[OB] Kaladin's Character Progression

[Starla]

As much as I loved Oathbringer, there is one aspect that left me feeling unfulfilled, and that is Kaladin’s character progression, or lack thereof. He's my favorite character so I am attentive and sensitive to his specific storyline. By the end of the book I felt that he had no growth, no successes, several failures, and little impact on the story overall. I thought he had a few nice moments with his family, Bridge Four, and Syl, and made some progress with his negative thought patterns and mental state, but these things seemed to have very little effect on his actions within the story. Note the results of his specific plot threads:

Hearthstone (Fail/No Impact/Unresolved)
Kaladin’s goal here was to warn and prepare the town for the everstorm. He arrived too late for that. Once he reached the citylord manor, the town residents had already organized themselves, injuries were treated, and they were as safe as could be expected in the circumstance. He left to search for the parshmen with the promise to return at a later time. By the end of the book Alethkar had been taken over by voidbringers and the Alethi are captured or taking refuge in other countries. Kaladin never returned to check on his family and we don’t know their current status.

Parshmen (Fail/Unresolved)
Kaladin spent most of Part 1 traveling with the parshmen. He befriended them and taught them basic survival skills. This sets up an interesting dilemma for him. He feels empathy with these people and begins to question the “us and them” mentality, who the real enemies are, and the distinction between untransformed parshmen/former slaves vs. fused/voidforms/agents of Odium. He abruptly flies away from his friendly parshmen at the end of Part 1 and we never fully revisit this issue. He had one argument with Jasnah in Part 2, but otherwise there is no resolution or further discussion about how to handle the parshmen or the human prisoners left in pens in Alethkar. Additionally, Kaladin’s band of friendly parshmen became Moash’s team and participated in the king’s assassination and overtaking the palace.

Kholinar (Fail)
The objective here was to rescue the queen and prince and open the oathgate so the Alethi troops could retake Kholinar. Turns out that Aesudan is hosting an unmade, Gavinor is taken by the enemy, Elhokar is dead, the palace and Kholinar are lost, Kaladin goes catatonic while watching his men kill each other, the oathgate is inhabited by another unmade, and our four surviving heroes end up trapped in Shadesmar. Kaladin’s squires were left behind, and they were the ones to rescue Gavinor and bring him to safety, a task Elhokar has specifically assigned to Kaladin.

Protect Dalinar (Fail/Low Impact)
Kaladin’s time in Shadesmar primarily revolves around the vision of Dalinar with nine shadows and his strong sense of urgency to get to Thaylen City to protect Dalinar. They arrive at the Thaylen City oathgate to find it guarded by fused. Kaladin tries to distract them, but ultimately runs out of stormlight and falls into the sea of beads, where he is rescued by Syl. They are finally saved by Dalinar’s perpendicularity, which happens after his confrontation with Odium. Kaladin played no part in that fight, so his vision had no real purpose or payoff. He later distracts the fused as Dalinar confronts Nergaoul, but Kaladin had very little impact on that fight. Probably any member of Bridge Four could have filled this role for Dalinar. 

Fourth Ideal (Fail)
Several scenes in the book seem to foreshadow Kaladin’s speaking the fourth ideal. This includes the wind-shield scene in Part 1 and the wind spren forming around him in Shadesmar. In part 5, he finally gets to the point where he knows the words and tries to speak them, but he cannot bring himself to do it. He breaks down in tears and is comforted by Syl, resulting in the biggest let-down moment of the entire book (for me). Compare this to Teft, who has apparently said three ideals in the same book and is now at the same level as Kaladin. 

Amaram (Fail)
Amaram has been Kaladin's arch nemesis since Book 1 Chapter 1. A final confrontation between the two of them has been overshadowing Kaladin’s story for three books, and as a reader I have been anxiously awaiting it. We finally get to it in Part 5. Not only is he confronting Amaram, he is also confronting an unmade, Yelig-nar (Blightwind). The symmetry of having Shallan confront Re-Shephir, Dalinar confront Nergaoul, and Kaladin confront Yelig-nar in the same book seems so perfect. Each of these unmade have a resonance with their respective orders and personalities. Well, Kaladin fails again here. He runs out of stormlight and is nearly killed by Amaram/Yelig-nar, only to be rescued in the last minute by Rock, who makes the killing blow.

