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[OB] Kaladin and Jasnah as a couple

295 posts in this topic

On 7/24/2018 at 11:17 PM, Calderis said:

They have 500 20 hour days and an hour is 0.9636 of hours.

A Rosharan year is only 1.1 of ours. Kaladin in basically 21

Ah right...I forgot about the reduced number of hours.

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On 11/26/2017 at 3:22 PM, FeatherWriter said:

Alright I kind of dipped my toes in this conversation before but didn't really try to answer it before. I'll put the tl;dr version at the top and it's this: I think the books indicate that Jasnah is clearly uninterested in romantic/sexual relationships with men for certain, and possibly all people. Beyond that, even if Jasnah was attracted to men (which I'm pretty sure she's not), she and Kaladin wouldn't be a good pair, regardless.

Jasnah's lack of interest in marriage/romance

So, Jasnah overall shows no interest towards relationships, but there's one in particular that stands out as characterizing. The first chapter of Words of Radiance has a conversation in which Jasnah reveals that she has set up a causal betrothal for Shallan and Adolin. It is within this that I draw most of my ideas of Jasnah's views on relationships from. You should really just read the whole scene to get the full picture.

Jasnah has a great anxiety about this plan, actually, and the narration made this very clear. Jasnah "takes a deep breath" and Shallan thinks she's "reluctant to explain." Shallan notes the "uncharacteristic anxiety" in Jasnah as she brings this up. When Shallan seems excited about the prospect, Jasnah "visibly relaxes" but also seems very confused that Shallan isn't upset with her. And by the end of the conversation, Jasnah sort of shakes her head and moves on, still not entirely sure what just happened.

I think what we see of this plan is that Jasnah assumes that Shallan would have reacted in a similar manner as Jasnah would have. Jasnah specifically says "I had wondered, however, if you'd be offended." Jasnah asks because the idea of being set up in an arranged marriage would have offended her.

Jasnah believed that the causal with Adolin was an unfortunate idea that Shallan was going to have to grit her teeth and suffer through because it the only way to secure an alliance to protect Shallan's family. I imagine that Jasnah had all manner of arguments ready to try to help Shallan see that accepting was the best way even though, obviously, a marriage is not something anyone could enjoy!

Jasnah knows that being forced to deign to marry someone would be an offensive situation to her, especially if she hadn't been consulted beforehand. When Shallan doesn't react the same way, instead seeming excited by the opportunity and prospect, Jasnah is baffled.

Jasnah discusses "the restriction of freedom implicit in a marriage" and feels that Shallan would be upset about being locked into a betrothal after she was "free of her father." Jasnah seems to feel as though marriage is something that men try to force women into, and it's something Jasnah wants no part of. Jasnah brushes off Amaram in her prologue, with her narration indicating that she thinks the match doesn't work. Though Jasnah's spat with Amaram in Oathbringer shows that her distaste for Amaram personally is not insignificant, but I think Jasnah has a distaste for the idea of marriage as well.

Which brings us to one of the most telling quotes, bolding mine:

I believe this is the sort of dramatic irony of Shallan saying something that Jasnah actually does feel, that marriage is like being sold into slavery. And Jasnah just kind of has to laugh it off and say "oh, ha, right... that's not something that everything feels, huh?" I think Jasnah's disinterest and distaste for marriage stem from both a disinterest in being "tied down" into societal roles that she doesn't agree with and has no interest in. I believe this stems from an overall disinterest in romance and sexuality in general.

The quote above seems to indicate that even as the idea of marriage is something Jasnah dislikes, men in particular are even worse of an idea to her. Marriage? Bad. Marriage to a man? Worse. And at the heart of it, I think there's just an overall lack of romantic 

But, perhaps I'm misinterpreting or overinterpreting the passage to mean more than it should. Maybe Jasnah would show a romantic interest in a man someday. I still don't think it would be Kaladin. Let's go into that.

Jasnah's incompatibility with Kaladin

Kaladin and Jasnah's personalities don't mesh well, in my opinion. They are opposites in many ways, and not in an "opposites" attract kind of way. Their argument in Oathbringer indicates this to me, though I believe there is also sufficient evidence of their lack of compatibility through what we see of them individually as well.

Jasnah is a woman of contradictions, and even has a chapter named after it. 

Jasnah is a woman of logic, but also deep emotion. She is able to make difficult decisions, not because she doesn't care, but rather because she cares deeply, and knows exactly what she'll do to protect the things she cares about. Her sense of personal morality isn't based on any outside influence, but is the result of her own personal conscience alone and is accountable to only herself. She cares about her family, and justifies the use of spies and assassins to protect them, even from within. She justifies killing criminals with Soulcasting in Kharbranth after tempting them to attack her, even though she knows this will present a moral and philosophical conundrum for Shallan. Upon realizing some of the impetus for Desolations, she immediately decides that the best course of action is to track down the Heralds and kill them (though she is persuaded away from this eventually).

Jasnah answers to her own mind alone and does not hesitate when she has decided on a plan. She sees what needs to be done, she does it. This can make her seem cold and callous to outside observers, but it's simply an expression of efficiency and dedication to a task. Jasnah doesn't hedge, and she doesn't waste time questioning her decisions after she's made them. This gets her into trouble occasionally, as it can make her inflexible, but it is nevertheless effective in accomplishing things.

Kaladin is an entirely different story.

Kaladin constantly struggles with internal conflict and questioning his own personal morality. He is pulled between desires like revenge or his hatred for lighteyes and his conscience trying to tell him what the right thing to do is. His decisions in WoK about helping Bridge 4 and, later, saving Dalinar are examples of this kind of tortured conflict, in which Kaladin asks himself throughout the lead-up if this is what he should really be doing. In some cases he's still questioning himself as he's doing things.

The longest form of this is the plot to assassinate Elhokar, in which Kaladin initially thinks he's making the hard choice and doing what must be done, before later going back and deciding to save Elhokar instead. Throughout, Kaladin tries to convince himself he knows what's right, but he never really feels sure

While Jasnah is assured of her actions and morality, Kaladin desperately desires something that can give him a sense of absolute right and wrong. He's tired of being confused about what he should do and wishes to find something that would let him act without guilt. However, his personal standards for success and right are extremely high; he feels he must save everyone, he has to do the perfect thing and has difficulty taking actions that would hurt someone, even for the greater good.

This comes to a head in Oathbringer, when Kaladin is unable to fully see the Singers as enemies because of his time among them. He sees their point of view, thinks that they're just trying to live, and cannot convince himself that they should die. It paralyzes him in Part 3, but it also brings him into direct conflict with Jasnah in Part 2, when Jasnah is ready to make the hard decision, but Kaladin can't live with the consequences of that action. Later in the book, Kaladin feels that his fourth oath has something to do with not protecting Dalinar or letting him die, and Kaladin's unable to bring himself to say it. 

