[OB] Is Ash a Dustbringer?

[Seloun]

There's a passage near the end of the book that immediately bugged me from initial reading:

Quote

Skybreaker, Dalinar thought, counting them off. Edgedancer. That was seven.

He would have expected three more.

There, the Stormfather said. Behind your niece.

Two more people appeared in the shadow of the wall. A large, powerful man with an impressive physique, and a woman with long, dark hair. Their dark skin marked them as Makabaki, perhaps Azish, but their eyes were wrong.

...

Wait.

Those two only make nine, he thought to the Stormfather. Something told him there should be one more.

I don’t know. Perhaps they haven’t been found yet. Regardless, even with the bond you are just one man. Radiants are not immortal. How do you face this army?

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1142). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

The obvious interpretation is that there should be a representative of each of the Orders here. The KR that are represented for sure are:

Bondsmith - Dalinar

Windrunner - Kaladin

Skybreaker - Szeth

Edgedancer - Lift

Lightweaver - Shallan

Elsecaller - Jasnah

Truthwatcher - Renarin

These are the 7 Radiants Dalinar appears to be referring to, leaving Stoneward, Willshaper, and Dustbringer. Malata is pretty clearly not being counted here.

We know there's actually a 10th that Dalinar isn't aware of at the battle (Venli). So the question becomes: which slots do Venli, Taln and Ash fit?

(As an aside - I did consider the possibility that one of the existing KR are in the 'wrong spot', but the only candidate for which that seems potentially likely is Renarin; for this argument I'm going to neglect this as a likely possibility)

Taln seems pretty obviously the Stoneward. I think Venli is probably the Willshaper, as the spren she's bonded to doesn't look like what I'd imagine an 'ashspren' to look like, and she fits the epigraph description of Willshapers pretty well (though it also says Willshapers are pretty varied in the first place). So that leaves Ash.

While the most obvious Order to associate with Ash is Lightweavers, Shallan is already in that spot. We also know that most of the Heralds probably didn't join their own Orders:

Quote

Nin held out his empty left hand. A Shardblade appeared there, different and distinct from the Honorblade he carried in the other hand. “I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal. Though I was originally skeptical of the Radiants, I believe I am the only one who eventually joined his own order.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 988). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

The wording is interesting because Nale doesn't say that none of the other Heralds became KR, but specifically that they didn't join their own Order. While this also would technically disassociate Taln with Stonewards, Nale allows for room for not knowing about it, or (more likely) the Heralds that did join the KR (including Nale) probably did so after the last Desolation (which obviously would mean Taln didn't have an opportunity). That said, she's probably not actually bonded to a spren at this point given Baxil's interlude:

Quote

The mistress returned, hair somewhat disheveled. She held out a hand. “Padded mallet, Baxil. There’s a full statue back there.”

He responded, pulling the mallet out of the sack and handing it to her.

“Perhaps I should get myself a Shardblade,” she said absently, putting the tool up on her shoulder. “But that might make this too easy.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 709). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So presumably she doesn't actually have a Shardblade, but she thinks she could get one, which suggests she's not actively bonded (no Shardblade, but doesn't see any reason she couldn't use a dead one). I'm not sure if this would preclude her from having previously been bonded, however.

We also know that Ash's behavior is pretty destructive with regards to images of herself, as well demonstrated in pretty much every scene with her. This is quite anomalous from what we'd expect from Lightweaver behavior (artists) but fits pretty well with what seems to be pretty typical Dustbringer attitude.

Finally, her name is 'Ash'! Okay, so not really evidence, but it'd be rather ironically fitting.

So my hypothesis is that Ash is the Dustbringer representative - either she was one, or she's going to be the 'main' Dustbringer of the series.

The other possibilities are that it's not necessarily one of each Order (though it otherwise fits so well that it's hard to imagine otherwise) or Dalinar is looking for a pattern where there isn't one (obviously because she's not actually a Lightweaver...). It seems like an odd scene to throw in either of those cases, however.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

I had the same thought on all of the above but hadn’t had time to type it up yet.