Shallan (Fail/No impact)
The weird love triangle. The entire purpose of this sub-plot seems to have been to highlight Shallan’s multiple personas. One of them likes Adolin, one of them likes Kaladin, they other one is just confused. In the end, Shallan determines that Veil, the persona who likes Kaladin, has bad taste in men. Shallan does not realize that these personalities are all part of her and that these are her own thoughts and feelings. She has no growth from this situation and she seems to be worse off at the end of the book than when she started. Kaladin also has no growth from it. The Helaran discussion did not come up at all. This whole arc seems to have had very little impact on the story or characters.

Mental Issues (Progress/No Impact/Unresolved)
This is one area that Kaladin seems to have made some progress. Unfortunately, none of this progress seemed to have any positive effect on the events of the story. He stepped up as a radiant and stopped hiding. His attitude towards lighteyes was greatly improved, to the point that he became friends with a group of lighteyed soldiers whose deaths he later mourned. He did not flinch when referred to as “Brightlord.” When he felt himself slipping into a dark place after the Kholinar catastrophe, he reflected on his depression, determined that it was illogical, and talked to Shallan about how she stays positive. These are big steps for him and I would have loved to see him be extra-awesome as a result of these positive changes. Instead, his actions and failures all seem to be ruled by his primary unresolved issue, which is guilt and grief over the people he failed to protect.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I find it odd that one of the main protagonists of the series would spend an entire 1200+ page book with very little growth, impact or resolution, so perhaps I am missing something important. Did others feel this way, or do you think he made progress as a character? Was he put on hold to be continued at a later date due to the vast amount of material in this book? Is the lack of forward momentum part of his development? Why would he go stagnant at a time where he is embracing his radiant-ness? Are all of these failures tied to his Fourth Ideal in some way? I want to find the progression for his character in this book, and I’m not sure what it is.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Starla
Add OB to title

[IndigoAjah]

I think you highlight here how much he HAS progressed. 

 

I'll explain why when I'm at my computer later. But the most important thing for Kal to do is to get better at celebrating despite his Depression (which he did), try to work out a solution for the Windrunner ideals vs his surgeon ideals (which he attempts more than ever and makes headway), and realise that it is ok for him to fail, sometimes it can't be helped and it's not his fault and others (like Dalinar) can share the responsibility to save. And that is the Ideal he is currently teetering on.

 

i think he progressed a lot, people just seem to expect book characters to have a clear, forward and never relapsing journey. Which is absolutely not how life works,and his refusal to depict that is where Brandon shines, above many lauded "literary classic"'writers 

[IntentAwesome]

I agree with @Starla. On my first read-through, I found Kaladin's storyline incredibly disappointing. On the second read-through, I appreciated his story a little more, as it became clear that Kaladin's arc was mostly a lot of set up for the next book. Which will be awesome, but is another three years away. I should mention that Kaladin is my favorite character, so I'm guilty of that, and I wanted more of him.

In part one, the only thing Kaladin really contributes is a new perspective on the "evil" Voidbringers. But I think we see enough of the Singers in other parts of the book that we would have been able to conclude that these aren't one-sided villains.

We see some glimpses of Kaladin in part two, but he doesn't really do anything, other than the argument with Jasnah over how to handle the Singers moving forward. I do think this will be very important aspect in the next book. In my estimation, Kaladin is correct. The only way to end the unlimited supply of Fused is for the Singers to refuse to host them. That means the humans and the Singers will have to work together at some point. So, again, set up for the next book. And I do hope that Kaladin becomes a driving force in that arc.

In parts three and four, the only real reason Kaladin seems to be with Elhokar and co. is to facilitate the love triangle. Kaladin needs to be around Adolin and Shallan to brood beautifully. Sometimes I really thought Kaladin's character was reduced to being the attractive, distracting male for the main female protagonist. His whole plot with the Wall Guard showed a little bit of Kaladin's gift as a leader, but I honestly thought it was a role Adolin could easily have done, as he is also a good leader and would have been able to fit in easily with a group of wall guards. The important moment for Kaladin is, of course, the battle in the palace where he freezes. But I agree that this is unresolved and seems to mostly just be set up. 

