why do people only ever carry a few bottles of metals with them

[Zape]

1 hour ago, Agent34 said:

Knives are weapons. Quite effective ones.

they are daggers first of all and no they are not in the slightest a dagger is a backup of a backup in battle you whould use a polearm as a primary weapon and a sword or a mace or hammer as a secondary weapon along with a shield a dagger is something you used if you lost both your polearm and you side weapon it is not a effective weapon against a sword let alone a spear or a battle staff since it has no amour piercing capabilities and a very short reach 

[Zape]

19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The whole point was that Elend Duralumin burnt Atium allowing him to see into the spiritual realm. SH makes that pretty obvious...

sh ?

[BeskarKomrk]

1 minute ago, Zape said:

sh ?

Secret History, a novella that shows some of the background events of the original Mistborn trilogy (not being too specific with plot here in case you haven't read it).

[Kingsdaughter613]

Mistborn Secret History. Which is awesome and a lot of fun.

[Zape]

i haven't read it a person on here told me it has spoilers for the new trilogy il need to read that first 

[king of nowhere]

53 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

According to Wikipedia historical Glass knives were forged of obsidian glass. Only in the 1920s were ones of clear glass made. Some surgical scalpels are made of obsidian and it is perfectly fine to call them ‘glass’. The MAG has no ‘glass dagger’ option, only obsidian. Since this seems likely to have been something they asked it is quite possible that all references to ‘glass daggers’ actually refer to obsidian.

yeah, I was going to write that obsidian is but a kind of glass, but you got there first.

32 minutes ago, Zape said:

they are daggers first of all and no they are not in the slightest a dagger is a backup of a backup in battle you whould use a polearm as a primary weapon and a sword or a mace or hammer as a secondary weapon along with a shield a dagger is something you used if you lost both your polearm and you side weapon it is not a effective weapon against a sword let alone a spear or a battle staff since it has no amour piercing capabilities and a very short reach 

i don't want to steal the job from someone more versed than me in medieval weapons, but the better weapon depends on circumstance. A polearm works better in formation, because it gives reach and lets you create a spear wall. as a weapon for a single combatant, it is not good, because someone can just get into your reach and you have big troubles hitting. Swords are versatile, which is the reason they were carried around. A mace or a greatsword is good when you have to smash through an armored target. A knife is not a good weapon, it is at best a side weapon.

However, there are some advantages to a simple knife that make it better suited to mistborn:

1) concealment. mistborn mingle with noble society, and people don't know who they are. they can carry a knife under their clothes.if they carry around a pike, people will ask questions. Also, carrying around a sword inside a ballroom may not be socially acceptable, while a hidden knife remains hidden.

2) manufactoring. A knife can be made of glass. A sword cannot, glass is too brittle and such a sword would shatter too easily. mistborn cannot use metal weapons - welll they could, but it would be stupid - and that rules out swords.

there are also reasons why the normal disadvantages of knives do not apply to mistborn

1) unsuited against armor: nobody can use an armor against a mistborn anyway

2) short reach: that's a problem for normal people, but mistborn are more like flying around an only occasionally exchanging blows, so the short reach will matter less.

3) mace or hammer: those are good at penetrating armor, which is not a problem for a mistborn. Against an unarmored target, the sword or knife is better.

So, let's look at all the weapons you mentioned:

1) polearm: too encumbering to carry around, too lumbering in battle. doesn't work well in 1v1. Especially when your opponent can use pewter and afford to get wounded once if that lets him close the distance and stab you three times.

2) sword and shield: you can't make a sword of glass, and even if you make an aztec-style macuauhitl it will still be too large to comfortably carry around - though it is a good weapon and inquisitors use a version of it. The only shield you can afford as a mistborn is a wooden shield, and it would be too big and heavy too be worth carrying.

[Zape]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The whole point was that Elend Duralumin burnt Atium allowing him to see into the spiritual realm. SH makes that pretty obvious...