These extreme differences in morality are always going to make it difficult for Kaladin and Jasnah to see eye to eye. They may both be good people, but they come at it in very different ways. Much of Jasnah's thinking is abhorrent to Kaladin, while she sees his point of view as naive and simplistic. Those aren't foundations upon which a budding romance blossoms. Those are the kinds of different points of view that make enemies, or strained allies in the best cases. I think Jasnah and Kaladin will eventually learn to see the value in each other's points of view, but I doubt either of them will ever like it.

Even aside from matters of morality, Kaladin and Jasnah have little in common with one another. Kaladin is highly social, at his most comfortable when he's leading groups of men and working with them as a cohesive team. From his old spearman squad, to the groups of slaves he bonded with, to Bridge 4, Kaladin has an easy, instant connection with people and leads them well.

Jasnah, on the other hand, is a solitary creature. Keeping in contact with her colleagues over spanreed is enough social interaction for her and though she is polite and well mannered, she's more at ease on her own studying at a desk than in a crowd of people. She has difficulty working with even a single ward and admits to Shallan that she feels she isn't good at it. 

Kaladin has many difficulties with lighteyes, and even if he is starting to get over some of his hangups, he still has a great distrust and dislike for them. Jasnah is about as lighteyed as one can get, especially by the end of Oathbringer, where she has been named queen. Jasnah and Kaladin share no common interests. She is a consummate academic and renowned historian. He is a soldier and bodyguard, with surgeon's training as well. On a very basic level, there's an age difference between them, with Kaladin at 20 and Jasnah at 35.

Conclusion

I'll cut myself off there, if only because this silly treatise is already far, far too long, but that's a rundown of the way that I see things standing right now. I read a lot of evidence for Jasnah being both aromantic and asexual and I think she and Kaladin have an extreme set of distances that make them unfit as a romantic couple. I have yet to see a reasoning behind the Jasnadin ship that seemed compelling or convincing to me, and if we're working off the "compulsive heterosexual romance" card, I'll admit that idea got tossed around for Shalladin and was one of the reasons I hated that ship as well. Brandon's already had several romances in Stormlight so far and I believe there's probably another one coming down the line at some point for Kaladin, given how often Syl talks about how he needs someone, and the flashbacks with Tarah showing that Kaladin very much is not aromantic. But for me, Jasnah's not really an option to fill that role. 

If anyone actually read this whole thing, you deserve a cookie. I always have far too many thoughts. Now... someone stop me from going over to the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread and doing something similar...

There’s another way of reading the same evidence. Jasnah might have had a bad romantic relationship, possiblly, even an aranged relationship with Amaram, and worries about entering into potential relationships, because she worries that all others see her for is her power and position. (Possibly it’s how Amaram viewed their relationship even though she had genuine feelings for him. Brandon DID say there was more to their relationship than had been let on) If so she would also aware that  these type of things are a danger with any political relationship, which is why she is hesitant to do such a thing even if she is distasteful, but she doesn’t deny that reality makes them necessary at times. I would also like to post this thread here to give some speculation on Jasnah that applies 

IF this speculation is correct then Jasnah probably WOULD always be questioning her morals. And I always try to imagine what I would feel like if I were in the other person’s position. I sometimes have difficulty noticing when others are in pain, but when I DO notice I tend to care MORE then the average person. But just as Kaladin said that “sometimes no amount of logic or reasoning can make get in the way of that overpowering desire to get what you think you deserve” a statement that was eye opening for me, I sometimes have the opposite problem, sometimes no amount of empathy for a person’s situation can help with my frustration with their inability to see logic and how what they are doing is making their situation worse. As such I sometimes feel like I am stuck between two sides of a situation and banging my head against a wall in frustration.

 I realize that a lot of what I say about Jasnah is speculation and personal opinion, but at the very least I wanted to throw out another opinion and/or possiblity.

Edited by animalia
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On 11/26/2017 at 10:22 PM, FeatherWriter said:

I'll cut myself off there, if only because this silly treatise is already far, far too long, but that's a rundown of the way that I see things standing right now. I read a lot of evidence for Jasnah being both aromantic and asexual and I think she and Kaladin have an extreme set of distances that make them unfit as a romantic couple. I have yet to see a reasoning behind the Jasnadin ship that seemed compelling or convincing to me, and if we're working off the "compulsive heterosexual romance" card, I'll admit that idea got tossed around for Shalladin and was one of the reasons I hated that ship as well.

Jasnah's heir is a child, who has spent, at a minimum, months under the care of a mother in thrall of dark forces (two unmade) with unknown consequences for himself and his mental health. The next in line are either politically impossible, known widely as strange or actively fighting in the field. All of them are childless or their wife is at an age that makes more children unlikely.

Hence Jasnah may not need a husband, but she does need a child.

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On Jasnah potential being  Autistic here is a link to a Tumblr post that supports it though I often have trouble getting below the cutoff line.

https://myqueenjasnahkholin.tumblr.com/post/170352519803/autisticjasnah-masterpost/amp

I sometimes have difficulty accessing the cutoff text but it’s worth it if you can.

The reason I bring this up is because it’s nessecary to use this to establish a base of her mindset. Because given how Brandon likes parallels it would not surprise me if he “retells Kaladin’s story from the “other side” when we get to Jasnah’s flashbacks. Give me a bit to go over the details and I will elaborate, in another post if need be.

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OK I was basically thinking about a few points. 

1: At one point Kaladin was in an aranged marriage to someone he kind of liked, but had trouble understanding him. (Autistics often have trouble understanding how people think, I am not saying that Laral was NESSECARILY autistic, I am just setting up for a parallel)

2: Jasnah was worried about the the idea of an arranged marriage when she started to set up the idea for Shallan, she can see them as POTENTIALLY restricting to FREEDOM. (Honestly, now that I look back at it, the whole scene is like Jasnah wanted to proceed slowly, to have a chance to ask Shallan what she thought about the idea but got overwhelmed by her mom. Thanks StrikerZ for the comparison.)

3: KaladiN spent time having his freedom restricted in the WORST way possible. As a slave.