I've come to expect Kaladin as a gifted, if arrogant, leader; an excellent and creative problem-solver; resourceful; and someone who is fairly observant and good at reading other individuals (at least his men, if not women), which we saw a lot of with Bridge Four in the first book. I don't really think we saw any of those personality traits in this book. His two attempts at leading other groups led to disaster (even though he was able to become their leader fairly quickly). We hardly saw him at all with Bridge Four. In fact, sometimes I had the impression that Kaladin was losing Bridge Four, just because there was a general lack of meaningful interaction with them. He doesn't really solve any problems in this book. And he was mostly presented as pretty obtuse about others, even Bridge Four. Granted, this could be because we are seeing some other perspectives of him, and Kaladin isn't as observant as he thinks he is, but still.

In summary, I guess I don't think Kaladin drove much, if any, of the plot of Oathbringer, and I think much of what I have come to love about him as a character was missing. Though I do think there was some excellent set up for him in the next book, and I'm excited to see that.

 

 

 

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

I find it odd that one of the main protagonists of the series would spend an entire 1200+ page book with very little growth, impact or resolution, so perhaps I am missing something important. Did others feel this way, or do you think he made progress as a character? Was he put on hold to be continued at a later date due to the vast amount of material in this book? Is the lack of forward momentum part of his development? Why would he go stagnant at a time where he is embracing his radiant-ness? Are all of these failures tied to his Fourth Ideal in some way? I want to find the progression for his character in this book, and I’m not sure what it is.

Kaladin is my favorite main character and one of my favorite characters all around, so I promise I am not writing this biased because I dislike him.

I was personally quite satisfied with Kaladin this book. Do I wish he had had a win? Absolutely. But the truth is he needs to learn:

1. That he can't save everyone 

2. That he will sometimes fail, its part of life and he needs to accept it

3. That he doesn't have to do everything himself. He has friends, he has squires, he has people willing to pick up the slack if he stumbles, and he needs to know that while a lot rests on his shoulders, the world will not end if he falls briefly.

In a way I almost found it comforting that he started seing that just because he doesn't do something himself doesn't mean it will be left undone. As I worried that feeling that he needed to do all by himself was putting a huge pressure on a 19 year old. As the leader of the Windrunners he will have a lot of pressure, the sooner he learns to rely on others and his pressure lightens the better he will be and the better he will lead. I saw the part you mentioned where he was blind to what was going on in Bridge 4 as that. He was stretching himself so thin that he was missing the little things he wouldn't be missing if he was leaning more on others and accepting his limitations.

The bad of Kaladin in OB is he failed a lot. The good is that when he failed others were there to help, and he is starting to accept it (Amaram fight illustrates this). Also, considering stronger and more squires is the Windrunner resonance you could technically see Amaram as a win. He won through his resonance .

I do however admit I'm peeved he seems to be the only KR to run out of stormlight at the worst times.

Edited November 18, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Vissy]

Kaladin running out of Stormlight just in the worst times was the deus-ex-machina in this book, but well, I guess that's set-up for the next book in, like, 2025. But Book 4 already has Szeth's entire story, Jasnah flashbacks probably, Venli will rise to prominence as a Willshaper. I hope it has room for Kaladin.

[Xavien]

To build on what @WhiteLeeopard said, a big part of Kaladin's growth is highlighted through Dalinar: failure is a part of the journey, the most important step is the next one, etc.

[WhiteLeeopard]

20 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Kaladin running out of Stormlight just in the worst times was the deus-ex-machina in this book, but well, I guess that's set-up for the next book in, like, 2025. But Book 4 already has Szeth's entire story, Jasnah flashbacks probably, Venli will rise to prominence as a Willshaper. I hope it has room for Kaladin.

Book 4 will be either Szeth's flashbacks or Eshonai's. Interestingly it may be a bit faster than this one as Brandon already wrote the flashbacks for Szeth, Eshonai and Dalinar for OB. At least part of them. Back when he was deciding whose book this would be.