Elend was likely flaring his metals the whole time in that fight, which would use them quickly.

sorry i didn't read the secret history in that case your right about the options however i disagree about him flaring hist metals it only mention him using atium and later pewter when he was starting to get tired 

[Zape]

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

1) concealment. mistborn mingle with noble society, and people don't know who they are. they can carry a knife under their clothes.if they carry around a pike, people will ask questions. Also, carrying around a sword inside a ballroom may not be socially acceptable, while a hidden knife remains hidden.

elend literally carries around a sword cane and concealing a arming sword is not that hard

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

2) manufactoring. A knife can be made of glass. A sword cannot, glass is too brittle and such a sword would shatter too easily. mistborn cannot use metal weapons - welll they could, but it would be stupid - and that rules out swords.

again stone

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

1) unsuited against armor: nobody can use an armor against a mistborn anyway

which is honestly stupid why dont people wear armor ? armor != metal i can think of a few design's of the top of my head that could be at least somewhat protective that are made of leather wood and stone 

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

2) short reach: that's a problem for normal people, but mistborn are more like flying around an only occasionally exchanging blows, so the short reach will matter less.

what about the people that are trained to fight mistborn (can someone tell me what are they called in english ?)  they use a battle staff and a shield making it very hard to get up close 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Zape

[Kingsdaughter613]

You should read SH.

They may not have leather producing animals in the amounts needed. Regular animals don’t exist (for the most part) in TFE, and others seem pretty rare.

Stone is nowhere near as sharp as steel or obsidian and is much heavier. That’s the same issue with stone armor. Wooden armor we see, but wood is noisy and Mistborn are assasins. They want to be quiet.

A sword cane is: A: still steel and B: typically very thin and can be easily snapped. It’s good for the surprise, but a Mistborn will see the metal line and turn it into their weapon.

You are thinking of Mistborn as active combatants. In reality they are assasins. Kell trained Vin to be an assasin and she trained Elend similarly. A lot of the errors they make come from not being trained for the roles they later receive. A few vials + a dagger make a lot of sense for an assasin. 

Duralumin is the major reason Vin keeps running out of metals though.

Hazekillers are basically useless against a Mistborn. Kell beat them with a paperweight. Vin and Zane tear through them. They are most effective against Mistings.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Zape]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

They may not have leather producing animals in the amounts needed. Regular animals don’t exist (for the most part) in TFE, and others seem pretty rare.

then why not wood or stones the aztecs had some interesting wood and stone armor design that were pretty light but still provided protection 

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Stone is nowhere near as sharp as steel or obsidian and is much heavier.

something docent have to be that sharp to be deadly the thing with stone weaponry is that their lower cutting power is compensated by their weight that allows for much harder blows i agree that stone is probably not a preferable weapon for a mistborn i was thinking more about guards altho i could still see a mistborn carry a stone sword for protection

which btw why dont mistborn use bows ? a bow is a classic assassin weapon 

[Kingsdaughter613]

A bow takes a lot of training. I’m sure some do, but Kell doesn’t have that training (read the 11th Metal) and Vin didn’t have the time to learn even if Kell would have considered it. There is also the visibility factor; Mistborn work at night, surrounded by mist and ash. This isn’t a gun. You don’t have multiple shots. You have to reload every time.

Stone is HEAVY. I don’t think you realize the strength necessary to lift that kind of weight. Why thugs don’t use it is a better question.

[Zape]

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Stone is HEAVY. I don’t think you realize the strength necessary to lift that kind of weight. Why thugs don’t use it is a better question.

you are correct however i am not proposing to wear a stone breastplate what i imagine is having a breastplate made out of multiple pieces of wood connected with string with the inside padded with cotton and the outside covered with small stones kind of like scale armor 

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

A bow takes a lot of training. I’m sure some do, but Kell doesn’t have that training (read the 11th Metal) and Vin didn’t have the time to learn even if Kell would have considered it. There is also the visibility factor; Mistborn work at night, surrounded by mist and ash. This isn’t a gun. You don’t have multiple shots. You have to reload every time.

mistborn burn tin visibility isnt really a issue and if its a training thing why didn't zane or alreal use a bow ?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Zape

[Kingsdaughter613]

Tin helps. It’s not perfect. Zane is influenced by Ruin; he likely prefers to kill directly. We don’t know that he can’t. Training, BTW, takes years.