I wonder what Jasnah will do with the two Heralds afterwards.

[Dryone_2]

3 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I had the same thought on all of the above but hadn’t had time to type it up yet.

I wonder what Jasnah will do with the two Heralds afterwards.

Milk them for information, what else? 

Also protect them, since apparently Odium now plans to end the heralds as a way to break free from the oathpact. He has some god metal for the knife and uses an unbonded human to do the deed. I guess he is prohibited to use his own to end a herald. Or maybe if he did they would just return to damnation. 

[Stromblessed]

Isn't it weird how Dalinar easily accepted Szeth without a word nor did he ever think of Malata ?

Also unrelated but , am I the only one who dislikes Malata and is glad she didn't get to be part of the Battle of Thaylen Field?

I know we don't know much about her , but even disregarding the fact that she is probably a traitor , she seems like a very dislikeable person

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 minutes ago, Stromblessed said:

Also unrelated but , am I the only one who dislikes Malata and is glad she didn't get to be part of the Battle of Thaylen Field?

She was probably too busy opening the Oathgate to Kholinar so voidbringers could attack Urithiru . Jasnah is going to murder her so dead when she finds out. Well, maybe they used the Honorblade, but maybe that was just misdirection and they used Malata anyways.

4 minutes ago, Stromblessed said:

Isn't it weird how Dalinar easily accepted Szeth without a word nor did he ever think of Malata ?

The chat between the 2 of them was the most missed thing of Ob for me. 

Its possible that Dalinar sort of trusted Szeth there and ignored Malata since the spren seem to draw the KR together. Jasnah said at some point in Wok or WoR that she thought the spren had brought her and Shallan together. Similarly Syl pushed Kaladin to save Dalinar in WoK, etc. Its possible when radiants mysteriously come together and work together it may be for the spren on the cognitive realm (when its not their own spren) that are pushing them together.

Of course it may be simpler. At that point Szeth was on the battlefield apparently fighting for them. Why look a gift horse on the mouth? And Malata was nowhere to be seen.  

Ash as a Dustbringer was definetely always on the cards, and from her pov in OB it probably suits her.

[Calderis]

At the end, Venli is thinking about how she was always striving towards new powers, and new knowledge. 

Willshapers crave novelty. 

[Stromblessed]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

She was probably too busy opening the Oathgate to Kholinar so voidbringers could attack Urithiru .  Well, maybe they used the Honorblade, but maybe that was just misdirection and they used Malata anyways.

The chat between the 2 of them was the most missed thing of Ob for me. 

Its possible that Dalinar sort of trusted Szeth there and ignored Malata since the spren seem to draw the KR together. 

Of course it may be simpler. At that point Szeth was on the battlefield apparently fighting for them. Why look a gift horse on the mouth? And Malata was nowhere to be seen.  

 

Doesn't Taravangian say (to himself ) that they stole the Honorblade to open the Oath gate ? Besides of they had used Malata then it would have raised obvious questions and Mr T still wouldn't be part of the coalition.

I guess Dalinar accepted Szeth because he seemed to fight on his side but still I too was looking forward to their conversation, especially since Szeth killed Gavilar. Their missing conversation is one of the things that make the finale look a bit too hurried . But then it is the Avalanche so I guess it's to be expected 

[WhiteLeeopard]

15 minutes ago, Stromblessed said:

Doesn't Taravangian say (to himself ) that they stole the Honorblade to open the Oath gate ? Besides of they had used Malata then it would have raised obvious questions and Mr T still wouldn't be part of the coalition.

 

Yes. However, T could just have stolen the Honorblade to pretend to open the Kholinar gate. Perception is as important as truth in this case. If the Honorblade was missing and an Oathgate opened everyone would assume it was the Honorblade. Otherwise people would have started asking which KR could have opened the portal. Who opened the Oathgate, the Honorblade or Malata may be irrelevant, so long as the good guys thought it had been the Honorblade.