[Starla]

1 hour ago, IndigoAjah said:

i think he progressed a lot, people just seem to expect book characters to have a clear, forward and never relapsing journey. Which is absolutely not how life works,and his refusal to depict that is where Brandon shines, above many lauded "literary classic"'writers 

You hit the nail on the head with this. I am looking for a tidy beginning/middle/end character arc, which isn’t happening here. I recently watched all of Brandon’s BYU lectures on fantasy writing, and he talks about making promises to the reader. If you make a promise in the beginning, it is important to resolve it otherwise the reader will feel disappointed. I know we are only three books in to a ten book series and Kaladin’s arc will continue in the next book, but Brandon has been good about making each book cover a specific story that mostly resolves in the end, without any major cliffhangers. I think I overly expected that here. He finished the Wheel of Time, so he knows the danger of leaving a lot of dangling bits between books. I should probably be glad Kaladin is in it at all, and doesn’t go missing for an entire book like Mat or Perrin. 

 

1 hour ago, IntentAwesome said:

I agree with @Starla. On my first read-through, I found Kaladin's storyline incredibly disappointing. On the second read-through, I appreciated his story a little more, as it became clear that Kaladin's arc was mostly a lot of set up for the next book. Which will be awesome, but is another three years away. I should mention that Kaladin is my favorite character, so I'm guilty of that, and I wanted more of him.

I agree that there was a lot of setup for the next book. I expect the Fourth Ideal to be a huge deal for him, considering it reduced him to tears. He'll probably get a huge moment of awesome around that. I think the timing would have been wrong at the point it came in this book, having it happen at the same time as Dalinar’s epiphany. I'm sure the wait for it will make it even more special, but holy cow it's hard to wait 3+ years.

 

56 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I was personally quite satisfied with Kaladin this book. Do I wish he had had a win? Absolutely. But the truth is he needs to learn:

1. That he can't save everyone 

2. That he will sometimes fail, its part of life and he needs to accept it

3. That he doesn't have to do everything himself. He has friends, he has squires, he has people willing to pick up the slack if he stumbles, and he needs to know that while a lot rests on his shoulders, the world will not end if he falls briefly.

[...]

The bad of Kaladin in OB is he failed a lot. The good is that when he failed others were there to help, and he is starting to accept it (Amaram fight illustrates this). Also, considering stronger and more squires is the Windrunner resonance you could technically see Amaram as a win. He won through his resonance 

I agree that Kaladin needs to learn the lessons you state in order to become a true leader and not be driven mad with grief over every loss. However, that doesn’t lessen the positive attributes he already has, which have carried him through the darkest of times in previous books. Overall he was pretty positive in this book, so I would expect those good qualities to shine through even more as a natural part of his personality. He is a gifted fighter, and the few fight scenes we got were anticlimactic. I think he managed to kill two of the Flying Fused through the whole book. He also protected several townsfolk in Revolar with the wind shield, but he lost many more. During all the time he was in Kholinar, he never considered going back to check on the people being held hostage, or how the people in Hearthstone were doing, which seems out of character for him.

I do like that others will there to help him. That alone is a mark of his talent as a person that inspires others to be their most awesome self. Still, I can't get past the Amaram thing. I really wanted him to win that fight. 

[IndigoAjah]

But I'd argue there is a whol arc there and the key to it is Kal not driving the entire plot and getting to another Ideal and saving everyone again. In the end he is saved, by the people he has saved. By the man he rescued and taught about protection last book, and by the group he has created the very virtues of the KR in. If Kal hadn't helped them they couldn't have helped him, if he hadn't trained them but more importantly saved them from themselves. And instilled loyalty in them. And that to me is more beautiful and rewarding to read than Kal taking steps towards Studom

[Steeldancer]

It was important that he failed in this book. 

Otherwise people would complain "he finished each climax with an oath in each book. This is boring."

Kaladin had a LOT of character depth in this one. His struggle with the moral implications of his oaths are exactly what his character needs to deal with. It's the hard question. Who's right? Who should he protect? 