4: More notes about autism, (and why, it was important to establish that Jasnah might be on the spectrum earlier). As mentioned we have trouble understanding perhaps and we often don’t notice they are in pain unless they tell us straight out. On the OTHER HAND once we do notice someone is in pain, we TEND to be MORE EMPATHETIC then normal people to their suffering. We can’t help ourselves from caring, kind of like Kaladin in that way. However, and this may just be my personal experience, but we REACT to the way that we care in a DIFFERENT matter. Remember when Kaladin ways talking to Syl and he said that “sometimes no amount of logic or reasoning can get past that overwhelming desire to get what you feel that deserve” I have sometimes have the opposite problem, sometimes no amount of sympathy and compassion for a someone’s (either an individual or group’s plight), can overpower my frustration with their inability to see logic and keep doing things that make their situation worse. (I talk about when I read about the situation in the world) And I just feel like banging people’s heads into the walls until they listen to reason. (I know it won’t work, but that’s what I feel from time to time.) So yeah, I put in a little personal bias and perspective there. But IF she’s at a similar type of Autism (I am where Asperger’s Syndrome was located) they would DEFINITELY make good foils with things to teach each other as previously mentioned.

So yeah I am already partially in the speculation territory, here’s where I go full speculation.

 I am going to speculate that at one time Jasnah was in an aranged marriage with Amaram (This is my guess for the broken oath) Perhaps she even loved him? But in anycase him and at least SOME of his family though were social climbers of the worst kind. They didn’t care about Jasnah, they just wanted to get what they felt they were owed. (She DEFINITELY has a grudge against Amaram FOR A REASON) What’s more, once she was at her place they probably expected her to act like a “proper Vorin lady” with all the restrictions that required, she couldn’t be herself. Most IMPORTANTLY they DIDN’T see as a person. Just a commodity. A commodity that was treated nicely perhaps, but only if it did EXACTLY as it was told. At the same time I expect there to be SOMETHING morally ambiguous done by Galivar and NOT JUST because we have started to see him portrayed as more and more shady as time goes on. (OK THIS WILL NOT BE IT EXACTLY, as it is to much against the pure parallels thing I wanted, but I have only so much Jasnah material to speculate from so work with me hear)

I hope you see what I did there. It’s basically the Kaladin story but seen from the other side. Don’t forget Kaladin’s father DID STEAL spheares from Laral’s father. Because he felt he was owed them. (And that’s I feel Galivar would do something shady as well to highlight the parrallel) I am ADMITTEDLY GUESSING that when the two learn each other’s respective backstories. It will be a “So that’s how the other side felt” moment.

 I could be WAY off base here. Heck I almost certainly am. But I still thought it was speculation worth hearing.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, animalia said:

On Jasnah potential being  Autistic here is a link to a Tumblr post that supports it though I often have trouble getting below the cutoff line.

https://myqueenjasnahkholin.tumblr.com/post/170352519803/autisticjasnah-masterpost/amp

I sometimes have difficulty accessing the cutoff text but it’s worth it if you can.

The reason I bring this up is because it’s nessecary to use this to establish a base of her mindset. Because given how Brandon likes parallels it would not surprise me if he “retells Kaladin’s story from the “other side” when we get to Jasnah’s flashbacks. Give me a bit to go over the details and I will elaborate, in another post if need be.

I am impressed, but could you please post the rest of that Tumblr post? I can't get it to come up. 

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Yeah, Azure I thought was a Kaladin style, and I can't help feeling that we will have a confrontation between her and Szeth is coming which would bring her back to the bulk of the mains at he end of Oathbringer, so that could work. it seems like Kaladin's partner will definitely be someone of whom he has conflicted with. Jasnah won't be married until late in the series, and when she does it will be a head over heels one because that is more entertaining. I feel that if it is Jasnah then its either what I said before or a Kaladin in love but turned away and then Jasnah dying to save Dalinar, and in her last moments telling Kaladin that she really did love him, but she couldn't have any soft points as Queen.

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20 hours ago, animalia said:

On Jasnah potential being  Autistic here is a link to a Tumblr post that supports it though I often have trouble getting below the cutoff line.

https://myqueenjasnahkholin.tumblr.com/post/170352519803/autisticjasnah-masterpost/amp

I sometimes have difficulty accessing the cutoff text but it’s worth it if you can.

The reason I bring this up is because it’s nessecary to use this to establish a base of her mindset. Because given how Brandon likes parallels it would not surprise me if he “retells Kaladin’s story from the “other side” when we get to Jasnah’s flashbacks. Give me a bit to go over the details and I will elaborate, in another post if need be.

Mannaged to find the full page on my PC. Am quoting it now

 
Quote

 

Autistic!Jasnah: Masterpost

Okaaay, so, as you might have guessed from the title, this post is a long list of reasons Jasnah Kholin is autistic af.  

The short version: Jasnah is autistic because I, a Known Autism, say so. Have a nice day.

The long version (format): A long series of chronological quotes that all follow this pattern: Quote. *Insert ramble about why this is an Autistic Thing* *Possible and probable further ramble about why I’m emotional about that.

That’s literally it, people. Buckle up, I’ve picked through all three books (yes all three) to compose this post for y’all. It’s not going to be short.

To business:

The Way of Kings:

 Jasnah glanced at Shallan, noting her, then returned to her conversation.

Introducing Jasnah ‘I don’t have time for social niceties I’m busy’ Kholin. From the first interaction she’s…Bad at interacting. Iconic.

“Then we shall do an evaluation. Answer truthfully and do not exaggerate, as I will soon discover your lies. Feign no false modesty, either. I haven’t the patience for a simperer.”

Jasnah is both blunt, direct, and honest in her speech as she is in her expectations from others. She doesn’t have the energy to deal with manipulation/lying/tarting up the truth to make it more socially acceptable bc she is a busy autistic lady with rust to do. (really, though, what she’s literally demanding here is the first rule of the autistic’s guide to easy conversation. Clear. Simple. To the point. To frills, no fuss.)

 Jasnah didn’t argue further, and Shallan could see from her eyes that it was of no consequence to her if the king risked his life. The same apparently went for Shallan, for Jasnah didn’t order her away.

People do what people want to do and Jasnah doesn’t waste any time pretending she cares/that it matters to her for the sake of appearances. Again, this woman has a vendetta against typical social niceties and I love it.

“Now?” the king said, cradling his granddaughter. “But we are going to have a feast—”

“I appreciate the offer,” Jasnah said, “but I find myself with an abundance of everything but time.”

Do I need to point out the lack of social niceties again or are y’all sensing a pattern at this point? *King lovingly embraces his darling granddaughter that Jasnah just saved and orders a feast prepared in her honour* Jasnah: ‘Thanks but no I’m too busy to socialise.’

Jasnah was also a rationalist, a woman with the audacity to deny the existence of the Almighty himself based on her own reasoning. Jasnah would appreciate strength, but only if it was shaped by logic.

