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[OB] Kaladin's love life ?

554 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, deacon said:

I just dislike the statement that it's all guesswork, when I truly believe we have enough in the books without needing to make a guessing game out of it.

It's not like I'm just wildly guessing though. I really hope you don't imply this here. It is just, that we have different interpretations, which is fine, but for some reason you keep trying discredit mine.

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2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It's not like I'm just wildly guessing though. I really hope you don't imply this here. It is just, that we have different interpretations, which is fine, but for some reason you keep trying discredit mine.

Uhh… No, I was thinking you were saying it was all guesswork, yours and mine, because that's what theorizing is, and both of us are just disagreeing with each other, which isn't inherently impolite. This is getting kinda weirdly hostile, though, so I think that'll be it from me on this. Have a good one.

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Theorizing can be guesswork, but it isn't always and can be based on foundation. What we disagree on are the foundations our theories are based on. In a perfect world, we'd both work from the same foundation, but art can be interpreted differently, so its not as easy in this regard.

The question whether or not Adolin is in love with Shallan is one, that hasn't been definitely answered yet, so every answer for it is still theoretical. But that is enough meta discussion for now. Back to the topic at hand.

Edited by SLNC
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Personally, I feel like Shaladin is the way I would interpret the books. However, it will probably end up being Shadolin. We haven't yet seen in instance in Brandon's books where an arranged/political marriage fails. I don't think he would change this now. However, it would add potential plot points. One of my personal (and extremely unlikely) theories is that Shallan chooses Kaladin over Adolin, causing Adolin to go on a long journey of personal growth and by extension, Radianthood. 

Quote

Kaladin al'Thor

I noticed my last time reading Words of Radiance that there were several times-- vines that were on Adolin's shardblade as he summoned it. So I was wondering if maybe the Radiant who used it had was an Edgedancer?

Brandon Sanderson

You are right.

Kaladin al'Thor

You mentioned before that it would be possible to revive a dead shard[blade], but it would be very difficult--

Brandon Sanderson

Very difficult.

Kaladin al'Thor

Like I think what you said is that it would have to be the same person that broke the bond?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be the-- Yeah.

Kaladin al'Thor

So if it was an Edgedancer's blade if he made those same oaths could potentially he…

Brandon Sanderson

That would most likely not be enough. Something else would have to happen. Good guess though.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

and

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is Adolin going to be an Edgedancer?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's a RAFO.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

he doesn't explicitly deny it? But while I think there is a possibility of Adolin becoming Radiant, the circumstances above are likely not going to be the cause. 

Edited by BookishOcelot
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4 minutes ago, BookishOcelot said:

Please respect each other's opinions. Both are based on theorizing and small snippets of dialogue. Each has a chance to be correct. But please stop arguing. The reason the last Shakadolin thread was locked was for arguing like this. The topic this thread is supposed to be discussing is Kaladin's love life; post-Oathbringer. Not the basis of theorizing, though I think the mods would be fine with another thread discussing such. 

It wasn't me, that started talking about philosophy. I respect deacon's opinion/interpretation, that is a given and I don't think I have to repeat it every single time.

Edited by SLNC
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6 hours ago, Karger said:

My point is that Dalinar, Shallan, Adolin and Navani are people and that people express love differently.  Whatever Navani and Dalinar do registers on your love meter.  Adolin and Shallan do not.  According to Pattern it would be true for you to consider Adolin and Shallan to not be in love even if many of us would argue otherwise. 

Using this logic we can say that Adolin disgusts Shallan, because he expresses his disgust differently from other people and it looks like love in his case. Common psychology laws should remain the same in literature, and when the girl young man is theoretically in love with says "I want to marry you and rip your shirt off", when he was just about to lose her forever to another guy, he shouldn't reply "Are you sure? Are you really really sure? I mean, you have those other personas stuff and all... I don't know... Well, if you ask so..." He should say something about how happy and relieved he is. He should kiss her himself, not let her kiss him (for the second time already) and so on.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Besides, after all the talk about surface level attractions being a negative, I'm fine with him not having that thought in the text if it would just be taken as a sign that he only has a surface-level attraction to her.

All right, I can take that. I agree with a surface level attraction from Adolin.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

I mean, that's your take. I went from liking the idea of Kaladin/Shallan - or, Shalladin, yeah - in WoR to really being disenchanted with the idea of them in OB, based on how Brandon intentionally wrote them in this third book. In fact, in OB is when I got really upset at how Shallan thought about Kaladin. In my reading, she went from learning to try and understand Kaladin in WoR to OB where she just... really objectifies him, all that "ooh, he's so passionate and dark and stormy" (and it's even more stomach-turning when it's Veil thinking about Kaladin). In her POV, it's like... it's just so different from (1) how she interacted with him in WoR and (2) how I think about Kaladin. In OB, suddenly she was so shallow about how she thought about Kaladin, and it could have become so deep, but... Like, this is a progression of time. She catches herself thinking about Kaladin in OB and remembering their past connection, and then, no matter what the reasons are, decided to stop trying actually getting to know him. 

Well, her change in OB for Kaladin could be explained by pushing her feelings into Veil instead of Shallan, because of Helaran/Jasnah chastisement. Shallan as Shallan only thought about Kaladin once and it was not like "he is so dark and stormy", it was more like in WoR, I think, but whatever, I don't disagree with you here too, I just think (again) that there is a good explanation of it in Shallan's character.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

The thing is that both Kaladin and Shallan do think about the chasm scene in OB - but the chasm scene happened in WoR, and is a past event. I thought it was a great moment of connection for these two, a really meaningful, intimate scene. (Though if I'm being honest, no, I don't think it was the most romantic episode I've ever read - only one of Brandon's relationships hits my top ten list and that's the aforementioned main ship in Mistborn Era 2.) Kaladin and Shallan think so, too. It wasn't dropped in two lines of thinking at the end. It was being dropped over the course of every time they thought about each other. 

Like, personally? I was expecting - or at least hoping for - some scenes where they kept connecting in OB. I thought they might learn to understand each other more, in order to support each other and start a real friendship, if not more. But what happened was that even thought they had that one moment, it didn't continue. It wasn't a series of moments. From what Brandon gave us in OB, it was like... they had the potential to be more. They absolutely had the potential to be more, but every time, they didn't pursue it. I don't even think the reason why matters, because at the end of the day, they moved on, and it doesn't seem to be a trick. I think their interactions in OB were definitely trying to tell us something about Kaladin and Shallan, and that is even though they have the potential to be more, that doesn't mean they have to be more. They're given multiple opportunities to grow towards each other in OB. Multiple chances to talk, really talk, and try and support each other, but it doesn't happen. This is where my nice ideas of what they could have been hits the wall of what Brandon is telling us they'd be like - and we have a situation where they both have such a good starting connection point and neither of them choose to do anything about it. Apparently that's the kind of people they are.

