[OB] Why there are only 9 unmade

[Bean]

So here is my theory:

Prior to the Humans coming and ruining the Roshar party for everyone, the Listeners worshiped 10 really cool spren. when those softskinned human jerks showed up with Odium in tow the natives got ticked and were seduced by Odium, trading some autonomy for power. Most of that is pretty much confirmed cannon. the theory part is that 9 of those gods went to become the unmade. I think the 10th was the Stormfather. He opted not to accept any of Odiums corrupting power. 

We know that the Listeners were aware of the surges, but were forbidden to use them. Therefore surgebinding existed prior to the humans. All 10 surges and possibly 10 orders of surge/void binding. There are only 9 types of fused because the Stormfather stayed strong. There is a 10th fused form and a 10th type of surgebinging but it can't exist unless the Stormfather submits to Odium and is corrupted like the other 9 unmade.

[hoser]

On other shardworlds there have been special numbers associated with Shards and combinations there of.  The "10" Surges seems like a "magic" number associated with H&C.  The other chart that has has 10 alternate symbols could be Odium's corrupted versions (corrupting seems like his thing) or maybe related to fabrials.  

There is a hint in the text IIRC, that Odium has an association with 9.  

I know nothing definitively, but making theories based on 9 being 10 - 1 could miss when 9 is Odium's special number.  Do we really know that there are 9 types of Fused?  

The Unmade seem characteristic of Odium.  I think there being 9 is based on that being his magic number.  The Fuzed, which seem to me to be the Voidbringers, appear to be based on corruptions of the surges.  So there could be 10 types or if 9, it could be based on 10 - 1 logic.  If this makes any sense.  

Cheers!

[Egomere]

I have a theory that the unmade were actually created when each of the heralds broke (which we now know is what lead to each of the desolations.)

So somehow I think in the process of torturing the beshards out of each herald when they broke odium was able to 'flense' part of their soul away and corrupt it into an unmade (with some wierd aspects of said herald soul corrupted powers).

As I'm not sure we know whether each unmade was from born / made / created at the same time - just that they are old so this could explain different 'ages' and the different powers. We also know that Taln 'held' through the latest torture but we don't know if there is tenth unmade that has yet to be revealed.

The 9 unmade would of course be from the 9 heralds that broke with a potential tenth to be revealed in the future.

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Bean said:

the Listeners worshiped 10 really cool spren.

1 hour ago, Bean said:

Most of that is pretty much confirmed cannon.

I'm pretty sure that this one doesn't hold. I could be wrong, but I'd want to see a source of that.

28 minutes ago, Egomere said:

I have a theory that the unmade were actually created when each of the heralds broke (which we now know is what lead to each of the desolations.)

So somehow I think in the process of torturing the beshards out of each herald when they broke odium was able to 'flense' part of their soul away and corrupt it into an unmade (with some wierd aspects of said herald soul corrupted powers).

As I'm not sure we know whether each unmade was from born / made / created at the same time - just that they are old so this could explain different 'ages' and the different powers. We also know that Taln 'held' through the latest torture but we don't know if there is tenth unmade that has yet to be revealed.

The 9 unmade would of course be from the 9 heralds that broke with a potential tenth to be revealed in the future.

This is very unlikely with the release of Oathbringer, as it contradicts that Desolations started happening faster and faster because the Heralds had suffered more, all the way from "hundreds of years between Desolations" to "the last two Desolations happened within a year of one another". This both implies that there have been more than 9 Desolations, and that "breaking" isn't something that happens for good, but rather something that has to happen every time again.

[Egomere]

@Leyrann

I took the increased speed of the desolations because each herald broke once but quicker which created a desolation.

The fact that they happened quicker later was because the heralds broke faster so Humans had more desolations in a single lifetime which lead to harder and harder battles.

It could have been thousands of years between the first few attacks - enough for people to progress and remember heralds teachings between the each, but not quite us much as the 4500 year gap until current time. (except that was without the attacks and after the ninth time the heralds lied and said the people had won.)

Also this is why at the start of WoK Taln was dead and back in damnation whilst the 9 other heralds split with Jez waiting (and Kalak realises they have all broken - and can't go back - to me this implies only the one break per herald.)

[Fifth of Daybreak]

43 minutes ago, Egomere said:

The 9 unmade would of course be from the 9 heralds that broke with a potential tenth to be revealed in the future.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the number of Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

 

I'm actually working on a theory similar to yours. I've aggregated all the quotes on my PC, but I haven't finished writing it out yet. But there can't be a tenth unmade to be revealed later.

