[OB] Autism and the Kholins

[Argent]

As fascinating as this conversation is, perhaps we need to try to bring it back to The Stormlight Archive?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

27 minutes ago, Argent said:

As fascinating as this conversation is, perhaps we need to try to bring it back to The Stormlight Archive?

I feel like making sure we are viewing mental illness correctly through the lens of modern medicine, especially when it comes to cultural differences, is very relevant to the SA. 

Quote

PallonianFire

If a Shard were to heal the cracks in someone's spiritweb, like Sazed did with Spook, and that person who was getting healed has a Nahel bond, would that break the bond?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Nahel bond is already filling in those cracks, so you would have to rip it off to put something else in there.

PallonianFire

So it wouldn't really be-- the Shard wouldn't be able to heal--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the Shard-- Like, here's the thing we have to get at with this, what we're getting at, which is the question of, for instance, is Kaladin's depression a flaw in him that needs to be healed? And that is a question for philosophers. There are certainly people, cosmere and outside the cosmere, that say "Yes, this needs to be healed" and things like this. But what about somebody who's-- say, someone who is autistic, and their mind just works in a different way, and this way allows a certain bond to happen that couldn't otherwise happen? Is that a flaw, or is that-- is it a bug or a feature, to speak in coding terms? Is what's up with Kaladin a bug or a feature? I know that my wife would probably get rid of her depression if she could, but it's also been fundamental in how she sees the world and who she is, would that change her into a different person? And things like this. So, I want you when you discuss this, to be very careful about treating mental illness as a flaw as opposed to an aspect of a human personality that allows certain different things to happen. Does that make sense? *applause*

PallonianFire

The way I was sort of thinking, was, could Odium say, "Oh, I'm just going to fix this" and then you can't Surgebind anymore?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, right, yeah. If he-- if there w-- that is possible, but it would be hard to do without the consent of the person, but that is possible… You can fix somebody in a way that they didn't want to be fixed, and it would ruin things.

5

What Brandon is saying here kind of goes hand in hand with the discussion on how social stigmas can affect patient outcomes and internalized views of the disease. Without trying to disrespect your position as moderator, I feel like this is exactly the kind of discussion that Brandon would be wanting us to have in regards to the Stormlight Archives: trying to understand international cultural norms and their effects on mental illness, especially as it relates to how society treating it as a flaw is detrimental to those struggling with their personal burdens. 

I don't want to co-opt the thread, but at the same time, in the absence of any other discussions getting buried by this, I don't understand how it is a problem. But say the word and I'll withdraw. I just feel like this was the natural progression of the conversation. 

[Argent]

19 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I feel like making sure we are viewing mental illness correctly through the lens of modern medicine, especially when it comes to cultural differences, is very relevant to the SA. 

It's still relevant, I just want to make sure this doesn't turn into a conversation solely about mental illness - for the same of talking about mental illness. Carry on.

[aemetha]

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'd like to know what you mean specifically by calling someone disordered.

To be disordered is to demonstrate a pattern of thoughts and behaviours that is inconsistent with established norms, and which causes suffering or impairment to an individual to the extent that they need treatment to restore said patterns to the established order. Because norms vary by culture, a pattern of thoughts and behaviours considered disordered in one may not be considered so in another.

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I was very interested in how the social response to mental illness seems to have a large effect on whether the symptoms were positive or negative, is this possibly what you were getting at?

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at. If there is no impairment or distress, and society is accepting of the cluster of thoughts and behaviours, it's not really a disorder, because it is consistent with the expectations of the culture. That doesn't change the fact that physiologically there is a deviation from the norm. Neurologically the person is certainly disordered, but psychologically they are not suffering or impaired. The neurologist goes "This is structurally incorrect and should be corrected through treatment". The psychologist goes "This person isn't suffering, they aren't functionally impaired in their day to day lives. There is little to be gained by me treating this person, and they may in fact be harmed."

And as @Argent correctly points out, we need to move this back to the topic at hand, so I'll try and explain why I think this is relevant:

We are drawing parallels between what we know of mental disorder in our world, and what we know of investiture requiring a person to be broken in the cosmere. Whether characters meet the criteria for specific mental disorders in the real world or not, is not really a qualifier for that. Actually meeting the qualification for a real world disorder isn't a particularly good guide because it's contextual. What is considered in Roshar to be disordered behaviour is likely very different to what is in our world, and had they a system of classification like ours, Jasnah would likely fall into one because acceptance of behaviour noted as cold, distant, overly logical and heretical is far from universal in Roshar. In fact, it's noted on several occasions that Jasnah only gets away with her behaviour because of her high station. She isn't mad by our standards, but by the standards of the average Alethi she's absolutely bonkers. Past trauma broke her and altered her thoughts and behaviours to a pattern outside the established order of her world, like with every character broken in the cosmere.

Sorry, I know I'm not explaining this very well at all. It should also be noted that these issues remain contentious. Much of the medical community still embraces Cartesian dualism, while much of the psychological community embraces holistic explanations. A great many psychologists reject the concept of mental disorders entirely, and certain conditions such as schizophrenia are considered by them to be neurological rather than mental disorders. Those psychologists prefer to focus on "behaviour" rather than "symptoms". 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

The neurologist goes "This is structurally incorrect and should be corrected through treatment". The psychologist goes "This person isn't suffering, they aren't functionally impaired in their day to day lives. There is little to be gained by me treating this person, and they may in fact be harmed."

I still disagree here. The neurologist is only involved because there is already an impairment. Someone who does not feel impaired, or who has not presented symptoms that show they are a danger to themselves or others, don't seek treatment by a specialist. 

 

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

And as @Argent correctly points out, we need to move this back to the topic at hand, so I'll try and explain why I think this is relevant:

I still disagree, it's an old Speech and Debate habit that I try to make sure I understand something thoroughly before I discuss it. Brandon has obviously done tons of research into this, and discussions that get us to mirror that research is inherently relevant. It helps us better understand his work and the depth he puts into his writing. After our conversation, I have a new appreciation for this scene in particular:

Quote

“Your Highness…” Teshav said. “You can’t fight them all.”

“There’s nobody else.”

He turned to go. Shockingly, nobody called for him to stop.

All his life they’d done that. No, Renarin. That’s not for you. You can’t do that. You’re not well, Renarin. Be reasonable, Renarin.

He’d always been reasonable. He’d always listened. It felt wonderful and terrifying at once to know that nobody did that today. The spanreeds continued their scratching, moving on their own, oblivious to the moment.

Renarin stepped outside.

Terrified, he strode down the street, summoning Glys as a Shardblade. As he approached the ramp up to the Oathgate, the Fused descended. Four landed on the ramp before him, then gave him a gesture not unlike a salute, humming to a frantic tune he did not know. Renarin was so frightened, he worried he’d wet himself. Not very noble or brave, now was he?

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1182). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

2

 

I think it's a clear demonstration, especially given what we know of Dalinar's fathering growing up, of just how affected by the social stigma Renarin has been his whole life, and how validating a moment this is for him, even though he still is having difficulty internally and with his forced hallucinations. I think we can also see some parallels in this scene here:

Quote

“Hush,” Jasnah whispered. “We’ll find a way through it, Renarin. Whatever it is, we’ll fix it. We’ll survive this, somehow.”

