[OB] Kaladin and Jasnah as a couple

[+Oltux72]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:15 AM, Eluvianii said:

Wow. That's a rather pessimistic way of seeing things, in general. In a series where moving forward even after a life spent among suffernig and mistakes is a recurring theme, Jasnah doing that would give the idea that she just gave up, no hope for her.

1. Earlier desolations had death rates up to 90%
2. Earlier desolations had no everstorm
3. Earlier desolations were opposed by a full corps of heralds
4. Earlier desolations were opposed by a full corps of Knights Radiant, who knew what they were doing

To a clear unbiased thinker, which Jasnah is, the default outcome of this desolation must be Odium's victory and her own death.
You are talking about a woman ready to personally kill her cousin and openly advocating genocide. But she is an optimist. If she were a realist, she'd do a Taravangian.

If you were to talk to her about her personal life, she would tell you that without better weapons, more troops and better intelligence, neither you or she have a realistic chance of having a personal life of significant length.

EDIT: And of course she is a stone cold killer. Remember her morality lesson? Would a woman like Jasnah do that without having experimental verification that she can safely (to herself and Shallan) do this without a need to summon a shard blade she could not explain? No, she wouldn't. Those thugs were merely the last in a line of victims. Jasnah has a shard blade. She wields it compotently in war. Would a woman of her calibre bear such a weapon without verifying that she is able to kill with it in combat? Again, no she wouldn't. She has killed dozens.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Oltux72
forgot something

[animalia]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Earlier desolations had death rates up to 90%
2. Earlier desolations had no everstorm
3. Earlier desolations were opposed by a full corps of heralds
4. Earlier desolations were opposed by a full corps of Knights Radiant, who knew what they were doing

To a clear unbiased thinker, which Jasnah is, the default outcome of this desolation must be Odium's victory and her own death.
You are talking about a woman ready to personally kill her cousin and openly advocating genocide. But she is an optimist. If she were a realist, she'd do a Taravangian.

If you were to talk to her about her personal life, she would tell you that without better weapons, more troops and better intelligence, neither you or she have a realistic chance of having a personal life of significant length.

EDIT: And of course she is a stone cold killer. Remember her morality lesson? Would a woman like Jasnah do that without having experimental verification that she can safely (to herself and Shallan) do this without a need to summon a shard blade she could not explain? No, she wouldn't. Those thugs were merely the last in a line of victims. Jasnah has a shard blade. She wields it compotently in war. Would a woman of her calibre bear such a weapon without verifying that she is able to kill with it in combat? Again, no she wouldn't. She has killed dozens.

My guess she wants love, she just figures it's not that likely to happen right now.

[+Oltux72]

17 hours ago, animalia said:

My guess she wants love, she just figures it's not that likely to happen right now.

She is over 30. There is no known tragic love affair or something in her past. She is courting scandal by being unwed at her age. For no apparent reason. We cannot tell what she prefers or not, but if she cared a lot about romantic involvement in her life, she would have had a lot of time to make it happen.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Oltux72
typos

[Use the Falchion]

So this doesn't add anything, but at the signing tonight I asked Brandon if Jasnah was on the autism spectrum. She's not. THAT BEING SAID, Sanderson admitted he's not the most knowledgeable person about these matters. Thus, Jasnah is not intentionally on the Autism spectrum. 

[ZenBossanova]

17 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

So this doesn't add anything, but at the signing tonight I asked Brandon if Jasnah was on the autism spectrum. She's not. THAT BEING SAID, Sanderson admitted he's not the most knowledgeable person about these matters. Thus, Jasnah is not intentionally on the Autism spectrum. 

Interesting, as the autism spectrum has been the best explanation I have seen of Jasnah yet. Are there things that are similar but distinct, from autism spectrum? 

[Razrback16]

18 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

So this doesn't add anything, but at the signing tonight I asked Brandon if Jasnah was on the autism spectrum. She's not. THAT BEING SAID, Sanderson admitted he's not the most knowledgeable person about these matters. Thus, Jasnah is not intentionally on the Autism spectrum. 

Thanks for sharing that with us, good to know.

[Eluvianii]

On 18/11/2018 at 2:12 AM, Oltux72 said:

1. Earlier desolations had death rates up to 90%
2. Earlier desolations had no everstorm
3. Earlier desolations were opposed by a full corps of heralds
4. Earlier desolations were opposed by a full corps of Knights Radiant, who knew what they were doing

To a clear unbiased thinker, which Jasnah is, the default outcome of this desolation must be Odium's victory and her own death.
You are talking about a woman ready to personally kill her cousin and openly advocating genocide. But she is an optimist. If she were a realist, she'd do a Taravangian.