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, Egomere said:

@Leyrann

I took the increased speed of the desolations because each herald broke once but quicker which created a desolation.

The fact that they happened quicker later was because the heralds broke faster so Humans had more desolations in a single lifetime which lead to harder and harder battles.

It could have been thousands of years between the first few attacks - enough for people to progress and remember heralds teachings between the each, but not quite us much as the 4500 year gap until current time. (except that was without the attacks and after the ninth time the heralds lied and said the people had won.)

Also this is why at the start of WoK Taln was dead and back in damnation whilst the 9 other heralds split with Jez waiting (and Kalak realises they have all broken - and can't go back - to me this implies only the one break per herald.)

But as I said, Oathbringer contradicts this. We hear from the Heralds that each time someone broke, a new Desolation started, and they could handle less and less because of having already been tortured many times, until Aharietam came, where they realized that only one had been killed, and where they also realized that he had actually never broken (which also implies it's no simple "counting down the Heralds left). It's explicitly called a miracle at some point, I believe by a Herald in a vision or by the Stormfather, that only one of them died.

Additionally, Oathbringer also explictly tells us that there was hundreds of years between the first Desolations, not thousands. This also makes sense with the timeline we know from Brandon, which quite clearly tells us there's no time for thousands of years between Desolations if we're halfway through the Cosmere timeline and the last happened 4500 years ago.

I understand the allure of one Desolation for each Herald breaking and then one Unmade as well, but there is absolutely nothing that points into that direction. All comments we know about Desolations imply that there has not been a special number of Desolations, and if one Herald had to break each time, it would also beg the question how, at Aharietam, the Heralds were not aware of this and simply said "we have to wait for Talenelat to break, fight one last time and it's over". They told humanity it was over, and that wasn't because there was one more to come, that was because they had no idea wheter it would ever be over and because they wanted to be rid of their burden.

[Egomere]

@Leyrann

Although in that Q 'n' A he does say that the 99 desolations was made up and there were alot fewer of them...

And I know what your saying but I still think I might be on the right track. OB doesn't actually contradict this idea. The heralds were all tortured at the same time - this is why it was quicker for the desolations as time went on to occur - all 10 got tortured for X years. Then they returned and held out for another few hundred years. then another. but with the memories of the previous torture. Then realising that the last herald hadn't broken at all yet (Taln) they wimped out and ran away. Nothing actually implies that there were many desolations only that they happened. No-one has a clue especially as all the info of them was lost in the past 4500 years due to belief of having 'won'.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Egomere
minor changes + spelling

[aemetha]

I don't think we should really try too hard to find symmetries between Honor and Odium. They are not opposites in the same way as Ruin and Preservation.

Honor values the number 10, and order and adherence to rules. Honor looks backwards. Behaviour is related back to prior commitments. This is why Honor is pretty horrible as shards go at predicting the future.

Odium values the number 9, and passion, and motivating people towards behaviour. Behaviour follows passion, and is why Odium is better at predicting the future than Honor. He uses passion to corrupt what Honor has created, so you'll see some symmetries there. What is strictly his, and not a corruption of something else created by Honor on the other hand will reflect his holy number, 9.

[+Wax]

Still voidbinding is 10 orders.  So, it’s not always 9.

 

I have a wild guess  that the unmade were the worldsingers corrupted by Odium.

Sja-anat specifically mentions, “We were made, then unmade”.

So, definitely corrupted spren.

[hoser]

The biggest problem I have with the "broken Heralds creates Unmade" theory is imagining the first Desolation without agents of Odium.  In the flashbacks it has seemed to me that they are known quantities.  I imagine 10 Heralds and 9 Unmade facing off at the first Desolation.  

[Egomere]

4 minutes ago, hoser said:

The biggest problem I have with the "broken Heralds creates Unmade" theory is imagining the first Desolation without agents of Odium.  In the flashbacks it has seemed to me that they are known quantities.  I imagine 10 Heralds and 9 Unmade facing off at the first Desolation.  

Except the I think the 'first desolation' was actually when Humans arrived on Roshar and attacked the Dawnsingers (or listeners, Parshendi). Well before the humans left worshipping Odium and switched to Honour (and odium corrupting the spren / parshendi). It was after the Humans switched that Honour created the Heralds and they signed up for the oathpact. So the first 'agents of Odium' were the early Humans with no heralds around.