I found his story deeply moving in this book, and illuminating into what's really going on on Roshar. 

[IndigoAjah]

Also, he did win that fight, fair and square once, then fought off the Fused, then won without even fighting because he had loyal friends where Amaram had none and could never have any. He won by himself first, then won morally the second time, then won by his impact on others the third, defeating Amaram utterly. I don't see how you can see it as a loss at any level

[WhiteLeeopard]

3 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Also, he did win that fight, fair and square once, then fought off the Fused, then won without even fighting because he had loyal friends where Amaram had none and could never have any. He won by himself first, then won morally the second time, then won by his impact on others the third, defeating Amaram utterly. I don't see how you can see it as a loss at any level

Wow, beautiful interpretation.

[+eveorjoy]

I am a big Kaladin fan girl, though Adolin is now tied with him after this book, but I understand why he was diminished. 

I don't think Kaladin is supposed to be the main character of the series. One of the main characters, yes, but not the central character. Sadly, he was taking this spot. In WoR he stole the spotlight for half the book and had a greater impact on the overall plot, yet it was supposed to be Shallan's book. In fact his character arc in WoR is in many respects more complete in than Shallan's. As for Dalinar, the other main protagonist of the series, he was barely in WoR and failed far more than Kaladin did in Oathbringer. And don't get me started on how Shallan and Dalinar came across in WoK. 

Kaladin needed to be rescued by others for once and this is important for his progression. Leadership is not doing everything for everyone all the time. A mark of a good leader is that the people under him know how to do their job and support the whole. This is the reason Bridge Four needed to shine in this book as well. 

So with Shallan, Dalinar, and Bridge Four growing, Kaladin's part is going to naturally be smaller. Kaladin needs to be rescued to show how far the others have come. That doesn't make him any less, but I agree it made is progression stall. And that isn't a bad thing. Dalinar progression stalled in WoR and look what we got from him in this book. Brandon is setting up something great for Kaladin later and at the same time is showing us the results of his efforts. Lopen and Teft accending to full knighthood is a credit to their captain's leadership. And though I am a bit annoyed with his fight with Amaram, it is a beautiful thing a when Kaladin says "Bridge Four"  and then Rock saves him. 

However, I agree teasing the fourth ideal of the Windrunners and then not having Kaladin say it is very unsatisfying. I understand why Brandon made this choice.

First off, fans were complaining that Brandon was becoming too predictable with Kaladin swearing oaths. Kaladin would be injured in some way, almost near death. Everyone else would die without him. Kaladin swears oath, levels up, and saves the day. Having him swear the oath here would have been more of the same. 

Secondly, progressing as a Radiant was becoming too easy. I think with Szeth's part in this book, as he was progressing through the Skybreakers, Brandon was showing us something about the oaths. The first three can be reached in a short time, but fourth oath can take a lot longer. It's not uncommon for it to take years. Szeth's will need to go on a quest before he can level up and Shallan didn't pass the fourth level until she accepted terrible truths about herself. She was at level three for several years. The fact that Kaladin has an idea of what the fourth oath is already is a remarkable thing by itself and the failures in this book help him realize the words. Still, just knowing what needs to be done does not give someone the ability to do it. Dalinar knew he needed to unite people without conquering them in the first book. He didn't really learn how to do that until this book. Kaladin will need to learn something more before he can swear the fourth oath. Having him learn it in this book would have been too easy. 

Finally, we have two more books for oath swearing. Holding off the fourth oath of the Windrunners makes narrative sense, especially because this is the book where Kaladin gets saved. If Kaladin said the fourth oath now he would be too powerful too fast. 

I agree the Amaram fight is also frustrating because we have waited three books for it and it was a bit underwhelming. However, I think I know what Brandon was going for. Kaladin starts his vendetta with Amaram after he helplessly watches his men die at Amaram's command. Now Kaladin is saved from Amaram by his men because he made them strong enough to do so. There is a beautiful symmetry in that.