If you were to talk to her about her personal life, she would tell you that without better weapons, more troops and better intelligence, neither you or she have a realistic chance of having a personal life of significant length.

EDIT: And of course she is a stone cold killer. Remember her morality lesson? Would a woman like Jasnah do that without having experimental verification that she can safely (to herself and Shallan) do this without a need to summon a shard blade she could not explain? No, she wouldn't. Those thugs were merely the last in a line of victims. Jasnah has a shard blade. She wields it compotently in war. Would a woman of her calibre bear such a weapon without verifying that she is able to kill with it in combat? Again, no she wouldn't. She has killed dozens.

Yes, she is a cold hearted killer. Yes, the odds of surviving the desolation are practically zero and someone like her is probably what Alethkar needs right now but, not THAT cold hearted, we don't need another Blackthorn. 

That's where the growing comes into play, I'm not talking about the person Jasnah is right now but about the person she will become. She isn't some perfect version of herself who already has learned everything she has to learn, what would be the point in having her in the story then?

My point is reduced to; there are seven books left, her character will definitely develop in that time, she will change, and most of the time when that happens, other people are involved, and you never know what will happen with that people.

Maybe she'll just accept some advice from time to time and learn from that, maybe she'll make a lot of close friends to guide her or maybe she'll fall in love and learn from that experience. Most of what I said is so improbable it makes me want to laugh but like I said, you never know. Just don't let her die the way she is now because, seriously, she still feels incomplete to me. Just saying.

[animalia]

The thing about Jasnah is we know so little about her. Especially about the way she thinks and feels on the INSIDE. As opposed to how she expresses herself. She’s been built up as emotionless, and uncaring but the very FEW insights into her head we get portray her as ANYTHING but that. As such segments are some of the most emotionally driven pieces in the story.

It’s why I hope we get to see her open up more in future books, even if it comes from the perspective of an outsider.

[goody153]

18 hours ago, animalia said:

The thing about Jasnah is we know so little about her. Especially about the way she thinks and feels on the INSIDE. As opposed to how she expresses herself. She’s been built up as emotionless, and uncaring but the very FEW insights into her head we get portray her as ANYTHING but that. As such segments are some of the most emotionally driven pieces in the story.

It’s why I hope we get to see her open up more in future books, even if it comes from the perspective of an outsider.

Sanderson is already writing her that direction with Dalinar's perspective of her as not so stoic(crying when she and Navani reunited again .. or during Dalinar's flashback when Gavilar initially died). Or her entire emotional scene with her cousin at Oathbringer.

She definitely has color and emotions but she is the much more logical and practical of the bunch who is the most willing to go for the "cut the diseased part" actions or "the ends justify the means". Even her Order allows her to do such things unlike being a windrunner or bondsmith.

Edited November 23, 2018 by goody153

[animalia]

2 hours ago, goody153 said:

Sanderson is already writing her that direction with Dalinar's perspective of her as not so stoic(crying when she and Navani reunited again .. or during Dalinar's flashback when Gavilar initially died). Or her entire emotional scene with her cousin at Oathbringer.

She definitely has color and emotions but she is the much more logical and practical of the bunch who is the most willing to go for the "cut the diseased part" actions or "the means justify the ends". Even her Order allows her to do such things unlike being a windrunner or bondsmith.

Or an Edgedancer? Remember he said the Edgedancers would ALSO be ok with what Adolin did, and yet we see, Lift as an example of an Edgedancer. Also even Syl is trying is trying to tell Kaladin that he cannot save everyone. 

This is just a guess, (and probably a bit of projection on my part as well) but I am betting based on her line about about “how fighting can make you strong, but it seems to have only made me calloused,” is that she like Kaladin is someone who cares alot about people but she deals with those emotions in a radically different way. While Kaladin is able to feel his way through things, Jasnah has had to try to think her way through thinks. While Kaladin never seems to grow the callous his father advised he would need, Jasnah has grown calloused and is aware of it (and I do NOT think she thinks it is a good thing.) 

 

Also this is maybe me projecting myself as someone with Asperger’s and bad with social skills. (And there is evidence to suggest Jasnah may be similar, but it is all speculation at this point) But I found that despite trying to and tending to take an optimistic view of history and people. I do find myself becoming a bit more cynical and jaded as I get older. 

