demi

[OB] Realmatic Surges

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I like this, 

I think we might see the cognitive of either Gravitation or Adhesion or both, with Kaladin in how others are pulled toward him, or how he can easily form cohesive groups. Clarifying the Squires extra ability. 

 

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I like it a lot. Muse poiting out Kaladin's ability to form cohesive groups makes me wonder. We have seen that both windrunners and bondsmiths are capable of using a physical version of their surge, could each order be able to use their sugre physically, while differing orders alternate between the cognitive and spiritual versions of their surges, like potentially how lightweavers are good at spiritual transformation, while elsecallers are better at a cognitive form?

 

All of this reminds me of just how much I love surgebinding and why it is my favorite magic system ever.

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So based on a WoB about the Willshapers we know roughly what cohesion can do. Also I believe that we know the physical aspect for transportation can transport you into the cognitive realm.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223-words-of-radiance-seattle-signing/#e6061

Quote

The Willshapers have to have Cohesion, because Cohesion is the "grab something solid and melt it and push it in any direction you want..." it's the weak atomic force.

It's, you can take this and push your hand into it and leave a hand print, or things like that, and that's a Willshaper thing, not a Bondsmith thing.

 

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24 minutes ago, UpperNotch said:

So based on a WoB about the Willshapers we know roughly what cohesion can do. Also I believe that we know the physical aspect for transportation can transport you into the cognitive realm.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223-words-of-radiance-seattle-signing/#e6061

 

I think those may have gotten flipped since this WoB. Don't we see Dalinar in Oathbringer do pretty much exactly this - soften stone?

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6 minutes ago, Argent said:

I think those may have gotten flipped since this WoB. Don't we see Dalinar in Oathbringer do pretty much exactly this - soften stone?

Yes, I believe that in one of the visions a Stoneward makes hand holds in a cliff, and the Stormfather says that that is the other surge Dalinar can use.

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Okay, @Argent, so are we assuming that the Bonsmiths have the cohesion surge now? And that cohesion and tension switch places? Or did the power itself change and just the names stayed the same? I feel like if the names didn’t change it would make it confusing, as cohesion is usually used to mean the joining of two similar things, which would actually make a lot more sense that the bondsmiths should have cohesion as opposed to tension. 

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38 minutes ago, UpperNotch said:

Okay, @Argent, so are we assuming that the Bonsmiths have the cohesion surge now? And that cohesion and tension switch places? Or did the power itself change and just the names stayed the same? I feel like if the names didn’t change it would make it confusing, as cohesion is usually used to mean the joining of two similar things, which would actually make a lot more sense that the bondsmiths should have cohesion as opposed to tension. 

I don't know if we are assuming anything but to me Cohesion makes a little more sense for Bondsmiths. You have the metaphysical / Spiritual idea of binding things into a cohesive whole (which is obviously something at least one Bondsmith is pretty big about), and that feels more in line with some of the other Orders' Spiritual abilities (such as the Windrunners' tendency to attract lots of squires, or the Lightweavers' transformative effects on other humans). 

Again, just a hunch. The Ars Arcanum has been wrong before, and while my "evidence" is nowhere near conclusive, I would be neither upset nor surprised if Cohesion and Tension end up swapping either names or positions.

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10 hours ago, TheTigerKandra said:

I like it a lot. Muse poiting out Kaladin's ability to form cohesive groups makes me wonder. We have seen that both windrunners and bondsmiths are capable of using a physical version of their surge, could each order be able to use their sugre physically, while differing orders alternate between the cognitive and spiritual versions of their surges, like potentially how lightweavers are good at spiritual transformation, while elsecallers are better at a cognitive form?

This is a bit me trying to cobble together a thesis with a dearth of evidence, but I'm not convinced that the Physical Surge will be the jointly accessible one.

I would suggest that we've seen a great example of this split in the form of Shallan and Jasnah: while Jasnah is a force of nature on the battlefield, Soulcasting objects extremely casually (the Physical Surge of Transformation), Shallan has struggled with this since WoB. I think that Jasnah (and Elsecallers as a whole) would struggle with Spiritual Transformation.

