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[OB] Kaladin's love life ?


Stromblessed

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I really can't see Jasnah being married off. Who would be stupid enough to even try?
Just like Kaladin wouldn't be willing to play this game.
Right now, I don't see them falling in love. I don't care about the age gap, they're both grown up and know what they're doing (Jasnah more so than Kal), but it would take a lot for them to come around and fall in love. I don't think it's impossible tho.

BTW, I don't play the "but they're straight!!11" game. I was convinced I was straight for the first twenty years of my life. Guess what.
Which doesn't mean I believe anyone of Adolin or Kaladin might be bi or fall for each other. I simply enjoy the occasional fanfic, because they are compatible in many ways.

Beside all that, I still like how OB was resolved.
I'm not saying Shallan and Adolin won't have problems, I bet they will, and I also do believe they rushed into the marriage. But that isn't unbelievable, as it might be the end of the world, and people tend to rush things when they believe there might not be much time left. This certainly was a factor in them getting married that fast.
I also don't think Kaladin is still in love with Shallan without realizing it. It was much the opposite: He thought he was, but it was not romantic attraction. Believe it or not, I can imagine something like this to happen. Not every "I like when she smiles" and "I feel better with her around" equals love.

Also, I think it's unfair to call Shallan a liar, manipulative b**** and what not. She has severe mental issues that manifest in a lot of ways. That doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to be with Adolin, who may not know everything about her, but he does know about her problems and he does want to help her through them.

Edited by Winds Alight
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Just throwing that out there, when exactly do you know that you are in love, it would be totally hypocritical to say that you know you're in love after a few conversations - which kaladin and shallan had - to say after that you're in love... well they never really had the chance to develop such a feeling - though the potential is definitely there...

And adolin... well - considering that shallan is the first woman who manages to keep his attention for more than 2 days... obviously he's interested but love really? I wouldn't be so sure about that - yeah he cares and she does obviously too - but things will get messy I guess. Too many secrets, too many problems too many unresolved issues... Love is a big word to use here and I'm not sure that's what it is ;p

Also for all the 'adolin sees her people' out there - he's not. Not really. Just one example that is somewhat of a keyscene:

Shallan clearly feeling shaken here and he's still pressing on - delusional to her feelings:

Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold her muscles tense. She was fighting the sensation... 'I mean the bridgeboy can have one, and he is darkeyed. Anyway it's not so different than that.' 'Thank you', she thought, 'for ranking every woman equally to peasants' but she held her tounge, this was obviously an important moment for him. He was trying to be broadminded, but thinking of what she'd done pained her - holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse, she wanted to hide but she couldn't. This truth refused to budge from her mind. 'You're right, but -' 'Great, great....'

And thus Shallans 3rd persona was created, not to mention that he never even realized it during their training although she was acting completely weird...

He does not 'see her' - he spent a lot of time with her and if you do that you realize sooner or later that something is wrong...

On the other hand kaladin at the palace scene had way better intuition on what she needed.

 

Sorry but I just love to discuss things :D

Edited by Void89
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I have a hunch Jasnah prefers the company of women over men. (Or will go that route along the way.)

 

Insofar as Kaladin is concerned I don't have any guesses until I see what happens with Tarah. But Tarah is the linchpin. Either together (I doubt it) or something he has to work past and still hasn't. I suppose you could say Tarah is my guess, just not sure they'll wind up together though.

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14 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

Also, I think it's unfair to call Shallan a liar, manipulative b**** and what not. She has severe mental issues that manifest in a lot of ways. That doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to be with Adolin, who may not know everything about her, but he does know about her problems and he does want to help her through them.

I think Shallan likes manipulating Adolin. [I'm thinking of when Shallan was relieved Adolin hadn't figured out her manipulation to get onto the Shattered Plains and her reaction to Dalinar when he learned she was a Radiant "But how will I fool people?"] Adolin is worried about her pretending to be other people and wants to help her. Shallan says she will work on it. But instead, Veil and Adolin become drinking buddies. And Shallan makes the note that they haven't been intimate yet. That sounds like a plan to keep Veil and a plan to make Adolin do things her way. I don't think Adolin is capable of standing his ground with Shallan. I think Shallan is happy that she can get Adolin to do whatever she wants. She got him to pretend Veil and Radiant are real and different people than her. As if she wasn't the person directing their every move.