[humanchaos]

This is what we know about the unmade, at least according to the book.

Yelig-nar: not much known except he's responsible for the transformations regarding swallowing gemstones

Sja-anat: corrupts spren, usually lesser spren but we now know it can be more, like the spren of the oathgate for example. Also she seems to be the one referred to by Mraize about changing sides. She warned Shallan about the oathgate, sent them to Shadesmar rather then killing them, and lied to the others about their location to give them time to escape.

Nergaoul: Responsible for the thrill. This one isn't sapient and effected all sides equally. Also allowed for men fully under its influence to be open to bonding with voidspren as seen during the battle of Thaylen Field

Moelach: Responsible for granting visions of the future, mostly death rattles. Though it is now confirmed that the future as seen in these visions is not set in stone, as seen when Renarin saw his death and his father being made into Odium's champion, neither of which actually happened.

Ashertmarn (Heart of the Revel): This one causes a lust for indulgence, confronted by Shallan in Kholinar.

Ba-Ado-Mishram: Not much is known, from Hessi's Mythica, we know that it is said "she was keen of mind, a highprincess among he enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations."

Chemoarish (Dustmother): Also, practically nothing known yet except that she is not the Nightwatcher.

Re-Shephir (Midnight Mother): Responsible for the monsters attacking the village in one of Danlinar's visions. Also for the copycat murders in Urithiru. Confronted and scared away by Shallan, and has some kind of weakness for lightweavers, evident in the fact that it had previously been captured and trapped by one in the past

These are the 8 listed from the pre chapter excerpts of Hessi's Mythica. It also states that the number 9 is an unholy number often associated with the enemy. I do not recall a mention of 10 orders of voidbinding, and my theory is that the voidbinding is similar to, but not exact correlated to surgebinding. Examples are the fused that Moash killed was like a windrunner, but the voidlight did not heal her, As contrasted to the one that used lightweaving to sneak into the bank and try to steal the Kings Drop, that one was able to heal. Along those lines, I also think that if there are only 9 types of voidbinding instead of 10, then the surgebinder order that is least likely to have a voidbinder counterpart would the be Bondsmiths.

And another evidence that can be used to confirm the number 9 for unmade, would be the nine shadows surrounding the champion. 9 shadows were seen by Dalinar and Renarin, so that would confirm to me at least that the number 9 is Odiums number.

[humanchaos]

27 minutes ago, Egomere said:

Except the I think the 'first desolation' was actually when Humans arrived on Roshar and attacked the Dawnsingers (or listeners, Parshendi). Well before the humans left worshipping Odium and switched to Honour (and odium corrupting the spren / parshendi). It was after the Humans switched that Honour created the Heralds and they signed up for the oathpact. So the first 'agents of Odium' were the early Humans with no heralds around.

The problem I see with this is that we don't actually know much about the first desolation. All we know for sure is that Humans were not native to Roshar, and they brought Odium with them when the Parshendi let them come. It seems like Shinovar was given to them initially as a place that they could maintain an ecosystem similar to their native land. We also know that at some point, the spren began to bond with the humans, and that it made the Parshendi feel betrayed.

For all we know, the listeners/singers could have been the first instigators. Yes the humans brought Odium, and therefore the void and the desolation, but it doesn't mean they were the aggressors. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, it's just not clear at the moment.

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Egomere said:

@Leyrann

Although in that Q 'n' A he does say that the 99 desolations was made up and there were alot fewer of them...

And I know what your saying but I still think I might be on the right track. OB doesn't actually contradict this idea. The heralds were all tortured at the same time - this is why it was quicker for the desolations as time went on to occur - all 10 got tortured for X years. Then they returned and held out for another few hundred years. then another. but with the memories of the previous torture. Then realising that the last herald hadn't broken at all yet (Taln) they wimped out and ran away. Nothing actually implies that there were many desolations only that they happened. No-one has a clue especially as all the info of them was lost in the past 4500 years due to belief of having 'won'.

You're actually arguing my point now. We don't know how many Desolations there have been, and therefore there is no reason to assume that there were nine and that one Herald broke each time, and when the next one broke they all went back. In fact, if that had been the workings of the Oathpact, the Heralds would, without doubt, have known it, and would have known that there had been nine Desolations yet, and only Taln yet had to break, and they'd have just gone back and said "okay, one last time and then we're over with it". But that wasn't the case. They knew that if they went back, one of them would break, and a new Desolation would come. This time, all except Taln, who had never broken, had survived, which granted them the unique chance to break the Oathpact by refusing to go back.