Furthermore, when Dalinar enquires with the Stormfather about the Stoneward's  use of Tension, the Stormfather implies that he will never be able to do what he did (manipulating the cliffside into a set of stairs). 

Edited by demi
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I love this idea bit I think it can go further. The surges are inherently affected by the resonance of those also used by the surgebinder. Not only does each surge have effects on all three realms, but each order will manifest their ability to affect each realm differently because of resonance. 

For example, lets look at Transformation because we've had some academic dicsussion of it between Shallan and Jasnah.

On 11/19/2017 at 0:51 PM, demi said:

Transformation

  1. Physical: Utilize Stormlight to transform the spren of an object into another object (Soulcasting)
  2. Cognitive: Manipulate the spren of an object and force it to appear in the Cognitive Realm (Manifesting)
  3. Spiritual: Transform a person by giving them aspects of their most idealized Spiritual form. (No name, but performed by Shallan multiple times in WoR).

So I completely agree with your premise on there but I want to suggest that we need to further subdivide the surge between the Lightweavers and Elsecaller, because neither uses the surge in a vacuum - it is always impacted by the other surge they have access to.

I think it is important to acknowledge that whilst the outcome might be the same, the means by which the effect is achieved will likely be different. For example, Jasnah and Shallan discuss soulcasting from one element (air) to another (stone) towards the end of Part 5 after Jasnah collects Shallan from the field. She states you need to convince them in different ways - be rigid with air and command it, but be persuasive to stone (iirc). This is obviously true for Jasnah, but we have no evidence that Shallan would work in the same way. We have seen her obviously soulcast too infrequently and it is not clear that her method of persuasion when dealing with Stick was a failure because she was using the wrong method, because she was unpracticed, or because she held too little stormlight. 

I think this may be more clear when we look at manifestation. In the WoR prologue, Jasnah manifests part of the Kholinar palace in Shadesmar by commanding it. Shallan, on the other hand, seems to use a more persuasive tone when using manifestation. The end result is the same, but Shallan is instinctively less  authoritative than Jasnah (either as a consequence of her personality or as a consequence of using illumination rather than transportation) and may result in slight differences between their effectiveness.

Finally, I am unclear on how transformation of the spiritual realm would be possible for Jasnah - to me Shallan's "soul casting" (ie transforming a person's view of themself and aiming towards an ideal) is very much as reliant on her use of illumination as it is on her transformation. She uses "lies" (illusions) to highlight what a person is capable of being. Jasnah using transformation of the spiritual realm would likely be equally affected by her other surge (transportation) and thus I cannot see what the outcome could be. 

Another contrast we can see is between Truthwatchers and Lightweavers. Now unfortunately, because Renarin is not technically a proper Truthwtcher, we can't be sure that he uses his surges the way a "traditional" Truthwatcher might, but if we work with the idea that he uses the surges in a manner that is close enough to the traditional situation then we can hypothesize the following regarding illumination.

So we see Shallan create illusions - both for herself and for others. Renarin has particular difficulty with this - he uses progression much more readily. (As a side note, it seems clear to be that each order has a primary and a secondary surge - ie one they use more easily than the other). That being said, he does create an illusion of images of the future that it appears only he can see. He also seems to be present at a great many moments when others are having small self-revelations and it is possible that he "sees" their truths as illusions that are only visible to him. 

Shallan uses illusions to transform people's opinions of themselves - she uses lies to impact her men and others multiple times. Renarin, on the other hand, clearly uses progression-impacted illusions to achieve the same end when he heals Adolin (who sees an idealised version of himself). This is interesting - Shallan uses lies and Renarin uses truth but both ultimately end up transforming people into better versions of themselves - or at least give them an ideal to work towards. 

So, these are, somewhat minor points I suppose, given that the outcome is the same, but on the other hand, journey before destination.