The reaction to Szeth would have been funny all around. For Dalinar (Szeth killed Gavilar, and tried to kill Dalinar), for Kaladin (Kaladin killed him after Szeth tried to kill Dalinar, Adolin and did kill several of his men) for the coalition (Szeth killed several of their peers, including for the Thaylens some council members and for the Azish several emperors) etc. I hope we get that reaction someday .

Edited November 19, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Darvys]

I wonder if Szeth will play a role in unmasking Malata, she seems just bloodthirsty enough to react to Nightblood, funny also how her behavior, which would fit a traitorous spren, makes everyone else wary of her and diminishes her ability to harm their cause, even though restricting her to the portals ended up backfiring.

28 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The reaction to Szeth would have been funny all around. For Dalinar (Szeth killed Gavilar, and tried to kill Dalinar), for Kaladin (Kaladin killed him after Szeth tried to kill Dalinar, Adolin and did kill several of his men) for the coalition (Szeth killed several of their peers, including for the Thaylens some council members and for the Azish several emperors) etc. I hope we get that reaction someday .

Even funnier will be Szeth's stoic response to their outrage "I serve Dalinar Kholin, a man who knows truth ... Deal with it."

As for Ash, it was long speculated that she would be the main Dustbringer, Dalinar's momentary Ta'veren pull gives it more credit, but i've learned from Eshonai not to take things for granted, after all it was Taln who felt the need to reach Dalinar, not her.

[MistWit]

It does seem like having a member of each order would be perfect. Plus if she is a Dustbringer that would make a flashback for each order. I think it is much more likely that she is one than isn't. The only question is how. It could all be possible that she will become one although I think it fits better if she already is one.

[rjl]

I think maybe Ash is going to become a Dustbringer; it certainly makes sense based on the above points - I'd like to know what she did during the battle - she and Taln were there but we got none of her action - do they have spren at the moment? Do they have powers?

I'd also really like to understand more about Malata, is she bonded to a normal radiant Spren who is angry enough with humanity for the recreance to want to work with Odium? Or is there something else?

(That said the possibility that Malata is exactly that a Dustbringer on the other side seems quite plausible in light of the Skybreaker's decision)

Edited November 19, 2017 by rjl

[+Bliev]

Well Taln and Ash are definitely broken enough to become KR that’s for sure! I wonder if Szeth will retrieve their honorblades when he returns to “cleanse” the Shin lands? They could become dual wielders: true shardblades and honorblades. Which might make for some interesting power combinations!

[Leyrann]

7 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Well Taln and Ash are definitely broken enough to become KR that’s for sure! I wonder if Szeth will retrieve their honorblades when he returns to “cleanse” the Shin lands? They could become dual wielders: true shardblades and honorblades. Which might make for some interesting power combinations!

Well, if Ash becomes a Dustbringer, that would mean Division, Abrasion, Lightweaving and Soulcasting... Four Surges instead of the usual two. Would be very interesting.

[Kasimir]

19 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Well Taln and Ash are definitely broken enough to become KR that’s for sure! I wonder if Szeth will retrieve their honorblades when he returns to “cleanse” the Shin lands? They could become dual wielders: true shardblades and honorblades. Which might make for some interesting power combinations!

Not possible for Taln, surely? The Shin never had Taln's Honorblade, since Taln had been in Braize all the while. And speaking of which, we still don't know what became of Taln's Honorblade ever since it was taken from him... (Do we? I last recall all we knew was that Hoid hadn't taken it.)

[Jaconis]

1 hour ago, rjl said:

I think maybe Ash is going to become a Dustbringer; it certainly makes sense based on the above points - I'd like to know what she did during the battle - she and Taln were there but we got none of her action - do they have spren at the moment? Do they have powers?

I'd also really like to understand more about Malata, is she bonded to a normal radiant Spren who is angry enough with humanity for the recreance to want to work with Odium? Or is there something else?