The problem with that fight is Amaram. He hasn't interacted with Kaladin at all in Oathbringer. Their is more conflict between Dalinar and Amaram than Kaladin and Amaram in this book. Kaladin has moved beyond him. He didn't think about Amaram once the entire book. This fight would have had more of an impact in WoR when Kaladin still wanted to fight him. So when the moment comes Amaram is just another bad guy to kill. Oh he is scary and powerful, but so are all the rest of Odium's minions. Part of me wanted Amaram to live so we could see more of him and maybe have that fight I wanted in WoR, but that moment has passed. Amaram is a disappointment as a character. When Rock killed him, I thought their goes the Sons of Honor. Maybe he was always as empty and fake as he projected to others. 

So the fight was unsatisfying. Well get hyped for Moash VS. Kaladin. I have feeling that will be an amazing heartbreaking fight. 

Don't worry. Kaladin is still important. He just got to take it a bit easier in this book. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by eveorjoy

[Starla]

2 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

Also, he did win that fight, fair and square once, then fought off the Fused, then won without even fighting because he had loyal friends where Amaram had none and could never have any. He won by himself first, then won morally the second time, then won by his impact on others the third, defeating Amaram utterly. I don't see how you can see it as a loss at any level

@IndigoAjah Thank you! This is something I wasn't seeing. The progress of Bridge Four, Adolin taking care Kaladin after Kholinar, Syl, Dalinar, Rock saving his butt at the end... all of these things were possible because of his relationship with these people. They care about him. Thinking about Rock specifically, he has always been adamant about not fighting. Despite that, he was willing to put his personal beliefs aside to save Kaladin, no matter the cost to himself. That is true friendship and loyalty which is more important than any amount of fighting skills. Thank you.

@eveorjoy I enjoyed your post. I agree that narratively the fourth oath is best moved to the next book, and the difficulty will make it all the sweeter when it comes, but man was it tough to read in the moment. Perhaps it's the way the scene is written, but you can feel how desperately he wants to help Dalinar, and how painful the memories are of all the people he's lost, and Adolin is bleeding to death beside him. A success in that moment would feel so satisfying. Logically I know it will feel even better later, but it was quite a let down the first read through, like a big build up that fizzled out.

It's interesting, I just began a reread and got to Chapter 7, "Watcher on the Rim." I haven't read this since the preview chapters were released. All of Kaladin's best qualities are on full display in this chapter, and it really shows how far he has come since the pre-third oath days of WOR (which was only a couple weeks earlier). He realizes he can't hate Roshone and instead tries to encourage him to do better, he takes control of the whole house and inspires everyone to act, he talks with Lirin about who he is now and why he is a fighter rather than a surgeon, he holds his baby brother and cries and vows to keep him safe, he reveals himself as Knight Radiant and gives a pep talk to the townsfolk. He is so strong here. I feel that he is still in a similar place at the end of the book, when he is standing watch over Thaylen City, so he hasn't regressed in spite of all his failures between these two events (unlike Shallan, who I think slid backward in this book). We didn't get much inner dialog from him after the battle, but hopefully he has learned from all the failures and an inner growth is happening that we'll see in the next book.

[FollowYourMuse]

I agree that there is more progress than appears, it just was not as explosive. Over and over the message of OD was you fail, and move on, or keep trying, from Shallans talking of bad art, to Dalinars the next step. Even Tefts addictions,  and Ehlokar finally moving forward.  I think even though the story of Fleet was in WoR   this was the Fleet book. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

6 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I agree that there is more progress than appears, it just was not as explosive. Over and over the message of OD was you fail, and move on, or keep trying, from Shallans talking of bad art, to Dalinars the next step. Even Tefts addictions,  and Ehlokar finally moving forward.  I think even though the story of Fleet was in WoR   this was the Fleet book. 

Thats very likely, and it follows the previous pattern. Wandersail was the story of WoK, but it was not fully explored till WoR (Szeth's arc). Although I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the Girl Who Looked Up can be made to fit the next book even more than this one. Maybe by dealing with the issue they discovered this book (parsh were in Roshar first).

[FollowYourMuse]

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Thats very likely, and it follows the previous pattern. Wandersail was the story of WoK, but it was not fully explored till WoR (Szeth's arc). Although I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the Girl Who Looked Up can be made to fit the next book even more than this one. Maybe by dealing with the issue they discovered this book (parsh were in Roshar first).

