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[OB] Azure's Identity (+Warbreaker spoilers)

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I would doubt that Vasher has completely lost his extra breath, though he could have given it away or had it consumed by Nightblood. In this case, he would be trapped on Roshar unless he could get back to Nalthis and get an extra breath in a week.

We also saw Hoid Awaken a rag doll to find the little girl. He then changed the doll's command and left it with her.

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Probably. But I suspect she might actually be Siri. She talks about abandoning her duty to rule, but Vivenna never really had one to begin with. She was raised from birth to be married to the god king, and then went off on her Siri-rescue mission before having so much as a conversation with her father about taking over the throne.

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1 hour ago, kmosiman said:

I would doubt that Vasher has completely lost his extra breath, though he could have given it away or had it consumed by Nightblood. In this case, he would be trapped on Roshar unless he could get back to Nalthis and get an extra breath in a week.

We also saw Hoid Awaken a rag doll to find the little girl. He then changed the doll's command and left it with her.

It's implied heavily in book 2 that stormlight works the same as breath as far as fuel for his immortality (or using Nightblood)

Edited by Bacon
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How do we know for certain that it is Vivenna and not Siri or some other random Nalthis character for that matter. My first instinct was that it was Vivenna and that only got stronger as we learned more about her, but I never got full proof or solid confirmation that it 100% was her. I'm wondering how people have come to that conclusion and what I missed.

Edited by ggscv
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2 minutes ago, ggscv said:

How do we know for certain that it is Vivenna and not Siri or some other random Nalthis character for that matter. My first instinct was that it was Vivenna and that only as we learned more about her, but I never got full proof or solid confirmation that it 100% was her. I'm wondering how people have come to that conclusion and what I missed.

The main reason is this WoB:

Quote

Q: What happened to Vivenna?

A: She's looking for Vasher. Keep your eyes wide open when reading Oathbringer.

So, if she's not Azure, then Brandon is trolling us. :P

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Destroy is to me the problematic part of Nightblood's command, after all a regular shardblade only severs the soul, while Nightblood destroys it and on all 3 realms just to top it off! For me this is probably an big part of the difference between Nightblood and Vivenna's blade.

Another big reason for why it is Vivenna is that Vasher in Warbreaker did not teach Siri or anyone else how to fight only Vivenna, he traveled with Vivenna afterwards, and Azure where given the same education as Aidolin and the one that Kaladin started. Azure have the royal hair, did any of you note that she where able to take color for her hair in place of anything on or around her when she awakens objects! Kaladin notes her hair shifts to Gray when she where ready for an fight with her cloak around her arm the same one that where hanging down in a wrong way! Considering hair isn't alive only the roots are, this is consistent with awakening lore!

Question did she ever call herself an bounty hunter or state she where there to capture the criminals? If I remember correctly she stated she where hunting an criminal and an associate of this criminal. It is totally possible that Vasher went to Rosar to get away from everyone and Vivinna is trying to find him again. It is totally believable that Vasher ran away while Vivinna where out of the house so to say.

Edited by MalcolmRay
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So just a wild unresearched theory, but could Azure's sword, instead of taking investiture from the user simply steal it from anyone it contacts (them going grey similar to when Nightblood is used without excess investiture). I have literally (and I don't mean that figuratively) done no research on the idea beyond reading this thread on the subject so I don't know if its original or has already been proven false, but it came to mind as a neat idea.

Edited by Isillor
To make thoughts clearer
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Welcome to the shard. That is an interesting idea.

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I have proposed it on Discord already:

What if Azure is actually Vivenna Returned? What if she died and Endowment Returned her and - uniquely - gave her back her memories and sent her hunting for Nightblood and Vasher?

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I suppose it's possible but it seems like it would be an unnecessary complication, based on what we know right now. 'Azure' doesn't do anything that Vivenna couldn't do or learn to do as of the last time we see her. Here's an interesting bit from the Warbreaker annotations:

Quote

Can Vivenna change her appearance more? She can indeed. She could actually stoke that fragment of a divine Breath inside of her and start glowing like a Returned. She can't change her physical features to look like someone else, but she can change her age, her height (within reason), and her body shape (to an extent). It takes practice.

Which seems to cover her disappearing scar and possibly her not looking that much older than her age in Warbreaker. There is the performance of the Wall Guard and one member (I forget who) claiming that with her they fought like the spren were behind them, but that could have to do with Awakening tricks we don't currently know much about (Vasher being able to alter memory, for instance). She's also got a slightly extended lifespan assuming she has the exact same Breath store she ended Warbreaker with (Second Heightening and we know the First was enough to extend life by around a decade) and her brother-in-law could probably loan her more if she needed them for some reason. Or she could learn whatever trick Demoux, Baon, Khriss and Nazh use. So if there's enough time passing between stories that require her to dramatically extend her lifespan, she's got ways to do it without needing to be a Returned. And since she does have her full memories, we'd need some evidence for why she's the exception to the rule before I'd start to warm up to it.

I do like the idea that Vasher was Returned as part of a long-range plan by Endowment involving what's going on in Stormlight Archive but I'm not as sure on Vivenna. That said, I don't know what else you might have said on Discord so... hit me with your best shot. :D

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57 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I do like the idea that Vasher was Returned as part of a long-range plan by Endowment involving what's going on in Stormlight Archive but I'm not as sure on Vivenna

I'm not sure why this never occurred to me, or why I've missed discussion if it's around here, but given what we now know about Cultivation and the Nightwatcher, it makes more sense than ever. Endowment can see the future, as can people after they've died but before they Return. This is a much longer game than what we saw with Dalinar, but we also know Nightblood and Vasher were originally part of this story and Warbreaker was essentially the backstory just for them. 

