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[OB] The third Bondsmith and Urithiru

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I had the same thoughts on the Sibling being a child of honor and cultivation. However the way that the Stormfather refers to the Sibling in the plural makes me think that he's speaking of Cusicesh with the many faces

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I can espouse that theory. 

The one candidate I've been trying to fit in for the Sibling (also, talk about potential middle child syndrome - you get the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and then... the Sibling. Come on, Tanavast, be a better dad, give your kid a name) is the giant spren of stones Szeth mentions once in Oathbringer. I don't have my notes with me at work, but I might post another reply eventually with whatever I had marked as potentially interesting. 

Other than this, I think my thoughts run along lines similar to yours, especially with your recent confirmation that Urithiru was not powered by the Nightwatcher (who was my previous top candidate).

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22 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

I had the same thoughts on the Sibling being a child of honor and cultivation. However the way that the Stormfather refers to the Sibling in the plural makes me think that he's speaking of Cusicesh with the many faces

Initially I wondered this as well, but this WoB seems to disprove the theory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e174

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

Cusicesh is at least two significant "levels" down from Stormfather and Nightwatcher, and I would have to assume that the third would need to be the same level or at least very very close.

The more I think about it the more I agree with this theory; if true, it is a bit odd since generally the spren who power a fabrial are "trapped" there, but Brandon has also indicated that it is possible to trap a nahel-bonded spren in a gemstone (see https://wob.coppermind.net/events/25/#e1765) so it seems very plausible. 

I also considered the possibility of the third bondsmith spren being Odium-related (spren of any type can have free will, so being a voidspren won't automatically make them Evil, and being honorspren doesn't automatically mean Good), but consider this WoB quote (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1640):

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

That seems to imply that at least in general (and at least in the past) all of the "knight radiant" spren were of Honor and Cultivation, which would indicate that the third spren can't be a voidspren... which again seems to indicate it's most likely a fusion of the two, part Honor and part Cultivation.  So... yeah, just more evidence to support your theory.

Edited by taxilian
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11 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

Perhaps something we haven't seen yet? 

We can't theorize about that though, and considering we're not gonna not theorize, we're just gonna look at what we have seen.

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If Nightwatcher is another "Bondsmith Spren" like the Stormfather, that would mean that two of three Shards present on Roshar have a Bondsmith. Would it stand to reason, then, extrapolating from this, that Odium would have a Bondsmith as well - or something of Odium, at least? Sja-anat springs to mind, as she is a bit of a rebel.

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1 hour ago, Argent said:

The one candidate I've been trying to fit in for the Sibling (also, talk about potential middle child syndrome - you get the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and then... the Sibling. Come on, Tanavast, be a better dad, give your kid a name) is the giant spren of stones Szeth mentions once in Oathbringer.

Other than this, I think my thoughts run along lines similar to yours, especially with your recent confirmation that Urithiru was not powered by the Nightwatcher (who was my previous top candidate).

This is why I specifically asked at the signing; I thought it was so obvious due to the fact that we had to have a big piece of Cultivation nearby.

In the original thread, some people guessed that the Sibling is like stone and root of the Shin religion.  This is reasonable, but I don't have good arguments one way or another.  I'd be really interested to hear if you figure something out.

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3 hours ago, taxilian said:

Initially I wondered this as well, but this WoB seems to disprove the theory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e174

Cusicesh is at least two significant "levels" down from Stormfather and Nightwatcher, and I would have to assume that the third would need to be the same level or at least very very close.

English is not my mother tongue and I'm not sure I understand what you wrote but the WoB you mention also said "there are [...] a much bigger deal than [..] and that's what Cusicesh [the Protector] is".

Edited by blackcatw81
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After seeing the Oathgate spren in action, I wonder if the Urithiru Oathgate(s) have their own spren or if they are instead associated with the Sibling. Someone should ask Brandon if the Urithiru Oathgate(s) have their own spren or not.

 

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Just now, blackcatw81 said:

English is not my mother tongue but the WoB you mention also said "there are [...] a much bigger deal than [..] and that's what Cusicesh [the Protector] is".

I can see how the sentence might be a bit tricky to parse -- English is an annoying language sometimes =] Let me rephrase what he said:

Quote

(paraphrased)

There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also a much bigger deal than one of the sapient spren. Cusicesh is one of the sapient spren.