I agree she has severe mental issues. I think she has trouble recognizing reality. Like when she wasn't sure her brothers were alive. She thought she might have imagined the spanreed conversations they had. I think not being able to recognize reality is a spectacular reason to not get married. :)

I was going to bring up Kaladin to try to keep this on topic, but I thought of more Shallan stuff. Shallan wants Adolin to see her a certain way. She talks about how she is always hiding how broken she is. She considers making Radiant his wife. She is relieved he doesn't see her drawing of Kaladin. And most important: She doesn't tell him about how she grew up. This says to me that she does not trust him. (I mean, what if he didn't want to marry her if he knew? This is what I think is running through Shallan's mind. I certainly think it is possible Adolin would want to marry her. I just don't think Shallan believes it.)

Finally, Kaladin is the best. Whoever he ends up with will like flying and they will fly together. That knocks Adolin out of contention. Shallan is still in! :)

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16 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

I'm not saying Shallan and Adolin won't have problems, I bet they will, and I also do believe they rushed into the marriage. But that isn't unbelievable, as it might be the end of the world, and people tend to rush things when they believe there might not be much time left. This certainly was a factor in them getting married that fast.

I don't buy it.

Shallan doesn't want to confront her issues and Adolin is too worried to mess up keeping a girlfriend/wife, that he'd ever challenge her. Just look at him always deferring to her telling her that she's the smart one etc. I'm afraid, that they will not talk about issues. They both don't want to. Adolin just accepting Shallan becoming Veil and actually exacerbating such behavior, as we know from Shallan that she plans to keep going with that, by going drinking with Veil is testament of that.

Also, if panic due to the Desolation being there was part of the decision, why didn't they marry immediately after the arrival of the Everstorm? Aside from this question, there is no textual evidence of panic being a factor for the rushed marriage.

16 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

I also don't think Kaladin is still in love with Shallan without realizing it. It was much the opposite: He thought he was, but it was not romantic attraction. Believe it or not, I can imagine something like this to happen. Not every "I like when she smiles" and "I feel better with her around" equals love.

People keep forgetting, that Kaladin still suffers from depression. Now, he is working on it, but he still has a lot of problems with self-esteem. I think, that this lack of self-esteem is a result of his tendency to always chastise himself, which also together with having a seasonal disorder (rain makes him depressed) is a big reason for his depression. How can you ever feel good about yourself, if you always beat yourself up about everything you do? If everything you do is not enough?

In short, I believe, that immediately from the first feelings for Shallan emerging, he represses them. He doesn't even try to pursue his feelings, because he's afraid of being disappointed. He doesn't believe him worthy of love. It began when he told himself, that Shallan and Adolin fit and this is the culmination of it. Syl is/was trying to make him see his true feelings, but he kept fighting it. Nothing has changed for Kaladin, he's just still fighting it.

Also, your two sentences in quotes. If that isn't what the basis of romance is, then I don't know what is. I'm sorry.

Edited by SLNC
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Touchè.

However, there she was a lot less insistent there. I think that is kind of indicative, including how that thing with the ardent was very focused on the sexual side of things. Also doesn't much affect the rest of what I said.

Edited by SLNC
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I bet (and hope) we gonna see a lot of Jasnah/Kaladin hot scenes in 4 and 5. Probably not overly romantic (or actually pretty romantic), and not because some first glance love, but because of their status now and situation they trapped in. The Elhokar's son, Gavinor, would play the huge role into bringing them together or clash their heads.

Just to take that possibility out immediately - i dont think Dalinar and Navani would play the role of Gavinor's parents. They had too much their own stuff to do and Gavinor would be the yonger generation characters business (Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan, Adolin). I also think Shallan and Adolin also has their own business. Only Kaladin and Jasnah left. He is directly connected to Gavinor and she is Gavinor's child free aunt.

Kaladin now is high-ranked light-eye Knight Radiant who has own lands and who (i guess) will take a huge part into the life of Elhokar's son, who in fact is the rightful heir to the throne. I dont think the last scene of OB where Kaladin's people brought Gavinor to Kaladin was done for nothing. It seems like symbolic scene and for Kaladin to protect Gavinor's interests would the matter of honor and duty in memory of Elhokar who he couldnt save.

And Jasnah is manipulative woman, named the Queen of Alethkar and Gavinor's aunt. I still can't see what her thoughts about nephew would be but id guess they would directly go against everything Kaladin want for him.

And then their different interests will clash and I'm so excited to see overprotective (or careless) aunt Jasnah and overprotective papa wolf Kaladin to bite each other asses over what they think would be the best for the poor Gavinor future.

I think thats what may bring them two together in a romantic way in the end of Book 4/5 and essentially make them a real couple to be a parents for Gavinor.