Tl;dr: We don't know how many Desolations there would have been, and if a different Herald would have to break each time, causing a new Unmade to spawn every time, they would know that they simply had to count down 10 of them, and they would have known that only one still had to break, and they'd have decided to go back to Damnation. However, it was the lack of knowing when they'd be out of it that drove them to quit, so to speak.

(oh and if you want to tag someone, make sure to click their name in the dropdown menu that appears while typing, or that person doesn't actually get a notification)

Edited November 19, 2017 by Leyrann

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

This also makes sense with the timeline we know from Brandon, which quite clearly tells us there's no time for thousands of years between Desolations if we're halfway through the Cosmere timeline and the last happened 4500 years ago.

Do remember that the Prelude(Aharietiam) takes place 6,000 yrs after the Shattering. [2] 4,500 yrs later would be at the back end of a 10,000 yr timeline. This is what happens when entries are paraphrased.

Regardless of the details, I still agree that the Desolations had to be hundreds of years apart at most. 6,000 yrs from the Shattering minus the time Odium spent killing Shards and doing other stuff would probably be about 3-4 millennia at most.

31 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

I do not recall a mention of 10 orders of voidbinding, and my theory is that the voidbinding is similar to, but not exact correlated to surgebinding.

It's from the Ars Arcanum in WoK and WoR. Nazh makes an offhand mention of "the ten levels of Voidbinding," but he didn't have any other solid info at the time. We know that the chart at the back of WoK is a Voidbinding Chart, and there are 10 "Surges" on it.

It'd make sense for there to be 10 Voidbinding things either way, because they manipulate fundamental forces through the Surges. There are only 10 Surges, so anything manipulating them would follow that pattern of 10.

3 hours ago, Egomere said:

Kalak realizes they have all broken - and can't go back - to me this implies only the one break per herald.)

He'd been tortured time and time again, went away and were dragged back for more, and now he finally has a chance to stay away. In his situation, you'd say the same as him: "I can't take any more. I can't go back."

That's not implying anything magical, merely the sound of a broken man. Kelek recognizes that same brokenness in Jezrien's eyes shortly after during the prelude.

[DiamondMind]

@Leyrann I would say don't give up on your Unmade per broken Herald theory yet. It is possible that each was made the first time each Herald broke. Plus if my theory each Unmade corresponding to a Radiant Order theory is accurate, the ones that don't have a clear parallel are Willshapers, Stonewards, and Bondsmiths. It's still possible, even though I like my created from lesser spren theory better.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DiamondMind

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

@Leyrann I would say don't give up on your Unmade per broken Herald theory yet. It is possible that each was made the first each Herald broke. Plus if my theory each Unmade corresponding to a Radiant Order theory is accurate, the ones that don't have a clear parallel are Willshapers, Stonewards, and Bondsmiths. It's still possible, even though I like my created from lesser spren theory better.

I got nothing to give up on because I'm sceptical of it anyways.

But if you go with "first time each Herald broke", I feel like you're just starting to bend the theory on and on until you can fit it on what we know. While, in a way, that is how science works, I expect Brandon to not create something as... ugly as that. And of course there's also the above WoB which I'll quote again, which I think is quite deadly for this theory no matter what else:

 

Quote

 

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the number of Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

 

 

[Bean]

4 hours ago, hoser said:

On other shardworlds there have been special numbers associated with Shards and combinations there of.  The "10" Surges seems like a "magic" number associated with H&C.  The other chart that has has 10 alternate symbols could be Odium's corrupted versions (corrupting seems like his thing) or maybe related to fabrials.  

There is a hint in the text IIRC, that Odium has an association with 9.  

I know nothing definitively, but making theories based on 9 being 10 - 1 could miss when 9 is Odium's special number.  Do we really know that there are 9 types of Fused?  

The Unmade seem characteristic of Odium.  I think there being 9 is based on that being his magic number.  The Fuzed, which seem to me to be the Voidbringers, appear to be based on corruptions of the surges.  So there could be 10 types or if 9, it could be based on 10 - 1 logic.  If this makes any sense.  

Cheers!