Thus, there are spren which are a level below Stormfather and Nightwatcher and those spren are "a much bigger deal" than Cusicesh is.

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4 minutes ago, taxilian said:

I can see how the sentence might be a bit tricky to parse -- English is an annoying language sometimes =] Let me rephrase what he said:

Thus, there are spren which are a level below Stormfather and Nightwatcher and those spren are "a much bigger deal" than Cusicesh is.

Yeah I read the quote multiple times and applying a bit of grammar structure I finally got it! :D

I think it can happen even in our own language, thank you!

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8 minutes ago, taxilian said:

I can see how the sentence might be a bit tricky to parse -- English is an annoying language sometimes =] Let me rephrase what he said:

Thus, there are spren which are a level below Stormfather and Nightwatcher and those spren are "a much bigger deal" than Cusicesh is.

Um,  my read indicates that Cusicesh is one of the intermediate spren between a sapient spren and the Stormfather/Nightwatcher level. The sapient spren are spren like Syl and Pattern.

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I got called out :D I like this theory, it pulls a lot together. I forgot about one of the bondsmiths being in continual accompaniment of Urithuru. That almost makes me think that might be the spren's name, shared with the tower. 

I also agree with some of the comments I'm seeing about the Sibling being the spren of stone. It would fit theme-wise. Not confirmable, but a solid theory.

The one part of the theory I disagree with is the Great spren being thought of as children. The highstorm(and I assume the Stormfather by extension) existed before the Shards arrived. So I think it is plausible all three Great Spren existed before the Shards. Its also possible that some or all were formed after, or even more likely altered by the Shards upon arrival.

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No problem, your commentary was essential and I always like to cite people correctly :)

You bring up a really good point.  The highstorms certainly existed, but they were originally of Adonalsium, not Honor.  However, I find it quite plausible that Honor created the Stormfather as a large spren to live in the highstorms and recharge spheres.

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2 hours ago, Seonid said:

Um,  my read indicates that Cusicesh is one of the intermediate spren between a sapient spren and the Stormfather/Nightwatcher level. The sapient spren are spren like Syl and Pattern.

..... he *specifically* ended the comment with "Cusicesh is one of the sapient spren.".  How do you get "Cusicesh is a level above the sapient spren" from that?

I would assume that if anything spren like Syl and Pattern (who can form a nahel bond) are that intermediate step, being a level above other sapient spren.

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5 hours ago, Vissy said:

If Nightwatcher is another "Bondsmith Spren" like the Stormfather, that would mean that two of three Shards present on Roshar have a Bondsmith. Would it stand to reason, then, extrapolating from this, that Odium would have a Bondsmith as well - or something of Odium, at least? Sja-anat springs to mind, as she is a bit of a rebel.

I'm thinking that's why there are only 9 voidbinding orders.

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9 Voidbinding orders has nothing to do with that. It's just Odium-specific numerology. Their numerology is 9-centric, while Rosharian numerology is 10-centric.

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5 hours ago, Vissy said:

9 Voidbinding orders has nothing to do with that. It's just Odium-specific numerology. Their numerology is 9-centric, while Rosharian numerology is 10-centric.

Nine Unmade and a champion give ten...

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9 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

The one part of the theory I disagree with is the Great spren being thought of as children. The highstorm(and I assume the Stormfather by extension) existed before the Shards arrived. So I think it is plausible all three Great Spren existed before the Shards. Its also possible that some or all were formed after, or even more likely altered by the Shards upon arrival.

I thought the Stormfather as he is "today", the Sliver of Honor, was because Honor splintered. He existed before Honor but was no sentient being, imo.

...as for the Seons on Sel (even if they're not Slivers).

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Until someone shows me otherwise, I think that voidbinding doesn't have a bondsmith analog.

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27 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Until someone shows me otherwise, I think that voidbinding doesn't have a bondsmith analog.

There is this handy voidbinding chart that shows it would be possible. I mean if Odium can corrupt the Oathgate spren, well then it stands to reason that they could have corrupted the Stormfather if he hadn't merged with Honor (you know, because he was all angry at the KR for the Recreance like Malata's & Venli's spren are now).

5a01d5632ff0d_VoidbindingChart.thumb.jpg.4f20787173c86068f1f9bfbd03b5d0d8.jpg

But I think you're right; I don't think that there is a current Bondsmith analog.

Edited by KidWayne
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