Jasnah feelings>>>>>>logic. This is a fairly common theme, of Jasnah being ruled less by emotions/sentiment/societal pressures/expectations and much more by logic/her own reasoning. She has her own way of looking at the world, her own rules for how it works, and she won’t be swayed by anyone else’s opinions on how she should feel/behave.

Jasnah turned to look out of the balcony into the dark space of the Veil. “I know what people say of me. I should hope that I am not as harsh as some say, though a woman could have far worse than a reputation for sternness. It can serve one well.”

Jasnah not being very self-aware in how people actually perceive her is also an autistic thing. Shallan notes several times that Jasnah is actually nowhere near as harsh/stern as she’s reputed to me, and, more importantly, she’s nowhere near as harsh/stern as she perceives herself to be. She also fails to note that Shallan actually enjoys the work/the challenge. This also implies that she takes what people say about her at face value and doesn’t have the necessary social skills to refute them.

Shallan tried to judge Jasnah’s mood, but the older woman’s emotions were impossible to read. 

Again, this is a fairly common autistic trait. We struggle to read other people’s body language, but they often struggle to read ours as well. A part of this is probably Jasnah deliberately cultivating this kind of persona, but even so, she’s too unsure of how she comes across to have completely mastered this.

Jasnah carefully removed its contents, neatly lining up the brushes, pencils, pens, jar of lacquer, ink, and solvent. She placed the stacks of paper, the notebooks, and the finished pictures in a line.

Oh look, it’s one of the world’s biggest Autism Stereotypes (which I’m totally guilty of too): lining all the things up neatly, and making them Orderly.

At least with Jasnah one knew where one stood.

Jasnah of the straightforward, blunt honesty and ‘what you see is what you get’ strikes again.

When Jasnah was deeply immersed in one of her projects, she often ignored all else.

And here we see the Autistic Jasnah in her natural habitat: hyperfixating on her special interest.

The rest is under the cut for length! 

Jasnah had elegant handwriting, of course—Jasnah rarely did anything without taking the time to perfect it. 

Jasnah not doing anything unless it’s done Properly and Right according to her? Also Jasnah being indifferent towards things she hasn’t put any time into perfecting (such as drawing).

“I always forgive curiosity, Your Majesty,” Jasnah said. “It strikes me as one of the most genuine of emotions.

Again, Jasnah encouraging/reacting positively to genuine/honest emotions because she doesn’t Understand the whole guile/lying/not being honest thing because honestly what is the point?

“Must someone, some unseen thing, declare what is right for it to be right? I believe that my own morality—which answers only to my heart—is more sure and true than the morality of those who do right only because they fear retribution.”

Honestly, just, this whole thing. For a start it’s a massive transgression of the Vorin social norms/expectations, especially for Jasnah as a prominent public figure as the sister to the king. For another it’s that internal rules thing again. Jasnah’s world operates according to Jasnah’s principles and Jasnah’s understanding of it, no-one else’s.

But Shallan had caught a handful of occasions, mostly when Jasnah had been distracted, and had apparently forgotten she wasn’t alone.

*Jasnah ignores social expectations so hard she literally forgets other people exist in the world* Also, again, the hyperfixation on special interest.

“And yet, those men are off the street. The people of this city are that much safer. The issue that Taravangian has been so worried about has been solved, and no more theatergoers will fall to those thugs. How many lives did I just save?”

“I know how many you just took,” Shallan said.

Jasnah has a habit of doing this, this very cold, calculated, logical and pragmatic way of seeing the world as well as morality. Shallan considers the lives taken, the emotional aspect of the moral dilemma, the horror of murder. Jasnah just sees it almost as statistics, as four lives taken to save many more. Shallan also focuses on the cold hard facts of ‘I know how many people you just killed’ while Jasnah is engaged in weighing up the probability of how many she just saved. (In theory, the thugs might never have attacked anyone again, so Jasnah might not have saved anyone by her actions, which I think is what Shallan is getting at here. But that’s just…A moot point as far as Jasnah is concerned)

This is also an example of her black and white thinking. There’s more net good in what she did than there is net bad. That’s where her questioning/reasoning stops because it makes sense to her. Shallan exists in the grey area, but I don’t think Jasnah even sees it in cases like this.

But it wasn’t the act itself so much as the cold callousness of it that bothered her.

This is an interesting one, and something I’ll talk about more a bit later, probably, but the way Jasnah comes across vs how she actually is. I totally get why Shallan views what she did as cold and callous, and in a way I suppose it was. It was fully planned and fully intentional. But I think for her it’s this kind of…separation between logic and sentiment. I think Jasnah feels very strongly and very deeply, but she doesn’t often display that to other people, and I also think she believes there’s a time and a place for that. Also, black and white thinking again. It comes off as cold to Shallan, but for Jasnah I think it feels more like common sense.

You only needed to kill one of them.”

“No, I didn’t,” Jasnah said.

“Why? They would have been too frightened to do something like that again.”

You don’t know that. I sincerely wanted those men gone. A careless barmaid walking home the wrong way cannot protect herself, but I can. And I will.”

Again, black and white thinking. (I’m also surprised this moment doesn’t generate more Discourse…Or maybe it does, I’ve just avoided it, either way) This is both a case for Jasnah not being able to predict people’s responses/behaviours, and also black and white thinking/internal rules at play. As far as she’s concerned those men are criminals. She has no assurances that they won’t hurt anyone else again. They’re already criminals, and there’s no chance for redemption or leeway, here. She’s made up her mind. They’re all criminals. They’re all dangerous. They all die.

Jasnah closed her eyes again, handing the brush toward Shallan. “Fifty strokes tonight, Shallan. It has been a fatiguing day.”

A)- routines the ‘tonight’ and the familiarity of this implies it’s something that happens every night. And the ‘fifty strokes’ is either another routine related thing, or an internal rule thing. Either way. Also this is probably a stim thing, since she’s using it to relax/de-stress.

Jasnah tapped her desktop with a fingernail.

Stimming.

Brightness Jasnah does NOT like people entering her room. The maids have been told not to clean in there.” The king had promised that his maids were very carefully chosen, and there had never been issues of theft, but Jasnah still insisted that none enter her bedchamber.

Definitely, definitely, definitely an autistic thing. Issues with people entering Your Spaces or touching Your Things is a big autistic thing. (especially because the assurances about thieving don’t change her mind) Also the emphasis on not as in ‘this is a thing one absolutely does not do unless one wishes to die’.

“She’d believe me,” Shallan said. “She thinks she’s far more demanding than she is. Or…well, she is demanding. I just don’t mind as much as she thinks I do.”

Again, Jasnah taking what people say of her/how they say they perceive her at face value, and also lack of self-awareness in how people actually respond to her.