I think Shallan was the biggest obstacle here - I think she could have chosen Kaladin if she really wanted to. But that scene at the end where Adolin gives her the opportunity to freely walk away from him with no hard feelings and go to Kaladin if she wants - even if he did it very clumsily - was the scene where I knew Brandon was shutting that door. That's the narrative way of saying given the real option, free of coercion, she still chose Adolin and like... okay, Brandon, alright, you're the boss. :P I'm okay with the idea of Adolin/Shallan in concept, same as Kaladin/Shallan, I just was annoyed by the whole situation, I guess. I don't have to love it to see that's what Brandon was doing.

It's possible that more may come of it later in a situation where for whatever reason Shallan and Adolin aren't together, and Kaladin and Shallan get together, but it's not because Adolin/Shallan was a mistake. If a canon Kaladin/Shallan happens, it has to take into account the things we learned about them in OB. What happened between them in OB was not an accident. It wasn't an oversight that they barely spoke, and when they spoke, it went badly. Clearly they weren't ready for what could have been right now, but I don't believe that means they must be together for it to be a resolution of this arc. What happened in OB was a resolution of that idea, it just resolved as a not-relationship.

Why Brandon decided to start it when this is the ending? God, I have no idea. I'd love to ask him if I thought he'd give an answer that isn't RAFO. I guess he thinks it'll be more clear to us when we have hindsight of later books.

All right, I understand. Looks like we kinda see the same things in the text, but make the different conclusions out of them. I would totally agree with your "they just decided not to develop their feelings" statement, if it was real life and not literature. In literature any plot line should have some purpose. What purpose did Shalladin have in SA? How did it serve their character development or overall plot? What were chasms written for? Kaladin hurt his leg, Shallan learned that Shattered Plains were symmetrical. I pretty much believe it could have been done in less than 5 chapters. Kaladin's perception of lighteyes? I don't think Shallan had a big influence on it, but whatever, let it be. Let chasms sequence stay, but remove romance from there. Let them go through it like friends and that's it. And what purpose did their romance have in OB? To dissociate Shallan further? Even if we forget the fact, that Brandon said he tweaked the romance into different personas thing only after beta read, it still doesn't explain Kaladin's involvement in it. Let Shallan be in love with him, but leave poor Kaladin alone. It is a Checkov gun. It was loaded and readied, but never fired. That's why I am so convinced about the subversion (not the only reason though, I'll repeat).

And the other fact is that, you say they decided not to interact, but that's not true. We know that they had at least three or even four dialogues that happened off screen - Thaylen flight, Kaladin's invitation into it, Shallan's talk to him about coming with him to Kholinar and possible flight to draw Urithiru. So the interactions were there, it's just Brandon who decided not to show them to us. So, for you OB reads like "Shallan and Kaladin started well in WoR, but decided not to continue in OB", and I read it like "Brandon has written the start of an amazing romance in WoR, but it was too early for it to manifest in OB, also Shallan has to make some mistakes, and Kaladin has to become a King so he put this on pause in order for it to come up later and finally serve the plot".

Actually, my theory is that Shallan's marriage with Adolin is the same thing character development wise as Kaladin's decision to participate in Elhokar's assassination. A mistake she made to realize it later and fix it. And mistake is not "I picked the wrong guy", the mistake is "I picked a guy to support me, when I have to be my own support". Again, it's a short thesis, I could explain it with much more details, I just don't want to make this post too big. It already is...

Oh, and please, PM me some of your top ten list, I would like to read it!

1 hour ago, deacon said:

I really think you ought to give his other books a read. It's all really good stuff, but maybe you'd benefit from seeing how little Brandon is focused on romances overall. They always come second to plot. Brandon has very complex overarching plots, but he's a very straightforward writer. He has fairly simple prose - which is something I like - but this also means he's more of a "what you see is what you get" type of person. Everything he's said in interviews says to me that Brandon considers the situation resolved as of the end of OB. 

I will, I've just discovered him recently, I am reading Mistborn already. But anyway, I still think, that I am reading this particular book. And I see an amazing chasm sequence there. I mean, I couldn't have written it myself. Shadolin - pfff, easily. I could've done better, than Shadolin, tbh (I'm not a writer, it's just how bad it looks in my opinion). So it seems to me in SA that i) Brandon can write a decent romance, ii) He pays enough attention to it. Again, in SA. Other books - no idea, only read Warbreaker. Romance was not stunning, but believable and nice. And much better, than Shadolin. Waaaay better.

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29 minutes ago, Sedside said:

All right, I understand. Looks like we kinda see the same things in the text, but make the different conclusions out of them. I would totally agree with your "they just decided not to develop their feelings" statement, if it was real life and not literature. In literature any plot line should have some purpose.

I kind of think that the brilliance of Sanderson is that he can find ways of including things that do not realy have an obvious purpose.  Instead they are just normal interactions between believable human beings.

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37 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Using this logic we can say that Adolin disgusts Shallan, because he expresses his disgust differently from other people and it looks like love in his case. Common psychology laws should remain the same in literature, and when the girl young man is theoretically in love with says "I want to marry you and rip your shirt off", when he was just about to lose her forever to another guy, he shouldn't reply "Are you sure? Are you really really sure? I mean, you have those other personas stuff and all... I don't know... Well, if you ask so..." He should say something about how happy and relieved he is. He should kiss her himself, not let her kiss him (for the second time already) and so on.

I guess I just disagree that it's common and that every young man has to react that way. I mean, I found Adolin's reaction really understandable. If I was with this amazing, cool woman, like I just couldn't believe that she was with ME, but I keep seeing her make eyes at one of my best friends, a friend I respect the hell out of... Yeah, tbh, I think I'd react the same way as Adolin did. Being completely crushed but trying to be good about it... Anyway, that's just my point - it's not universally accepted that Adolin did it believably or not believably. Some readers thought it was unbelievable, but other readers thought it was believable. I'm sure Brandon heard feedback of all kinds and is aware of the readers' majority thoughts.

