[OB] Midius's sketches

[kari-no-sugata]

From the end of chapter 121:

Quote

They caused a stir in the refugees, and someone detached themselves from the group of scribes up ahead. A woman in deep violet. The Blackthorn’s niece. She looked at Ash, then at Taln, then at a piece of paper she’d been carrying. It contained shockingly accurate sketches of the two of them. Not as they were presented in iconography, but real sketches. Who . . . why?

That’s his drawing style, a part of Ash noted. Why has Midius been giving away pictures of us?

So, Jasnah has probably just bagged two Heralds but that's not the subject of this post. Who is Midius?

Midius is probably a reference to Hoid:

In chapter 53 we also have this:

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I will provide you with sketches of the Heralds, Jasnah said. I have drawings of their true faces, provided by an unexpected source. Ethid, you are right about them. They aren’t going to be a resource; they’re broken. Have you read the accounts of my uncle’s visions?

So, why would Hoid provide sketches of them? It seems unusually cooperative of him.

 

There is another possibility though:

Quote

He sighed as Navani stood and walked to him, taking his arm. “I’ll need to try to do sketches from memory of each of those Honorblades—or better, send Shallan to do it. Perhaps we can use the drawings to locate the others.”

We also see the Heralds in the visions as well, eg chapter 42. So it's possible that the sketches that Jasnah has are actually from Shallan and the "unexpected source" is the visions rather than Hoid? But then why do her drawings resemble Hoid's art style? Well, Shallan did develop her art style heavily from Dandos the Oilsworn and basically nobody else. So is it possible that Dandos was actually Hoid? I should note that Dandos has been name-dropped in all 3 SA books so far which is rather unusual. Incidentally, Jasnah has sketches of both Heralds and Taln wouldn't have been seen in the visions so does this mean Shallan told Jasnah about her meeting with Taln in WoR and sketched him from that?

I can't say I'm confident about this Shallan theory but it is just about plausible. It would certainly be simpler for Hoid to give sketches to Jasnah though. But then, wouldn't it have been better for him to do that sooner rather than later? Why now?

Either way, it's an interesting though minor little thing...

[Steeldancer]

Midius is Hoid. But why the heck does Ash know that name? And I'm surprised it was canonized

[FirstSelector]

She also swears by Adonalsium, which is suspicious.  I would guess that the Heralds took up the Oathpact very soon after the Shattering, and maybe even knew about Yolen.

I won't go so far as to suggest that Yolen was the planet that was "destroyed by Surgebinding," but it is certainly suggestive.

[Wandering Investor]

Midius was Hoid's name in an unpublished work. During that story, he abandoned that name and started using Hoid. Interesting to see the name canonized.

Jasnah likely received the sketches at the end of WoR.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[FirstSelector]

Of all of the scenes in the cosmere, I want to see the one where Hoid and Jasnah discuss the fate of Roshar.

On that note, I wonder if she will retain him as the Queen's Wit?  She hardly needs it...

[Storyspren]

29 minutes ago, FirstSelector said:

She also swears by Adonalsium, which is suspicious.  I would guess that the Heralds took up the Oathpact very soon after the Shattering, and maybe even knew about Yolen.

I won't go so far as to suggest that Yolen was the planet that was "destroyed by Surgebinding," but it is certainly suggestive.

So suspicious. First Hoid checks to see if Dalinar recognizes the word Adonalsium. Now a herald swears by Adonalsium.

Add to that Hoid saying there is a God who swears by HIM (Hoid/Wit etc.), I’m now firmly in the camp of Hoid held Adonalsium at least at one point but the Heralds don’t know that.

Wouldnt be surprised if Shallan, unbeknownst to her caught a Herald in her drawings somewhere. (Did she ever draw Vasher?) But it seems like Hoid provided the sketches. (Thus poking a big hole in my “hoid is an illusion” pet theory.)

[dvoraen]

31 minutes ago, FirstSelector said:

Of all of the scenes in the cosmere, I want to see the one where Hoid and Jasnah discuss the fate of Roshar.

On that note, I wonder if she will retain him as the Queen's Wit?  She hardly needs it...

I rather doubt Hoid will end up offering his services to Jasnah as Wit.  As you said, she hardly needs it.  Jasnah strikes me as far more likely to pluck out a random lighteyes she dislikes and manipulate that person into getting him- / herself killed with their "insults".

Edited November 18, 2017 by dvoraen

[aemetha]

44 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

I’m now firmly in the camp of Hoid held Adonalsium at least at one point but the Heralds don’t know that.