Arrows are evidence, as each one is unique. So if you don’t want an assasin to be traced back to your house a knife may be preferable to a bow.

Interesting idea on the armor. We don’t know enough about the guard to say for certain what they did. They may have just not thought of it. Or TLR thought it would make them a potentially viable threat (to stability, not himself) and suppressed the idea.

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, Zape said:

what about the people that are trained to fight mistborn (can someone tell me what are they called in english ?)

Hazekillers. Wooden Shields, Wooden Dueling Cane.

2 hours ago, Zape said:

which is honestly stupid why don't people wear armor ? armor != metal i can think of a few design's of the top of my head that could be at least somewhat protective that are made of leather wood and stone 

Normal soldiers do wear armor. Both Vin and Kelsier have used breastplates as launching anchors before. Those who are actually meant to go against Allomancers do not use metal.

• Leather armor is less protective than metal armor, so normal soldiers use standard metal. As for why Mistings don't use it... wearing armor would make a criminal stand out, and I'm sure wearing armor is against those Noble Sensibilities(IE: they choose not to). Hazekillers might need some practical rationale though. hrmm... maybe the mobility?
• Wooden armor? From what I'm seeing, both Laminar and Lamellar seem more time consuming to make than normal metal armor. Additionally, wood is rather flammable. I'm thinking this just didn't catch on, either because of the fire hazard, the effort involved, or(like with gunpowder) because TLR didn't want it to catch on.
• Stone armor.... To quote r/AskHistorians: "Metal is easier to manufacture with molds, lighter while still hard, and not as easy to shatter." Stone wouldn't catch on there for the same reason it didn't catch on here.
  • On the magical side, stone armor is heavy. It'll do a number on a Mistborn's flight paths, strain the body of a non-pewter burner, and slow down the person using it. Mistborn can move pretty fast, and you need to be able to move/react fast in order to fight them. It's the reason body armor through the centuries weighs less and less with each new iteration.

7 minutes ago, Zape said:

something docent have to be that sharp to be deadly the thing with stone weaponry is that their lower cutting power is compensated by their weight that allows for much harder blows i agree that stone is probably not a preferable weapon for a mistborn i was thinking more about guards altho i could still see a mistborn carry a stone sword for protection

Stone Sword. As a non-pewter burner, the prior argument stands. It's the reason we've moved to ceramics and carbon fiber for things, so we can make larger items light enough to effectively wield.

For a pewter-burner, it wouldn't be that different from a Koloss sword in function. However, both metal and wood are better materials to work with than stone. For wooden swords, we already have the dueling canes.

3 hours ago, Zape said:

elend literally carries around a sword cane and concealing a arming sword is not that hard

Do remember that dueling canes are a sword equivalent, rather than an actual sword. Technically they would be categorized as "clubs," as they were an impact weapon that had no bladed edges.

There's a double-edged sword(pun not intended) to that. Sure you could conceal a 2-3 foot sword, but can you easily draw that in a situation? A small dagger is much easier to draw from a hidden pocket/sleeve than a longer item would be, because they need much less room to maneuver it out. This is one of the reasons why getting "too close" to someone with a sword is a valid tactic, as a knife works better in confined spaces than swords do.

1 minute ago, Zape said:

which btw why don't mistborn use bows ? a bow is a classic assassin weapon
mistborn burn tin visibility isnt really a issue and if its a training thing why didn't zane or alreal use a bow ?

