Argent

theory
[OB] Cusicesh, the Unmade

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Hmm... that actually made me wonder. Brandon said that there is a level of spren between Stormfather level power and "sapient spren," by which I assume he means radiant spren. He specifically calls Cusicesh out as being of this level.

My question is this:  where are the unmade's power levels in reason to the Stormfather/Nightwatcher?  Do they fit that description?

If so,  is it possible that Brandon had the unmade in mind when he bright up that gradation in spren levels?

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I don't have any evidence against this, but I do wonder what, then, Cusicesh would do. Apart from the "draining people" there seems to not be much danger coming from it, and in fact it's an attraction in the area. I'd think that if an Unmade was doing stuff there, there'd be more signs than just "some creature appears every day and then disappears again".

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Just an interesting observation, Cusicesh is said to cycle through a number of different faces, perhaps a link to 'The Faceless'?

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51 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

Just an interesting observation, Cusicesh is said to cycle through a number of different faces, perhaps a link to 'The Faceless'?

More like The Faceful:P

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There's one other aspect to the theory worth mentioning, which is that Cusicesh is imprisoning an Unmade (or some to that effect). He is known as Cusicesh the Protector. There's some more details in the linked theory.

Considering Unmade are normally trapped in gems, this seems more doubtful now. But worth considering I think.

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7 minutes ago, jofwu said:

There's one other aspect to the theory worth mentioning, which is that Cusicesh is imprisoning an Unmade (or some to that effect). He is known as Cusicesh the Protector. There's some more details in the linked theory.

Considering Unmade are normally trapped in gems, this seems more doubtful now. But worth considering I think.

Trapped in the Aimian oathgate gems perhaps?

The mention of a map of Aimia suggests we will visit it.

Edited by ScavellTane
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11 hours ago, Seonid said:

My question is this:  where are the unmade's power levels in reason to the Stormfather/Nightwatcher?  Do they fit that description?

There Unmade and the Stormfather are "on a similar level".

11 hours ago, Leyrann said:

I don't have any evidence against this, but I do wonder what, then, Cusicesh would do.

I kind of forgot to talk about this (though it's not entirely in the purview of this theory refresher), but I had been working under the assumption that Cusicesh is a weakened form of Dai-Gonarthis. You know how Re-shephir splits off pieces of herself (a little bit like creating Splinters of herself, though she herself is a Splinter) - well, if one were to trap those, Re-shephir would have less essence to work with, she'd less of herself; or like Ruin was weakened by stowing away a good chunk of his Investiture away from himself. I imagine Dai-Gonarthis was similarly weakened, which is why people around him experience only a vague feeling of being drained instead of, I don't know, a compulsive desire to fall on the ground and never get up?

8 hours ago, DracostarA said:

Just an interesting observation, Cusicesh is said to cycle through a number of different faces, perhaps a link to 'The Faceless'?

Jezrien/Ahu mentions both the Black Fisher (which I like for one of Dai-Gonarthis' names, which in turn I like for Cusicesh) and "the Faceless" in the same breath, so I doubt they are the same entity.

6 hours ago, jofwu said:

There's one other aspect to the theory worth mentioning, which is that Cusicesh is imprisoning an Unmade (or some to that effect). He is known as Cusicesh the Protector. There's some more details in the linked theory.

Considering Unmade are normally trapped in gems, this seems more doubtful now. But worth considering I think.

Yeah, I thought about that, and I couldn't figure out a way to make it work. The closest I came to this was Timbre trapping the voidspren that gave Venli her envoyform, but that presumably also made use of Venli's gemheart. So unless there is a gemstone sitting somewhere in Kasitor (or maybe in Kasitor Bay) where Cusicesh the Protector and Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher are locked in an eternal battle, I don't see how this would work.

6 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Trapped in the Aimian oathgate gems perhaps?

The mention of a map of Aimia suggests we will visit it.

This feels too random to me. Aimia is 100% going to be important in the future, but I don't think this is its place in the plot.

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38 minutes ago, Argent said:

Yeah, I thought about that, and I couldn't figure out a way to make it work. The closest I came to this was Timbre trapping the voidspren that gave Venli her envoyform, but that presumably also made use of Venli's gemheart. So unless there is a gemstone sitting somewhere in Kasitor (or maybe in Kasitor Bay) where Cusicesh the Protector and Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher are locked in an eternal battle, I don't see how this would work.