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4 hours ago, Weltall said:

I suppose it's possible but it seems like it would be an unnecessary complication, based on what we know right now.

Ah, it's just a random thought, not a theory. Azure being simply Vivenna is more reasonable and makes fewer assumptions, which makes it more prefered explanation by Occam's Razor.

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RE: Why Azure's blade behaves differently from Nightblood. I think it just isn't as Invested (and has a different Command). 

Nightblood [email protected]#$&ing DANGEROUS, so any attempt to recreate a similar Awakened object would necessarily include changes to the plan--a different Command and less Investiture both seeming likely modifications.

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3 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

RE: Why Azure's blade behaves differently from Nightblood. I think it just isn't as Invested (and has a different Command). 

Nightblood [email protected]#$&ing DANGEROUS, so any attempt to recreate a similar Awakened object would necessarily include changes to the plan--a different Command and less Investiture both seeming likely modifications.

The problem here is that Nightblood was awakened with 1000 breaths and had always been far more invested than those breaths account for. 

I don't disagree that Azure's blade is less invested... There's just more going on with Nightblood than we have answers for. 

I don't think they could accurately recreate Nightblood if they tried. 

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11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think they could accurately recreate Nightblood if they tried. 

You'd be right.

Quote

Megasif [PENDING REVIEW]
In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

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Well I'm pretty sure we can at least say the sword has a mind, since Azure refers to it as 'she' at least once. I suppose it's possible that it's in the same way as other things like ships that are referred to as male/female without any good reason, but that doesn't seem terribly likely to me.

I thought it was a sweet moment, but really Hoid, how much Breath do you have to just use it to make a nifty toy for a little girl? I imagine Azure has quite a lot too, since she was asking for cloth-people cutouts in bulk to fight the Fused.

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On 11/18/2017 at 4:41 AM, Strabe said:

The real question is:

  Hide contents

Why is she hunting Zahel and calling him a criminal? At the end of Warbreaker they are at least companions.

 

I can take a guess at this. We see in OB that she has a very Nightblood-esque sword. I think Vasher stole Nightblood from her because she was trying to duplicate the sword. Or at least, create a new version of him.

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I see everyone asking why she's hunting zahel.

I'm not so sure she is. I think the "criminal" she is hunting for is Nightblood or Wit.

Otherwise she would have asked more questions about Kal and Adolins practicing zahels kata.

She talks a little on "burdens"that she sat down as she touches her hilt. I think she's literally referring to setting down Nightblood.

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Could Vasher have stolen a shardblade to make Nightblood and even though it was dead when he got it, it was once alive. Or was this answered somewhere and I just missed it?

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56 minutes ago, Angsos said:

Could Vasher have stolen a shardblade to make Nightblood and even though it was dead when he got it, it was once alive. Or was this answered somewhere and I just missed it?

I think stealing a Shardblade would be very difficult, even for someone as accomplished as Vasher.

Or do you mean, Was Nightblood previously a Rosharan Shardblade?

If that's what you meant, then definitely not.  Investiture resists investiture, and Shardblades are heavily invested already. 

Plus there's a WoB:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

If you were to try and Awaken a dead Shardblade with Awakening, like you can with a metal sword, would that be possible, or what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That would probably not work. Not probably. That would just not work.

source

 

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I'm confused why Azure/Vivenna went separate ways with the others in Shadesmar. I would have thought that once she found out they knew Zahel/Vasher, she would have remained with them since they knew where he was. I would have also thought that Kaladin would have mentioned that he knew where he was to try to get her to go with them.

She comes to a strange planet searching for someone, by random chance runs into some people who have a lead on where this someone is, and then leaves them without asking many questions.

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56 minutes ago, Roocifer said:

I'm confused why Azure/Vivenna went separate ways with the others in Shadesmar. I would have thought that once she found out they knew Zahel/Vasher, she would have remained with them since they knew where he was. I would have also thought that Kaladin would have mentioned that he knew where he was to try to get her to go with them.

She comes to a strange planet searching for someone, by random chance runs into some people who have a lead on where this someone is, and then leaves them without asking many questions.

Most likely because its not actually vasher she is hunting

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58 minutes ago, Roocifer said:

I'm confused why Azure/Vivenna went separate ways with the others in Shadesmar. I would have thought that once she found out they knew Zahel/Vasher, she would have remained with them since they knew where he was. I would have also thought that Kaladin would have mentioned that he knew where he was to try to get her to go with them.

She comes to a strange planet searching for someone, by random chance runs into some people who have a lead on where this someone is, and then leaves them without asking many questions.

First up, welcome to the Shard :)

I got the impression that she is less interested in finding Vasher, and more so on finding Nightblood. My guess is she knows the Honourspren have information she seeks, hence the talk of a trade.

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1 hour ago, Roocifer said:

I'm confused why Azure/Vivenna went separate ways with the others in Shadesmar. I would have thought that once she found out they knew Zahel/Vasher, she would have remained with them since they knew where he was. I would have also thought that Kaladin would have mentioned that he knew where he was to try to get her to go with them.

She comes to a strange planet searching for someone, by random chance runs into some people who have a lead on where this someone is, and then leaves them without asking many questions.

She's far more interested in NIghtblood than in Vasher.  Ironic, since if she had stayed, she would have found him :(

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