Quote

All right, I understand. Looks like we kinda see the same things in the text, but make the different conclusions out of them. I would totally agree with your "they just decided not to develop their feelings" statement, if it was real life and not literature. In literature any plot line should have some purpose. What purpose did Shalladin have in SA? How did it serve their character development or overall plot? What were chasms written for? Kaladin hurt his leg, Shallan learned that Shattered Plains were symmetrical. I pretty much believe it could have been done in less than 5 chapters. Kaladin's perception of lighteyes? I don't think Shallan had a big influence on it, but whatever, let it be. Let chasms sequence stay, but remove romance from there. Let them go through it like friends and that's it. And what purpose did their romance have in OB? To dissociate Shallan further? Even if we forget the fact, that Brandon said he tweaked the romance into different personas thing only after beta read, it still doesn't explain Kaladin's involvement in it. Let Shallan be in love with him, but leave poor Kaladin alone. It is a Checkov gun. It was loaded and readied, but never fired. That's why I am so convinced about the subversion (not the only reason though, I'll repeat).

The purpose of it not being clear, I completely agree with you. I still think it's over and that Mr. Checkov's gun was disarmed and thrown away, but I don't know why it had to come up at all... I mean, literature is different from theater, and Checkov's Gun is only for stage direction, not novels. I see your point, though. The reason I'm thinking of right now is that it was important for them to connect in WoR, and then in OB, Shallan needed another option so that she had an out with Adolin if she wanted it and Kaladin needed to realize that he wanted a relationship. But maybe I'll change my mind when we see where their characters go in SA4.

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And the other fact is that, you say they decided not to interact, but that's not true. We know that they had at least three or even four dialogues that happened off screen - Thaylen flight, Kaladin's invitation into it, Shallan's talk to him about coming with him to Kholinar and possible flight to draw Urithiru. So the interactions were there, it's just Brandon who decided not to show them to us. So, for you OB reads like "Shallan and Kaladin started well in WoR, but decided not to continue in OB", and I read it like "Brandon has written the start of an amazing romance in WoR, but it was too early for it to manifest in OB, also Shallan has to make some mistakes, and Kaladin has to become a King so he put this on pause in order for it to come up later and finally serve the plot".

Actually, my theory is that Shallan's marriage with Adolin is the same thing character development wise as Kaladin's decision to participate in Elhokar's assassination. A mistake she made to realize it later and fix it. And mistake is not "I picked the wrong guy", the mistake is "I picked a guy to support me, when I have to be my own support". Again, it's a short thesis, I could explain it with much more details, I just don't want to make this post too big. It already is...

Ahh, I'll be more clear, my bad: I meant in terms of interacting beyond surface level conversation/banter. I think every part of their relationship - how they talked, how often they talked, how they thought about each other - was done completely intentionally. It doesn't read like how a great romance should go... It reads as "despite a great moment at the beginning, when we get into it, there's not a lot there". Will that continue in SA4? Maybe, but the only one who could convince me now is Brandon, and I know he's not going to ignore the characterization he gave us in OB. The way they acted isn't just a pause before something great - there's a problem in their relationship and it wasn't overcome in OB. The problem they have, that Brandon communicated in OB, is that they haven't actually made it to a point of really understanding each other. I don't think they really understand each other right now as it stands, and I would feel really robbed if SA4 goes there and pretends that what happened in OB was just a little stumble. 

And actually, I think I have to disagree with you about Shallan's lesson, now that this is coming up. Because her entire problem for like all the books is that she needs help but is refusing to ask for it. Like, that scene with Jasnah in Part Two? Where Shallan almost confesses what she's up to and asks for her help? But then she refuses to? Shallan's whole character is about her being in such a bad mental/emotional place that she's isolated and won't un-isolate herself. This is presented as a problem. In fact, her two problems set up at the beginning of OB are that she wants to be independent even though she knows she's not ready, and she's not being emotionally honest. By the end of OB and her emotional arc, she's admitted it's okay to be dependent (resuming her wardship with Jasnah) and was emotionally honest (telling Adolin the truth about... well, tons of stuff). The last thing she needs is to try and solve her problems all by herself, and I really think Brandon's setting up the completely opposite idea. 

Like you mentioned Kaladin's thing with deciding to try and kill Elhokar? That was explicitly written as bad in the text: he explicitly felt weird and guilty, and Syl was being damaged, and the readers always knew it was about him agreeing to help kill Elhokar. I felt sort of sick to my stomach when I read those bits. Maybe you get the same feeling when you think about the Shallan/Adolin marriage, but I don't think that's nearly as explicit as Kaladin's bad decision was. For Shallan, I feel sick to my stomach every time she decides to hide what she's doing and try and solve it by herself. (Can you tell I'm anxious about the Ghostbloods plotline??? God) So that's my emotional reasoning as to why I don't think the marriage thing is a mistake, or at least, definitely not that level of mistake.

Quote

Oh, and please, PM me some of your top ten list, I would like to read it!

Okay! I'll have to sit down and choose carefully now that my taste is on the line, ha ha!

Quote

I will, I've just discovered him recently, I am reading Mistborn already. But anyway, I still think, that I am reading this particular book. And I see an amazing chasm sequence there. I mean, I couldn't have written it myself. Shadolin - pfff, easily. I could've done better, than Shadolin, tbh (I'm not a writer, it's just how bad it looks in my opinion). So it seems to me in SA that i) Brandon can write a decent romance, ii) He pays enough attention to it. Again, in SA. Other books - no idea, only read Warbreaker. Romance was not stunning, but believable and nice. And much better, than Shadolin. Waaaay better.

Oh, nice. Yes, the Warbreaker romance was quite cute, but if you look at the sensibilities of the pairing, it's closer to Adolin/Shallan than Kaladin/Shallan. Seeing as most people I talk to think Adolin/Shallan was just as cute and believable and nice as his other main romances, I really can't believe he's going to change it. Like I said before, Brandon frequently goes for the nice, cute romance, and so far, this is no exception from his other works. Brandon also doesn't do triangles like ever, so I think that's why I have ambivalent feelings about the ships in Stormlight here, but when I actually compare the character types and how the romance progressed, you start to see the pattern.

Edited by deacon
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4 hours ago, deacon said:

So the subtext of all the scenes in OB where Adolin and Shallan like each other, care about each other, are consistently there for each other, move from being scared of losing the relationship in Part One to being honest with each other and affirming they want to be together in Parts Four and Five, and then getting married - these are all things that are romance-coded.

Oh, I haven't seen this on my first reply, I have to disagree with your "they decided to be together" part. It's Shallan who decided to be with Adolin, because she needed an anchor to her "Shallan" persona and also wanted to finally have sex.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

I guess I just disagree that it's common and that every young man has to react that way. I mean, I found Adolin's reaction really understandable. If I was with this amazing, cool woman, like I just couldn't believe that she was with ME, but I keep seeing her make eyes at one of my best friends, a friend I respect the hell out of... Yeah, tbh, I think I'd react the same way as Adolin did. Being completely crushed but trying to be good about it... Anyway, that's just my point - it's not universally accepted that Adolin did it believably or not believably. Some readers thought it was unbelievable, but other readers thought it was believable. I'm sure Brandon heard feedback of all kinds and is aware of the readers' majority thoughts.