For the same reason TLR wanted bows to be used instead of guns: Training. You don't need fancy training to thrust your arm forward or pull a trigger, but firing a bow takes a lot more learning(and physical strength training, so a pewter burner doesn't just snap the bow on the draw). Bows are also kinda problematic in close quarters.

Zane and Allrianne? Allrianne doesn't strike me as the fighter, for the same reason Breeze isn't. Emotional Allomancy is a much more useful tool for them to use than a blade. For Zane, I'd blame it on his father. I don't think Straff offered him the opportunity to train with the bow. Even if he did, using a bow requires one to sit still(or have F-Zinc). Sitting still is not advised in an era of nighttime assassins.

Lastly, knives are infinitely reusable, while arrows aren't. Same principle as putting a bayonet on a rifle, so you still have a weapon when you run out of ammo.

4 hours ago, Zape said:

they are daggers first of all and no they are not in the slightest a dagger is a backup of a backup in battle you whould use a polearm as a primary weapon and a sword or a mace or hammer as a secondary weapon along with a shield a dagger is something you used if you lost both your polearm and you side weapon it is not a effective weapon against a sword let alone a spear or a battle staff since it has no amour piercing capabilities and a very short reach 

As stated by Kingsdaughter613, you are mistakenly considering Mistborn as soldiers. They aren't. For the last thousand years, they've been assassins. The trappings of 1,000 yrs of tradition is hard to shake off. Assassins are all about practicality, and knives/daggers are practical for the situations they would normally be in, where the rest of that is not. Modern day assassins don't carry around rocket launchers now do they?

7 hours ago, Zape said:

there are countless times where a mission goes wrong and a mistborn has to be able to fight his way out just carrying a sword will not hinder them 

Having a backup plan is a valid complaint, but they do have one. Mistborn can essentially fly away if things go wrong. The only times where they wouldn't do this is if they got caught before accomplishing their objective, which they actively try to avoid happening. And even if they did get caught, as shown by Kelsier vs Hazekillers in book 1, the vast majority of the opposition they would face has to be roused from their sleep and get to the area. The only time you would be forced to fight is if your objective is guarded, or if you got detected very early on, when it might just be better to leave and try some other time.

7 hours ago, Zape said:

well them it might be wise to bring more then a few hours worth of ammo wouldn't it ? 

See, carrying extra ammo is a conscious choice. Conscious choices are made for a reason. A Misting doesn't carry a few more hours worth of metal because they don't think they will need it when they head out. When they were going to the Kandra Caves, Elend and crew didn't expect to be fighting the better part of a quarter million Koloss, so they didn't bring the necessary metal to fight that many. During the siege of Fadrex City, Elend only had about 40,000 Koloss before Ruin took control of them, so I imagine they expected Ruin to have about 40,000, and geared up accordingly.

11 hours ago, Zape said:

but why glass ? why not copy the inquisitors obsidian is a lot better for knives or why not stone ? sure its a bit heavier but its a lot sturdier stone can allow you to carry actual weapons for self defense like swords or spears instead of battle staff. I mean you'd think at least the people trained to fight mistborn would use stone.

As I mentioned before, Elend(and/or Vin) had some Obsidian Daggers in HoA. I will hold to my earlier supposition that the wonky tech advancements TLR allowed made glass a cheaper alternative to obsidian, for the.. less reputable fellows at the very least. As for stone, it's got the same principle in mind. Try sharpening a stone with ye olde tech and tell me how that works out. Glass and Obsidian(and metal) are all easier to work with than stone.

Dueling canes were made of wood rather than stone because wood is lighter and more aerodynamic, allowing a much faster swing(more like a real sword). All that extra impact power is meaningless if you can't swing the thing fast enough to actually make contact. There's a balance to be struck there, and stone does not make the cut.

[Zape]

first of all can you please list the names of the main cast there is clearly quite a bit of difference between the English version and the translation i read

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Normal soldiers do wear armor. Both Vin and Kelsier have used breastplates as launching anchors before. Those who are actually meant to go against Allomancers do not use metal.