Storms. The things he’d said about Dalinar …

“Jasnah,” Ivory said, becoming full size as he stepped free of her collar. He leaned down. “Jasnah, this is right. Somehow it is.” He seemed completely stunned. “It is not what makes sense, yet it is still right. How. How is this thing?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1132-1133). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

With the basis of perception for his magic, I think the rehabilitation of Renarin's spren will be based on the biopsychosocial model, and this is a clear demonstration of it. Jasnah is rejecting logic, her spren is accepting it as right. It's another reaffirming moment for Renarin, and it's going to eventually have a positive impact on Renarin's 'patient' outcome. 

The same can be said with Teft. From what I understand of modern research, support from those close to you is what work best for treating addiction, and Bridge Four is his support system and Kaladin says it best:

Quote

 “We lift the bridge together, Teft,” Kaladin said. “And we carry it.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1203-1204). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

1

 

[aemetha]

11 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I still disagree here. The neurologist is only involved because there is already an impairment. Someone who does not feel impaired, or who has not presented symptoms that show they are a danger to themselves or others, don't seek treatment by a specialist. 

That's fair enough, we don't have to agree, as I said the topic in general is contentious amongst experts in the fields. With regard to the second part here, my example of western approaches being detrimental to Maori in large part is because Maori were treated against their will. It gets murky, because defining someone as mentally disordered has historically been used as a justification to treat a person against their will. I agree, in most cases where a person has personally sought out treatment then there will be some kind of distress or impairment.

I certainly agree that Brandon has obviously done a lot of research into the subject. I think much of his research in this case is intended as a starting point though, not to mirror exactly what occurs in real life. Magic is tied into this which really throws a spanner in the works when trying to find direct comparisons.

[The Allomantic Metalhead]

I have Asperger's, and knew for a while (ever since BoM) that Steris was like me in that way, and I was beginning to suspect Jasnah, but I had no idea about Renarin. I am very glad to have people with my condition and ones like it represented. I only recently started Oathbringer.

[Morsk]

44 minutes ago, The Allomantic Metalhead said:

I have Asperger's, and knew for a while (ever since BoM) that Steris was like me in that way, and I was beginning to suspect Jasnah, but I had no idea about Renarin. I am very glad to have people with my condition and ones like it represented. I only recently started Oathbringer.

Resist the spoilers!

Anyway you reminded me of these two conflicting WoBs about Renarin and autism, I thought I'd link:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/227-rithmatist-denver-signing/#e7099

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/72-shadows-of-self-san-diego-signing/#e5714

It sounds like Brandon changed his mind, and is going to increase the portrayal of autism, but we haven't seen much yet. Steris has obvious difficulties; Renarin just gets called weird. There must be more, but we don't have enough time with him to see.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Morsk
... sigh, I can't figure out how to make the WoBs all pretty like other people do.

[animalia]

As someone with Asperger’s I can say that putting yourself in the other person position and thinking what would you do in it is a big part of it. I don’t think there’s anything unlogical about it. I think IF Jasnah does have Asperger’s there’s meaning in the fact that Renarin nodded to her before she stopped, it’s her thinking “if I was in his place I might want to die do.” Her refusing to kill him his BOTH her empathizing with him as well as showing her growth relating to her talk with Hoid. If she’s been wrong about the hods maybe she’s wrong here. It’s certainly worth taking a chance on. Sure there’s hope, but it’s a REALISTIC hope. And I’d even argue a logical one depending on how you look at it. After all some people look at the history books and only see the things that never change and see it as a source of cynicism, I perfer to see the things that HAVE changed, however slowly and look at it as a source of hope. It’s all a matter of perspective. But both are conclusions that you can get to logically.

 

Does this make sense?

[animalia]

I’d like to add to this with a link to a Tumblr post on Jasnah and Autism

https://myqueenjasnahkholin.tumblr.com/post/170352519803/autisticjasnah-masterpost/amp

While the post isn’t mine I hope it can revitalize the discussion

Since it’s difficult to acess the full post I will copy and paste what I can

 

Autistic!Jasnah: Masterpost 

Okaaay, so, as you might have guessed from the title, this post is a long list of reasons Jasnah Kholin is autistic af.  

The short version: Jasnah is autistic because I, a Known Autism, say so. Have a nice day. 

The long version (format): A long series of chronological quotes that all follow this pattern: Quote. *Insert ramble about why this is an Autistic Thing* *Possible and probable further ramble about why I’m emotional about that. 

That’s literally it, people. Buckle up, I’ve picked through all three books(yes all three) to compose this post for y’all. It’s not going to be short. 

To business: 

The Way Of Kings: 

Jasnah glanced at Shallan, noting her, then returned to her conversation.

Introducing Jasnah ‘I don’t have time for social niceties I’m busy’ Kholin. From the first interaction she’s…Bad at interacting. Iconic. 

“Then we shall do an evaluation. Answer truthfully and do not exaggerate, as I will soon discover your lies. Feign no false modesty, either. I haven’t the patience for a simperer.”

Jasnah is both blunt, direct, and honest in her speech as she is in her expectations from others. She doesn’t have the energy to deal with manipulation/lying/tarting up the truth to make it more socially acceptable bc she is a busy autistic lady with rust to do. (really, though, what she’s literally demanding here is the first rule of the autistic’s guide to easy conversation. Clear. Simple. To the point. To frills, no fuss.) 

 Jasnah didn’t argue further, and Shallan could see from her eyes that it was of no consequence to her if the king risked his life. The same apparently went for Shallan, for Jasnah didn’t order her away.

People do what people want to do and Jasnah doesn’t waste any time pretending she cares/that it matters to her for the sake of appearances. Again, this woman has a vendetta against typical social niceties and I love it. 

“Now?” the king said, cradling his granddaughter. “But we are going to have a feast—”

“I appreciate the offer,” Jasnah said, “but I find myself with an abundance of everything but time.”

Do I need to point out the lack of social niceties again or are y’all sensing a pattern at this point? *King lovingly embraces his darling granddaughter that Jasnah just saved and orders a feast prepared in her honour* Jasnah: ‘Thanks but no I’m too busy to socialise.’

Jasnah was also a rationalist, a woman with the audacity to deny the existence of the Almighty himself based on her own reasoning. Jasnah would appreciate strength, but only if it was shaped by logic.

Jasnah feelings>>>>>>logic. This is a fairly common theme, of Jasnah being ruled less by emotions/sentiment/societal pressures/expectations and much more by logic/her own reasoning. She has her own way of looking at the world, her own rules for how it works, and she won’t be swayed by anyone else’s opinions on how she should feel/behave. 

Jasnah turned to look out of the balcony into the dark space of the Veil. “I know what people say of me. I should hope that I am not as harsh as some say, though a woman could have far worse than a reputation for sternness. It can serve one well.”

Jasnah not being very self-aware in how people actually perceive her is also an autistic thing. Shallan notes several times that Jasnah is actually nowhere near as harsh/stern as she’s reputed to me, and, more importantly, she’s nowhere near as harsh/stern as she perceives herself to be. She also fails to note that Shallan actually enjoys the work/the challenge. This also implies that she takes what people say about her at face value and doesn’t have the necessary social skills to refute them. 

Shallan tried to judge Jasnah’s mood, but the older woman’s emotions were impossible to read. 

Again, this is a fairly common autistic trait. We struggle to read other people’s body language, but they often struggle to read ours as well. A part of this is probably Jasnah deliberately cultivating this kind of persona, but even so, she’s too unsure of how she comes across to have completely mastered this. 