Edited by Harbour
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@Harbour Your post got me thinking. Even if Kaladin and Jasnah don’t go romantic, I’d totally love to see them work together in raising Gavinor. It’d be so funny to see them bickering whenever he’s not around, then when he shows up they stop bickering and work together to raise him and stuff.

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1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

Even if Kaladin and Jasnah don’t go romantic, I’d totally love to see them work together in raising Gavinor. It’d be so funny to see them bickering whenever he’s not around, then when he shows up they stop bickering and work together to raise him and stuff.

Ya, I think at minimum that's probably what we'll see initially. Since finishing OB, I've felt that Gavinor will be a likely catalyst to push Jasnah and Kaladin together a bit at least in terms of interaction. Based on their previous interactions, while they probably don't currently "like" each other, they probably "respect" each other. So they would probably not "choose" to interact much with each other given the option, but may be forced to when adding Gavinor into the equation.

As that happens that will obviously create situations where the two will probably talk about other things as well, and get to know each other better. Right now their views on things aren't aligned, and that will likely create some friction, but they will probably begin to see / notice things in the other person that they like / appreciate or even do something nice / helpful for the other unprompted, and under the assumption that Jasnah is heterosexual, natural human behavior will take over from there. Two single, attractive people of the opposite sex who are forced in close quarters with each other on a repetitive basis, even if it starts with initial dislike, will generally start to see the good in the other person and start to build emotional attachment due to familiarity / comfort and the aforementioned positives that may be gleaned from the interaction(s).

It's been noted how much Jasnah respects her uncle Dalinar, and we know how much Dalinar seems to like / trust / respect Kaladin (and even owes him his life). Given those things, it's not hard to imagine Jasnah eventually building up positive feelings toward Kaladin under those types of situations, and right now Kaladin probably sees Jasnah as an "ice queen" - she'll probably do some things that will make him think hmm, she's not as emotionless and uncaring as I thought.

What I think will happen is we'll start to see some chemistry between the two through the interactions they'll have; we'll read from their POVs and notice how their outlook on the other is seeming to change into more positive thoughts / feelings, and just thinking about the other person more, and then Tarah will come back into the picture for Kaladin creating some strife. I remember reading a snippet of an interview with Brandon Sanderson where someone asked him about romances and he had said something along the lines of wanting there to be "conflict" in the relationships.

Or I could be completely wrong about everything. Hah. Welcome to complete speculation on stories. :D

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She's about 10 years or so older though, even if i could imagine that kaladin might be drawn to her because she is attractive (men are wired that way sorry but that's the way it is) - I can't really imagine jasnah to see him as anything different than maybe a little brother. She just doesn't seem like a person who would be drawn to somebody that much younger - as her mother said - she was born 35 years old and it took just some time until her body cought up :D

 

Although I agree that we probably get at least some interesting conversations :D

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6 minutes ago, Void89 said:

She's about 10 years or so older though, even if i could imagine that kaladin might be drawn to her because she is attractive (men are wired that way sorry but that's the way it is) - I can't really imagine jasnah to see him as anything different than maybe a little brother. She just doesn't seem like a person who would be drawn to somebody that much younger - as her mother said - she was born 35 years old and it took just some time until her body cought up :D

 

Although I agree that we probably get at least some interesting conversations :D

I personally agree with @Razrback16 about this. I think that Jasnah, if she were open to the possibility of romance at all (and assuming she isn’t lesbian or asexual), would be pretty pragmatic about age. I doubt Kaladin would care much either.

Of course, maybe that’s just me pushing my opinion onto things, because big age gaps in relationships don’t bother me all that much. :P

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Romantic attraction completely aside, I'm IN for more Jasnah and Kaladin interaction.

I still find it almost unforgivable that Kaladin wasn't present when Jasnah roasted Amaram in OB. I mean. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IMAGINE HIS REACTION WHEN ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL WOMEN IN THE WORLD TALKS TO AMARAM LIKE THAT.

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18 hours ago, Calderis said:

Syl wanted him to be happy and have fun regardless of who with. 

I agree with this. But I think she pushed Kaladin toward Shallan so hard because she knew he had feelings for her. I think from the scene with the ardent (so the beginning of the book) all the way to the end of the book (when Shallan and Adolin are ready to get married) Syl was pushing Kaladin toward Shallan. That's a long time and a lot of consistency.

There was also the scene where Kaladin thinks his feelings are ganging up on him, telling him Tarah was right to leave him and he doesn't deserve love which I think supports @SLNC's point. Kaladin felt unworthy of Tarah and Shallan.