• Leather armor is less protective than metal armor, so normal soldiers use standard metal. As for why Mistings don't use it... wearing armor would make a criminal stand out, and I'm sure wearing armor is against those Noble Sensibilities(IE: they choose not to). Hazekillers might need some practical rationale though. hrmm... maybe the mobility?
• Wooden armor? From what I'm seeing, both Laminar and Lamellar seem more time consuming to make than normal metal armor. Additionally, wood is rather flammable. I'm thinking this just didn't catch on, either because of the fire hazard, the effort involved, or(like with gunpowder) because TLR didn't want it to catch on.
• Stone armor.... To quote r/AskHistorians: "Metal is easier to manufacture with molds, lighter while still hard, and not as easy to shatter." Stone wouldn't catch on there for the same reason it didn't catch on here.
  • On the magical side, stone armor is heavy. It'll do a number on a Mistborn's flight paths, strain the body of a non-pewter burner, and slow down the person using it. Mistborn can move pretty fast, and you need to be able to move/react fast in order to fight them. It's the reason body armor through the centuries weighs less and less with each new iteration.

 read what i wrote above it really docent take that much ingenuity to come up with a functional armor design that uses wood leather and stone 

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Stone Sword. As a non-pewter burner, the prior argument stands. It's the reason we've moved to ceramics and carbon fiber for things, so we can make larger items light enough to effectively wield.

For a pewter-burner, it wouldn't be that different from a Koloss sword in function. However, both metal and wood are better materials to work with than stone. For wooden swords, we already have the dueling canes.

Do remember that dueling canes are a sword equivalent, rather than an actual sword. Technically they would be categorized as "clubs," as they were an impact weapon that had no bladed edges

you can use hardened ceramics with a wood core then 

7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

There's a double-edged sword(pun not intended) to that. Sure you could conceal a 2-3 foot sword, but can you easily draw that in a situation? A small dagger is much easier to draw from a hidden pocket/sleeve than a longer item would be, because they need much less room to maneuver it out. This is one of the reasons why getting "too close" to someone with a sword is a valid tactic, as a knife works better in confined spaces than swords do.

that's why i brought up hazekillers they use shields which make it hard to just charge at them 

16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

see carrying extra ammo is a conscious choice. Conscious choices are made for a reason. A Misting doesn't carry a few more hours worth of metal because they don't think they will need it when they head out. When they were going to the Kandra Caves, Elend and crew didn't expect to be fighting the better part of a quarter million Koloss, so they didn't bring the necessary metal to fight that many. During the siege of Fadrex City, Elend only had about 40,000 Koloss before Ruin took control of them, so I imagine they expected Ruin to have about 40,000, and geared up accordingly.

okay but my question still stands why do mistborn only carry 3 bottles it makes sense for mistlings but mistborn mission can last a really long time 

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Zape said:

okay but my question still stands why do mistborn only carry 3 bottles it makes sense for mistings but mistborn mission can last a really long time 

A majority of Mistborn are Nobles, who have busy things to be doing the next morning, or criminals, who know the value of when to run vs when to hide. In most circumstances, if a Mistborn is pulling more than an all-nighter, something has gone very wrong. With the advent of Duralumin and the War against Ruin, they should start carrying more, but before that?

Assassins are useful because they can get in, do their job, and get out without getting caught. But they are most useful when they can do that quickly. Vin and Zane tore through Cett's Tower in a matter of hours. Kelsier managed to kill every guard/noble in the area and get out with enough time for Lord Tresting's Estate to have burned to the ground before the sun came up. Elend and Crew vs the Koloss was all within one standard daytime segment, so 12-14 hours at most. Your definition of "a really long time" appears to be quite different from mine.

10 minutes ago, Zape said:

that's why i brought up hazekillers they use shields which make it hard to just charge at them 

A shield is just as bulky as a sword in close quarters. Knife still has the advantage if you are the combatant that's more skilled at maneuvering. Hrmm... not sure if we have any examples in the books, but a pewter-burner could probably grab onto the Hazekiller's dueling cane, preventing it from being used. Maybe that's why they work in groups...