Jasnah carefully removed its contents, neatly lining up the brushes, pencils, pens, jar of lacquer, ink, and solvent. She placed the stacks of paper, the notebooks, and the finished pictures in a line.

Oh look, it’s one of the world’s biggest Autism Stereotypes (which 

I’m totally guilty of too): lining all the things up neatly, and making them Orderly. 

At least with Jasnah one knew where one stood.

Jasnah of the straightforward, blunt honesty and ‘what you see is what you get’ strikes again. 

When Jasnah was deeply immersed in one of her projects, she often ignored all else.

And here we see the Autistic Jasnah in her natural habitat: hyperfixating on her special interest.

This much you should be able to easily see from the link. I will try to add at least a bit more that is harder to see.

       Jasnah had elegant handwriting, of course- Jasnah rarely did anything without taking the time to peerfect it.

Jasnah not doing anything unless done Properly and Right according to her? Also Jasnah being ndiffenr towards things she hasn't put any time into perfecting (such as drawing).

       "I always forgive curiosity, Your Majesty," Jasnah said. "It strikes me as one of the most genuine of emotions."

Again, Jasnah encouraging/reacting positively to to genuine/honest emotions because she doesnt Understand the whole guile/lying.not being honest thing because honestly what its the point?

Edited October 3, 2018 by animalia
added details and cleared up messy formar. If I want to add more I will do so in a different post

[Leyrann]

Very recognizable, as another autist.

(I only wish I had the hyperfocus version of autism though; instead I've been cursed with the always distracted version)

[animalia]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Very recognizable, as another autist.

(I only wish I had the hyperfocus version of autism though; instead I've been cursed with the always distracted version)

I seem to ping pong between the two.

[animalia]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Very recognizable, as another autist.

(I only wish I had the hyperfocus version of autism though; instead I've been cursed with the always distracted version)

I am updating my earlier post. I made it on my phone so it was wonky.

[animalia]

Hi I am back. I am not on my phone this time, but My PC, and as such once I found the page AGAIN, it was easier to copy and paste.

Here you go the whole thing in quotes

 

Quote

 

Autistic!Jasnah: Masterpost

Okaaay, so, as you might have guessed from the title, this post is a long list of reasons Jasnah Kholin is autistic af.  

The short version: Jasnah is autistic because I, a Known Autism, say so. Have a nice day.

The long version (format): A long series of chronological quotes that all follow this pattern: Quote. *Insert ramble about why this is an Autistic Thing* *Possible and probable further ramble about why I’m emotional about that.

That’s literally it, people. Buckle up, I’ve picked through all three books (yes all three) to compose this post for y’all. It’s not going to be short.

To business:

The Way of Kings:

 Jasnah glanced at Shallan, noting her, then returned to her conversation.

Introducing Jasnah ‘I don’t have time for social niceties I’m busy’ Kholin. From the first interaction she’s…Bad at interacting. Iconic.

“Then we shall do an evaluation. Answer truthfully and do not exaggerate, as I will soon discover your lies. Feign no false modesty, either. I haven’t the patience for a simperer.”

Jasnah is both blunt, direct, and honest in her speech as she is in her expectations from others. She doesn’t have the energy to deal with manipulation/lying/tarting up the truth to make it more socially acceptable bc she is a busy autistic lady with rust to do. (really, though, what she’s literally demanding here is the first rule of the autistic’s guide to easy conversation. Clear. Simple. To the point. To frills, no fuss.)

 Jasnah didn’t argue further, and Shallan could see from her eyes that it was of no consequence to her if the king risked his life. The same apparently went for Shallan, for Jasnah didn’t order her away.

People do what people want to do and Jasnah doesn’t waste any time pretending she cares/that it matters to her for the sake of appearances. Again, this woman has a vendetta against typical social niceties and I love it.

“Now?” the king said, cradling his granddaughter. “But we are going to have a feast—”

“I appreciate the offer,” Jasnah said, “but I find myself with an abundance of everything but time.”

Do I need to point out the lack of social niceties again or are y’all sensing a pattern at this point? *King lovingly embraces his darling granddaughter that Jasnah just saved and orders a feast prepared in her honour* Jasnah: ‘Thanks but no I’m too busy to socialise.’

Jasnah was also a rationalist, a woman with the audacity to deny the existence of the Almighty himself based on her own reasoning. Jasnah would appreciate strength, but only if it was shaped by logic.

Jasnah feelings>>>>>>logic. This is a fairly common theme, of Jasnah being ruled less by emotions/sentiment/societal pressures/expectations and much more by logic/her own reasoning. She has her own way of looking at the world, her own rules for how it works, and she won’t be swayed by anyone else’s opinions on how she should feel/behave.

Jasnah turned to look out of the balcony into the dark space of the Veil. “I know what people say of me. I should hope that I am not as harsh as some say, though a woman could have far worse than a reputation for sternness. It can serve one well.”

Jasnah not being very self-aware in how people actually perceive her is also an autistic thing. Shallan notes several times that Jasnah is actually nowhere near as harsh/stern as she’s reputed to me, and, more importantly, she’s nowhere near as harsh/stern as she perceives herself to be. She also fails to note that Shallan actually enjoys the work/the challenge. This also implies that she takes what people say about her at face value and doesn’t have the necessary social skills to refute them.

Shallan tried to judge Jasnah’s mood, but the older woman’s emotions were impossible to read. 

Again, this is a fairly common autistic trait. We struggle to read other people’s body language, but they often struggle to read ours as well. A part of this is probably Jasnah deliberately cultivating this kind of persona, but even so, she’s too unsure of how she comes across to have completely mastered this.

Jasnah carefully removed its contents, neatly lining up the brushes, pencils, pens, jar of lacquer, ink, and solvent. She placed the stacks of paper, the notebooks, and the finished pictures in a line.

Oh look, it’s one of the world’s biggest Autism Stereotypes (which I’m totally guilty of too): lining all the things up neatly, and making them Orderly.

At least with Jasnah one knew where one stood.

Jasnah of the straightforward, blunt honesty and ‘what you see is what you get’ strikes again.

When Jasnah was deeply immersed in one of her projects, she often ignored all else.

And here we see the Autistic Jasnah in her natural habitat: hyperfixating on her special interest.

The rest is under the cut for length! 

Jasnah had elegant handwriting, of course—Jasnah rarely did anything without taking the time to perfect it. 

Jasnah not doing anything unless it’s done Properly and Right according to her? Also Jasnah being indifferent towards things she hasn’t put any time into perfecting (such as drawing).

“I always forgive curiosity, Your Majesty,” Jasnah said. “It strikes me as one of the most genuine of emotions.”

Again, Jasnah encouraging/reacting positively to genuine/honest emotions because she doesn’t Understand the whole guile/lying/not being honest thing because honestly what is the point?

“Must someone, some unseen thing, declare what is right for it to be right? I believe that my own morality—which answers only to my heart—is more sure and true than the morality of those who do right only because they fear retribution.”

Honestly, just, this whole thing. For a start it’s a massive transgression of the Vorin social norms/expectations, especially for Jasnah as a prominent public figure as the sister to the king. For another it’s that internal rules thing again. Jasnah’s world operates according to Jasnah’s principles and Jasnah’s understanding of it, no-one else’s.

