when they are in a situation, when they were already fighting for a long time, and there resources started to go down.

So, what I'm trying to say: I think the amount of vials they had on them, is just as many so they did not get a handicap of all the vials on them

[Zape]

50 is too much but they usually carry less then 5

and i mean if the books are anything to go by the missions devolving into open combat isnt that uncommon 

also whats this point thing is it just based upon how many posts you made ?

Edited November 23, 2017 by Zape

[Thunder_93]

Of course, 50 is an exaggeration. But I could imagine, to cary to many on you isn't good for fighting. You would even have to store them somewhere, and you can't just take 3 in one pocket, as glas has that weird tendency to break...

I'm not sure what you mean with this point thing, do you mean that to your left, under your name (at you it actuallys says spearman, and 38) if so, yes that is just how many posts you've made

[Zape]

Thats also something i dont understand why glass and not say ceramics ? and even with glass i think 3 is still too little 

Oh and yes i was referring to the spearman thing thanks

[Quickbronze]

Mistborn have to be able to discard all their metals in a heartbeat in case they run into a Coinshot or another Mistborn

[Zape]

that might be the first argument that makes sense

[IndigoAjah]

On 11/19/2017 at 6:18 PM, Zape said:

aland docent burn duraluminum in the battle at the kandra caves 

Elend had infinite metals because Vin was fuelling them!

[Zape]

she only started fueling him when marsh showed up

[The One Who Connects]

On 11/21/2017 at 11:52 PM, Zape said:

in modern times not in a medieval like setting

As mentioned by Kingsdaughter, the common people weren't exactly the type to carry swords. This holds for most any period of history, and doubly so on Scadrial, where the existence of Metalborn sparked tech progress away from metal weaponry out of necessity. Swords that aren't metal aren't the most effective things, and with the advent of the dueling cane, the sword may as well fade into obscurity. Knives are where it's at, and that's not likely to change.

On 11/21/2017 at 11:52 PM, Zape said:

 i was talking about weight not sharpness a heavy sword would shred the silk or pull it off and it will not stop the impact force

What you are saying is that you can cut through something just as easily with a lead baseball bat as you can with a katana. That's not how shredding/cutting works.

If you have a long strip of paper held taught between two points, then the impact of the bat will probably rip it, while the katana will cut it.
However, if you are swinging at a strip of paper floating in the wind, the katana blade might still cut it, but the bat will not. The paper will fold around the bat and be fine. Fabric will do the same, which is why sharpness matters. Shirts tear when they get caught on something, and a blunt weapon isn't gonna do that. Watch people fight sometime, grabbing/pulling at clothing will rip them, while punches wont. Blunt weaponry is like those punches.

Lastly, the impact will not "pull the silk off." Anything fashioned into armor would be worn in such a way that it can't just be ripped off(straps, ties, etc..), and in the case of silk armor, it can be fashioned into a shirt or vest, with sleeves and everything. You aren't ripping a shirt off someone by hitting it with a baseball bat or a sword or anything. With exception to maybe two very specific circumstances, it's not physically possible.

On 11/22/2017 at 10:23 AM, Zape said:

silk will maybe stop a blade but it will be useless against a battle staff and it will not prevent a mistborn from aiming for the head unlike a helmet

Bringing it back to my baseball bat vs katana bit from earlier: The baseball bat could dent a metal chestpiece(and possibly bend/crack a wooden one, depending on quality), while a silk one will conform to the bat and come out intact. Yes, silk armor does not absorb the impact as well as solid armor, but it has less risk of being badly hindered by a battle staff or dueling cane. The difference between types of armor will always be a game of tradeoffs. Additionally, Mistborn have pewter to help with the pain(somewhat)

Regarding aiming for the head, any solid armor will have more open spots a Mistborn could shove a knife into, because solid armor has to allow space for movement. A helmet doesn't prevent a Mistborn from aiming for those chinks, so the argument is moot. As previously stated, more tradeoffs. Personally, the armor with less weak spots seems like the better option to me.

On 11/23/2017 at 2:10 AM, Zape said:

That's also something I don't understand why glass and not say ceramics ?