Jasnah is almost the only available woman in Kaladin's sphere. They would be okay, but I don't really want them to be a couple. I don't like Jasnah. I used to like her a lot in WOK but the more I read about her the more callous she seems. She is too trigger happy for me.

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She's probably the only one though who can help him with the 4th ideal - I still think it has something to do with accepting that you can't save everyone and have to let them go or even sacrifice some to protect the majority. And only somebody who doesn't gives a damnation about what society thinks is moral, somebody who makes him understand in a clinical straightforward way that you cant be everybody's saviour, like jasnah, could do that I guess.

Still - not really convinced they'll get all hot and naughty together, good solid friendship - sure, more..? Probably not :P

Edited by Void89
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Here's my take on the depression issue. 

Depression is not something that Kaladin will "get over" no matter how much he "works on it." That's not the way depression works. He may learn to cope. He may function better than he did prior (and he's doing remarkably well at the end of OB), but it will never go away.

He will always fight the wretch. He will always have feelings of inadequacy. If you honestly think that those are things he needs to "overcome" in order to persue and be successful in a relationship, then he's not going to ever be ready in your view. 

Depression is not an ailment to be "fixed." 

For both Jasnah and Kaladin, I would honestly prefer if they both remained single and were happy that way. The idea that romance is a requirement of happiness is... Problematic. 

With Jasnah, it consistently feels like people are saying "we have to pair her up with someone" and I find that rather repugnant. I think Jasnah is fantastic on her own, and would love to see her stay that way. 

With Kaladin it's much the same, though less pervasive and insistent. I think his issues with a relationship are much the same as his issues with the fourth oath. He wasn't ready for one, he isn't ready for the other.

I do agree that these two characters are exactly what is needed to temper each other. I don't think that requires a romantic relationship. 

Edited by Calderis
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I'll just go ahead and agree 100% with you, @Calderis

Mostly because I myself are constantly fighting other people (especially my family) insisting I need a romantic relationship in my life to be happy while I'm perfectly fine on my own, thank you very much.

Also, yeah, Kaladin has had clinical depression from a very young age on, way before The Bad Stuff happened to him, so he'll most likely, if not certainly (I'm absolutely not an expect on mental illnesses) have to deal with it - and sometimes fight it - for the rest of his life.
That doesn't mean he can never be happy, or content.
We see that at the end OB. He's not really content and far from happy, but he is more okay than I would have thought possible considering ... well, Kholinar and what happened there.

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1 hour ago, Winds Alight said:

I still find it almost unforgivable that Kaladin wasn't present when Jasnah roasted Amaram in OB. I mean. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IMAGINE HIS REACTION WHEN ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL WOMEN IN THE WORLD TALKS TO AMARAM LIKE THAT.

Agree completely with this. Kaladin should have been there - not to imply that Jasnah needed any help as she obviously handled it just fine, but had Kaladin been there, Amaram would never have even so much as had an opportunity to approach Jasnah. And it would have been cool for Jasnah to be there when Amaram died as well.

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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

For both Jasnah and Kaladin, I would honestly prefer if they both remained single and were happy that way. The idea that romance is a requirement of happiness is... Problematic. 

With Jasnah, it consistently feels like people are saying "we have to pair her up with someone" and I find that rather repugnant. I think Jasnah is fantastic on her own, and would love to see her stay that way. 

With Kaladin it's much the same, though less pervasive and insistent. I think his issues with a relationship are much the same as his issues with the fourth oath. He wasn't ready for one, he isn't ready for the other.

I do agree that these two characters are exactly what is needed to temper each other. I don't think that requires a romantic relationship. 

First, I would like to preface this by saying I completely agreed with the first part of your post. As someone who (possibly) suffers from depression, or at least something like it, I thank you for putting to words what I knew but couldn’t find the words for.

As for the relationship part of your post, I also agree with that. I do think that both Jasnah and Kaladin work really well as individual characters and could still grow and learn from each other, outside of a romantic relationship. However, while I don’t think this is necessary, I feel that they could get into a romantic relationship, if the circumstances were right. Neither of them needs to (which is what I believe you were upset or at least annoyed about), but I think it’d be nice if they did get into a relationship. It’d certainly provide an extra layer to their characters.

Ultimately, I do agree that they don’t require a relationship to temper each other, though I think it would help at least a little bit. And I think as long as people acknowledge the fact that neither of them needs to be in a relationship, it’s completely fine for people to be shipping them.