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This is great and I fully support this idea. It’s something that’s been brewing in my mind for awhile (before OB), and I haven’t gotten a chance to write it down since we more or less got confirmation of it in OB. 

I second those above, and think a lot of Kaladin’s leadership skills are based on spiritual and/or cognitive adhesion and gravitation. At first we could have assumed it was a fluke, when he just did it with Bridge Four, but he’s shown repeatedly he can do it with disparate groups, with people he’s never met, and do it quickly. 

Likewise, I wonder if the “tugging” Shallan felt from Dalinar was an aspect of adhesion?

I feel like we need an entry from the Ars Arcanum about tension or cohesion, whichever Dalinar’s other surge is. I was expecting one in OB, since a Lightweaving one was added in WoR, but no such luck. 

Edited by Jaconis
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Hey y'all. Saw Brandon today and asked about this, and he said something to the effect of "Yeah, but it's not that tidy."

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15 hours ago, demi said:

Hey y'all. Saw Brandon today and asked about this, and he said something to the effect of "Yeah, but it's not that tidy."

Thanks! Do you have anything more specific? Phrasing is important...

As for the theory itself, my biggest issue is that classifying some of these things as Surges means they would require Stormlight, and I don't think we've seen that happen directly or consiously. Kaladin, for example, isn't using Stormlight all the time to keep his group together, and he's certainly not using it on purpose. When he was with the group; of singers in part one, he didn't even have access to Stormlight. So how exactly would it work?

Either way, I'd like to tweak and expand your list a bit, though I'm not saying it's true.

Adhesion

  1. Physical: Create a vacuum along the surface of an object, change the pressure of an area
  2. Cognitive: Make lots of disparate people start to view themselves as a group? Whatever Dalinar did at Thaylenah to bring the buildings back together (but that might be Tension).
  3. Spiritual: Create a connection to another person’s Spirit, so that you can comprehend their language.

Gravitation

  1. Physical: Basic and Reverse Lashings.
  2. Cognitive:
  3. Spiritual:

Division

Abrasion

  1. Physical: Change the friction coefficient of a target
  2. Cognitive: 
  3. Spiritual:

Progression

  1. Physical: accelerate the growth of plants (Growth)
  2. Cognitive: heals a person’s body so that it matches their own Cognitive Ideal of themselves (ReGrowth)
  3. Spiritual:

Illumination

  1. Physical: Create complex illusions, using a Connection as a base, and the manipulation of the electromagnetic and pressure waves.
  2. Cognitive:
  3. Spiritual: Remotely view events happening around Roshar (Shallan sketches an image of Szeth’s assassination of the King of Jah Keved, an image depicting “...a lavish room with a thick, ornamented rug, swords on the walls. A long dining table, set with a half eaten meal. And a dead man in fine clothing, laying face-first on the floor, blood pooling around him.”) This is presumably where the “Watch” in Truthwatcher comes from as well. 

Transformation

  1. Physical: Utilize Stormlight to transform the spren of an object into another object (Soulcasting)
  2. Cognitive: Manipulate the spren of an object and force it to appear in the Cognitive Realm (Manifesting)
  3. Spiritual: Transform a person by giving them aspects of their most idealized Spiritual form. (No name, but performed by Shallan multiple times in WoR).

Transportation      

  1. Physical: Change the a targets location and momentum
  2. Cognitive: Transition between Realms (Elsecalling)
  3. Spiritual: Transform a person by giving them aspects of their most idealized Spiritual form. (No name, but performed by Shallan multiple times in WoR).

Cohesion

  1.  Physical: Push and meld a target (from WoB)

Tension

  1. Physical: 
  2. Cognitive: Whatever Dalinar did at Thaylenah to bring the buildings back together (but that might be Adhesion).
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This is my headcanon too.  We've repeatedly seen Shallan in particular (and Kaladin to a lesser extent) do things that are clearly magical beyond what has been explained so far as the ability of their surges.  At first I thought this was due to the "extra special something" resonances, but we know what those are now for both Lightweavers and Windrunners, and they don't cover everything we have seen.  Being able to apply the surges in different Realms fits my understanding of Realmatics, and would open up great potential for existing characters to do interesting things in future books.