But Shallan had caught a handful of occasions, mostly when Jasnah had been distracted, and had apparently forgotten she wasn’t alone.

*Jasnah ignores social expectations so hard she literally forgets other people exist in the world* Also, again, the hyperfixation on special interest.

“And yet, those men are off the street. The people of this city are that much safer. The issue that Taravangian has been so worried about has been solved, and no more theatergoers will fall to those thugs. How many lives did I just save?”

“I know how many you just took,” Shallan said.

Jasnah has a habit of doing this, this very cold, calculated, logical and pragmatic way of seeing the world as well as morality. Shallan considers the lives taken, the emotional aspect of the moral dilemma, the horror of murder. Jasnah just sees it almost as statistics, as four lives taken to save many more. Shallan also focuses on the cold hard facts of ‘I know how many people you just killed’ while Jasnah is engaged in weighing up the probability of how many she just saved. (In theory, the thugs might never have attacked anyone again, so Jasnah might not have saved anyone by her actions, which I think is what Shallan is getting at here. But that’s just…A moot point as far as Jasnah is concerned)

This is also an example of her black and white thinking. There’s more net good in what she did than there is net bad. That’s where her questioning/reasoning stops because it makes sense to her. Shallan exists in the grey area, but I don’t think Jasnah even sees it in cases like this.

But it wasn’t the act itself so much as the cold callousness of it that bothered her.

This is an interesting one, and something I’ll talk about more a bit later, probably, but the way Jasnah comes across vs how she actually is. I totally get why Shallan views what she did as cold and callous, and in a way I suppose it was. It was fully planned and fully intentional. But I think for her it’s this kind of…separation between logic and sentiment. I think Jasnah feels very strongly and very deeply, but she doesn’t often display that to other people, and I also think she believes there’s a time and a place for that. Also, black and white thinking again. It comes off as cold to Shallan, but for Jasnah I think it feels more like common sense.

“You only needed to kill one of them.”

“No, I didn’t,” Jasnah said.

“Why? They would have been too frightened to do something like that again.”

“You don’t know that. I sincerely wanted those men gone. A careless barmaid walking home the wrong way cannot protect herself, but I can. And I will.”

Again, black and white thinking. (I’m also surprised this moment doesn’t generate more Discourse…Or maybe it does, I’ve just avoided it, either way) This is both a case for Jasnah not being able to predict people’s responses/behaviours, and also black and white thinking/internal rules at play. As far as she’s concerned those men are criminals. She has no assurances that they won’t hurt anyone else again. They’re already criminals, and there’s no chance for redemption or leeway, here. She’s made up her mind. They’re all criminals. They’re all dangerous. They all die.

Jasnah closed her eyes again, handing the brush toward Shallan. “Fifty strokes tonight, Shallan. It has been a fatiguing day.”

A)- routines the ‘tonight’ and the familiarity of this implies it’s something that happens every night. And the ‘fifty strokes’ is either another routine related thing, or an internal rule thing. Either way. Also this is probably a stim thing, since she’s using it to relax/de-stress.

Jasnah tapped her desktop with a fingernail.

Stimming.

“Brightness Jasnah does NOT like people entering her room. The maids have been told not to clean in there.” The king had promised that his maids were very carefully chosen, and there had never been issues of theft, but Jasnah still insisted that none enter her bedchamber.

Definitely, definitely, definitely an autistic thing. Issues with people entering Your Spaces or touching Your Things is a big autistic thing. (especially because the assurances about thieving don’t change her mind) Also the emphasis on not as in ‘this is a thing one absolutely does not do unless one wishes to die’.

“She’d believe me,” Shallan said. “She thinks she’s far more demanding than she is. Or…well, she is demanding. I just don’t mind as much as she thinks I do.”

Again, Jasnah taking what people say of her/how they say they perceive her at face value, and also lack of self-awareness in how people actually respond to her.

Jasnah regarded Shallan, face stiff, impassive. “I have been told that my tutelage is demanding, perhaps harsh. This is one reason why I often refuse to take wards.”

“I apologize for my weakness, Brightness,” Shallan said, looking down.

Jasnah seemed displeased. “I did not mean to suggest fault in you, child. I was attempting the opposite. Unfortunately I’m…unaccustomed to such behavior.”

Two things here: one, I’m like, 99% certain that Jasnah, who has been camped out at the hospital all this time waiting for Shallan to wake up is feeling anything but ‘impassive’ at this moment, in which case this is an example of her body language/facial expressions not matching up properly to her actual internal feelings, which is fairly common. And two: Jasnah’s apology being taken for a rebuttal and her obvious displeasure at it coming across that way when she literally intended the opposite (been there).

Also her general air of uncertainty/discomfort in this setting, which is one that’s obviously social/emotional. Also the fact that she pins her poor apology on lack of practice/familiarity with these kinds of interactions when, in theory, these kinds of things should come naturally to people. So like, lil bit of hinting/implication of scripting social things her, which I think her initial words reek of as well, as she’s said similar things before.

“You make it sound as if you were waiting out there.”

Jasnah didn’t reply.

“But your research!”

“Can be done in the hospital waiting chamber.” She hesitated. “It has been somewhat difficult for me to focus these last few days.”

“Jasnah! That’s quite nearly HUMAN of you!”

Again, a few things here, firstly that Jasnah is othered in a way by Shallan (and this isn’t the only time this happens, either) because of her lack of emotional response/social stuff. Secondly the fact that she’s clearly uncomfortable/struggles with this kind of conversation – the hesitation, the lack of responses are very much at odds with her usual composure and the way she has an answer for literally everything.

Words of Radiance:

She was all too glad to be leaving the stuffy room, which stank of too many perfumes mingling.

Prologue and we’ve already got Jasnah experiencing sensory issues in a crowded room with lots of perfume. What a way to kick things off.

“Many people consider that sort of thing enjoyable.”

“Many people, unfortunately, are idiots.”

Her father smiled. “Is it terribly difficult for you?” he asked softly. “Living with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? Is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance, Jasnah?”

A)- Jasnah obviously not enjoying social events/parties (she literally spends all of this one…contemplating the assassination she’s plotting. Like. Mood.)

B)- Gavilar’s comment is…Strangely sad, I think?? And perhaps a bit too on point. (This is very much just my reading of things but)…I don’t know. I see Jasnah trying to make a little quip/a joke here and it being misinterpreted because of her tone. And then, again, there’s that idea of othering that came up at the end of TWOK.

But I think the ‘is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance?’ I think that….A huge part of that ‘brilliance’ comes from a mixture of Jasnah’s autistic traits: her special interest/her focus in them/her dedication to pursuing them…but also that sense of being other. Of not fitting in. The rest of “us” she doesn’t belong, she doesn’t fit.

And I think this idea of their ‘simple thoughts’ as opposed to Jasnah’s brilliant ones is a little like what we see with Renarin in Oathbringer, where Adolin explains that he isn’t trying to be lofty and brilliant, people sometimes just have difficulty following him. And I think this is what’s happening with Jasnah here (and in other places, she frequently talks about the difficulty she has in teaching, and how her methods are too intense and involved)

And also I think that….The saddest bit about this is that I think she was….Trying to joke here? Trying to fit in with those ordinary people, ‘the rest of us’, and just making a sarcastic joke on the back of her father’s comment about most people enjoying parties and she just sort of ‘well, most people are idiots aren’t they?’ And that’s what prompts this little moment here. So even when she’s trying to fit, and trying to belong, she’s still cast as the outcast, and misunderstood, and othered and it Hurts Me.