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58 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

First, I would like to preface this by saying I completely agreed with the first part of your post. As someone who (possibly) suffers from depression, or at least something like it, I thank you for putting to words what I knew but couldn’t find the words for.

As for the relationship part of your post, I also agree with that. I do think that both Jasnah and Kaladin work really well as individual characters and could still grow and learn from each other, outside of a romantic relationship. However, while I don’t think this is necessary, I feel that they could get into a romantic relationship, if the circumstances were right. Neither of them needs to (which is what I believe you were upset or at least annoyed about), but I think it’d be nice if they did get into a relationship. It’d certainly provide an extra layer to their characters.

Ultimately, I do agree that they don’t require a relationship to temper each other, though I think it would help at least a little bit. And I think as long as people acknowledge the fact that neither of them needs to be in a relationship, it’s completely fine for people to be shipping them.

Well-said. I also don't think either of them "requires" a relationship (no one does, really) - I just think it'd be great for both characters, and enjoyable to read.

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@Calderis

Alright, no one said that romance is a requirement for happiness. However, it can make people happier and we have a precedent with Tarah, that Kaladin once felt happy in a romantic relationship. I have no idea, why you're misconstruing the argument, that Syl wants Kaladin to be happy and pushes him toward someone, who might be a romantic prospect, into romance being a requirement of happiness...

Regarding your idea of depression and lowered self-esteem not getting better, I have to completely disagree. I have close family, that went through hell with depression and alcoholism, who indeed got better. The terminology you're using is very absolute. While it is true, that depression and it's effects aren't curable, they can be mitigated and partially be fixed. 

You are very much making it look like, that depressed people, that suffer feelings of inadequacy, are doomed to feel like that forever and I feel obligated to tell everyone, who reads this and is depressed, that there are ways to be helped with that. And yes, even those feelings of inadequacy can become better to the point of them not even being there anymore.

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36 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Alright, no one said that romance is a requirement for happiness. However, it can make people happier and we have a precedent with Tarah, that Kaladin once felt happy in a romantic relationship. I have no idea, why you're misconstruing the argument, that Syl wants Kaladin to be happy and pushes him toward someone, who might be a romantic prospect, into romance being a requirement of happiness...

I didn't say anyone said that. It's just the way that it's treated generally. 

36 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Regarding your idea of depression and lowered self-esteem not getting better, I have to completely disagree. I have close family, that went through hell with depression and alcoholism, who indeed got better. The terminology you're using is very absolute. While it is true, that depression and it's effects aren't curable, they can be mitigated and partially be fixed. 

You are very much making it look like, that depressed people, that suffer feelings of inadequacy, are doomed to feel like that forever and I feel obligated to tell everyone, who reads this and is depressed, that there are ways to be helped with that. And yes, even those feelings of inadequacy can become better to the point of them not even being there anymore.

First off. I did not say that it doesn't get better. I said that it never goes away. You learn to cope. You learn to recognize the signs of what is happening and deal with it. 

But it does not go away. It does not stop being a struggle. At least not without medication that has plenty of downsides in itself, that Rosharans have no access to. 

It does get better. If your lucky that's not even that hard because medication can balance your brain chemistry and have you completely functional without having to deal with any of it. From personal experience though, I will never guarantee anyone that hope of a magic pill because for some, and this is not uncommon, your personal chemistry does not mesh well with meds and you're left in a place where a dosage is either too low and ineffective, or too high and leaves you numb, which is no better than the problems it's meant to cure. 

For those of us who medication fails, you learn to recognize the symptoms. You learn to tell that little disgusting voice to storm off. You learn to find meaning in things that seem pointless and life becomes even more fulfilling because of the struggle. 

But I will never tell anyone that the problems go away. I will not lie to give false hope. It is a struggle, and it is worth it, and it will always be a factor no matter how well you learn to deal with it. But you will learn, and it will get better. 

But this? 

36 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And yes, even those feelings of inadequacy can become better to the point of them not even being there anymore.

Just because they recognize it and function in spite of them to the point that an outsider doesn't see them doesn't mean they're gone. That's not the way a chemical problem works. It's not conditioned.

That seeming lack of symptoms isn't a problem fixed. It's a triumph of will.

I'll pay far more respect to that accomplishment anyway. 

Edited by Calderis
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It seems like we have very different ideas of how depression can be handled. From my experience here in Germany, antidepressants aren't really seen as a fix (or "magic pill") for depression, but rather a support used while doing traditional therapy. Perhaps that is why.

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