Again, I'm not talking about Adolin trying to get out of relationship because of Kaladin. I'm talking about that part of dialogue, that came after her tirade of how much she loves him. Just try to imagine it. You are a young man, who is very much in love with a girl, but you see, that she obviously prefers another one. You are betrothed with her, but you have a feeling, that she is just sorry for you and doesn't really want you. So you decide to do the right thing and let her go. That's awesome! That's very respectful to her and yourself, I totally appreciate it and support this kind of decision. Then you go to her and say that. But in reply you hear, that you are wrong, she loves you so so much, she wants to rip your shirt off, and in the end she springs upon you with a passionate kiss.  How would you react, if you, I repeat, were an infatuated young man, who was geniunely concerned about her feelings for you and was about to make a tough decision and lose her? I would actually expect something like "Oh, storms, Shallan, I'm so happy! I could never believe you love me!" and probably expect him to kiss her back. But what do we see?

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“Are you … are you sure?” he asked. “I just … Don’t glare at me, Shallan. I have to say this. The world is full of gods and Heralds now, and you’re one of them. I’m practically a nobody. I’m not used to that feeling.”

“Then it’s probably the best thing that’s ever happened to you, Adolin Kholin. Well. Except for me.” She snuggled against him. “I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.”

“That’s worrisome, Shallan.”

“I won’t let her act on it. I promise.”

“I didn’t mean that,” Adolin said. “I meant … you, Shallan. Becoming other people.”

“We’re all different people at different times. Remember?”

“Not the same way as you.”

Where is happiness? Where is love? Where is relief? He continues searching for excuses. She continues convincing him she really really wants to marry him. Is this the guy that is genuinely in love? Well, you already said, that you think Adolin has shallow feelings for her, this episode just supports it. Shallow feelings and no desire to marry as well. He just wasn't too determined about it and let her persuade him, and I think his overall fear to disappoint his family played a big role here.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

The purpose of it not being clear, I completely agree with you. I still think it's over and that Mr. Checkov's gun was disarmed and thrown away, but I don't know why it had to come up at all... I mean, literature is different from theater, and Checkov's Gun is only for stage direction, not novels. I see your point, though. The reason I'm thinking of right now is that it was important for them to connect in WoR, and then in OB, Shallan needed another option so that she had an out with Adolin if she wanted it and Kaladin needed to realize that he wanted a relationship. But maybe I'll change my mind when we see where their characters go in SA4.

Fine, then we agree to RAFO it. Though I disagree with theater and literature differences. You really don't have to waste page time for something that doesn't serve any purpose. I think it's a law. Otherwise you should write about every character's visit to the privy. They do it, right? But writers don't write about it, unless it's somehow necessary to the plot, like Adolin's story about Shardplate, that served the purpose of showing, how crazy Shallan could be in a conversation and how Adolin loves to talk about his... emm... well, doesn't matter. Or Witcher spoilers:

Spoiler

when Geralt went to piss during that mages meeting and it was the whole reason why he was in a different place, when the following events happened.

And still it's just a little piece of text, not a whole plotline with a lot of page time that went nowhere.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Ahh, I'll be more clear, my bad: I meant in terms of interacting beyond surface level conversation/banter. I think every part of their relationship - how they talked, how often they talked, how they thought about each other - was done completely intentionally. It doesn't read like how a great romance should go... It reads as "despite a great moment at the beginning, when we get into it, there's not a lot there". Will that continue in SA4? Maybe, but the only one who could convince me now is Brandon, and I know he's not going to ignore the characterization he gave us in OB. The way they acted isn't just a pause before something great - there's a problem in their relationship and it wasn't overcome in OB. The problem they have, that Brandon communicated in OB, is that they haven't actually made it to a point of really understanding each other. I don't think they really understand each other right now as it stands, and I would feel really robbed if SA4 goes there and pretends that what happened in OB was just a little stumble. 

There is a very good and obvious reason for their shallow interactions in OB. She is betrothed! Kaladin just can't ignore this fact and start pursuing her more obvoiusly. They had three dialogues, one of them was amazing (smile, I need you to smile), one of them started pretty nice, but went astray because of their mental states, the third one was neutral. The whole OB Kaladin was watching Shallan flirting with Adolin before his eyes and listening to her mocking him. What did he have to do? Go tell her he loves her? All he could do was be nice with her and hope she would reply likewise. She didn't. He understood it and walked away. Why didn't she reply likewise? Because she fell apart. She became weaker in OB, so she picked the easier, safer option. She didn't want to confront her feelings, her fears, the society, Jasnah, Navani, everything she believed in during her life, she also decided, that Adolin will help her keep her Shallan persona anchored. It greatly contradicts her previous behaviour towards his overprotectiveness for her. But Shallan persona is the weakest one (I've found one more quote later, but not sure if it is all right to edit post after such a long time, even though noone actually replied to it), so she needed Adolin to keep her present, and "without him she fades". But Kaladin fell for her because of her strength. He thought "this woman was stronger than he'd ever been". She is not that woman anymore. She pushed her strength into Veil and Radiant, but being Veil and Radiant means to face the truth she spoken, and she can't.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

And actually, I think I have to disagree with you about Shallan's lesson, now that this is coming up. Because her entire problem for like all the books is that she needs help but is refusing to ask for it. Like, that scene with Jasnah in Part Two? Where Shallan almost confesses what she's up to and asks for her help? But then she refuses to? Shallan's whole character is about her being in such a bad mental/emotional place that she's isolated and won't un-isolate herself. This is presented as a problem. In fact, her two problems set up at the beginning of OB are that she wants to be independent even though she knows she's not ready, and she's not being emotionally honest. By the end of OB and her emotional arc, she's admitted it's okay to be dependent (resuming her wardship with Jasnah) and was emotionally honest (telling Adolin the truth about... well, tons of stuff). The last thing she needs is to try and solve her problems all by herself, and I really think Brandon's setting up the completely opposite idea. 