Remember when Kaladin said “sometimes all the logic and reason in the world can’t get in the way of that overpowering desire to get what you feel you deserve”? That statement helped me understand somethings because I sometimes feel the exact opposite way. That sometimes all the sympathy and understanding in the world for a person’s or a group of people (in the world’s) situation can’t get past my frustration with their ability to see logic and how they are only making their situation worse. As a result I often feel like I want to bang peoples heads together (metaphorically speaking) until something gets done. But at the same time I realize that I can’t just make people do that. That the more people are pushed the more they want to push back. It may seem contradictory, but both seem like quite logical conclusions to me.

 

Edit: By Lift as an Edgedancer I mean she is one of the sweetest (if still irretating) people you can hope to meet yet she doesn’t like killing. Despite that her order would be ok with what Adolin did.

 

I want to point that there’s a difference between thinking something is nessecary and thinking it is right. The latter claims the act was justified because the act was nessecary. The former claims the act needed to be done, but was still an evil thing to do, just a nessecary evil.

 Finally I hope that people from different orders with different ideals can get along, be friends and even lovers (and know this doesn’t mean Kaladin Jasnah has to be a thing. But I do want SOME. Cross order shipping)  because what is the point of humanity if we can’t recognize the inherent goodness of other human beings even if we disagree with their ideals.

Edited November 22, 2018 by animalia

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

not THAT cold hearted, we don't need another Blackthorn.

The Blackthorn was anything but cold hearted. He liked to kill. Jasnah is ruthlessness incarnate, not slaughter. Nor is she cold hearted. She cares about her family, Roshar, Alethkar, her ward and science. She is just not romantical.

4 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

That's where the growing comes into play, I'm not talking about the person Jasnah is right now but about the person she will become. She isn't some perfect version of herself who already has learned everything she has to learn, what would be the point in having her in the story then?

Jasnah herself would tell you that she needs to grow. But not in the social way. Relationships are not an important component of everybody's life.

4 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Just don't let her die the way she is now because, seriously, she still feels incomplete to me. Just saying.

But not to herself. People are different to each other.

[Gasper]

I like the idea of Jasnah and Kaladin together because they balance each other out. Kaladin would give Jasnah a more empathetic point of view, and Jasnah would keep Kaladin from becoming to emotional over everything. I also support this because Kaladin is related to Jasnah's nephew through Elhokar's late wife. I can see the two of them starting to coparent the kid and then marrying not for love but to give the kid a stable home and family. When Kaladin is off fighting, Jasnah can care for the kid and when Kaladin is in town, the kid gets to see Uncle Kal and Aunt Jass bicker over whether he learns the sword or the spear first. Elhokar did command Kaladin to protect his child, which means that Kaladin most likely will play a large roll in the kid's life. Jasnah and Navani are his closest living relatives, followed by Kaladin and Dalinar, then Adolin, Renarian and Shallan (by marriage). As people have said before, Alethi society (or at least what is left of it) will not be happy with their atheist, shardblade wielding, unmarried queen. Jasnah may not enjoy dealing with the ardents, but they still have massive sway over public opinion. She will likely get married to someone just to prevent the ardentia from turning against the Kholin family any more than they already have. Who better than the head of the Windrunners, a shardbearer with land, good standing, and who is not an atheist, and he does not know how to read. 

[ZenBossanova]

7 hours ago, Gasper said:

As people have said before, Alethi society (or at least what is left of it) will not be happy with their atheist, shardblade wielding, unmarried queen. Jasnah may not enjoy dealing with the ardents, but they still have massive sway over public opinion. She will likely get married to someone just to prevent the ardentia from turning against the Kholin family any more than they already have. Who better than the head of the Windrunners, a shardbearer with land, good standing, and who is not an atheist, and he does not know how to read. 

Exactly why I wrote a thread on Political Marriage. Actually, one reason among many for political marriage. 

I look forward to more conversations about cuddling sky-eels. 

[Eluvianii]

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Blackthorn was anything but cold hearted. He liked to kill. Jasnah is ruthlessness incarnate, not slaughter. Nor is she cold hearted. She cares about her family, Roshar, Alethkar, her ward and science. She is just not romantical.

Jasnah herself would tell you that she needs to grow. But not in the social way. Relationships are not an important component of everybody's life.

But not to herself. People are different to each other.

So, basically, the only point we disagree on in the end is whether Jasnah will become more social or not. My guess is that she will, yours is that she will not. We'll have to wait for that, I'm just based on the hints we get about her; enjoying conversations where she makes and receive witty comments and all that but I guess in the end all my theories are about what I want to happen so that leaves me pretty biased.