21 hours ago, DiamondMind said:

As for the theory itself, my biggest issue is that classifying some of these things as Surges means they would require Stormlight, and I don't think we've seen that happen directly or consiously. Kaladin, for example, isn't using Stormlight all the time to keep his group together, and he's certainly not using it on purpose.

It often seems possible for low level use of Cosmere magics to happen instinctively without an obvious power source.  For instance Kaladin, while in Amaram's army, appeared to be using an immature form of his abilities to fight unusually well, without ever obviously (at least consciously) sucking in Stormlight.  Similarly Vin at the start of Mistborn.

So I think it's very possible that characters are able to do the fairly minor things we have seen so far without obviously glowing first.  If so, after they learn what this is and how to control it, we can expect to see some truly amazing things happen!   "<X> is to Shallan improving people through drawing idealized versions of them, as flying through the air is to Kaladin being a slightly better than average spearman..."

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13 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

This is my headcanon too.  We've repeatedly seen Shallan in particular (and Kaladin to a lesser extent) do things that are clearly magical beyond what has been explained so far as the ability of their surges.  At first I thought this was due to the "extra special something" resonances, but we know what those are now for both Lightweavers and Windrunners, and they don't cover everything we have seen.  Being able to apply the surges in different Realms fits my understanding of Realmatics, and would open up great potential for existing characters to do interesting things in future books.

(Emphasis added) 

I would also like to mention that mixing surges is also a thing apparently, which would also account for some of the more dubious applications of surgebinding. Shallan mentions during the battle of Thaylenah that she is giving her illusions some substance by mixing the surges of illusion and transformation. Then we see Jasnah combine her surge of transportation with transformation to cause a soulcasting "virus".

So,

Soulcasting + illusions = Phantom Warriors

Soulcasting + Transportation = Soulcasting "Virus" 

Anyone got any others? I can't remember any other specific applications, but... maybe...

Reverse Lashing + Surge of Destruction = Black Hole?

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On 11/20/2017 at 4:28 AM, demi said:

Furthermore, when Dalinar enquires with the Stormfather about the Stoneward's  use of Tension, the Stormfather implies that he will never be able to do what he did (manipulating the cliffside into a set of stairs). 

Likewise, I believe Kaladin can't do what Dalinar did with adhesion. 

 

On 11/24/2017 at 4:05 AM, Varenus said:

(Emphasis added) 

I would also like to mention that mixing surges is also a thing apparently, which would also account for some of the more dubious applications of surgebinding. Shallan mentions during the battle of Thaylenah that she is giving her illusions some substance by mixing the surges of illusion and transformation. Then we see Jasnah combine her surge of transportation with transformation to cause a soulcasting "virus".

So,

Soulcasting + illusions = Phantom Warriors

Soulcasting + Transportation = Soulcasting "Virus" 

Anyone got any others? I can't remember any other specific applications, but... maybe...

Reverse Lashing + Surge of Destruction = Black Hole?

I think Renarin's unique situation will give him atium like abilities?

And perhaps Willshapers will be able to teleport like the Oathgates. 

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On 11/24/2017 at 4:05 AM, Varenus said:

Shallan mentions during the battle of Thaylenah that she is giving her illusions some substance by mixing the surges of illusion and transformation.

I think this was Jasnah's speculation, and it turned out wrong - or so she thought at the time. 

On 11/24/2017 at 4:05 AM, Varenus said:

Soulcasting + illusions = Phantom Warriors

It is important to note that a big reason this worked is because the Sadeas army, so deep in the Thrill, didn't really care they were fighting illusions, they just cared to fight someone. So it's arguable how much substance they had.

 

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On 11/20/2017 at 7:33 AM, Jaconis said:

Likewise, I wonder if the “tugging” Shallan felt from Dalinar was an aspect of adhesion?