Ohhh, it seems like we read Shallan too differently then. She didn't ask for any help in WoR and was pretty much all right on her own. She was brilliant, actually, I loved her in WoR much more than I loved Kaladin. I don't think it's a good message at all - if you need help ask for it. I think it's a bad message, actually, every person has to learn to help themselves on their own. To be strong and independent. I think, Knights Radiant are kind of about it too. Wardship is not dependence. It's like the same as to say that being an employed worker is dependence. You can be dependent, of course, being an employee, but if you are a good specialist it's not so. And being a ward is the same - you learn from your superior, if they are willing to teach you. To be married or in a romantic relationship is also not equal being dependent. Two strong independent people can love each other and remain strong and independent, and that's another reason, I think, Kaladin and Shallan didn't yet get together. And will after they both deal with their issues on their own. Without asking for help outside and leaning on someone.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Like you mentioned Kaladin's thing with deciding to try and kill Elhokar? That was explicitly written as bad in the text: he explicitly felt weird and guilty, and Syl was being damaged, and the readers always knew it was about him agreeing to help kill Elhokar. I felt sort of sick to my stomach when I read those bits. Maybe you get the same feeling when you think about the Shallan/Adolin marriage, but I don't think that's nearly as explicit as Kaladin's bad decision was. For Shallan, I feel sick to my stomach every time she decides to hide what she's doing and try and solve it by herself. (Can you tell I'm anxious about the Ghostbloods plotline??? God) So that's my emotional reasoning as to why I don't think the marriage thing is a mistake, or at least, definitely not that level of mistake.

Yes, I felt sick, when Shallan decided to marry Adolin because "he knows her" and squeezed her hand on the right time. And because "without him she fades". I don't feel sick when the woman decides to do all by herself. It's good, when woman thinks she doesn't have to depend on a man. This woman is much more attractive to men, than the woman that depends on men and wants their help/emotional/financial support. Everyone can be weak, everyone can ask for help and hope for a sponsor. There is no value for me in such a character. What I would like to read is a strong woman, not this mess "I need his help and protection, oh, I'm a weak girl". Why I think marriage was a mistake, is that Adolin doesn't love her, but she selfishly glues to him to get his help. And as Kaladin felt nauseated for his decision to help kill Elhokar, Shallan would also feel the consequences of sticking to an indifferent man and luring him into marriage. He wouldn't magically start loving her in SA4, he wouldn't be that support to her, she wanted, because people get tired of supporting people they don't love, especially when all they want from you is that mentioned support, and it's free of charge. It's a vampiric behaviour, nobody loves vampires (Bella Swan doesn't count). So what I see as a lesson is that she would feel even more lonely in SA4, because Adolin would be cold and probably fool around with Tarah unfaithful, and Kaladin would be avoiding her, and also probably would have a relationship with Jasnah Rysn Jasnah another woman. So it would be like she had them both and she lost them both with her stupid decision. And she would understand, that this time noone is actually going to help her, because noone cares about weak people. And she would have to gather her nuts in her fist, remember her Ideals and become better Shallan, than she was in WoR. The real Shallan we heard so much about and want to see her finally.

I'm sorry, if I sound harsh, those are my feelings for Shallan, and not for you. I'm quite pissed with her after OB, so it's hard for me to stay calm, I don't mean to offend you in any way.

1 hour ago, deacon said:

Oh, nice. Yes, the Warbreaker romance was quite cute, but if you look at the sensibilities of the pairing, it's closer to Adolin/Shallan than Kaladin/Shallan. Seeing as most people I talk to think Adolin/Shallan was just as cute and believable and nice as his other main romances, I really can't believe he's going to change it. Like I said before, Brandon frequently goes for the nice, cute romance, and so far, this is no exception from his other works. Brandon also doesn't do triangles like ever, so I think that's why I have ambivalent feelings about the ships in Stormlight here, but when I actually compare the character types and how the romance progressed, you start to see the pattern.

Yeah, I agree, that it's closer to Adolin/Shallan totally, then to Kaladin/Shallan, but it's still much better, more believable, more genuine and so on. I read love from both sides of that romance, and the love is genuine from both sides, not that they both squeeze it out of themselves and pretend for it to be. Their relationship also had faced some obvious troubles, a lot of troubles and problems, and they had to overcome them. They even had some kind of fights and misunderstandings (a little, but still). Adolin and Shallan totally lack all of that from the very start. The first big problem they faced was "leering" at Kaladin and that almost ruined their marriage. The only reason they "overcame" this problem is that Shallan decided to glue to Adolin, and Adolin isn't determined enough and probably isn't proud enough to keep to his "decision".

Again, I don't find Adolin and Shallan cute. I find it deeply troubling, intentionally cheesy and totally unconvincing. They were railroaded from the start to "the end", never faced any real problems, that they had to solve. Adolin's relationship issues magically vanished. Sadeas magically vanished. Multiple personas are ok, fine, no problem. Leering at another guy is "don't worry, I won't do that again". All the problems, they faced, were solved by Shallan alone. I count not only Kaladin issue here, but also creation of Radiant, when Adolin decided to teach her sword despite her lack of desire, and Helaran reveal, when Adolin totally missed her breakdown on hearing it. I see the relationship of two selfish people, that only want to solve their own problems by this marriage, or to avoid responsibility, or to avoid fear, or whatever else. I don't see it like "I love him and I want to be with him", and "I love her and I want to be with her" (which is totally different from what I read in Warbreaker). I see it as "I'm so weak, that I need him to support me, so I will fool myself, as I've already been doing for my entire life, that I love him, and I will convince him to marry me", and "I can't keep a girl on my own, so I will let someone else choose a girl for me, I don't actually love her, because the only person I've ever loved in my life is myself, but I will generously marry her, if she wants it so much and will be on top in bed".

Edited by Sedside
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@Sedside I'm really tired and heading to bed soon, but all I can say is the more we dig in, the more I really think we're reading different books. The best to you. Have a good night.

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11 hours ago, SLNC said:

So, I'm not sure I completely understand you, because for me it looks like you're implying, that Adolin is like this, because he doesn't trust Shallan?

Not just Shallan.

But let's face it. Shallan gives nobody many reasons to trust her. She doesn't tell a man she intends to marry that she is a demigod, for practical purposes. What exactly do you expect him to do? And yes, he is a bit shallow in the department of relations with women. And he has been told from early youth onwards that his pool of potential brides is limited and it may come to him simply being ordered to marry. And for practical purposes he is getting a mail order bride - actually almost literally.

Such a man under such circumstances is not going to show infatuation typical of young western people.

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Not just Shallan.

But let's face it. Shallan gives nobody many reasons to trust her. She doesn't tell a man she intends to marry that she is a demigod, for practical purposes. What exactly do you expect him to do? And yes, he is a bit shallow in the department of relations with women. And he has been told from early youth onwards that his pool of potential brides is limited and it may come to him simply being ordered to marry. And for practical purposes he is getting a mail order bride - actually almost literally.

Such a man under such circumstances is not going to show infatuation typical of young western people.