 I, she thought, need to write this experience down.

She would do so, then analyze and consider. Later. 

She literally topples into another world, effectively, and is just like ‘hm, I should make some notes on this and analyse them’. And. Yep. This is how she processes the world. By making sense of it, by treating everything according to Jasnah’s rules: it gets written down. It gets analysed. It gets understood. Bam.

Jasnah ignored the eyes of the sailors. It wasn’t that she didn’t notice men. Jasnah noticed everything and everyone. She simply didn’t seem to care, one way or another, how men perceived her.

Jasnah ‘I don’t have time for social expectations’ Kholin strikes again. Jasnah also just doesn’t care how anyone perceives her, social norms and expectations can go storm themselves .

Jasnah grimaced at the thought. Shallan was always surprised to see visible emotion from her. Emotion was something relatable, something human—and Shallan’s mental image of Jasnah Kholin was of someone almost divine.

Again, the othering idea, as well as visible emotion being startling, as she’s typically so withdrawn/closed off/difficult to read. Yes friend, u guessed it, this is Peak Autism. Also the specific word in it being ‘relatable’ again marks that difference between Jasnah and…Everyone else. Again she’s different, again she doesn’t quite fit.

Jasnah relaxed visibly. “Yes, well, it did seem a workable solution. I had wondered, however, if you’d be offended.”

“Why on the winds would I be offended?”

“Because of the restriction of freedom implicit in a marriage,” Jasnah said. 

Again, Jasnah misreading things/not being able to anticipate how people are going to react to different things. Also her view of marriage as ‘restricting’ says a lot about how she sees it/probably relationships in general.

Power is an illusion of perception.”

Shallan frowned.

“Don’t mistake me,” Jasnah continued. “Some kinds of power are real—power to command armies, power to Soulcast. These come into play far less often than you would think. On an individual basis, in most interactions, this thing we call power—authority—exists only as it is perceived.

“You say I have wealth. This is true, but you have also seen that I do not often use it. You say I have authority as the sister of a king. I do. And yet, the men of this ship would treat me exactly the same way if I were a beggar who had convinced them I was the sister to a king. In that case, my authority is not a real thing. It is mere vapors—an illusion. I can create that illusion for them, as can you.”

This right here is Jasnah explaining passing, without ever using the word ‘passing’. This is how Jasnah sees social interactions. They’re all illusions, they’re all, effectively, lies. They aren’t real to her. How people perceive others isn’t something that she can fit into her box of neat facts and logic. It’s this ever changing, insubstantial thing, ‘mere vapours’. And though she’s talking here about power and authority, the basic principle applies to literally every single social interaction ever. Aka: the secret behind how Jasnah Kholin (somehow) managed to convince ppl she’s allistic.

The orders of knights were a construct, just as all society is a construct, used by men to define and explain. Not every man who wields a spear is a soldier, and not every woman who makes bread is a baker. And yet weapons, or baking, become the hallmarks of certain professions.”

Actual footage of Jasnah Kholin going to war against social constructs and their flimsiness.

It was a picture of Jasnah, drawn by Shallan herself. Shallan had given it to the woman after being accepted as her ward. She’d assumed Jasnah had thrown it away—the woman had little fondness for visual arts, which she considered a frivolity.

Instead, she’d kept it here with her most precious things. 

This is one of my favourite Underrated Jasnah Moments tbh because it says so much about her with such a simple gesture. We’ve established from the past book and a half that Jasnah is pretty bad when it comes to social interactions, and she’s even worse when it comes to displaying her emotions. But she’s not emotionless. She, personally, doesn’t see the value in visual arts, and hasn’t dedicated any time to it herself. Yet she keeps the gift that Shallan gives her. She understands how important this is to Shallan, and she quite literally treasures the art that Shallan gives her, and keeps it with her precious research/notes (and, like, Symbolism with her keeping her sentimental gifts and logic fuelled research in the same place/with the same level of importance/value, except one is hidden, and one is displayed)

And, like, Shall literally assumes Jasnah had just thrown away the picture?? And instead she’s got it kept safe with her most treasured possessions? Like??? The TL;DR version of this point is that Jasnah is horrendous at displaying her emotions/showing people how she feels about them/what they mean to her, but she feels things, goddammit. And now so am I.

What of this Sadeas? she thought, flipping to a page in the notebook. It listed him as conniving and dangerous, but noted that both he and his wife were sharp of wit. A man of intelligence might listen to Shallan’s arguments and understand them.

Aladar was listed as another highprince that Jasnah respected. Powerful, known for his brilliant political maneuvers. He was also fond of games of chance. Perhaps he would risk an expedition to find Urithiru, if Shallan highlighted the potential riches to be found.

Hatham was listed as a man of delicate politics and careful planning. Another potential ally. Jasnah didn’t think much of Thanadal, Bethab, or Sebarial. The first she called oily, the second a dullard, and the third outrageously rude.

She studied them and their motivations for some time. 

Right. Now. Correct my autistic chull if I’m wrong, here, but I’m like 89% certain that ‘taking notes on the basic personalities/literally studying the people around you and making notes on the way they behave so you can actually understand them’ is not a typical allistic thing to do.

Shallan turned back toward him. That pride in his voice didn’t at all match what Jasnah had written of the man.

Jasnah can literally predict the oncoming apocalypse by the power of research, can she pin down some basic Facts about the people she’s observing around her? Nope. I wonder why.

“She wouldn’t let me be a mother to her, Dalinar,” Navani said, staring into the distance. “Do you know that? It was almost like . . . like once Jasnah climbed into adolescence, she no longer needed a mother. I would try to get close to her, and there was this coldness, like even being near me reminded her that she had once been a child. What happened to my little girl, so full of questions?”

Two things: one, this is probably (agonisingly) relating to whatever trauma Jasnah experienced as a child and I’ve got Painful Emotions about it. Secondly, Jasnah being very mature for her age/shucking Navani’s influence because it wasn’t what she thought she needed/wanted is, like, not exactly the most tactful/self-aware/socially conscious thing in the entire universe.

“You’re still human,” Shallan said, reaching across, putting her hand on Navani’s knee. “We can’t all be emotionless chunks of rock like Jasnah.”

Navani smiled. “She sometimes had the empathy of a corpse, didn’t she?”

Oh look, it’s canon low!empathy Jasnah: from the words of her own mother no less.

(Also, small note here, as a low!empathy autistic myself: I really love the way Jasnah is written because it complements my own understanding of empathy which is…Fairly complicated. Jasnah isn’t just like none and done here. It’s not that she just doesn’t feel empathy so she doesn’t care? She isn’t characterised as this brutal, unfeeling, robotic ice queen. There are a lot of nuances and complexities here as to how she relates to those around her and I love it.