Jasnah regarded Shallan, face stiff, impassive. “I have been told that my tutelage is demanding, perhaps harsh. This is one reason why I often refuse to take wards.”

“I apologize for my weakness, Brightness,” Shallan said, looking down.

Jasnah seemed displeased. “I did not mean to suggest fault in you, child. I was attempting the opposite. Unfortunately I’m…unaccustomed to such behavior.”

Two things here: one, I’m like, 99% certain that Jasnah, who has been camped out at the hospital all this time waiting for Shallan to wake up is feeling anything but ‘impassive’ at this moment, in which case this is an example of her body language/facial expressions not matching up properly to her actual internal feelings, which is fairly common. And two: Jasnah’s apology being taken for a rebuttal and her obvious displeasure at it coming across that way when she literally intended the opposite (been there).

Also her general air of uncertainty/discomfort in this setting, which is one that’s obviously social/emotional. Also the fact that she pins her poor apology on lack of practice/familiarity with these kinds of interactions when, in theory, these kinds of things should come naturally to people. So like, lil bit of hinting/implication of scripting social things her, which I think her initial words reek of as well, as she’s said similar things before.

“You make it sound as if you were waiting out there.”

Jasnah didn’t reply.

“But your research!”

“Can be done in the hospital waiting chamber.” She hesitated. “It has been somewhat difficult for me to focus these last few days.”

“Jasnah! That’s quite nearly HUMAN of you!”

Again, a few things here, firstly that Jasnah is othered in a way by Shallan (and this isn’t the only time this happens, either) because of her lack of emotional response/social stuff. Secondly the fact that she’s clearly uncomfortable/struggles with this kind of conversation – the hesitation, the lack of responses are very much at odds with her usual composure and the way she has an answer for literally everything.

Words of Radiance:

She was all too glad to be leaving the stuffy room, which stank of too many perfumes mingling.

Prologue and we’ve already got Jasnah experiencing sensory issues in a crowded room with lots of perfume. What a way to kick things off.

“Many people consider that sort of thing enjoyable.”

Many people, unfortunately, are idiots.

Her father smiled. “Is it terribly difficult for you?” he asked softly. “Living with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? Is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance, Jasnah?”

A)- Jasnah obviously not enjoying social events/parties (she literally spends all of this one…contemplating the assassination she’s plotting. Like. Mood.)

B)- Gavilar’s comment is…Strangely sad, I think?? And perhaps a bit too on point. (This is very much just my reading of things but)…I don’t know. I see Jasnah trying to make a little quip/a joke here and it being misinterpreted because of her tone. And then, again, there’s that idea of othering that came up at the end of TWOK.

But I think the ‘is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance?’ I think that….A huge part of that ‘brilliance’ comes from a mixture of Jasnah’s autistic traits: her special interest/her focus in them/her dedication to pursuing them…but also that sense of being other. Of not fitting in. The rest of “us” she doesn’t belong, she doesn’t fit.

And I think this idea of their ‘simple thoughts’ as opposed to Jasnah’s brilliant ones is a little like what we see with Renarin in Oathbringer, where Adolin explains that he isn’t trying to be lofty and brilliant, people sometimes just have difficulty following him. And I think this is what’s happening with Jasnah here (and in other places, she frequently talks about the difficulty she has in teaching, and how her methods are too intense and involved)

And also I think that….The saddest bit about this is that I think she was….Trying to joke here? Trying to fit in with those ordinary people, ‘the rest of us’, and just making a sarcastic joke on the back of her father’s comment about most people enjoying parties and she just sort of ‘well, most people are idiots aren’t they?’ And that’s what prompts this little moment here. So even when she’s trying to fit, and trying to belong, she’s still cast as the outcast, and misunderstood, and othered and it Hurts Me.

 I, she thought, need to write this experience down.

She would do so, then analyze and consider. Later. 

She literally topples into another world, effectively, and is just like ‘hm, I should make some notes on this and analyse them’. And. Yep. This is how she processes the world. By making sense of it, by treating everything according to Jasnah’s rules: it gets written down. It gets analysed. It gets understood. Bam.

Jasnah ignored the eyes of the sailors. It wasn’t that she didn’t notice men. Jasnah noticed everything and everyone. She simply didn’t seem to care, one way or another, how men perceived her.

Jasnah ‘I don’t have time for social expectations’ Kholin strikes again. Jasnah also just doesn’t care how anyone perceives her, social norms and expectations can go storm themselves .

Jasnah grimaced at the thought. Shallan was always surprised to see visible emotion from her. Emotion was something relatable, something human—and Shallan’s mental image of Jasnah Kholin was of someone almost divine.

Again, the othering idea, as well as visible emotion being startling, as she’s typically so withdrawn/closed off/difficult to read. Yes friend, u guessed it, this is Peak Autism. Also the specific word in it being ‘relatable’ again marks that difference between Jasnah and…Everyone else. Again she’s different, again she doesn’t quite fit.

Jasnah relaxed visibly. “Yes, well, it did seem a workable solution. I had wondered, however, if you’d be offended.

“Why on the winds would I be offended?”

“Because of the restriction of freedom implicit in a marriage,” Jasnah said. 

Again, Jasnah misreading things/not being able to anticipate how people are going to react to different things. Also her view of marriage as ‘restricting’ says a lot about how she sees it/probably relationships in general.

Power is an illusion of perception.

Shallan frowned.

“Don’t mistake me,” Jasnah continued. “Some kinds of power are real—power to command armies, power to Soulcast. These come into play far less often than you would think. On an individual basis, in most interactions, this thing we call power—authority—exists only as it is perceived.

“You say I have wealth. This is true, but you have also seen that I do not often use it. You say I have authority as the sister of a king. I do. And yet, the men of this ship would treat me exactly the same way if I were a beggar who had convinced them I was the sister to a king. In that case, my authority is not a real thing. It is mere vapors—an illusion. I can create that illusion for them, as can you.”

This right here is Jasnah explaining passing, without ever using the word ‘passing’. This is how Jasnah sees social interactions. They’re all illusions, they’re all, effectively, lies. They aren’t real to her. How people perceive others isn’t something that she can fit into her box of neat facts and logic. It’s this ever changing, insubstantial thing, ‘mere vapours’. And though she’s talking here about power and authority, the basic principle applies to literally every single social interaction ever. Aka: the secret behind how Jasnah Kholin (somehow) managed to convince ppl she’s allistic.

The orders of knights were a construct, just as all society is a construct, used by men to define and explain. Not every man who wields a spear is a soldier, and not every woman who makes bread is a baker. And yet weapons, or baking, become the hallmarks of certain professions.”

Actual footage of Jasnah Kholin going to war against social constructs and their flimsiness.