Respectfully, this is a logical fallacy. To state that Adolin won't show infatuation typical of young western people because of his upbringing, while purporting that Shallan's "apparently western" signs of infatuation are valid implies selective reasoning, which is poor grounds for discussion. If we are to assume that the romance works for Shallan and Adolin because it is recognizable, then that same feature must apply to both parties. If it does not apply to one it does not apply to either. If Adolin doesn't express infatuation like "we westerners" would expect, then that means we don't know what romance actually looks like on Roshar, and therefore your argument is undermined because we therefore can't establish that Adolin and Shallan love each other because we don't know what that would look like.

I would argue that we do know what Rosharan love and romance look like. We have Dalinar and Navani. We have Sadeas and Ialai. These are both couples that were clearly in love given their highlights in the text, and both couples express that love very differently. When I look at Shallan and Kaladin, for example--I don't see "love". I also don't see "lust." I see two people who form a very intimate connection from which love could bloom. Shallan and Adolin, however, don't read as "love" to me either--Adolin just doesn't think of Shallan during his viewpoints, Adolin shows several signs that he's uncomfortable with her, and whenever things get deeply personal between them (which is rare), he deflects the discussion from that topic to something completely different or more surface-level. I believe he cares for her, but I don't believe he loves her. Shallan, on the other hand, I believe she might have come to love Adolin, but is so fragmented mentally that she can't realistically determine what she really wants. When two-thirds of a person lean one way and the other third has to force them to "fall in line," that doesn't scream to me that she loves Adolin, the phrase that comes to mind is "methinks she doth protest too much."

Further, it appears that you expect total honesty from Shallan, and use the fact that she does not  to excuse away any potential problems with Adolin's relationship from his standpoint--basically, you're placing the blame for any problems in the relationship on one person, and this is another fallacy. Relationships take two to work, and when there are problems, it's almost always because both people are at fault to some degree. And this is regardless of Shallan's Radiant status, her entire set up is making those around her trust her. That was the entire point of her going to the Shattered Plains in WoR, to convince the Kholins to trust her so that she could continue Jasnah's work. She didn't go for the marriage--that was a convenient side benefit that would help her family--she went to continue Jasnah's work posthumously. And considering how the Radiants were fairly universally reviled by Vorin culture, do you really blame her for hiding that fact? I don't. Adolin, it appears, didn't either, considering Radiance is something he's deeply envious of throughout Oathbringer.

That said, Shallan does keep some things hidden from Adolin. For example, that she's committed parenticide. That's...actually a pretty big deal. If she truly was in love with him and had his best interests at heart (as the return is spoken so often for Adolin as manifestation that he is truly in love with her), then why wouldn't she tell him that? Him telling her he murdered Sadeas was the perfect opening for her to reveal that bit of information. And yet, she stays silent. The obvious reason here is that she's afraid of him levaing, but if she truly loved him, wouldn't she want him to know what he was getting himself into? But then again, if we don't know what infatuation truly looks like on Roshar, then we don't actually know if she loves him, or he her, and we are therefore back to ground zero.

Now, back to the topic at hand (since for some reason any discussion of any member of ASK seems to involve the other two)...

Concerning Kaladin's love life, I am going to start off by saying I wholeheartedly disagree with anyone who tries to use his depression as a reason why he can't have a relationship. If you've never experienced chronic depression, or you're not a therapist or psychiatrist who sees people who experience it regularly, then sit down and shut up because you have no idea what you are talking about. Depressed people need reasons to keep going. Often times, our reasons are other people, and it's feeling isolated and alone that causes us to commit suicide.

Moving on from that, I really do think that narratively-wise, a relationship would be good for Kaladin. I don't think a casual, "drops into his lap" romance would benefit the plot--basically, you're taking a random NPC and making their entire purpose to be Kaladin's love interest, intermediate or final. That's narratively silly. So, no, I don't think Kaladin should settle down for some "nice darkeyed girl" or some "widow" who just needs a man to take care of her. I do think, however, that Kaladin needs someone who can show him the light. Who can say, "hey, you deserve happiness too. Maybe that's with me and maybe it's not, but you deserve happiness just as much as these other people."

Because really, that's Kaladin's biggest problem. He blames himself for his brother's--and everyone who's died under his protection's--deaths. He doesn't need a woman who will sacrifice herself to save him--that action would just get twisted in his head as another failure, another reason why he was worthless. He had this woman who loved him and he let her die. What he needs, is someone who can show him that the opposite is true. That it's not his fault. That he has worth as a person. Take, for example, some of his last few lines at the battle of Thaylen City:

Quote

Some people could celebrate despite the scars. Kaladin accepted that. He merely wished he knew how they did it.

“Kaladin?” Syl said. She wove around him as a ribbon of light. “Don’t feel bad. The Words have to come in their own time. You’ll be all right.”

“I always am.”

He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn’t be bitter. He didn’t feel resignation either. Instead he felt … agreement?

“No,” he said. “Her choice is made. You can see it.”

There are three key phrases here that indicate that his final acceptance is not born out of "not loving" Shallan, but rather that he feels he was never really worth it anyway (in other words, that his acceptance is born out of his depression, rather than a lack of interest):

1) Some people could celebrate despite the scars...He merely wished he knew how they did it.

2) "You'll be all right." "I always am."

3) "He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn't be bitter. He didn't feel resignation either. Instead he felt...agreement?

In quick succession, there are three alarming indicators of Kaladin's depression, and I'd like to expound on them one at a time.

First, not understanding how people celebrate when things are bad. People with depression--especially long term, chronic depression--have difficulty seeing hope. Life becomes about just making it through the day, just taking one more step, just one more. The thought process becomes one of "I can't do anything right, but as long as I can get as long as I can just do this one thing, I'm not giving up." They become unable to see the joy or the good in things because they are so entrapped within their world of gray that even the bright lights are dimmed by comparison.

Second, always being okay. Someone suffering from a chronic illness (be it depression or any other form of mental or physical illness) lives in a constant struggle. So long as they keep going, so long as they keep getting up when the fall or get knocked down, they are okay--because not being okay means admitting defeat. In the case of someone with depression (at least in the psychological mindset), not being okay means giving up. Accepting that life is just crap, or that they're too tired to continue on, or that their jaded worldview of their own lack of worth is the correct view, and that the world would either a) be better without them b ) wouldn't care if they disappeared, or c) isn't worth caring about any more. All three are very, very dangerous lines of thought, and the line "I'm always okay" is one I have said so often it's almost a mantra. "I'll be okay. Things aren't okay right now, but I'll be okay. I'm always okay, you don't have to worry about me."