The shield isn't to keep enemies away, it's to keep projectiles at bay. A pewter-burner who gets close could easily rip the shield from their grasp. The deterrent from approaching is, and will always be, the weapon. Blows from a dueling cane hurt, a lot. Vin takes about 3 at once, and even with her own pewter to negate some of it, she's not having a good time.

19 minutes ago, Zape said:

you can use hardened ceramics with a wood core then 

The general consensus in r/Worldbuilding is that ceramics for weaponry are rather breakable. As evidenced by the medieval Brigantine and the Aztec Macuahuitl, ceramics are best served in small pieces than one large item.

Using a wooden core would help, but I'm still leaning towards the dueling cane being more useful, despite not having a cutting edge. That's personal opinion though, as I'd have to do more research to make a definitive answer. Although, if you use something with "teeth" like the Macuahuitl, rather than a proper blade, that's gonna be a pain to sheath/conceal safely. Tradeoffs..

41 minutes ago, Zape said:

 read what i wrote above it really docent take that much ingenuity to come up with a functional armor design that uses wood leather and stone 

Necessity is the mother of invention. Ingenuity is good at coming up with clever solutions to a problem, but if it's not seen as an issue that needs fixing? It's been 1,024 years. I(and probably you) refuse to believe that nobody said "hey, why don't we wear armor?" in all that time. There has to be a reason why armor for Mistings didn't catch on, but we can only speculate at this point.

• I can see Thugs and Mistborn forgoing armor, since they have pewter and/or Atium to protect them.
• Rioters/Soothers are manipulators, and Tineyes are scouts, rather than fighters, so they shouldn't be in a situation where they would need armor.
• Seekers are up in the air, but I'd lean more towards them not being fighters. Augurs(Gold) too.
• Lurchers have shields to block coins, so that might be an excuse, but a little armor wouldn't hurt.
• Coinshots can push away coins, so no need for a shield, but.. I'm not sure here.
• Smokers should be protected, since they are important to not getting caught. Maybe they don't wear armor so they don't stand out?

55 minutes ago, Zape said:

can you please list the names of the main cast there is clearly quite a bit of difference between the English version and the translation i read

I'd figure character names shouldn't be changed in a translation, but sure why not. Names in Italics.
Kelsier - Mistborn.  Vin - Mistborn.  Sazed - Feruchemist.  Breeze - Soother.  Ham - Philosopher, Thug.
Marsh - Kelsier's Brother, Seeker.  Dockson - Skaa.  Elend - Noble, Mistborn.  Clubs - Carpenter, Smoker.
Spook - Club's Nephew, Tineye.  Allrianne - Cett's Daughter, Rioter.  Zane - Elend's Half-Brother, Mistborn.

Satisfactory?

[Zape]

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

A majority of Mistborn are Nobles, who have busy things to be doing the next morning, or criminals, who know the value of when to run vs when to hide. In most circumstances, if a Mistborn is pulling more than an all-nighter, something has gone very wrong. With the advent of Duralumin and the War against Ruin, they should start carrying more, but before that?

okay fair enough i guess 

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

A shield is just as bulky as a sword in close quarters. Knife still has the advantage if you are the combatant that's more skilled at maneuvering. Hrmm... not sure if we have any examples in the books, but a pewter-burner could probably grab onto the Hazekiller's dueling cane, preventing it from being used. Maybe that's why they work in groups...

mistborn dont really tend to fight in closets as far as im remember even in a hallway which is the tightest space i can remember them fighting in a sword and shield whould still give you a advantage 