I agree that part of it will be in dealing with the realization that the Parsh were there first but there is more to that story, it is not that simple.

Some of the Girl looking Up, The girl who Stood up ...  relates to Dalinars challenge to Kadash, and the Vorin church. The changes that are happening with breaking away form Vorin male female arts, and what is a leader and Lighteyes. Szeth will deal with confronting what he was told and taught.  Even Venli will have many of the same challenges. Who is good or bad? Kaladins arc in OB is definitely leading towards letting the failures of the past go.  I think as a world if they want to survive Odium they all need to let the past go.

We know that there were humans on Roshar or at least intermingling with the Parsh before Honor, Cultivation and Odium arrived. 

Quote

HorseCannon

I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188-general-reddit-2015/#e3922

 

 

[Starla]

@FollowYourMuse I love the idea that the next book will be about moving beyond the traditions of the past to do something new and different. One of my favorite things in Oathbringer was Dalinar learning to read and write at the end. It was almost an afterthought, but the implications are huge. I also love that eye color traditions are being turned on their head. With the oathgates open, many different cultures will be mixing and some countries have no concept of eye color pertaining to class. Combine that with the mixing of darkeyed radiants who are now lighteyed and freed parshmen taking control of cities formerly ruled by lighteyes, I don't think the old rules dahn and nahn will be around for much longer. You never know, women might even be able to uncover their safe hand soon!

[FollowYourMuse]

26 minutes ago, Starla said:

You never know, women might even be able to uncover their safe hand soon!

Still waiting to hear how or what started that tradition. 

[Nef]

One thing that OB really delivered for me was the fact that we got to see a lot more of Kaladin through the viewpoint of other characters, something that I wanted more of in WoR . By WoR he had already demonstrated extraordinary acts of heroism and leadership and yet when he showed up in other characters POVs it always seemed strange to me that it was hardly acknowledged. We get a lot of "Kaladin Acknowledgement"  in OB and it really did stir my heart as Kaladin fan.

I did however, also feel a twinge of disappointment when it be came clear that he was going take a more backseat role in OB, but I agree that it also seemed to me that they were saving his progression for later books. Him swearing another oath and saving the day would have been too much of a good thing 3 books in a row, so when he finally does swear his 4th oath its going to be that much sweeter for the wait.

[Willow]

22 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Still waiting to hear how or what started that tradition. 

Actually, we know how that happened from a WoB and it is actually referenced in this book as well. It's a fascinating bit of worldbuilding:

Now if you want to trace back in Rosharan time, there is actually a moment that you can point at and say "this is where it started" and it started right after the Recreance where all these Shardblades and Shardplate were suddenly out there everywhere, and certain people in power wanted to make sure that half the population didn't have access to them, and so they started emphasizing a certain philosophy book that had been written by a woman that said "feminine arts were one-handed, masculine arts were two-handed".

And because of this it became culturally ingrained, which then-- basically it was a misogynistic ploy to keep the women from having the Shardblades, and then in that a certain movement of the women seized writing, and that's when men stopped writing. It's kind of a reciprocation on it. But that's kind of where it went, but it's become much bigger than that, if that makes any sense.

Dalinar mentions in the end of Oathbringer that the men seized shardblades and fighting, and the women took literacy in return. I really hope this breaking down of gender barriers means we'll get to see more women fighting after this, though Kaladin letting the female squires into Bridge Four and Navani's continued development of fabrial tasers were a very good start.

@Nef, Yes I agree about seeing Kaladin from other viewpoints. It's also really interesting when taking into consideration the theme of 'power of perception' that Jasnah and Shallan keep going on about. Kaladin from his own perspective is basically all the things that we like about him as a character, in other perspectives we get to see some of his flaws a little clearer, but on the other hand in certain perspectives he is basically superman. In some ways they're right, and yet in other ways they're so wrong about him. But it does provide a more nuanced (and more interesting) look at his character (same as for other characters we see from multiple perspectives).