It was a picture of Jasnah, drawn by Shallan herself. Shallan had given it to the woman after being accepted as her ward. She’d assumed Jasnah had thrown it away—the woman had little fondness for visual arts, which she considered a frivolity.

Instead, she’d kept it here with her most precious things. 

This is one of my favourite Underrated Jasnah Moments tbh because it says so much about her with such a simple gesture. We’ve established from the past book and a half that Jasnah is pretty bad when it comes to social interactions, and she’s even worse when it comes to displaying her emotions. But she’s not emotionless. She, personally, doesn’t see the value in visual arts, and hasn’t dedicated any time to it herself. Yet she keeps the gift that Shallan gives her. She understands how important this is to Shallan, and she quite literally treasures the art that Shallan gives her, and keeps it with her precious research/notes (and, like, Symbolism with her keeping her sentimental gifts and logic fuelled research in the same place/with the same level of importance/value, except one is hidden, and one is displayed)

And, like, Shall literally assumes Jasnah had just thrown away the picture?? And instead she’s got it kept safe with her most treasured possessions? Like??? The TL;DR version of this point is that Jasnah is horrendous at displaying her emotions/showing people how she feels about them/what they mean to her, but she feels things, goddammit. And now so am I.

What of this Sadeas? she thought, flipping to a page in the notebook. It listed him as conniving and dangerous, but noted that both he and his wife were sharp of wit. A man of intelligence might listen to Shallan’s arguments and understand them.

Aladar was listed as another highprince that Jasnah respected. Powerful, known for his brilliant political maneuvers. He was also fond of games of chance. Perhaps he would risk an expedition to find Urithiru, if Shallan highlighted the potential riches to be found.

Hatham was listed as a man of delicate politics and careful planning. Another potential ally. Jasnah didn’t think much of Thanadal, Bethab, or Sebarial. The first she called oily, the second a dullard, and the third outrageously rude.

She studied them and their motivations for some time. 

Right. Now. Correct my autistic chull if I’m wrong, here, but I’m like 89% certain that ‘taking notes on the basic personalities/literally studying the people around you and making notes on the way they behave so you can actually understand them’ is not a typical allistic thing to do.

Shallan turned back toward him. That pride in his voice didn’t at all match what Jasnah had written of the man.

Jasnah can literally predict the oncoming apocalypse by the power of research, can she pin down some basic Facts about the people she’s observing around her? Nope. I wonder why.

“She wouldn’t let me be a mother to her, Dalinar,” Navani said, staring into the distance. “Do you know that? It was almost like . . . like once Jasnah climbed into adolescence, she no longer needed a mother. I would try to get close to her, and there was this coldness, like even being near me reminded her that she had once been a child. What happened to my little girl, so full of questions?”

Two things: one, this is probably (agonisingly) relating to whatever trauma Jasnah experienced as a child and I’ve got Painful Emotions about it. Secondly, Jasnah being very mature for her age/shucking Navani’s influence because it wasn’t what she thought she needed/wanted is, like, not exactly the most tactful/self-aware/socially conscious thing in the entire universe.

“You’re still human,” Shallan said, reaching across, putting her hand on Navani’s knee. “We can’t all be emotionless chunks of rock like Jasnah.”

Navani smiled. “She sometimes had the empathy of a corpse, didn’t she?

Oh look, it’s canon low!empathy Jasnah: from the words of her own mother no less.

(Also, small note here, as a low!empathy autistic myself: I really love the way Jasnah is written because it complements my own understanding of empathy which is…Fairly complicated. Jasnah isn’t just like none and done here. It’s not that she just doesn’t feel empathy so she doesn’t care? She isn’t characterised as this brutal, unfeeling, robotic ice queen. There are a lot of nuances and complexities here as to how she relates to those around her and I love it.

She obviously loves her family very deeply, and is driven to protect and help them (in a very practical, logical way I might add. Which is typically how I relate to care/love as well. You want a shoulder to cry on? I’m going to sit there awkwardly, pat you on the head, and hope you stop soon. There’s a practical solution to your current problem? Heaven and earth will be moved to achieve it.) She keeps Shallan’s drawing, even treasures it. And I think that she obviously….Feels her lack of feeling (if that makes sense)

See: the hospital scene with Shallan where she attempts to apologise. She’s…Uncomfortable with the emotional aspect of things, and she’s completely wrong about Shallan’s intentions, and actually her actions as well. There’s a block there with the empathy…But that’s obviously something that doesn’t exactly…Sit right with her? She’s quite self-depreciating in that scene, actually, and it’s clear (to me, anyway) that there’s the sense of her being aware that there’s something…Missing. Something that…Doesn’t quite line up. Something that makes her different and stops her relating to people perhaps in the way that she wants to.

Anyway: don’t equate lack of empathy with lack of love: a novel by Brandon Sanderson. God bless. Intentional or not, this is one of the most relatable low!empathy characters I’ve ever read and I’m here for it.

“Chana knows, I wondered sometimes how I raised that child without strangling her. By age six, she was pointing out my logical fallacies as I tried to get her to go to bed on time.

Shallan grinned. “I always just assumed she was born in her thirties.”

“Oh, she was. It just took thirty-some years for her body to catch up.” Navani smiled. “I won’t take this from you, but neither should I allow you to attempt a project so important on your own. I would be part. Figuring out the puzzles that captivated her . . . it will be like having her again. My little Jasnah, insufferable and wonderful.”

Again, a few things here: this concept of autistic children being far more mature/behaving like ‘little adults’ is actually pretty common. Also the puzzle-solving thing is just. Relatable.

Oathbringer

“Brightness?” Shallan said. “But … Shardblades aren’t fabrials. They’re spren, transformed by the bond.”

“As are fabrials, after a manner of speaking,” Jasnah said. “You do know how they’re made, don’t you?”

“Only vaguely,” Shallan said. This was how their reunion went? A lecture? Fitting.

Jasnah is believed dead for months on end, reunites with Shallan after who knows how long: immediately starts infodumping to her. Shallan:…….’Figured.’

People were always surprised to see emotion from Jasnah, but Dalinar considered that unfair. She did smile—she merely reserved the expression for when it was most genuine.

Jasnah back at it with the only bothering with emotions when they’re genuine. (Also Dalinar getting all indignant about people not understanding Jasnah/mischaracterising her is my favourite)

“They will try,” Jasnah said, “to define you by something you are not. Don’t let them. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity. I have always rejected that, and will continue to do so.”

Obviously she’s talking about her heresy here, but with a tiny smidge of tweaking it works well for her being autistic, too. She will always be a little bit different, always not fit, always be defined by being an outsider.