Third, and this is probably the most subjectively contentious, is that this "agreement" he feels is not one of a lack of love for Shallan, as he later expresses to Syl, but rather that this agreement is a confirmation of his own worldview. He isn't bitter, because he was never really worth the attention. He isn't resigned, because her choice isn't a burden. She simply chose, and by choosing, proved to him that he wasn't worth the effort. And this isn't an idea I'm pulling out of my rear, either--since Way of Kings, Kaladin has struggled with a sense of worth, of believing that he had value. You see this at it's worst when he nearly gives up and throws himself into the honorchasm, where he believes that there's no point to continuing. His worldview at that point is so warped, that for a second he even thinks that Syl thinks he should commit suicide by bringing him the blackbane leaf. This is somewhat averted at the end of Way of Kings, where this is his final line:

Quote

 

Twenty-seven men lived. He’d finally managed to save someone.

For now, that was enough.

 

As someone who struggles with depression, this line was so profound. For once, I felt that someone had finally managed to truly depict what depression was actually like. Kaladin had a victory, one he desperately needed. And for now, that's enough.

But life isn't like a fairy tale. Life continues on past that victory, and depression wears away at the good feelings that victory brings with an insidious file. Eventually, Kaladin starts to revert to that same way of thinking, that same pattern of thought that life is a constant struggle and that he's just trying to get through. He has Bridge Four, but he's also responsible for them now and Dalinar is forcing him to place them at risk. Kaladin is a strong individual, and he keeps going, trying to do the right thing, but he does slip up again. The "wretch" returns in his cell. And that's one of the reasons why the Chasms scene with Shallan is so powerful for Kaladin! And I will let the scene speak for itself, because it is one of the most powerful scenes in all of Brandon's books.

Quote

 

“It’s not your fault,” Kaladin said. “I’d rather be like you. I’d rather not have lived the life I have. I would that the world was only full of people like you, Shallan Davar.”

“People who don’t understand pain.”

“Oh, all people understand pain,” Kaladin said. “That’s not what I’m talking about. It’s . . .”

“The sorrow,” Shallan said softly, “of watching a life crumble? Of struggling to grab it and hold on, but feeling hope become stringy sinew and blood beneath your fingers as everything collapses?”

“Yes.”

“The sensation—it’s not sorrow, but something deeper—of being broken. Of being crushed so often, and so hatefully, that emotion becomes something you can only wish for. If only you could cry, because then you’d feel something. Instead, you feel nothing. Just . . . haze and smoke inside. Like you’re already dead.”

He stopped in the chasm.

She turned and looked to him. “The crushing guilt,” she said, “of being powerless. Of wishing they’d hurt you instead of those around you. Of screaming and scrambling and hating as those you love are ruined, popped like a boil. And you have to watch their joy seeping away while you can’t do anything. They break the ones you love, and not you. And you plead. Can’t you just beat me instead?”

“Yes,” he whispered.

Shallan nodded, holding his eyes. “Yes. It would be nice if nobody in the world knew of those things, Kaladin Stormblessed. I agree. With everything I have.”

He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

“How?” he asked.

She shrugged lightly. “Helps if you’re crazy. Come on. I do believe we’re under a slight time constraint . . .”

She started down the chasm. He stood behind, feeling drained. And oddly brightened.

 

Now, to be clear, I think Kaladin fell for her a bit here. I also think, that this shows just why Kaladin needs someone in his life--not Bridge Four, someone who is intimate in his life, who knows his darkness and who can help him smile. Shallan does this, which is one reason I so adamantly support them together. However, for Kaladin it is not learning to accept sacrifice that is his next step, but rather I believe that his next step is to accept that, unlike Odium's insidious promise of taking the fault for wrongs committed, it's that Kaladin is not at fault for things that have happened--such as Tien's death. Such as the slaves that he gave hope to. Such as the hundreds of people whose lives he has made better just by virtue of being in them. Odium's promise is only a counterfeit mirror.

So, yes. I think Kaladin does need a love interest. I think he needs the intimacy of a deep relationship, and when I speak of intimacy, I'm not talking about sex--I'm talking of the deep, emotional connection that two people can share, the connection that bonds people together and shows them that they are important. I think he needs someone who can remind him that he is not the sum of his failures, but rather that people love him and admire him for the strength he has. Bridge Four, for all their love--they can't accomplish this. They have their own families, their own lives. They are his friends, but what will benefit Kaladin the most is someone a hell of a lot closer than friend.

Narratively, who could that be? I've already said that introducing a character for that purpose doesn't make sense from an authorial standpoint. It could perform the above, but it's a shallow way to do it. It works for side characters of less importance (see Breeze and Alrianne), but it doesn't work from a main character standpoint because, by default, that means that the author would have to spend time developing that relationship, turning that new character into someone more important to the plot by virtue of exposure. I've already indicated previously that I think Jasnah could be a good match for this process, and obviously I've encouraged the idea that a Shallan-Kaladin relationship is a good idea.

That said, who else could it be? I don't know. I don't think it would be Tarah--Tarah is someone from the past, and Kaladin's blaming himself for past failures is a huge part of his depression. Bringing back someone who would only remind him of those failures wouldn't be a great step forward in my opinion. That said, I do think that bringing Tarah back for closure, much like Laral was brought back for closure, would be a good idea, especially if it catalyzes Kaladin into accepting a situation where he can progress with someone else. As for who else it could be? Well, I don't know yet. By virtue of his narrative importance, I'm inclined to think it's someone we've already seen on screen to this point--but Lift isn't mature enough, mentally or age-wise. So we'll have to wait and see, but I think a relationship (notice I say relationship, not necessarily romance) is a very important step for Kaladin.

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6 hours ago, Alderant said:

Concerning Kaladin's love life, I am going to start off by saying I wholeheartedly disagree with anyone who tries to use his depression as a reason why he can't have a relationship. If you've never experienced chronic depression, or you're not a therapist or psychiatrist who sees people who experience it regularly, then sit down and shut up because you have no idea what you are talking about. Depressed people need reasons to keep going. Often times, our reasons are other people, and it's feeling isolated and alone that causes us to commit suicide.

Before I say anything on topic, thank you for this. I can't express how many times I have been frustrated with people who do not understand how insidious this problem is. It will not go away. It is not something that Kaladin will "get over." He can learn to cope with it, and he seems to be doing a bit better in this regard, but if his depression is why he can't be in a relationship, then he never will be. And I will fight tooth and nail against anyone who insists that it will "get better." That's unfortunately not how these things work. You can get better at dealing with it, but it doesn't go away.  I'm sorry you have to deal with it. 

The rest of this, while your post is what drew me back in, aren't directed at you. 

On topic, I do feel currently that Kaladin isn't fit for a romantic relationship, but that is because of two other issues, which while I suppose are tangentially related to his depression, are more problematic coping mechanisms. 