20 hours ago, animalia said:

This is just a guess, (and probably a bit of projection on my part as well) but I am betting based on her line about about “how fighting can make you strong, but it seems to have only made me calloused,” is that she like Kaladin is someone who cares alot about people but she deals with those emotions in a radically different way. While Kaladin is able to feel his way through things, Jasnah has had to try to think her way through thinks. While Kaladin never seems to grow the callous his father advised he would need, Jasnah has grown calloused and is aware of it (and I do NOT think she thinks it is a good thing.) 

That's kinda what I was thinking, that she's been like this for so long she no longer knows how to go back. 

20 hours ago, animalia said:

Finally I hope that people from different orders with different ideals can get along, be friends and even lovers (and know this doesn’t mean Kaladin Jasnah has to be a thing. But I do want SOME. Cross order shipping)  because what is the point of humanity if we can’t recognize the inherent goodness of other human beings even if we disagree with their ideals.

Well, there may be already something in its way if everything goes well for Adolin.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

So, basically, the only point we disagree on in the end is whether Jasnah will become more social or not. My guess is that she will, yours is that she will not. We'll have to wait for that, I'm just based on the hints we get about her; enjoying conversations where she makes and receive witty comments and all that but I guess in the end all my theories are about what I want to happen so that leaves me pretty biased.

That's kinda what I was thinking, that she's been like this for so long she no longer knows how to go back. 

Well, there may be already something in its way if everything goes well for Adolin.

She is just taking steps to make herself more lonely. And the other Radiants are likely to have unpleasant surprises. If Odium has a decent inelligence branch (or Taravangian turns into one), Kaladin will find one day that his parents and little brother have become hostages.

[Gasper]

Jasnah is very closed off but is not as emotionally mature as she appears to be. Kaladin is more emotionally mature than his stated age. With that is mind, they are much closer in emotional age than people think. 

[Calderis]

Just have to say, if you think that Jasnah is a cold blooded killer, you're falling into the same trap as the people in book who perceive her that way. 

If she were, Renarin would be dead. If she were, she wouldn't have had the outburst in the palanquin that caused Shallan to ask internally "what happened to you?" 

Jasnah is not cold. She is very, very emotional. She just keeps it in a very firm and controlled grip. She seems cold precisely because if she doesn't control those emotions, they will overwhelm her.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Ammanas]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Jasnah is not cold. She is very, very emotional. She just keeps it in a very firm and controlled grip. She seems cold precisely because if she doesn't control those emotions, they will overwhelm her.

Very much like Dalinar; which I hadn't previously made that connection. She always struck me as a kind character but remains aloof because society has so often attacked her for various reasons. I think she very much believes in the "golden rule" in that she treats others with respect, but demands the same in return. Of course once disrespect is shown to her it is a struggle to remain keep her poise. 

Yes she does things like lecture her mother for different things (it at times things like scolding!) , but in her mind I think she honestly believes she is helping.

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, Gasper said:

Jasnah is very closed off but is not as emotionally mature as she appears to be. Kaladin is more emotionally mature than his stated age. With that is mind, they are much closer in emotional age than people think. 

You are referring to the Kaladin who wanted to rescue his childhood crush as he entered, not too politely, her aristocratic mansion?

We are talking about Alethi. In her case aristocrats as high as they get. On an alien planet, in an preindustrial environment. If maturity is to make sense as a concept, it must be culturally adapted. To an Alethi aristocrat that means getting ready for a political marriage.

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

Just have to say, if you think that Jasnah is a cold blooded killer, you're falling into the same trap as the people in book who perceive her that way. 

If she were, Renarin would be dead. If she were, she wouldn't have had the outburst in the palanquin that caused Shallan to ask internally "what happened to you?"

Once again a case of measuring her with modern western eyes. It is the idea of killing a cousin that she finds so appalling, not killing people in general. Put her in the middle of a (Parshendi) village and make her realize that those people have seen too much and are a security risk to an important military operation and you have a blood bath.
That supreme western horror at the idea of violence is a cultural trait Alethi just don't share. To them it's just a multifaceted thing. Killing in battle is good, murder is bad.

So calling Jasnah a cold blooded killer is not the kind of condemnation it is in the contemporary western world, but she is still an outlier.

[Gasper]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Put her in the middle of a (Parshendi) village and make her realize that those people have seen too much and are a security risk to an important military operation and you have a blood bath.

That is true. Our culture dictates that violence against civilians is wrong. But you can see in other past cultures, that distinction between combatant and civilian did not exist.