As has been mentioned, the Ars Arcanum does mention 10 levels of void binding. But yes, Odiums number is 9. Either the Stormfather would not come to his side, or perhaps Odium was not able to turn him due to the 9 thing.  I realize that the ancient listeners worshiping 10 powerful spren is conjecture, that is part of the theory. To further back that up, in Words of Radiance when Eshonai is going out into the storm to assume storm form, she mentions that the storm father used to be on their side, but turned. Basically if I am right, the stormfather didn't turn away from them, rather they started worshiping Odium instead of Honor

[Egomere]

@Leyrann ah thanks for the info about tagging. (did that work)

And I know it's my theory's a stretch but I guess I still feel like they it could be the reason but yaep it's not so much evidence for it (or either side at the moment one way or another). We just don't know enough about the history of the desolations and what actually happened when human landed and brought odium (or was it the other way round did Odium bring humans to use as fodder in his war against Honour and Cultivation...

We're gonna have to wait for a few years to find out more with Book 4 and 5 (if not even longer with 6-10) but still I have suspect unmade have something to do with the heralds one way or another (and slightly more complex than Honour made 10 heralds so odium made the unmade as his versions)

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I'll bring my thoughts over here instead of starting a new topic. First off, here's all the information I think is relevant. Spoiler for length. 

Spoiler

My research into the Unmade has convinced me that these things were not simply “spirits of the void” or “nine shadows who moved in the night.” They were each a specific kind of spren, endowed with vast powers.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 855). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

-----

I should point out that although many personalities and motives are ascribed to them, I’m convinced that the Unmade were still spren. As such, they were as much manifestations of concepts or divine forces as they were individuals.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 869). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

-----

My research into the Unmade has convinced me that these things were not simply “spirits of the void” or “nine shadows who moved in the night.” They were each a specific kind of spren, endowed with vast powers.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 855). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

----- 

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the number of Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

-----

WeiryWriter

Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good guess.

-------

Questioner

Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

 

Footnote: In the epigraph for WoR 81 the Diagram says "The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however."

-------

A golden light, brilliant yet terrible. Standing before it, a dark figure in black Shardplate. The figure had nine shadows, each spreading out in a different direction, and its eyes glowed a brilliant red.

....[Long Break]

Odium, the Stormfather rumbled. The enemy. The god who had killed the Almighty. The force behind the Desolations.

“Nine shadows,” Dalinar whispered, trembling.

Nine shadows? The Unmade. His minions, ancient spren.

Still, those eyes haunted him. As frightening as it was to contemplate the Unmade, he feared that figure with the red eyes the most. Odium’s champion. 

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 32). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

-----

Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 774). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

------

They call me the Taker of Secrets, the figure said. Or they once did.

“One of the Unmade. Our enemies.”

We were made, then unmade, she agreed. But no, not an enemy!

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 817). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

-----

HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION, BUT IT DOESN’T MATTER AS IT ONCE DID. THE OATHPACT HAS BEEN WEAKENED ALMOST TO ANNIHILATION, AND ODIUM HAS CREATED HIS OWN STORM. THE FUSED DO NOT RETURN TO DAMNATION WHEN KILLED. THEY ARE REBORN IN THE NEXT EVERSTORM.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 408). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

-----

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 998). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

13

 So basically, I'm also subscribing to the "unmade are created by broken Heralds theory." 

The basic underlying theory looks like this: The Unmade were splintered spren of Odium, thereby satisfying the "made" from Sja-Anat, and the information from the Mythica. The parts of them that were unmade were what was taken from the Heralds. When a Herald 'breaks' I think it is the same process by which he was attempting to make Odium his champion, or Amaram. He was trying to get them to give up their emotions into the void. I don't want to speculate too deeply into what it was they are giving, but lets assume that it is somehow similar to a cognitive shadow, or a splinter of the Heralds themselves. This splinter is then given to the spren splinter of Odium. This creates a being who was "made and unmade," "specific spren ," "endowed with great powers," are manifestations of "concepts, diving forces, and individuals."  I see two solutions for that, (and actually tha WoB was the reason I made this theory.)

I also then would subscribe to the theory that they are matched to the Heralds, which can be viewed to satisfy the WoB about the Diagram, that they are not analogous, but rather, derivative. The mindless unmade would be the oldest, the ones who gave into the pain most quickly. Their prisons would be in the gem from each of their orders. Their derivations would be from the attributes. 

Neragoul then would be associated with the Dustbringers. Brave/Obedient is deviated into bloodlust and mindlessness. 