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Although, if you use something with "teeth" like the Macuahuitl, rather than a proper blade, that's gonna be a pain to sheath/conceal safely

you could use it as a axe like the inquisitors 

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Necessity is the mother of invention. Ingenuity is good at coming up with clever solutions to a problem, but if it's not seen as an issue that needs fixing? It's been 1,024 years. I(and probably you) refuse to believe that nobody said "hey, why don't we wear armor?" in all that time. There has to be a reason why armor for Mistings didn't catch on, but we can only speculate at this point.

ideas dont flow naturally tho gunpowder being the perfect example as Kingsdaughter613 suggested i find it far more likely that the lord ruler thought it whould give the people too much power and made the idea go away 

11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'd figure character names shouldn't be changed in a translation, but sure why not. Names in Italics.
Kelsier - Mistborn.  Vin - Mistborn.  Sazed - Feruchemist.  Breeze - Soother.  Ham - Philosopher, Thug.
Marsh - Kelsier's Brother, Seeker.  Dockson - Skaa.  Elend - Noble, Mistborn.  Clubs - Carpenter, Smoker.
Spook - Club's Nephew, Tineye.  Allrianne - Cett's Daughter, Rioter.  Zane - Elend's Half-Brother, Mistborn.

Satisfactory?

 yes thank you and you whould be surprised actually 

sazed in my translation was written more like caesar or sizer breeze was written as breeza clubs was translated as crutches as spook as jumper elend was written as aland and cett as kat

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Zape said:

mistborn dont really tend to fight in closets as far as im remember even in a hallway which is the tightest space i can remember them fighting in a sword and shield would still give you a advantage 

Close quarters includes both parties being in very close proximity. If I were right in front of you, your elbow would bang into my shoulder on your downswing and you'd cut the air. Situations like that favor knives, because swords aren't the best grapple weapons. This is what I meant earlier about the valid tactic of being "too close" to someone with a sword.

Just because you are in the great outdoors doesn't mean you can't be hemmed in. If I keep up my forward momentum and stick close to you(something a maniacal Mistborn like Kelsier or Zane would be good at), I can force you to constantly be backing up in order to have room to swing your sword, while never sacrificing the mobility of my knives. I don't even have to force you into a wall/corner. So long as you can't maneuver your sword to swing it, knives have the advantage.

Shields can force someone back a foot or so, but that's why I mentioned ripping the shield away via pewter. Despite wielding melee weaponry, you really don't want to be in close quarters against a determined Mistborn.

22 minutes ago, Zape said:

you could use it as a axe like the inquisitors 

I was gonna mention how the macuahuitl was a sword-like object, so using the traditional toolbelt-loop to hook an axe into wouldn't work. However, there's nothing stopping you from designing the weapon with less teeth, so it's got more of a handle to it. So that's "sheathing" it, but I'm still not sure how safe that'd be, especially if you're concealing it within an secret pocket/sleeve. Modern Axes get blade covers for a reason.

27 minutes ago, Zape said:

ideas don't flow naturally tho gunpowder being the perfect example

However, gunpowder was discovered(in real life at least) by accident. Alchemists trying to make a potion of immortality inadvertently made a bomb.

Armor is a concept that already exists, so ideas would flow more naturally from it.

31 minutes ago, Zape said:

as Kingsdaughter613 suggested i find it far more likely that the lord ruler thought it would give the people too much power and made the idea go away 

I.. probably agree. I'm still of the opinion that there is a semi-rational reason why it wouldn't have caught on anyway, but nothing prevents TLR from quietly supporting that if he so chose. Not that different from modern companies buying reviews for their products, come to think of it. TLR can subtly provide some support to an esteemed thinker who's speaking out against armor for Metalborn, and the public will go along with it. Elend probably read about it in one of his books

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You are thinking of Mistborn as active combatants. In reality they are assasins. Kell trained Vin to be an assasin and she trained Elend similarly. A lot of the errors they make come from not being trained for the roles they later receive. A few vials + a dagger make a lot of sense for an assasin. 