She obviously loves her family very deeply, and is driven to protect and help them (in a very practical, logical way I might add. Which is typically how I relate to care/love as well. You want a shoulder to cry on? I’m going to sit there awkwardly, pat you on the head, and hope you stop soon. There’s a practical solution to your current problem? Heaven and earth will be moved to achieve it.) She keeps Shallan’s drawing, even treasures it. And I think that she obviously….Feels her lack of feeling (if that makes sense)

See: the hospital scene with Shallan where she attempts to apologise. She’s…Uncomfortable with the emotional aspect of things, and she’s completely wrong about Shallan’s intentions, and actually her actions as well. There’s a block there with the empathy…But that’s obviously something that doesn’t exactly…Sit right with her? She’s quite self-depreciating in that scene, actually, and it’s clear (to me, anyway) that there’s the sense of her being aware that there’s something…Missing. Something that…Doesn’t quite line up. Something that makes her different and stops her relating to people perhaps in the way that she wants to.

Anyway: don’t equate lack of empathy with lack of love: a novel by Brandon Sanderson. God bless. Intentional or not, this is one of the most relatable low!empathy characters I’ve ever read and I’m here for it.

“Chana knows, I wondered sometimes how I raised that child without strangling her. By age six, she was pointing out my logical fallacies as I tried to get her to go to bed on time.”

Shallan grinned. “I always just assumed she was born in her thirties.”

“Oh, she was. It just took thirty-some years for her body to catch up.” Navani smiled. “I won’t take this from you, but neither should I allow you to attempt a project so important on your own. I would be part. Figuring out the puzzles that captivated her . . . it will be like having her again. My little Jasnah, insufferable and wonderful.”

Again, a few things here: this concept of autistic children being far more mature/behaving like ‘little adults’ is actually pretty common. Also the puzzle-solving thing is just. Relatable.

Oathbringer

“Brightness?” Shallan said. “But … Shardblades aren’t fabrials. They’re spren, transformed by the bond.”

“As are fabrials, after a manner of speaking,” Jasnah said. “You do know how they’re made, don’t you?”

“Only vaguely,” Shallan said. This was how their reunion went? A lecture? Fitting.

Jasnah is believed dead for months on end, reunites with Shallan after who knows how long: immediately starts infodumping to her. Shallan:…….’Figured.’

People were always surprised to see emotion from Jasnah, but Dalinar considered that unfair. She did smile—she merely reserved the expression for when it was most genuine.

Jasnah back at it with the only bothering with emotions when they’re genuine. (Also Dalinar getting all indignant about people not understanding Jasnah/mischaracterising her is my favourite)

“They will try,” Jasnah said, “to define you by something you are not. Don’t let them. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity. I have always rejected that, and will continue to do so.”

Obviously she’s talking about her heresy here, but with a tiny smidge of tweaking it works well for her being autistic, too. She will always be a little bit different, always not fit, always be defined by being an outsider.

“In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price.”

“Storms!” Kaladin said, standing up straight. “Have you no sympathy?”

“I have plenty, bridgeman. Fortunately, I temper it with logic. Perhaps you should consider acquiring some at a future date.”

Again on the feelings tempered by logic, thing. (Also Kaladin/Jasnah is interesting because they’re basically….polar opposites, and I enjoy the dynamic. But that’s for another day.)

“If you wish, Captain,” Jasnah snapped, “I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable.”

“I’d love that,” Kaladin responded. “In turn, I’ll get you some eels to cuddle. You’ll feel right at home.”

Jasnah, curiously, smiled. 

Jasnah: approves of frank, honest comments. Even if they’re mildly insulting. As long as they’re genuine.

They didn’t talk tactics too specifically; that was a masculine art, and Dalinar would want his highprinces and generals to discuss the battlefields. Still, Shallan didn’t fail to notice the tactical terms Jasnah used now and then.

In things like this, Shallan had difficulty understanding the woman. In some ways, Jasnah seemed fiercely masculine. She studied whatever she pleased, and she talked tactics as easily as she talked poetry. She could be aggressive, even cold—Shallan had seen her straight-up execute thieves who had tried to rob her. Beyond that … well, it probably was best not to speculate on things with no meaning, but people did talk. Jasnah had turned down every suitor for her hand, including some very attractive and influential men. People wondered. Was she perhaps simply not interested?

All of this should have resulted in a person who was decidedly unfeminine. Yet Jasnah wore the finest makeup, and wore it well, with shadowed eyes and bright red lips. She kept her safehand covered, and preferred intricate and fetching styles of braids from her hairdresser. Her writings and her mind made her the very model of Vorin femininity.

Jasnah just not caring about social/cultural gender norms. Jasnah does what Jasnah wants. But also, gender roles, and tbh the entire concept of gender, is a social construct, it’s something a lot of autistic folks struggle with. (Also non-binary/agender!Jasnah just, as a fun little aside) 

 “Surely,” she said softly, “if Jasnah had known that I’d just confronted a deep insecurity of mine, she’d have shown some empathy. Right?”

“Jasnah?” Pattern asked. “I do not think you are paying attention, Shallan. She is not very empathetic.”

A)- Jasnah probably didn’t notice and B)- low!empathy Jasnah again.

Jasnah rubbed her temples. “Storms. This is why I never take wards.”

“Because they give you so much trouble.”

“Because I’m bad at it. I have scientific evidence of that fact, and you are but the latest experiment.” Jasnah shooed her away, rubbing her temples.

‘I have scientific evidence of the fact I’m not good at mentoring/teaching/with people in general’ actual quote from Jasnah herself. Also, just, the language here? The mentoring/taking of wards is an intimate social relationship in Vorin culture, but the way Jasnah speaks of it she uses words like ‘scientific evidence’ and ‘experiment’ which says a lot about how she views relationships in general tbh. 

Also, I think her self-consciousness is something that’s interesting to note. This isn’t the first time she questions her teaching abilities/methods, in fact it’s one of her biggest and most obvious insecurities, it’s something that she’s very aware of. She knows she’s bad at this, and it bothers her. 

“Ivory, you think all humans are unstable.”

“Not you,” he said, lifting his chin. “You are like a spren. You think by facts. You change not on simple whims. You are as you are.”

She gave him a flat stare.

“Mostly,” he added. “Mostly. But it is, Jasnah. Compared to other humans, you are practically a stone!”

[…]

“Jasnah?” Ivory asked. “Am I … in error?”

“I am not so much a stone as you think, Ivory. Sometimes I wish I were.”

And again with Jasnah being factual-based when it comes to her decisions ,and emotions based when it comes to her motivations. Jasnah Kholin feels things so deeply I will physically fight you over this matter. Also, given what we’ve seen, it definitely seems as though Ivory/Inkspren/Jasnah’s ideals are concerned with logic/reason/rightness, and that being a defining aspect of her/her order is interesting in the context of her being autistic. 

Renarin still lurked at the far side of the room, mumbling to himself. Or perhaps to his spren? She absently read his lips.

Since, as far as we know, Jasnah isn’t deaf/hoh, the lip reading is something she acquired for other purposes. Probably as part of her paranoia/wish to protect her family, but it’d also probably help with auditory processing disorder. Which is basically where your ears hear words fine, but your brain scrambles them up and fails to make sense of them. Also a lot of autistic folks (self included) tend to watch people’s mouths instead of their eyes (bc eye contact Sucks) and I’m not saying I can lip-read, but if I could it’d definitely make life easier.

But when, before this, had she last heard him laugh?

“Maybe,” Navani said, “we should encourage him to take a break and go out with the bridgemen for the evening.”

“I’d rather keep him here,” Jasnah said, flipping through her pages. “His powers need additional study.”

Navani would talk to Renarin anyway and encourage him to go out more with the men. There was no arguing with Jasnah, any more than there was arguing with a boulder. You just stepped to the side and went around.