Yelignar would be associated with Skybreakers due to the swallowing of a smokestone. Just/confident. I don't have enough information to seperate Yelignar's influence from Amaram/Aesudan to properly disect this. 

I would pair Moelach with the truthwatchers for Learned/giving seems to fit nicely with the derivation of giving people images of the future as they die. Bondsmiths are another possibility, especially if Ishar is as mad as he seems to be, and pious guiding fits here. 

Ashertmarn I would pair with either Truthwatchers or Bondsmiths. Gluttony could be a derivation of either learned and giving or pious and guiding considering the context of him targeting the ardentia.

I am tempted to pair Ba-Ado-Misharm with the Windrunners simply because she was said to be a commander in the Mythica, and that is parallel with protecting/leading. Attacking/commanding.

Re-Shephir seems an obvious analog with Lightweavers, as she was captured by them, and seems to parallel their powers in some ways. Creativity and honesty is derived into imitating and misunderstanding.

Sja-Anat would be analogous with edgedancers. Loving and healing becomes corrupting and creating. The mythica page says her twisted creations are her beloved children. 

That only leaves the ninth unmade for the Willshapers. Dai-Gonarthis? ()

But what about Taln? What about the WoB that show there will not be a tenth undmade? I see two solutions. The second are why i decided to research this theory.

Solution 1: The Stormfather is wrong, Taln never broke, the desolation came anyway. Nalan thinks bonding spren could cause it to come faster. so it's not impossible. Ulim says that he escaped. Taravangian in the Diagram confuses this by saying the desolation can and will sit where it wishes, but then also states that Taln's will must be wearing down. We know that Odium takes emotion from people, and Nalan seems to have been affected by this, as he no longer feels any emotion, and yet in Taln's interlude in WoR he describes still feeling pain, and when interacting with Ash he definitely showed a lot of positive emotions. Taln also says he's late, which seems weird. Still, all in all, I find this unlikely. 

Solution 2: Taln's splinter will inhabit Odium's champion. Taln has proven himself to be the champion among Heralds, the strongest of will, most resolute, and hinted to be the most proficient in battle (he picks hopeless battles and wins.) He's too good for an unmade, he's lasted centuries under torture. His pain, his emotion, his passion for Roshar is unmatched among gods and men. He cannot be bonded to a mere spren. He needs to have a place of honor among the servants of Odium. I think that had Dalinar given his pain and guilt over to Odium, that he would have been endowed with whatever splinter of Taln Odium had removed from him in the breaking, and that would have given Dalinar incredible power, beyond that of the Unmade, as he is a human and not a spren. This is also why there isn't a tenth unmade, as it wasn't made of a spren, but rather of a human to be his Champion in the physical realm instead of the cognitive. The figure with nine shadows. The champion imbued with the greatest of all the powers that made the Unmade. All of the others are pale comparisons to him, mere shadows in his wake. Taln's dependability and resourcefulness corrupted by Odium into an incredible force, distilled, and placed into the Blackthorn, the greatest military force Roshar has ever known, leading the Unmade at the front lines of battle. The world would tremble at the first fall of his sword.

[PhineasGage]

I may have misunderstood something very fundamental here, and if so I apologise but here is my take;

The Unmade were "made then unmade" iirc.

I would posit that they were spren made by Honor/Cultivation prior to the arrival of Odium. At some point, Odium captured/beguiled them to join his side and he "unmade" them. That is, he took something fundamental from them that made them what they were. It would be unlikely that modern Rosharans would have a good understanding of the original spren if this is the case because they barely remember/understand the Unmade as they are now.

Hypothetically, the spren would likely be intellingent spren - like those that form the Nahel bond, and thus have specific traits that Odium could manipulate to his own ends. By taking a specific piece from each one, he could control them. It seems reasonable that Odium creates very little (if anything at all) - after all he is the void - he swallows things whole, I think he can manipulate by cutting specific threads but probably not create truly.

This might then explain why there are 9 - the nahel-bonded spren of most of the orders were fairly numerous prior to the recreance, but one order had specific spen - i.e the bonsmiths. Perhaps appropriate spren were simply not available to Odium, but also, the bondsmiths seem to be exceedingly close to the Intent of Honour so the spren associated with that order would be less likely to be able to be broken by Odium in the same way. 

Now, I'm not suggesting a timeline for when this might have happened - indeed the timeline of Roshar prior to the Hierocracy seems pretty broken - but hypothetically it could have happened prior to the formation of the KR - and may have been the trigger for spren deciding to bond humans - it may even been a means of trying to protect themselves. 