Not to intentionally use this excuse for the third time, but the tech progression of the Final Empire is a little lopsided. For all we know, they might not be that good at ceramics.

Another possible explanation is that the people who craft and sell glass knives to Mistborn are also in the glass vial business. More products, more profit.

13 hours ago, Zape said:

she only started fueling him when marsh showed up

More specifically, she started fueling him when his pewter ran out, and his other metals as they began to run out later. So whatever amount of vials he was carrying on him were enough for quite a bit of fighting against the Koloss until after Marsh showed up. How does this affect your outlook on how much a Mistborn really needs to carry on them?

[Zape]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

What you are saying is that you can cut through something just as easily with a lead baseball bat as you can with a katana. That's not how shredding/cutting works.

If you have a long strip of paper held taught between two points, then the impact of the bat will probably rip it, while the katana will cut it.
However, if you are swinging at a strip of paper floating in the wind, the katana blade might still cut it, but the bat will not. The paper will fold around the bat and be fine. Fabric will do the same, which is why sharpness matters. Shirts tear when they get caught on something, and a blunt weapon isn't gonna do that. Watch people fight sometime, grabbing/pulling at clothing will rip them, while punches wont. Blunt weaponry is like those punches.

Lastly, the impact will not "pull the silk off." Anything fashioned into armor would be worn in such a way that it can't just be ripped off(straps, ties, etc..), and in the case of silk armor, it can be fashioned into a shirt or vest, with sleeves and everything. You aren't ripping a shirt off someone by hitting it with a baseball bat or a sword or anything. With exception to maybe two very specific circumstances, it's not physically possible.

Bringing it back to my baseball bat vs katana bit from earlier: The baseball bat could dent a metal chestpiece(and possibly bend/crack a wooden one, depending on quality), while a silk one will conform to the bat and come out intact. Yes, silk armor does not absorb the impact as well as solid armor, but it has less risk of being badly hindered by a battle staff or dueling cane. The difference between types of armor will always be a game of tradeoffs. Additionally, Mistborn have pewter to help with the pain(somewhat)

i am not talking about a blunt weapon i am talking about a sword i simply said that a sword whould shred the silk because of its weight as opposed to a knife

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

As mentioned by Kingsdaughter, the common people weren't exactly the type to carry swords. This holds for most any period of history, and doubly so on Scadrial, where the existence of Metalborn sparked tech progress away from metal weaponry out of necessity. Swords that aren't metal aren't the most effective things, and with the advent of the dueling cane, the sword may as well fade into obscurity. Knives are where it's at, and that's not likely to change

 except that mistborn are the only ones shown to use knifes and everyone else uses sword dueling canes or battle staffs also again stone

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Regarding aiming for the head, any solid armor will have more open spots a Mistborn could shove a knife into, because solid armor has to allow space for movement. A helmet doesn't prevent a Mistborn from aiming for those chinks, so the argument is moot. As previously stated, more tradeoffs. Personally, the armor with less weak spots seems like the better option to me.them?

no it isn't you could stab a man in a closed helmet through the eye openings but that's quite a bit harder then just stabbing him in the face or the neck

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

More specifically, she started fueling him when his pewter ran out, and his other metals as they began to run out later. So whatever amount of vials he was carrying on him were enough for quite a bit of fighting against the Koloss until after Marsh showed up. How does this affect your outlook on how much a Mistborn really needs to carry on them?

ehm no it says he felt like he burned metals even tho he ran out only when marsh appeared 

Quote

Bringing it back to my baseball bat vs katana bit from earlier: The baseball bat could dent a metal chestpiece(and possibly bend/crack a wooden one, depending on quality), while a silk one will conform to the bat and come out intact. Yes, silk armor does not absorb the impact as well as solid armor, but it has less risk of being badly hindered by a battle staff or dueling cane. The difference between types of armor will always be a game of tradeoffs. Additionally, Mistborn have pewter to help with the pain(somewhat)

restricted movement is preferable to death wouldn't you agree ? also for the last time i am not talking about mistborn, mistborn can wear silk it makes sense for them i am talking about guards and hazekillers maybe thugs

Edited November 24, 2017 by Zape