I don't think this is the case. From the chapter 38 epigraph (emphasis mine).

Quote

Your skills are admirable, but you are merely a man. You had your chance to be more, and refused it.

Note, refused, not gave up is the phrasing used.

Edited November 18, 2017 by aemetha

[Storyspren]

1 minute ago, aemetha said:

I don't think this is the case. From the chapter 38 Interlude (emphasis mine).

Note, refused, not gave up is the phrasing used.

See, my thought is that even the other original gods after the splinter/who killed adolnalsium were being tricked by Midius at the time. So they don’t know he held Adolnalsium. Literally only Hoid would know, on this theory. “So he conspired to kill himself?” Yes, that’s the theory, or held the power at some other time than for the god-murder, unbeknownst to the other murderers.

[dantlee]

I think it's pretty clear that Hoid knows at least some of the Heralds personally, given his response to Shallan asking whether he was one himself (replying that they were but babes compared to him), his greeting to Taln, and Ash knowing his LoP name. 

[LiquidBlue]

I thought that Shallan made the sketches after being brought into the vision of the heralds abandoning the oathpact.

 

But that wouldn't explain the picture of Taln unless she saw him in the war camps or had very good description given to her by those that did.

 

Ash's thought suggested to me that Oilbringer(Is that the name of the famous artist whose style Shallan learned from?) is another of Hoid's aliases.

 

 

 

[Darvys]

Weren't there true depictions of the Heralds in Urithiru in the pit where Re-Shefir was lurking ? I don't think Ash knows the tower was reclaimed, so it would be natural to assume that the sketches were shared by the one being on Roshar who's both old enough to know them and has the skill to make them.

[Dahak]

5 hours ago, LiquidBlue said:

I thought that Shallan made the sketches after being brought into the vision of the heralds abandoning the oathpact.

But that wouldn't explain the picture of Taln unless she saw him in the war camps or had very good description given to her by those that did.

While I'm reasonably sure Jasnah got those picturesfrom Hoid. Shallan did go and see Taln at Mraize's instructions. Iyatil pretended to be mad.

[emailanimal]

My money is on Hoid. Midius is one of his other names.  He spent a certain period of time walking around with Jasnah trading information.  Jasnah appears to know a great deal more than a lot of others (the secret that broke the knights radiant isn't really a secret to her). She came back with a clear and strong interest in Heralds (even if her first intent is to kill one and send them to Braize). 

 

As to why Heralds know Hoid. This is interesting.  There are two possibilities. (a) Hoid may have had something to do with the Oathpact, or may have been around Roshar when it happened. I.e., essentially, they know of his connection to Honor/Yolen/etc... (b) They met during the very long time they got to fight in Desolations, and later while in the hiding.

 

Why Hoid is doing it?  Oathbringer pops a hood on what he is doing. I think Brandon is being very deliberate here. There've been a lot of conversations about Hoid, and some scenes in Secret History paint him in a somewhat more sinister light. I think Brandon has decided to hive us a "pet the dog" moments with Hoid in this book to alleviate some of our worst suspicions.  Given this... the Heralds are broken. Hoid may want to actually help them. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by emailanimal

[FollowYourMuse]

I think the following is additional evidence of Hoid knowing the Heralds, and the Original Ancient Singers actually. 

 

Hoid from the Epilogue as he is sneaking into the palace.  

Quote

He passed into the shadow of the palace, and the sentry hovering in the air nearby, wind rippling her long clothing. Vatwha was her name. Thousands of years ago, he’d shared a dance with her. Like all the others, she’d later been trained to watch for him.

From Chapter 121 Ideals, Ahu speaking to Moash

Quote

“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

I think Hoid has been meddling in things on Roshar for a very long time. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by FollowYourMuse

[ccstat]

Thank you for connecting those two dancing quotes for me, @FollowYourMuse. I was trying to figure out what "Ahu" was talking about, and those two together paint a better picture.

[FollowYourMuse]

8 hours ago, ccstat said:

Thank you for connecting those two dancing quotes for me, @FollowYourMuse. I was trying to figure out what "Ahu" was talking about, and those two together paint a better picture.

Thanks, They have been sitting in my mind,   I had been thinking of starting a topic on Dancing with the enemy, but  I am good at finding connections and hints, but not so much at theories. 

[shawnhargreaves]

Midius is definitely Hoid.

I'm intrigued by the drawings-are-by-Shallan + Oilsworn-is-Hoid idea.  Not convinced, but definitely maybe.