The reason I wondered this is because the Unmade do have a strange symmetry with the orders/heralds and heir attributes and goals. For example, Re-Shephir feel almost light-weaver-ish to me - she mimics with illusions. Moelach strikes me as being somewhat akin to the Truthwatchers in that I am reasonably sure that uncorrupted Truthwatchers get visions a bit like Renarinn, but that they don't see the future in the way that Moelach and Renarin do. Sja-anat is able to manipulate the spren of the Oathgates, which feels elsecaller-like (perhaps willshaper but we havent seen enough of what they can do) and I feel that Bo-Ado-Mishram is rather windrunner like.  I fully admit that this is by no means a complete hypothesis as I cannot see direct parallels for the Heart of the Revel or Nergaoul. 

I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the Heraldic failure theory though, After one failure, wouldnt they have tried to find another way? Even a single Unmade is a serious problem.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

40 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I would posit that they were spren made by Honor/Cultivation prior to the arrival of Odium. At some point, Odium captured/beguiled them to join his side and he "unmade" them. That is, he took something fundamental from them that made them what they were. It would be unlikely that modern Rosharans would have a good understanding of the original spren if this is the case because they barely remember/understand the Unmade as they are now.

It's not an implausible interpretation in the slightest.

 

41 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Hypothetically, the spren would likely be intellingent spren - like those that form the Nahel bond, and thus have specific traits that Odium could manipulate to his own ends. By taking a specific piece from each one, he could control them. It seems reasonable that Odium creates very little (if anything at all) - after all he is the void - he swallows things whole, I think he can manipulate by cutting specific threads but probably not create truly.

The problem I have with this is where it seems to contradict knowledge that we have. The Mythica states that the spren were endowed with vast powers. Taking things away from them is directly contrary to this, and does not explain how it would expand their powers. Also, the Stormfather refers to the other Bondsmith spren as his siblings, and speaks rather familiarly of the Nighwatcher. My thought is that the third spren is Odium's equivalent, so I'm unsure he wouldn't have access to that spren. Especially since Odium flat out beat through the Stormfather to get into Dalinar's vision. He splintered shards, a spren shouldn't be able to escape him. 

 

53 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the Heraldic failure theory though, After one failure, wouldnt they have tried to find another way? Even a single Unmade is a serious problem

If their power is aligned with Honor, then no. They've agreed to the Oathpact. That way or the highway, or go against their benefactor's intent.

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

The problem I have with this is where it seems to contradict knowledge that we have. The Mythica states that the spren were endowed with vast powers. Taking things away from them is directly contrary to this, and does not explain how it would expand their powers. Also, the Stormfather refers to the other Bondsmith spren as his siblings, and speaks rather familiarly of the Nighwatcher. My thought is that the third spren is Odium's equivalent, so I'm unsure he wouldn't have access to that spren. Especially since Odium flat out beat through the Stormfather to get into Dalinar's vision. He splintered shards, a spren shouldn't be able to escape him. 

I find myself wanting to protect my theory, even though I am fully aware of its flaws! Oh well, here we go;

1) the Mythica is new and admits to working with limited knowledge so I am happy to allow it to have mistakes. I mean, She specifically names 8 spren buts states that there should be 9. As an in world book, some of the information will be wrong/misleading - i'm choosing it to be this bit

2) I am a firm believer that spren are capable of change - it just takes longer than humans and is the result of what I would call cognitive "pressure" on them - ie expectations eventually result in slow changes occuring to spren over time.  

3) It may not have expanded their powers, more.... the powers manifest differently because of specific threads being cut. Like if you have a complex lattice work of string but make specific cuts you will change the overall appearance of the lattice - or destroy it completely.

4) I was under the impression that the Sibling was a spren of both Honor and Cultivation, it would be sibling to both the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather. I do not think that the Bondsmiths would bind a spren aligned to Odium. I have no specific evidence of this except one of the ancient radiants called it "sweet sibling" in one of the epilogues. I think it was the spren of Urithiru.

5) If Odium could destroy spren so easily, why has he not destroyed the Stormfather or Nightwatcher? He still has to contend with Cultivation. And I am suggesting the Unmade would have been while Honor was still alive. Odium is powerful, but not that powerful. 

[ScavellTane]

My Theory = 'Made' + Dawnshards = Unmade