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Willow

[FollowYourMuse]

8 minutes ago, Willow said:

Actually, we know how that happened from a WoB and it is actually referenced in this book as well. It's a fascinating bit of worldbuilding:

Thanks I had missed that WoB! 

 

[Pattern]

On 18.11.2017 at 11:05 PM, Starla said:

I agree that narratively the fourth oath is best moved to the next book, and the difficulty will make it all the sweeter when it comes, but man was it tough to read in the moment.

I am not sure whether Kaladin will swear the fourth oath at all now. We don't know what the oath would be and it might go against his principles. Compare to Chapter 86 epigraph:

Quote

My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?

- From drawer 10-12, sapphire

The old Knight Radiant seems to have been in a similar spot as Kaladin where he wasn't able to swear the Fourth Ideal.
In Oathbringer it also got clear that the interpretation of the oaths depends strongly on perception of what is right and wrong and on keeping oaths. With Kaladin's surgeon apprentice background I see many conflicts if the Fourth Ideal goes against helping people, as somewhat implied in the epigraph.

If the Fourth Ideal were "just" about accepting failures and getting up again, it would not be so difficult. Knowing the words and not saying then, Kaladin is assaulted by memories of loved ones he has lost. I suspect something of focussing on the living/the "greater good" and forgetting the dead / the individuals being in the Fouth Ideal and therefore very difficult for someone who wants to /has sworn to help anyone needing help (->surgeon). Although Kaladin has progressed from surgeon apprentice to Knight Radiant, his very core is helping people. If the Fourth Ideal is against that, Kaladin should well deny it.

As we have seen now, not all about the Knights Radiant is good. Even strict adherence to oaths is not always good, it is just of Honor.

For Kaladin's character development it could well be the best to say. "No, I cannot and I don't want to swear this Ideal. If you want me to progress, find another Ideal."

Edited November 20, 2017 by Pattern

[Starla]

@Pattern It’s an interesting point you make, but I don’t foresee Kaladin stalling at the third ideal. From the tidbits we received it this book, it seem the fourth and fifth ideals are more personal than the first three. They certainly seem more difficult. In Kaladin’s case, I think they will require an inner growth rather than an external promise like we saw with the two protection ideals. I think it will require a transformation in behavior and thought process in a way that is very personal to him. 

As I mentioned previously, I think his big hindrance is related to not letting go of people he’s lost. Accepting the failure of losing people might not be a big deal to most people, but it is a huge deal to him. He collects guilt like Shallan collects personalities.  These deaths have built up inside him until he completely froze in battle at a crucial moment when he saw his friends killing each other. As a Windrunner, he can't live up to his ideals to protect if he freezes or breaks down in battle when people die. He'll have to get past this issue to move forward as a Windrunner, including fulfilling the first three ideals he has already sworn. 

There was a quote from a TV show I watched recently, in which a character said “If you let yourself be affected by every death, you can never save a life.” I think this is the big realization he needs to make. He cannot fully protect or lead if he is weighed down by heavy guilt and grief. He seems to have already figured out the words, now he just needs to make the inner change to align himself with the oath. He can only do his best to protect and let the rest go. I don't think this is opposition to what Lirin taught him a surgeon, I think it is in total alignment with it.

Regarding this line from your post:

10 hours ago, Pattern said:

For Kaladin's character development it could well be the best to say. "No, I cannot and I don't want to swear this Ideal. If you want me to progress, find another Ideal."

I don’t believe there is a “you” outside of Kaladin (or any Radiant) to find another ideal for him. The oaths are self-perceived and he’s the one who needs to find it and live up to it. I don’t think Syl can make up his oaths and Honor is dead. So Kaladin needs to find his own ideals and transform himself to embody them. If he doesn’t do this his character will become stagnant and that’s no fun to read (plus I really want to see that shardplate). 

[Awesomness]

Remember Kaladin is close to the fourth ideal, but also he is beginning to understand how hard it is to live up to the oaths and knows it will be very difficult.

That moment when he attracts windspren in shadesmar, and communicates with Syl in his mind, he was thinking about his previous oaths and the responsibilities implied. 

It must be something deeply personal. I'm really intrigued.