I would more likely attribute this to Tension. Tension is the true and proper physicist's term for "tugging". If two people were connected by a spiritual 'string' then the force of tension would be the force working to bring them together, as in physical terms tension is a force working towards the other end of the 'string'.

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I really like this theory and I think we might have actually already seen the cognitive version of adhesion. Shallan at one point is able to lightweave a vision of Kholinar that was the Stormfather's impression of it through Dalinar. He had to physically touch her if I'm remembering correctly. Shallan also remarks that she can't project the map they use without Dalinar's presence and that the map itself was roughly correct but lacking intricate detail. I think it's plausible to say that she was drawing that map from Dalinar's internal mental map. He's spent most of his life poring over maps during war and would likely retain a basic idea of the land in his head. 

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On 11/22/2017 at 11:29 PM, DiamondMind said:

 

Illumination

  1. Physical: Create complex illusions, using a Connection as a base, and the manipulation of the electromagnetic and pressure waves.
  2. Cognitive:
  3. Spiritual: Remotely view events happening around Roshar (Shallan sketches an image of Szeth’s assassination of the King of Jah Keved, an image depicting “...a lavish room with a thick, ornamented rug, swords on the walls. A long dining table, set with a half eaten meal. And a dead man in fine clothing, laying face-first on the floor, blood pooling around him.”) This is presumably where the “Watch” in Truthwatcher comes from as well. 

 

Could Cognitive Illumination be something like, showing the truth? Maybe it could somehow highlight what other people are thinking (revealing lies), and cancelling out other kinds of illusory magic? 

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I suspect that cognitive illumination is to delusion as illusion is to hallucination. In other words, the power to influence or manipulate someones thoughts. I think we see this in her ability to influence people into acts that are seemingly against their nature - the redemption of her guardsmen for instance.

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3 hours ago, aemetha said:

I think we see this in her ability to influence people into acts that are seemingly against their nature - the redemption of her guardsmen for instance.

Thats a very interesting interpretation and definitely has some traction. I had thought she was seeing their "ideal selves" (Plato style - ie their spiritual aspects) and helping them see that self and therefore see a path to become that best person. I kind of wondered if that is why we see Adolin as the "perfect" person he seems to be from Shallan's perspective (also she is unreliable, but we don't need to go there here!) and why Kaladin "lightens" in her presence - I suspect it is not only that she "lightened" his mood, but that she made his burdens seem "lighter" too. They are both being exposed to her illumination/transformation and thus move towards a version of themselves that she sees in them (subconsciously). From what I understood from your post, you are implying that there is no "ideal" except what is in Shallan's head - would that be fair to say?

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I just think that the cognitive is the realm of thoughts and ideas, and those aren't static or immutable. When we make any kind of decision we do so with a whole host of options, usually several of which being options we can live with - in other words, valid options. I think cognitive illumination is like nudging a person towards an option that is in line with the goals of the surgebinder. It's not brainwashing, it would still need to be a choice the person would accept, it's just fine tuning that choice. To me that's a cognitive thing, not a spiritual thing. They are moving to an option that is beneficial to the surgebinder, not to an option that is more consistent with their spiritual idea of "greater good". Spiritual illumination may indeed involve helping a person to see the truth of themselves, but I don't think they are necessarily the same thing from what we've seen. For one thing, it seems very unlikely that an entire group of people would have the same truth of themselves to be shown that is also to the benefit of Shallan.

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29 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Spiritual illumination may indeed involve helping a person to see the truth of themselves, but I don't think they are necessarily the same thing from what we've seen. For one thing, it seems very unlikely that an entire group of people would have the same truth of themselves to be shown that is also to the benefit of Shallan.

Yes this makes sense. Indeed it might be that Renarin's "Truth"-watching may be more what I suggested for Shallan and hers is more what you suggest - a cognitive aspect rather than a spiritual one. That way their illumination is sufficiently different from each other to be interesting - and Shallan's can be more "deceitful" as per the cryptics love of lies and truth combined (and that those are subjective anyway),  but Renarin's could be more absolute - which might be partly why he can't use illumination like Shallan can.

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