If it's true, it would certainly be something very different than what we've seen so far. I don't see anything wrong with the idea that one spren could trap another... There's just not a precedent for it.

I liked that spin on the theory because of the apparently weakened state of the [theorized] Unmade and because of the "Protector" title. But these could certainly be explained away now that we know they can be weakened/captured in other ways, and assuming the title is mistaken or twisted with time.

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When it comes to Dai-gonarthis vs. Cusicesh, I'm largely inclined to disagree on the basis of the evidence provided.  What's below are my counterpoints:

  • The Unmade are not the only entities that have caused a 'drained' effect to manifest after contact.  The Stormfather has also left this condition in his wake, with the members of Bridge Thirteen, when Dalinar and Navani swear to each other (p62 hardback).
  • Cusicesh is always looking toward the Origin.  This seems like a strange action for any of the Unmade to perform, as the Origin is heavily associated with Honor and the Stormfather both.  While we don't know a great deal about the Origin itself, it doesn't fit what we know about the Unmade in general, that being the Unmade are drawn to dark and unpleasant emotions or events.  Cusicesh remaining stationary for millennia seems odd without having been trapped in a perfect gem.  (There appears to be an implication where Odium can draw or order the Unmade to specific locations, but that still wouldn't explain Cusicesh remaining stationary while manifesting a form seen in the Physical Realm.)
  • The Physical appearance of Cusicesh is different from the Unmade.  I don't think I need to belabor this point at all.  Even Sja-anat, who is likely to go off on her own, still revealed herself to be of a black hue.  I'm not sure if Nergaoul is an oddity with respect to appearance, but the colors black, violet, and red have all been associated with Odium in the forms of the Unmade, Voidlight, and glowing eyes.
  • The existence of Dai-gonarthis has been corroborated by a Death Rattle and (indirectly) by Jezrien.  I feel confident in saying this because of a thread on Dai-gonarthis I'm slowly working on, but my point is that the Black Fisher is active in the world and has been linked to deterioration in mental state (Jezrien all but confirmed this).  There haven't been indications of this linked to Cusicesh.  If Cusicesh was one of the Unmade, why is there no indication of degradation or death in Iriali society?  You might be saying that Iri being under enemy control nearly from the start is proof enough, but I can just as easily state that Rall Elorim is where the focus should be, for multiple reasons, rather than Kasitor (where Axies and Cusicesh were).  (As an aside, Iri would be one of the first places for the Fused to manifest with the Everstorm, so it makes sense it would be one of the first places in the world to be taken over.)

That said, I've been wondering about Cusicesh as well, because of the apparent Connecting and the manifestation of faces, similar to Re-Shephir, but I'll note that none of those faces seemed to exhibit signs of torment.  I'm just not convinced because everything we've learned about the Unmade is strangely absent here.  Cusicesh is called The Protector.  Why that is, is what we should be wondering about.

Edited by dvoraen
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On 11/18/2017 at 3:08 PM, dvoraen said:

When it comes to Dai-gonarthis vs. Cusicesh, I'm largely inclined to disagree on the basis of the evidence provided.  What's below are my counterpoints:

  • The Unmade are not the only entities that have caused a 'drained' effect to manifest after contact.  The Stormfather has also left this condition in his wake, with the members of Bridge Thirteen, when Dalinar and Navani swear to each other (p62 hardback).
  • Cusicesh is always looking toward the Origin.  This seems like a strange action for any of the Unmade to perform, as the Origin is heavily associated with Honor and the Stormfather both.  While we don't know a great deal about the Origin itself, it doesn't fit what we know about the Unmade in general, that being the Unmade are drawn to dark and unpleasant emotions or events.  Cusicesh remaining stationary for millennia seems odd without having been trapped in a perfect gem.  (There appears to be an implication where Odium can draw or order the Unmade to specific locations, but that still wouldn't explain Cusicesh remaining stationary while manifesting a form seen in the Physical Realm.)
  • The Physical appearance of Cusicesh is different from the Unmade.  I don't think I need to belabor this point at all.  Even Sja-anat, who is likely to go off on her own, still revealed herself to be of a black hue.  I'm not sure if Nergaoul is an oddity with respect to appearance, but the colors black, violet, and red have all been associated with Odium in the forms of the Unmade, Voidlight, and glowing eyes.
  • The existence of Dai-gonarthis has been corroborated by a Death Rattle and (indirectly) by Jezrien.  I feel confident in saying this because of a thread on Dai-gonarthis I'm slowly working on, but my point is that the Black Fisher is active in the world and has been linked to deterioration in mental state (Jezrien all but confirmed this).  There haven't been indications of this linked to Cusicesh.  If Cusicesh was one of the Unmade, why is there no indication of degradation or death in Iriali society?  You might be saying that Iri being under enemy control nearly from the start is proof enough, but I can just as easily state that Rall Elorim is where the focus should be, for multiple reasons, rather than Kasitor (where Axies and Cusicesh were).  (As an aside, Iri would be one of the first places for the Fused to manifest with the Everstorm, so it makes sense it would be one of the first places in the world to be taken over.)

That said, I've been wondering about Cusicesh as well, because of the apparent Connecting and the manifestation of faces, similar to Re-Shephir, but I'll note that none of those faces seemed to exhibit signs of torment.  I'm just not convinced because everything we've learned about the Unmade is strangely absent here.  Cusicesh is called The Protector.  Why that is, is what we should be wondering about.

I feel like this is actually pointing to Cusicesh as The Sibling perhaps? There's so much important stuff that I feel is just outside our grasp, but it does seem to fit what we know.

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I wondered if Cusicesh is at all related to Puuli's interlude.  They don't really have anything in common other than watching towards the origin, but it seemed a little suspicious to me.  I'm only basing that on the idea that many of the old stories of Roshar seem to have some kind of truth to them.  Here's the relevant part of the interlude:

Quote

They’ll come with Light in their pockets, Grandfather had said. They’ll come to destroy, but you should watch for them anyway. Because they’ll come from the Origin. The sailors lost on an infinite sea. You keep that fire high at night, Puuli. You burn it bright until the day they come.

They’ll arrive when the night is darkest.

 

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9 hours ago, Ryder said:

I wondered if Cusicesh is at all related to Puuli's interlude.  They don't really have anything in common other than watching towards the origin, but it seemed a little suspicious to me.  I'm only basing that on the idea that many of the old stories of Roshar seem to have some kind of truth to them.  Here's the relevant part of the interlude:

 

This is what I've been wondering about myself, as well.  Iri seems to have a fixation on reading the tides and whatnot, so this interlude was rather surprising to introduce and made a bit more sense with respect to Cusicesh having a water motif.

 

It made me wonder if we'll be seeing human souls that can't die, that were Invested by Odium.  I have to go looking for the specific page, but there was a mention somewhere about how the Origin might well be a seal of its own.

Edited by dvoraen
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12 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

I feel like this is actually pointing to Cusicesh as The Sibling perhaps? There's so much important stuff that I feel is just outside our grasp, but it does seem to fit what we know.

The Sibling mentioned in the Radiant records is the Stormfather in the midst of merging with Honor.

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54 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

The Sibling mentioned in the Radiant records is the Stormfather in the midst of merging with Honor.

I don't think this is right - firstly because the Stormfather himself refers to a 3rd sibling and tells Dalinar to "leave them alone" - because humans have hurt this entity enough already. Also, the Stormfather already existed, he was simply altered upon Honor's death - presumably getting more investiture as Honour was dying.

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it would be interesting if Cusicech is the last of his power level-spren, and the other 9 were turned into the unnmade. 

 

Another question is that the shards seem to have made a promise to mix powers infrequently. Did cultivation give the land to Honour and she then took the water for herself ?  The ocean has greatshekls, magic purelake fish, and yadda yadda. What else does the water hold? 

Edited by teknopathetic
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So I, like the dummy I am, asked Brandon about this - and got RAFO'd. Naturally.

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1 hour ago, Argent said:

So I, like the dummy I am, asked Brandon about this - and got RAFO'd. Naturally.

Yes, but did he smirk when saying RAFO?