“In the face of such an atrocity, I would consider the sacrifice of one or more Heralds to be a small price.”

“Storms!” Kaladin said, standing up straight. “Have you no sympathy?”

“I have plenty, bridgeman. Fortunately, I temper it with logic. Perhaps you should consider acquiring some at a future date.”

Again on the feelings tempered by logic, thing. (Also Kaladin/Jasnah is interesting because they’re basically….polar opposites, and I enjoy the dynamic. But that’s for another day.)

“If you wish, Captain,” Jasnah snapped, “I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable.”

“I’d love that,” Kaladin responded. “In turn, I’ll get you some eels to cuddle. You’ll feel right at home.

Jasnah, curiously, smiled. 

Jasnah: approves of frank, honest comments. Even if they’re mildly insulting. As long as they’re genuine.

They didn’t talk tactics too specifically; that was a masculine art, and Dalinar would want his highprinces and generals to discuss the battlefields. Still, Shallan didn’t fail to notice the tactical terms Jasnah used now and then.

In things like this, Shallan had difficulty understanding the woman. In some ways, Jasnah seemed fiercely masculine. She studied whatever she pleased, and she talked tactics as easily as she talked poetry. She could be aggressive, even cold—Shallan had seen her straight-up execute thieves who had tried to rob her. Beyond that … well, it probably was best not to speculate on things with no meaning, but people did talk. Jasnah had turned down every suitor for her hand, including some very attractive and influential men. People wondered. Was she perhaps simply not interested?

All of this should have resulted in a person who was decidedly unfeminine. Yet Jasnah wore the finest makeup, and wore it well, with shadowed eyes and bright red lips. She kept her safehand covered, and preferred intricate and fetching styles of braids from her hairdresser. Her writings and her mind made her the very model of Vorin femininity.

Jasnah just not caring about social/cultural gender norms. Jasnah does what Jasnah wants. But also, gender roles, and tbh the entire concept of gender, is a social construct, it’s something a lot of autistic folks struggle with. (Also non-binary/agender!Jasnah just, as a fun little aside) 

 “Surely,” she said softly, “if Jasnah had known that I’d just confronted a deep insecurity of mine, she’d have shown some empathy. Right?”

“Jasnah?” Pattern asked. “I do not think you are paying attention, Shallan. She is not very empathetic.

A)- Jasnah probably didn’t notice and B)- low!empathy Jasnah again.

Jasnah rubbed her temples. “Storms. This is why I never take wards.

“Because they give you so much trouble.”

Because I’m bad at it. I have scientific evidence of that fact, and you are but the latest experiment.” Jasnah shooed her away, rubbing her temples.

‘I have scientific evidence of the fact I’m not good at mentoring/teaching/with people in general’ actual quote from Jasnah herself. Also, just, the language here? The mentoring/taking of wards is an intimate social relationship in Vorin culture, but the way Jasnah speaks of it she uses words like ‘scientific evidence’ and ‘experiment’ which says a lot about how she views relationships in general tbh. 

Also, I think her self-consciousness is something that’s interesting to note. This isn’t the first time she questions her teaching abilities/methods, in fact it’s one of her biggest and most obvious insecurities, it’s something that she’s very aware of. She knows she’s bad at this, and it bothers her. 

“Ivory, you think all humans are unstable.”

“Not you,” he said, lifting his chin. “You are like a spren. You think by facts. You change not on simple whims. You are as you are.

She gave him a flat stare.

“Mostly,” he added. “Mostly. But it is, Jasnah. Compared to other humans, you are practically a stone!

[…]

“Jasnah?” Ivory asked. “Am I … in error?”

I am not so much a stone as you think, Ivory. Sometimes I wish I were.”

And again with Jasnah being factual-based when it comes to her decisions ,and emotions based when it comes to her motivations. Jasnah Kholin feels things so deeply I will physically fight you over this matter. Also, given what we’ve seen, it definitely seems as though Ivory/Inkspren/Jasnah’s ideals are concerned with logic/reason/rightness, and that being a defining aspect of her/her order is interesting in the context of her being autistic. 

Renarin still lurked at the far side of the room, mumbling to himself. Or perhaps to his spren? She absently read his lips.

Since, as far as we know, Jasnah isn’t deaf/hoh, the lip reading is something she acquired for other purposes. Probably as part of her paranoia/wish to protect her family, but it’d also probably help with auditory processing disorder. Which is basically where your ears hear words fine, but your brain scrambles them up and fails to make sense of them. Also a lot of autistic folks (self included) tend to watch people’s mouths instead of their eyes (bc eye contact Sucks) and I’m not saying I can lip-read, but if I could it’d definitely make life easier.

But when, before this, had she last heard him laugh?

“Maybe,” Navani said, “we should encourage him to take a break and go out with the bridgemen for the evening.

I’d rather keep him here,” Jasnah said, flipping through her pages. “His powers need additional study.”

Navani would talk to Renarin anyway and encourage him to go out more with the men. There was no arguing with Jasnah, any more than there was arguing with a boulder. You just stepped to the side and went around.

Jasnah being completely and utterly oblivious to the hidden agenda/undercurrent to Navani’s thoughts which is ‘Renarin is comfortable with the men/is enjoying himself with them, maybe we should encourage that?’ and just responds to her mother’s words and nothing else. The boulder analogy makes me laugh (but also recalls what Ivory said about her being ‘stone’ which is, again, a kind of othering, a setting apart of the ‘normal’ humans, based on how she emotes/deals with things/processes fact.

I’m sorry, Mother. I’ve been dealing with a lot of lesser ardents today. My didactic side might have inflated.”

“You have a didactic side? Dear, you hate teaching.”

“Which explains my mood, I should think. I—”

A lot of autistic folk find it difficult to teach people, largely because, if they explain something in a certain way, away in which they understand, they have trouble rephrasing it/altering it to make other people understand it as well. Can definitely, definitely see Jasnah struggling with this.

Jasnah preferred to work alone, which was odd, considering how good she was at getting people to do what she wanted. 

This shocks me to my very core so it does.

Next to her, Jasnah stood with arms wrapped around herself, eyes red. Navani reached toward her, but Jasnah pulled away from the others and stalked off toward the palace proper.

Oh look, it’s touch!averse Jasnah. (she’s really not very touchy feely at all) AlsoJasnah not knowing how to deal with her emotions/grief and withdrawing from people around her. Also I’m calling the arms wrapped around herself as a pressure stim. Fight me.

Jasnah met his eyes, chewing her lip as she’d always done as a child.