[Calderis]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Once again a case of measuring her with modern western eyes. It is the idea of killing a cousin that she finds so appalling, not killing people in general. Put her in the middle of a (Parshendi) village and make her realize that those people have seen too much and are a security risk to an important military operation and you have a blood bath.
That supreme western horror at the idea of violence is a cultural trait Alethi just don't share. To them it's just a multifaceted thing. Killing in battle is good, murder is bad.

So calling Jasnah a cold blooded killer is not the kind of condemnation it is in the contemporary western world, but she is still an outlier.

That's not at all what I was saying. Again, I'm speaking about what has been show in the books. She is not emotionless. She is not "cold" despite what everyone seems to think. 

She is logic driven. But she is not completely unfeeling or amoral. 

Yes she openly advocated killing the Heralds and genocide. Per the information that she had at her disposal at the time, she was absolutely correct.

But the term "cold blooded killer" says that she would kill people and feel nothing. Which is not true at all. 

51 minutes ago, Gasper said:

That is true. Our culture dictates that violence against civilians is wrong. But you can see in other past cultures, that distinction between combatant and civilian did not exist.

And in those cases, it was typically the rape and pillage type of events. It was in no way "cold blooded" 

[Vissy]

This argument about judging characters based on modern sensibilities is so, so dumb. This is a piece of fiction, we're allowed to criticize it from any framework we deem fit. What other moral framework are we supposed to use than our own? 

Also please stop using bad history to justify your bad takes. Most "past cultures" definitely had a distinction between combatants and non-combatants, lol. Just because they lived centuries ago doesn't mean they were all braindead.

Jasnah isn't cold-blooded. And every one of our main characters has killed a lot of people at this point. I don't think Jasnah killing a few thugs who intended to attack and possibly kill her was either cold-blooded or murder.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Vissy

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

This argument about judging characters based on modern sensibilities is so, so dumb. This is a piece of fiction, we're allowed to criticize it from any framework we deem fit. What other moral framework are we supposed to use than our own?

You can complain that your bicycle does not play classic rock radio and is therefore worse than your car, which can do that. Factually you'd be correct. Nevertheless the bike was not expected to and hence not designed to do that.

Likewise Jasnah is a fictional character living in a fictional world. A world, which, if it is to have internal consistency, must have distinct values. Some of which we are given in the books. We could now judge characters by those values, as far as we can deduce them. Or we pick our own, for no logical reason at all.
Now we read that in that fictional world, fathers or brothers negotiate marriage contracts for female relatives. Should we really expect a mature woman in such a setting to expect emotional fulfilment from a romantic relationship? We also read about people plotting to kill each other all the time. Should we expect people in such a setting to expect to share our views on the sanctity of human life?

[Vissy]

Dude. This is a piece of fiction written by a guy called Brandon Sanderson. He's not a serf from the 13th century who got transported into the future. The way an author sees the world is an innate part of analyzing and understanding any given text by said author. Now I'm not interested in debating this any further, this thread has been derailed enough already. Did you have a point to make about Jasnah as a character? I take it that that's where this started from?

Edited November 24, 2018 by Vissy

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yes she openly advocated killing the Heralds and genocide. Per the information that she had at her disposal at the time, she was absolutely correct.

But the term "cold blooded killer" says that she would kill people and feel nothing. Which is not true at all. 

I am sorry, the way she dispatched the would-be robbers by soulcasting leaves no room for her caring about them. Unless you want to assume she enjoyed it, she must have had little to no emotional envolvement. Which is what by Alethi values is the ideal state. Killing an enemy is good. Seeking combat is good. If anything, you should enjoy this, if you were a good Alethi. It may be unfeminine, but it is basically virtuous.

But I must apologize for being imprecise. I didn't intend to say that she is cold and without feeling in general. However, she cares about other things than would be normal for a western woman from our time. She cares about family and scholarship, not relationships.
Which leads me to the point of emotional maturity. There is no objective state of emotional maturity. It depends on culture.
We live in very unheroic times. We define maturity in terms of relationships. Caring about other people, building a stable relationship, finding somebody.
That is not the way Alethi aristocrats are supposed to think. Their marriages are arranged. You do your duty. You seek to outwit other women.

Jasnah is ready to fight in the face of likely death. She is mature. In Alethi terms.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

And in those cases, it was typically the rape and pillage type of events. It was in no way "cold blooded" 

For the soldiers, yes. For their commanders, typically no. You made an example out of that city to discourage other potential rebels or enemies. Cold calculation using terror as a weapon.