Jasnah being completely and utterly oblivious to the hidden agenda/undercurrent to Navani’s thoughts which is ‘Renarin is comfortable with the men/is enjoying himself with them, maybe we should encourage that?’ and just responds to her mother’s words and nothing else. The boulder analogy makes me laugh (but also recalls what Ivory said about her being ‘stone’ which is, again, a kind of othering, a setting apart of the ‘normal’ humans, based on how she emotes/deals with things/processes fact.

I’m sorry, Mother. I’ve been dealing with a lot of lesser ardents today. My didactic side might have inflated.”

“You have a didactic side? Dear, you hate teaching.”

“Which explains my mood, I should think. I—”

A lot of autistic folk find it difficult to teach people, largely because, if they explain something in a certain way, away in which they understand, they have trouble rephrasing it/altering it to make other people understand it as well. Can definitely, definitely see Jasnah struggling with this.

Jasnah preferred to work alone, which was odd, considering how good she was at getting people to do what she wanted. 

This shocks me to my very core so it does.

Next to her, Jasnah stood with arms wrapped around herself, eyes red. Navani reached toward her, but Jasnah pulled away from the others and stalked off toward the palace proper.

Oh look, it’s touch!averse Jasnah. (she’s really not very touchy feely at all) AlsoJasnah not knowing how to deal with her emotions/grief and withdrawing from people around her. Also I’m calling the arms wrapped around herself as a pressure stim. Fight me.

Jasnah met his eyes, chewing her lip as she’d always done as a child.

Jasnah having anxious!stims (that she probably forced herself to unlearn)

“Forget I asked,” Dalinar said, sharing a look with Navani and Jasnah. Navani smiled fondly at what was probably a huge social misstep, but he suspected Jasnah agreed with him. She’d probably have seized the banks and used them to fund the war.

Jasnah ‘storm your social niceties, I have a war to win’ Kholin.

Suddenly they were young again. He was a trembling child, weeping on her shoulder for a father who didn’t seem to be able to feel love. Little Renarin, always so solemn. Always misunderstood, laughed at and condemned by people who said similar things about Jasnah behind her back.

Mm, who else was ‘solemn’ as a child? Maybe ‘correcting logical fallacies at age six’ ‘no longer needed a mother when she reached adolescence’ Jasnah. And, like, ‘people mock Renarin for his autistic traits…Jasnah is also mocked for having these exact same traits.’ It’s basically canon, people.

Jasnah fell to her knees, then pulled Renarin into an embrace. He broke down crying, like he had as a boy, burying his head in her shoulder.

Also, the fact that Renarin instinctively went to Jasnah for comfort, not Navani, who eagerly mothers literally everyone around her, or anyone else, he went to Jasnah ‘empathy of a corpse, made of literal stone’ Kholin for comfort and support tells me something. It tells me that these two had an understanding. That Jasnah understood Renarin, and that Renarin understood Jasnah, and that there perhaps a reason for that that has to do with their shared brain weirdness.

This is also the first time, as I recall, that Jasnah responds with physical affection. (And this doesn’t undermine what I said about her being touch!averse, she is, but a)- she initiates this contact and b)- it’s with someone she’s clearly comfortable with this level of contact) 

Jasnah glanced over her shoulder at the gathering army. “And perhaps … this is one time when a lecture isn’t advisable. With all my complaints about not wanting wards, you’d think I would be able to resist instructing people at inopportune times. Keep moving.”

I have said it before and I will say it again, Jasnah infodumping to an exhausted Shallan in the middle of a storming battlefield is the most autistic thing I have ever witnessed in my entire life.

These had always been right. Until today—until they had proclaimed that Jasnah Kholin’s love would fail.

And, to summarise it all neatly, Jasnah Kholin, empathy of a corpse, heart of a boulder, whose love in the end never failed her. *wipes tear* my beautiful autistic queen is good and full of love and feeling but just being really bad at showing it to people. We do not deserve her.

TL;DR: Jasnah is autistic af. It’s basically canon. Fight me.

 

 

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, animalia said:

Hi I am back. I am not on my phone this time, but My PC, and as such once I found the page AGAIN, it was easier to copy and paste.

Here you go the whole thing in quotes

Why did you copy-paste your giant post from before?  It's very easy (especially on a computer) to just hit the edit post button if you need to reformat things.  Plus double posting (or triple posting) is against the forum rules.  

[animalia]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Why did you copy-paste your giant post from before?  It's very easy (especially on a computer) to just hit the edit post button if you need to reformat things.  Plus double posting (or triple posting) is against the forum rules.  

Uh. Should I have left out the parts that repeat in the beginning and only add the new parts? I was copying and pasting the whole post for someone else on a different thread anyways, so I figured I might as well finish what I started, and I DID say I would put come back and put the rest on another post on this thread earlier. l had already had the whole post on my pc’s clipboard for the purpose of copying and pasting to the other thread, so I ended up just copying and pasting the whole thing again here.

If you want me to go back and edit the second post here, so that it doesn’t repeat things in the beginning, I will.

 

Also for clarification’s sake this is something I found online and was trying to share. Not something I originally wrote myself.

 

EDIT: Wait, no I didn’t say that I only thought I said that.      

Edited October 10, 2018 by animalia

[Cameron]

I'd personally prefer Jasnah wasn't seen as having autism. There's a common thread these days of labelling gifted children as autistic because they share certain characteristics when young. I want there to be a character who's gifted and who struggles early one but who growths past it as they age.

 

On 10/10/2018 at 3:42 PM, animalia said:

Hi I am back. I am not on my phone this time, but My PC, and as such once I found the page AGAIN, it was easier to copy and paste.

Here you go the whole thing in quotes

 

 

All of those could also be explained by being highly Gifted. One of the key ways psychologists distinguish between gifted and autistic children is their ability to tackle complicated abstractions. Jasnah's specialism as a scholar is all about abstractions.

This is a really good resource for folk trying to discern giftedness and autism:

https://mumsinthewoodeducation.com/teach-them/special-needs/gifted-and-talentedaspergers-syndrome/

[animalia]

5 hours ago, Cameron said:

I'd personally prefer Jasnah wasn't seen as having autism. There's a common thread these days of labelling gifted children as autistic because they share certain characteristics when young. I want there to be a character who's gifted and who struggles early one but who growths past it as they age.

 

All of those could also be explained by being highly Gifted. One of the key ways psychologists distinguish between gifted and autistic children is their ability to tackle complicated abstractions. Jasnah's specialism as a scholar is all about abstractions.

This is a really good resource for folk trying to discern giftedness and autism:

https://mumsinthewoodeducation.com/teach-them/special-needs/gifted-and-talentedaspergers-syndrome/

That's a fair point. But given that Autism has a genetic component and can run in families, BUT manifest in DIFFERENT ways, this Is a reason why I hope she does have it.

[+Child of Hodor]

5 hours ago, Cameron said:

I'd personally prefer Jasnah wasn't seen as having autism. There's a common thread these days of labelling gifted children as autistic because they share certain characteristics when young. I want there to be a character who's gifted and who struggles early one but who growths past it as they age.

 

All of those could also be explained by being highly Gifted. One of the key ways psychologists distinguish between gifted and autistic children is their ability to tackle complicated abstractions. Jasnah's specialism as a scholar is all about abstractions.