(That said the possibility that Malata is exactly that a Dustbringer on the other side seems quite plausible in light of the Skybreaker's decision)

I think it’s interesting that the two orders who have members we see are fine with siding with Odium, or against someone who has called himself Unity, are the two that have access to the surge called Division. Coincidence?!

Probably...

To the main point I agree I think Ash will be or is already a Dustbringer. The OPs points are strong, but I’ll add another point not in the text but from what we know of the series as a whole. 

Each book so far has had a Knight radiant order symbol on the front of the books hardcover, as well as matching coloring. This has matched the flashback character for the respective book. Could be a coincidence that it works out so well for these first three, but let’s look at what the flashback characters are set to be, last I checked:

Kaladin (Windrunner)

Shallan (Lightweaver)

Dalinar (Bondsmith)

Eshonai (Willshaper, through proxy of Venli)

Szeth (Skybreaker)

Jasnah (Elsecallers)

Renarin (Truthwatchers)

Lift (Edgedancers)

Taln (Stonewards)

Ash

Before this book, I was confused because it seemed to line up well with an Order per flashback character, except for Ash. Now it would make sense. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Jaconis

[WhiteLeeopard]

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

I wonder if Szeth will play a role in unmasking Malata, she seems just bloodthirsty enough to react to Nightblood, funny also how her behavior, which would fit a traitorous spren, makes everyone else wary of her and diminishes her ability to harm their cause, even though restricting her to the portals ended up backfiring.

I hadn't thought of this yet, but you are right. Szeth walking around Urithiru with Nightblood is going to show the true colors of a lot of people . If Malata and some Diagramists go nuts when they get close to Nightblood it would be hilarious.

All of OB I thought that Malata's punishment should be for Szeth to kill her spren with Nightblood (we know this can happen via WoB) then kill her. After all, her spren seemed to be the one pushing her to be how she was and what she did. Why should only Malata be punished for it? Plus it would send a nice message. "If you serve Odium at least do it openly like the Skybreakers". I'm kind of bloodthirsty too .

I also think Ash will be the Dustbringer, at the very least its unlikely she will be a lightweaver. She seems to hate been worshipped and all the past that it represents. She can probably become many orders, but lightweaver will be the last. However, after Eshonai's death I'm not going to take anything for granted. We've been sure forever she was going to be our Willshaper, then, boom. Dead.

Edit: Why is it so many of these reputation titles are evil? Vanisher, Lord Prelan, Sons of Honor (almost flipped out when I had that one, but it was blessedly brief) 

Edited November 19, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Macro]

Hi all, new here. 

Bit confused about this topic. Looking at coppermind wiki and stormlight archive wiki, both say Shalash (Lightweaver Herald) is also called Ash.

But then this doesnt fit with Dalinar's 9 orders + Venli. Maybe she changes order; the millennia on Roshar changes her fundamentally and she makes new Dustbringer oaths? 

[Leyrann]

11 minutes ago, Macro said:

Hi all, new here. 

Bit confused about this topic. Looking at coppermind wiki and stormlight archive wiki, both say Shalash (Lightweaver Herald) is also called Ash.

But then this doesnt fit with Dalinar's 9 orders + Venli. Maybe she changes order; the millennia on Roshar changes her fundamentally and she makes new Dustbringer oaths? 

Originally, the Heralds were not actually members of the Orders, they were given their powers by the Honorblades, while the Knights Radiant get their powers from the spren bonds. According to Nale (the Herald with the Skybreaker Surges), he is the only one that had joined his own Order. This in itself leaves open the possibility that another Herald joined an Order that was not "their own", but even if that has not yet happened, it might happen later on the series; as long as someone isn't bonded, that person can technically bond any willing spren, no matter the Order that would mean. Partly because of Ash' destructive tendencies (destroying all art depicting her and stuff) this theory came into existence, and it would also be the easiest way to fit the "Ten Orders" where Dalinar counts them, as the only Order not in attendence (assuming Taln is a Stoneward) is the Dustbringers, while there are two "Lightweavers": Shallan and Ash.