 

that. just that.

those guys spent 1024 years hiding in society. they did not wear an armor or carry a sword because that would make them stand out. and when you are an assassin standing out is really bad. the capacity to surprise the target was worth more. so mistborn got an equipment that was good for that - well except the mistcoat, which as an equipment I never liked anyway. it is said to have some protective function though, so I'd guess it's made of hard leather and has some limited armor functionality.

Then with the fall of the lord ruler the rules change. from there to the final ascension is only a couple years. not enough time to rrethink the equipment, and mistborn are becoming really rare anyway.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Actually the mistcloak makes sense. It obscures the figure, making it difficult to target. It is dark, multilayered, and probably not pure black, so it blends into shadows. And in the mist it acts as simple chamouflage, blending in to the surroundings. 

As an aside, it is almost certainly made of silk, gauze and organza and tulle, with silk forming the hood and collar. The other materials would form the tassels. Leather wouldn’t swirl in the mist. You need really light, strong fabric.

Tulle, gauze and organza were all originally made from silk, and silk is very strong. It can stop a bullet! https://www.ventureballistics.com/the-impenetrability-of-silk-to-bullets-1st-known-instance-of-bulletproof-fabric.html The original bullet proof vest was silk. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cultofmac.com/324792/stopping-bullets-was-this-priests-calling/amp/ It’s even used by police officers in Thailand! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/379338.stm Silk can also catch a knife, and tightly woven, layered silk is hard to cut easily. So a silken mistcloak would be extremely useful.

This actually takes care of our armor problem! They use silk body armor. Or, at least, the wealthy do. But not everyone can afford it, not everyone remembers to put on their coats, and Mistborn strike for the exposed areas, like the eyes. And a speeding coin, while silk can deflect it, would likely just bring the fabric with it. (Loose fabric is better for stopping knives, but bad for bullets.)

But if you have such a strong material for armor why would you even consider some complicated stone and wood contraption?

[Zape]

i was talking more about hazekillers and nobles 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Zape

[Kingsdaughter613]

They would probably wear loose layers of silk. But Mistborn aim for exposed areas, and coins are more dangerous for the force behind them, like bullets. That’s not dealing with people forgetting to put the coat on or finding it ‘unfashionable.’

In general layered silk would make excellent armor though.

[Zape]

15 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I.. probably agree. I'm still of the opinion that there is a semi-rational reason why it wouldn't have caught on anyway, but nothing prevents TLR from quietly supporting that if he so chose. Not that different from modern companies buying reviews for their products, come to think of it. TLR can subtly provide some support to an esteemed thinker who's speaking out against armor for Metalborn, and the public will go along with it. Elend probably read about it in one of his books

you overestimate the role of fire in combat remember we are talking about a pre gunpowder period lighting a person on fire is very hard and unlikely the only way i can think of doing that is grabbing a lamp and throwing it at someone which in that case they will burn either way infact wood covered in treated leather with stone on top would probably be more fire resistant than simply cotton or silk clothing 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Who said anything about fire???? I didn’t... Did you read what I wrote? I said that if a form of armor, in this case silk, was readily available people wouldn’t bother with a more complicated option.

Silk is used as armor by police forces today. Armies are trying to figure out how to make body armor for soldiers from spider silk. And Mistborn silk is more likely to come from a specialized spider than a silk worm, so it would be even stronger than our regular silk. And our regular silk is STRONG. So they won’t need regular armor if they wear layered silk vests.

The issue is that if the vest is of tight fabric a sharp enough knife can cut it. But if it’s loose a knife will get caught in the fabric. Loose fabric won’t prevent a bullet or fast coin from killing though, so hazekillers still need a shield.

It’s possible regular guard members wear both a padded under vest to protect from arrows and a looser one to protect from slices. (A strong enough padding can protect from knives too but having both is easier.) Mistborn, though, are still likely to strike for the exposed areas, like the eyes. And people will forget to wear their silk underwear or shirts or coats. Because the armor is built into everyday wear, which makes it easy to forget the dual purpose.

[Zape]

i was talking to The One Who connects