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1 hour ago, The Invested Beard said:

Yes, but did he smirk when saying RAFO?

It was a pretty neutral RAFO. He did ask me if had a lexicon for all my RAFO cards, which was fun, but it got me nowhere with this theory. I'll probably focus my efforts elsewhere...

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48 minutes ago, Argent said:

It was a pretty neutral RAFO. He did ask me if had a lexicon for all my RAFO cards, which was fun, but it got me nowhere with this theory. I'll probably focus my efforts elsewhere...

Yeah there's definitely some nugget of major importance here. Poker face RAFO is a dead giveaway.

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My major issue with this theory is that Axies appeared to know very little about the spren when we first meet him in Kasitor.  If Dai- Gonarthis directly or indirectly led to the "destruction" of Aimia (“destruction,” in quotes because the Kaza Interlude in Oathbringer hints that Aimia might not be as destroyed as the reader was initially led to believe) and is now known as (ironically) Cusicesh, the Protector, then it seems our Aimian spren-expert's thoughts would have touched upon that, if even just briefly.

Aimia wasn’t “destroyed” until after the Final Desolation, and we know from Axies and Arclo's comments that Aimians are very long-lived (I believe WoB is that they are “basically immortal”); Arclo even claims to be alive before the Last Desolation.  Therefore, at least Arclo would have likely been around when Dai Gonarthis “destroyed” Aimia, and would likely be aware if the “destroyer” of Aimia had -devolved? diminished? - into what was now commonly known as “Cusicesh, The Protector.”  And if at least some Aimians were aware that this large spren in Kasitor Bay was the current form of the “destroyer” of Aimia, wouldn’t it be likely that an Aimian who “made it his life’s work to observe, catalogue, and study every single type of spren in Roshar” like Axies would be aware of this?

Instead, Axies thoughts reflect someone who is reviewing an academic curiosity:

Quote

They called it by name, Cusicesh, the Protector… It was unique.  One of the few types of spren he knew of that seemed to have only a single member.

Quote

But what kind of spren is it?  Axies wrote, fascinated.  It has formed a face, looking eastward.  Directly toward the Origin.  That face is shifting, bewilderingly quick.  Different human faces appear on the end of its stumplike neck, one after another in blurred succession. 

The display lasted a full ten minutes.  Did any of the faces repeat?

(Both quotes from WoK, I-5, Axies the Collector)

In my opinion, Axies almost complete unfamiliarity with Cusicesh makes it unlikely that this spren is the current form of Dai Gonarthis, or any Unmade for that matter.

Edited by KiManiak
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Now, I know it sounds silly, but someone else in OB actually shifted faces, and that was, well, no other than Shallan. I would not be very surprised if Cuicesh was Shallan traveling back in time after, say, losing Adolin to the Origin.

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20 minutes ago, echaozh said:

Now, I know it sounds silly, but someone else in OB actually shifted faces, and that was, well, no other than Shallan. I would not be very surprised if Cuicesh was Shallan traveling back in time after, say, losing Adolin to the Origin.

I thought about Shallan doing this just like Cusicesh! I wonder how this is similar.

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On 11/24/2017 at 3:21 PM, teknopathetic said:

it would be interesting if Cusicech is the last of his oower level-spren, and the other 9 were turned into the unnmade. 

This was pretty much what I was thinking. Cusicech is the type of spren that the Unmade were unmade from. That could account for both the similarities and the differences.

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On 11/20/2017 at 2:28 PM, The Invested Beard said:

I feel like this is actually pointing to Cusicesh as The Sibling perhaps? There's so much important stuff that I feel is just outside our grasp, but it does seem to fit what we know.

I was thinking about that. I came to this thought seperately and found this thread looking for Wobs about him.

On 11/21/2017 at 3:45 AM, PhineasGage said:

I don't think this is right - firstly because the Stormfather himself refers to a 3rd sibling and tells Dalinar to "leave them alone" - because humans have hurt this entity enough already. Also, the Stormfather already existed, he was simply altered upon Honor's death - presumably getting more investiture as Honour was dying.

This may be what makes it do the daily routine, Its mind being broken from a bond, or possibly dreaming or asleep like Syl was.

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