First, is his need for control. This has served him pretty well in his goals of protecting people, but Kal carries it well beyond healthy levels. He was initially startled at the idea of Bridge Four marrying and having children and living outside of the barracks, because that means it will be harder to watch over them. They aren't treated like his friends. They're treated like his children. His responsibilities. (as a side note, I think this specifically is what's holding him back from his Fourth oath.) 

In a romantic relationship this, combined with his tendency to take responsibility for things he had no part in... 

Second issue. That of him keeping himself separate. Kaladin shuts everyone out of his own thoughts and fears and emotions. He doesn't let anyone get close. Even in the chasm scene, that everyone holds up as a wonderful moment for him, he speaks of his past, but he carries on with the rote lies about how someone else killed the Shardbearer... Speaking by a script instead of being open and honest. 

There is not a single person, even Moash who Kaladin called his friend, who we've really seen Kaladin allow in. The closest thing he has to that is Syl, and that's a matter of the bond, not a choice. 

Kaladin does need a relationship to grow, and there are plenty available that he's neglected. A friendship. Because currently, he doesn't allow himself to even have that. There seems to be some promise there in his interactions with Adolin, but on the whole, Kaladin has fostered a wonderful environment for Bridge Four to build strong friendships while he watches from the sidelines like an over protective parent. 

He's currently not even a good friend. I'd like to see that he's capable of that before he pushes for something deeper. 

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17 hours ago, Sedside said:
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Where is happiness? Where is love? Where is relief? He continues searching for excuses. She continues convincing him she really really wants to marry him. Is this the guy that is genuinely in love? Well, you already said, that you think Adolin has shallow feelings for her, this episode just supports it. Shallow feelings and no desire to marry as well. He just wasn't too determined about it and let her persuade him, and I think his overall fear to disappoint his family played a big role here.

Or perhaps he is just coming to grips with the extent of her trauma and is expressing concern for her well-being?

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4 hours ago, Karger said:

Or perhaps he is just coming to grips with the extent of her trauma and is expressing concern for her well-being?

Or perhaps he just doesn't love her? Citing Adolin himself - "Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one". You have been creating so many different excuses to explain the fact that he shows no signs of love except for the easiest one - lack of love.

Besides, do you think it's impossible to show concern for someone's trauma and love at the same time? Couldn't Sanderson at least write Adolin kissing Shallan himself in the end, instead of asking her to kiss him again? Couldn't one of the lines be "Shallan, I'm so happy! But I'm worried about you"?

Edited by Sedside
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I think Jasnah and Kaladin maybe might have a future together.

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On 3/21/2019 at 9:47 PM, Trell said:

I think Jasnah and Kaladin maybe might have a future together.

The fact that Jasnah is a practical unmarried princesses in her midthirties who seems to be strangely apposed to marriage seem to go against that despite it sounding good.  Also she is much older then him.

On 3/21/2019 at 9:28 PM, Sedside said:

Or perhaps he just doesn't love her? Citing Adolin himself - "Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one". You have been creating so many different excuses to explain the fact that he shows no signs of love except for the easiest one - lack of love.

That does not seem fair.  Just because someone is not drooling over you every moment does not mean that they do not love you.  Adolin has shown many times that he admires, respects and yes even loves Shallan.  Just because he is not acting like a Shakespeare character about it does not mean his feelings for her are not real.  I feel that Adolin is entitled to be understated in how he expresses himself.  You can disagree and say that he does not love her but saying that he has shown no sign of love seems unfair.

Edited by Karger
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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

The fact that Jasnah is a practical unmarried princesses in her midthirties who seems to be strangely apposed to marriage seem to go against that despite it sounding good.  Also she is much older then him.

 

The reason I think that Kaladin and Jasnah have a future is because when they first meet, Kaladin acts like he did around Shallan, and Jasnah in turn. Also, age is a relative thing since Hoid is seen in Mistborn and Alloy of Law, which takes place 300 years later- in Shadesmar, which we know Jasnah can travel too, age isn't a thing.

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People age while in Shadesmar various people have ways of avoiding aging but that is not one of them.  Also if that relationship does happen it will be years down the line.

Edited by Karger
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@Alderant
Thank you for your post. I'm sorry you are going through this and I'm glad you are feeling better on some days. You are a good person that cares for even strangers online and your post is proof of that. Especially when you do it on a forum that people seem to misinterpret everything you say, it doesn't change the fact that your own personal intention is purely good.

I'll tell you now that I'm proof you are helping others by expressing your own pain, and you'll never know how many more people will read your words, even lurkers, in the future. You have affected people positively with this.

Now about Kaladin, depression and his love life, I feel it's very dangerous to even comment because of all the people relating and projecting unto his pain, I feel there is responsibility for even the smallest detail said here, but I'll try.

He needs help, from a person that will truly understand him. Logic dictates that will be an intimate relationship, to be understood so deeply, but maybe it doesn't necessarily needs to be a romantic one. (just like how in real life a therapist or a true friend isn't) - I'd personally want this to be Jasnah.

But whoever his romantic interest will be, they will have to understand him just as intimately, because it's a darkness that will always be there and they will need to fight it together during the times when it will resurface. It has to be someone that truly understands his internal agony and I'm definately sure Sanderson feels the responsibility of it, of making this character and bringing them in their right state of mind before this romance actually happens.

But first and foremost, the most important step is the next one. Kaladin needs to understand he needs help and seek it.

Edited by insert_anagram_here
bringing, not brining (typo)
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@Karger, now you are twisting about and exaggerating my arguments. Out of your own, I guess? I have never said Adolin should be drooling over Shallan or act like a Shakespeare character to convince me he is in love with her. I merely said that I would like to read at least ONE sign of love from his side in this last dialog. You say that Adolin showed a lot of signs of love, but you don't give me any quotes, and just insult me with your "wow" and "drooling over".

Edited by Sedside
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I agree that Kaladin needs intimate relationships and I would love for him to develop one with Jasnah.  I am simply skeptical about it being romantic.

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5 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree that Kaladin needs intimate relationships and I would love for him to develop one with Jasnah.  I am simply skeptical about it being romantic.

What other types of relationship are you implying?

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2 minutes ago, Sedside said:

you don't give me any quotes,

Their are a tonn o little moments throught OB.  Adolin kissing her before the fight with the fused outside the oathgate in shadesmar, Shallan being distracted from her illusions because Adolin is huging her intimately(and everyone else is pretending not to notice), Adolin giving her a massage and listening to her problems when she feels tense and is having a panic attack and lets not forget that Shallan thought that the knock on her door at the wedding day was Adolin seeking in to kiss her.  It is these little moments that sell their relationship to me and make it more believable then any dramatic profession of love.

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