Oh, and the nickname of "Ash" is generally considered a hint as well (knew I forgot something), as Dustbringers tend to leave ash behind.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Leyrann

[Fulminato]

On 19/11/2017 at 0:51 PM, Calderis said:

At the end, Venli is thinking about how she was always striving towards new powers, and new knowledge. 

Willshapers crave novelty. 

timber was following eshonai in the first place, eshonai the explorer. the death of eshonai and demid sacrificated for resurrecting a fused change her fundamentaly making possibile bonding timber

 

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Oh, and the nickname of "Ash" is generally considered a hint as well (knew I forgot something), as Dustbringers tend to leave ash behind.

malata call her spren 'ashspren'

Edited November 24, 2017 by Fulminato

[Subvisual Haze]

As of now we still know virtually nothing about the Dustbringers.  They're stereotyped by others as a bunch of crazy destruction-lovers and unfortunately Malata+Spark seem to fit that stereotype.  The two ruby (Dustbringer gem) records from the Urithiru gem archive in the epigraphs seem to suggest something completely different though.

Quote

"If this is to be permanent, then I wish to leave record of my husband and children. Wzmal, as good a man as any woman could dream of loving. Kmakra and Molinar, the true gemstones of my life." 12-15 Ruby

and

Quote

"Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants." 29-29 Ruby

 

[Watchcry]

On 11/19/2017 at 7:45 AM, Bliev said:

Well Taln and Ash are definitely broken enough to become KR that’s for sure! I wonder if Szeth will retrieve their honorblades when he returns to “cleanse” the Shin lands? They could become dual wielders: true shardblades and honorblades. Which might make for some interesting power combinations!

I don't think Dalinar will ever allow Szeth to attack and cleanse Shinovar. 

[rjl]

Just now, Watchcry said:

I don't think Dalinar will ever allow Szeth to attack and cleanse Shinovar. 

This bears further examination this line seems particularly relevant:

Oathbringer, us hardcover page 1104:

"All along," Szeth said, "this world belonged to the parshmen. My people watched not for the return of an invading enemy, but for the masters of the house."

 

[Khyrindor]

I think Dalinar assuming Ash is a new order was a bit lacking, without further explanation. He's counting off orders and notices them, then basically assumes that Ash is either Chana or Kalak (which doesn't make sense), which he shouldn't had done without either further explanation from the Stormfather, or talking to Ash.

I agree she must have switched orders for this all to make sense, unless Brandon made a huge mistake and forgot that Chana was the Herald for the Dustbringers. But yeah, something weird with the writing there.

[shawnhargreaves]

40 minutes ago, Rider of Storms said:

I think Dalinar assuming Ash is a new order was a bit lacking, without further explanation. He's counting off orders and notices them, then basically assumes that Ash is either Chana or Kalak

Why would he have assumed that?  At this point Dalinar has no idea who these people are - he's seen nothing to indicate they might be Heralds.   All he knows is that some strangers showed up out of nowhere, plus "There, the Stormfather said. Behind your niece".  Dalinar figures the Stormfather knows what he's talking about, in which case these strangers must represent two of the previously absent three orders.  And indeed, Stormfather probably does recognize exactly who these people are.

[Khyrindor]

1 minute ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Why would he have assumed that?  At this point Dalinar has no idea who these people are - he's seen nothing to indicate they might be Heralds.   All he knows is that some strangers showed up out of nowhere, plus "There, the Stormfather said. Behind your niece".  Dalinar figures the Stormfather knows what he's talking about, in which case these strangers must represent two of the previously absent three orders.  And indeed, Stormfather probably does recognize exactly who these people are.

He does know who Taln is, he's met him before. Plus the Stormfather doesn't even say they are new orders, and probably wouldn't know Ash is a proto Dustbringer. He only recognises them from long ago, when Ash would have been known as a Lightweaver.