I had assumed Jasnah got them from Hoid (along with her info about the cause of the Recreance) but I don't think we've ever seen Hoid draw before?  Shallan does of course, and has her Memories to make accurate reproductions of what she saw in a vision.  It could be.

On the bigger topic of Hoid in OB, Brandon really moved him forward here.  This is the first canon work where his ancient nature is explained in the text.  Previously we knew a lot about him (well, not exactly a lot, but most of the little we do know) from WoB, but someone who only read the books without Internet access would see only a mysterious character who pops in different books and tells strange stories.  This is the first time such a reader would learn (in more than place!) that he is incredibly ancient, even more so than the Heralds, that there is at least one god who swears by him, etc.   A whole bunch of more casual readers who never looked at the forums just got their minds blown.

And then for those of us who do frequent the forums, Brandon throws in more subtle nuggets like the Midius name.

[dvoraen]

I personally had thought the drawings of the Heralds had actually been due to Shallan recreating what was found in the core of Urithiru:

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...Gorgeous, intricate pictures of the Heralds -- made of thousands of tiles -- adorned the ceiling, each in a circular panel.  (p302 hb)

I don't see Urithiru having false depictions of what the Heralds look like, do you?

 

Of course, Ash's viewpoint suggesting that Midius had personally drawn them, and distributed them, does lend weight to it being Hoid.

Edited November 21, 2017 by dvoraen

[shawnhargreaves]

1 minute ago, dvoraen said:

I personally had thought the drawings of the Heralds had actually been due to Shallan recreating what was found in the core of Urithiru:

That doesn't fit with Jasnah's "provided by an unexpected source" statement.  The person who we all know draws all the time, drawing a copy of something we found in this tower that we've all been living in for the last while, wouldn't exactly be unexpected...

Also not sure how accurate those drawings would be.  If I follow the timeline correctly, the Heralds were gone after the last Desolation, but the Knights Radiant continued long after that.  Decorations in Urithiru may be from a time when the Heralds were already ancient legend.

[dvoraen]

Just now, shawnhargreaves said:

That doesn't fit with Jasnah's "provided by an unexpected source" statement.  The person who we all know draws all the time, drawing a copy of something we found in this tower that we've all been living in for the last while, wouldn't exactly be unexpected...

Also not sure how accurate those drawings would be.  If I follow the timeline correctly, the Heralds were gone after the last Desolation, but the Knights Radiant continued long after that.  Decorations in Urithiru may be from a time when the Heralds were already ancient legend.

Urithiru existed well before the last Desolation, though.  That's pretty much fact from the visions Dalinar had.

 

The point I'm trying to make, or perhaps the question I want people to answer, is would it have been "expected" for Urithiru to contain accurate depictions of the Heralds?

[shawnhargreaves]

1 minute ago, dvoraen said:

The point I'm trying to make, or perhaps the question I want people to answer, is would it have been "expected" for Urithiru to contain accurate depictions of the Heralds?

I don't know whether the depictions would be accurate.  Seems like that depends on when that decoration was made.  Original, or a later interior decoration renovation?

But regardless of whether they were accurate or not, how would Jasnah know if they were accurate?  She said "drawings of their true faces, provided by an unexpected source".   If these came from Urithiru, I'd expect that to be "drawings that may or may not be their true faces, obtained from the obvious place".

[Mulk]

If the depictions in Urithiru predate Aharietam (as I find to be likely) they almost have to be accurate.  Because they'd have seen the Heralds afterwards and corrected them.  Therefore, the only real question is whether or not they came before or not.  I find it far more likely they are from before, personally but I understand why others might disagree with that

[shawnhargreaves]

Just now, Mulk said:

Therefore, the only real question is whether or not they came before or not.

My point is a little more subtle than that.  This is not just about whether they came before or not (I'd guess before, but don't know for sure), but whether Jasnah has any way to know that.  I can't imagine how she could be sure, in which case such a meticulous scholar wouldn't describe these images as being their true faces without injecting softening words like "probably".

[Mulk]

16 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

My point is a little more subtle than that.  This is not just about whether they came before or not (I'd guess before, but don't know for sure), but whether Jasnah has any way to know that.  I can't imagine how she could be sure, in which case such a meticulous scholar wouldn't describe these images as being their true faces without injecting softening words like "probably".

Or there is the possibility that she asked some direct questions of the spren in Shadesmar about such things.  We don't know what she knows at this point. And perhaps you're right about the whole softening terms, I just think she's operating on the assumption that what is in Urithiru is pretty trustworthy, moreso than any other sources she would have been able to access in the world due to its immunity to interference from the Vorin church.