This is a really good resource for folk trying to discern giftedness and autism:

https://mumsinthewoodeducation.com/teach-them/special-needs/gifted-and-talentedaspergers-syndrome/

Thank you for this link. Jasnah could have a neurological disorder, a mental illness or something else. I could see her institutionalization being a result of her being as a very willful "different" girl in a society with very strict gender roles and her behavior was seen as "abnormal". She may have been beginning to bond a spren as well and this would lead to her acting oddly.

They are in different orders, but Elhokar started talking about seeing strange creatures in the mirror watching him. Dalinar and Adolin think he's paranoid and imagining things, but he wasn't. Jasnah may have started a proto-radiant bond and not understood, but for whatever reason she did not progress in the bond as a child. We saw that Shallan stopped progressing as a child as well. 

It's tough when trying to diagnose fictional characters (or anyone when we're not doctors and they aren't our patients) because many different conditions share behavior markers and characteristics. I've seen people go back and forth on whether Kelsier is best categorized as Psychopath, a Sociopath or a Malignant Narcissist.  I have been diagnosed with depression, anxiety and ADHD by multiple doctors, but some of the traits of Asperger's on the website you linked are very familiar, but most are not. 

I don't write this to say anybody is right or wrong I just wanted to caution that similar symptoms can have different causes. As another example it is difficult to tell the difference between ADHD and Bipolar https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-vs-bipolar-a-guide-to-distinguishing-look-alike-conditions/

 

[Leyrann]

17 hours ago, Cameron said:

I'd personally prefer Jasnah wasn't seen as having autism. There's a common thread these days of labelling gifted children as autistic because they share certain characteristics when young. I want there to be a character who's gifted and who struggles early one but who growths past it as they age.

 

All of those could also be explained by being highly Gifted. One of the key ways psychologists distinguish between gifted and autistic children is their ability to tackle complicated abstractions. Jasnah's specialism as a scholar is all about abstractions.

This is a really good resource for folk trying to discern giftedness and autism:

https://mumsinthewoodeducation.com/teach-them/special-needs/gifted-and-talentedaspergers-syndrome/

Well I'm sorry to disappoint you, but having autism doesn't mean you can't tackle complicated abstractions.

[animalia]

On 10/13/2018 at 0:43 AM, Leyrann said:

Well I'm sorry to disappoint you, but having autism doesn't mean you can't tackle complicated abstractions.

Ditto. As someone diagnosed with Asperger’s I deal with stuff such as metaphor, a type of abstraction quite well, I also deal with sarcasm well

And before you ask I was diagnosed by a doctor.

The ability to deal with this stuff varies from person to person 

While this isn’t a medical resource or even cited like Wikipedia I found it remarkable accurate in helping to describe Asperger’s to others

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/AspergerSyndrome

But if you don’t want to read the whole link I will quote the relevant part.

 

• This is a frequently disputed point. Many Aspies understand sarcasm, metaphor, analogy, and satire very well. Many can also be very adept liars due to their understanding of language and nuance (though lying tends to be rare and is usually for a deliberate and specific reason due to the effect it has on the Aspie's strong conscience). The point of dispute is that while taking things literally and straightforward is the "default mode" for most Aspies, it is by no means the only mode of operation. Furthermore, for many Aspies, the illogical aspect of pretending the world is other than that which it is lies less in the literal and direct thinking and more in that such self-delusion makes little sense to the Aspie mind as a general rule.

An Aspie: "If we see the world differently, why should I pretend it is anything other than how I see it? Why should you pretend? Once we know we disagree we can agree on a compromise, rather than lying. Then we can be friends."

 

Edit: Emphaisis Mine. And now that I think about it that qouted statement sounds alot like something Jasnah would say as well.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by animalia

[animalia]

Please forgive my double post but I want the person who just repped me to see this as it’s what I originally came back to this thread to comment on and I don’t want it to be missed. It’s a quote from the linked page before.

Try to upset them deliberately and you'll rarely get the reaction you expected, because the two most confusing emotions for Aspies are sorrow and anger. And while it depends on the individual, they may have a very unexpected berserk button.

I bring this up because we RARELY se Jasnah get upset. With the exception of Amaram who she is both impliied and confirmed to have history with, not much seems to get to her. And even with him it was a gradual winding up of tensions rather than a sudden loosing of her cool as she gave him MULTIPLE opportunities to walk away before things got to the point where they did. As a result I want to know, what is Jasnah Berserk Button? And will we get to see it pushed and go off in the next book.

 Personally I think it would be great if after all this build up of how she’s a supposedly emotionalless rock who thinks according to logic and is only moved by the people closed to her to have the sudden switch occur in the next book and show (to the average reader, and viewpoint character) that she’s FAR more emotional than she seems. 

I even have a theory about what the Berserk button could be, and how it could come into play in such a reveal.

It’s shown before that Jasnah’s rails against restrictions of peoples freedoms. Well what would happen if someone suggested that the Parshmen should be “grateful” for what was done to them? I’d imagine Jasnah would snap. Especially given her time in one of the Alethi’s facilities for the mentally ill. Which are, let’s face it, not that great.

I mean let’s face it. The people of Roshar didn’t JUST feed the Parshmen who were unable to feed for themselves, as a result of an unfortunate side effect of the attempt to seal off their forms of power. They ALSO turned them into out and out slaves. It is, for lack of a better word, dehumanizing. We don’t know much about how the mentally ill are treated on Roshar (and I know it will be ages before we get Jasnah’s full backstory) but I imagine it is similarly dehumanizing and more restricing or freedom than necessary. 

I apologize if I rambled or speculated to much. I am open to other theories.

And I am aware of the fact that she was mentioned the possibility of genocide. My personal theory is she MEANT to say was that if they don’t find a way to stop the fused they will be stuck in a reality that was came down to the horrible atrocity of us vs them. The explanation made sense in her mind but it came out wrong in her mouth. Something I can relate to.

 

That being said I would both like to know what people think of this idea AND if they have other potential ideas for what the Berserk button could be as I am open to suggestions. 

[Thurin]

This thread discusses almost only Jasnah (and Renarin), but Dalinar and Gavilar are Kholins too.

Both of them got to know The Way of Kings (in-world) and they gave it their all to live up to its ideals.

Gavilor had his higher goal of trying to bring the Heralds back together with the Sons of Honor. His ambitions went even beyond the sake of a unified Alethkar.

Dalinar tried to convince the other highprinces to follow the Alethi codes of war by being exemplary himself, not caring about all the rumours. In Urithiru we see that he wants to have everything under control.

One of the general characteristics of autism is that you can get really dedicated to your cause, and this applies to both Gavilar and late-Dalinar.

[animalia]

Ironically Young Dalinar seems more sociopatic although not QUITE THERE in that he doesn’t bother to lie. Sociopaths ARE capable of OCCASIONALLY caring about those CLOSE to them, and might not sever THOSE BONDS. BUT in general DON’T care much. Also unlike Asperger’s Syndrome/Autism which typically is unable to tell a lie to save their life, the STEREOTYPICAL Sociopath typically is a consumate liar. That being said I could see how under VERY DARK conditions the former could be twisted into the later. With the encouraging of violence for violence’s sake, the elevating of the temper (or what we call meltdowns) it would encourage the worst in such a person rather than the best.

Edited October 29, 2018 by animalia