Jasnah having anxious!stims (that she probably forced herself to unlearn)

“Forget I asked,” Dalinar said, sharing a look with Navani and Jasnah. Navani smiled fondly at what was probably a huge social misstep, but he suspected Jasnah agreed with him. She’d probably have seized the banks and used them to fund the war.

Jasnah ‘storm your social niceties, I have a war to win’ Kholin.

Suddenly they were young again. He was a trembling child, weeping on her shoulder for a father who didn’t seem to be able to feel love. Little Renarin, always so solemn. Always misunderstood, laughed at and condemned by people who said similar things about Jasnah behind her back.

Mm, who else was ‘solemn’ as a child? Maybe ‘correcting logical fallacies at age six’ ‘no longer needed a mother when she reached adolescence’ Jasnah. And, like, ‘people mock Renarin for his autistic traits…Jasnah is also mocked for having these exact same traits.’ It’s basically canon, people.

Jasnah fell to her knees, then pulled Renarin into an embrace. He broke down crying, like he had as a boy, burying his head in her shoulder.

Also, the fact that Renarin instinctively went to Jasnah for comfort, not Navani, who eagerly mothers literally everyone around her, or anyone else, he went to Jasnah ‘empathy of a corpse, made of literal stone’ Kholin for comfort and support tells me something. It tells me that these two had an understanding. That Jasnah understood Renarin, and that Renarin understood Jasnah, and that there perhaps a reason for that that has to do with their shared brain weirdness.

This is also the first time, as I recall, that Jasnah responds with physical affection. (And this doesn’t undermine what I said about her being touch!averse, she is, but a)- she initiates this contact and b)- it’s with someone she’s clearly comfortable with this level of contact) 

Jasnah glanced over her shoulder at the gathering army. “And perhaps … this is one time when a lecture isn’t advisable. With all my complaints about not wanting wards, you’d think I would be able to resist instructing people at inopportune times. Keep moving.”

I have said it before and I will say it again, Jasnah infodumping to an exhausted Shallan in the middle of a storming battlefield is the most autistic thing I have ever witnessed in my entire life.

These had always been right. Until today—until they had proclaimed that Jasnah Kholin’s love would fail.

And, to summarise it all neatly, Jasnah Kholin, empathy of a corpse, heart of a boulder, whose love in the end never failed her. *wipes tear* my beautiful autistic queen is good and full of love and feeling but just being really bad at showing it to people. We do not deserve her.

TL;DR: Jasnah is autistic af. It’s basically canon. Fight me.


 

Does it help to have the full verson? I will add it to the autism one as well. Adding it from my phone was hard so I could not before.

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I think Syl will be turned into a human and Kaladan will fall in love with her. She knows him and his different moods. Kaladan has trust issues and she is the only one he trusts right now. What I would like to happen is that Kaladan becomes a Herald and King of all of Roshar!!! I say that becomes to me it seems that his special gifts are different from other Radiants. Syl will be a great partner for him.

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1 hour ago, Kaladin's Girl said:

I think Syl will be turned into a human and Kaladan will fall in love with her. She knows him and his different moods. Kaladan has trust issues and she is the only one he trusts right now. What I would like to happen is that Kaladan becomes a Herald and King of all of Roshar!!! I say that becomes to me it seems that his special gifts are different from other Radiants. Syl will be a great partner for him.

This made me giggle.

On a more serious note, regardless of wether or not they get together, Jasnah’s disregard of social niceties will also mean she has NO PROBLEM tearing down the social structure if it becomes an impractical, illogical mess in the way of trying to fight a war. And she won’t care at all about wether someone is ligheyes or darkeyes, she’ll care about what they can do. And she won’t stand for petty corruption. Basically While I can see Kaladin having problems with her. They definitely won’t be the problems that he has with a TYPICAL Light-Eyes. And in fact he might be shocked by a lot of what she gets done.

Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part.

 

EDIT: Another thing was, how I amm currently rereading The Way Of Kings, and we get that line of how Kaladin tells Syl “how he’ll never be free of those brands.” And how so far that’s true because he continues to let his time as a Slave define him.

Then you have Jasnah who has this exchange with Dalinar

“They will try,” Jasnah said, “to define you by something you are not. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity.”

 

If you ask me that’s a speach that Kaladin could take some comfort in. And while I don’t think is brand will ever completely go away. I do think it COULD fade.

Edited by animalia
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2 hours ago, Kaladin's Girl said:

I think Syl will be turned into a human and Kaladan will fall in love with her. She knows him and his different moods. Kaladan has trust issues and she is the only one he trusts right now. What I would like to happen is that Kaladan becomes a Herald and King of all of Roshar!!! I say that becomes to me it seems that his special gifts are different from other Radiants. Syl will be a great partner for him.

Ok I don’t think this is likely at all, but it is technically possible...

We know from a WoB that the night watcher does have the power to change a beings species. This would of course break the bond between her and Kal. But, if he becomes a herald that bind might break anyways...

Ok that was fun to think about for a minute.

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9 hours ago, animalia said:

And she won’t stand for petty corruption. Basically While I can see Kaladin having problems with her.

Jasnah is a pragmatist. She will weigh the effort of fighting corruption against the gain. And she is certainly Machiavellian enough to understand that some corruption gives her more power, as she would have a pretense to fire people.

 

Kaladin believes in justice. There is potential for conflict.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

There is potential for conflict.

I'd call that an understatement. Pragmatic and ideological thinking are one of the most contrasting and tense juxtapositions in philosophy. Conflict is practically inevitable, but I don't see this as negative. Conflict is interesting.

Edited by SLNC
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This thread is really hilarious for me to read. I am married to a man almost 16 years younger than me. We have loved each other for more than 17 years, and there is nothing that indicates that we will feel differently for the rest of our lives. And when you think of the fact that women have a life expectancy that is longer than men, perhaps we will die about the same time.

Anyway. Life before death, Journey before destination. So, who knows? And who cares, as long as we love?

Nobody else can define or jugde the love between two people. I have no opinion when it comes to the jasnahdin combination. But I am sure, if Sanderson wanted to, he would be able to both make such a relation both logical, romantic, character developing and revealing, and surprising. I mean, it would not be the first time he surprised his readers. So, I don't think we can use what we have learned from the books until now to exclude the combination. 

 

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I see a lot of people talking about Jasnah as if she's already post-developing (don't know if that makes sense), which I think she's not.

I think logic is for Jasnah what the multiple personas are for Shallan, just a lot healthier. She had trouble as a child, we still don't know what it was but from what we know it was enough to break any normal person, let alone a child. So she starts relying in logic, this helps her move on and overcome what other people say about her (they do say people saw her as kind of a freak while she was ill, right?).

But as she grows alone, she stays that way. While reading I had the impression she wanted that to change but considered there were more important things to do and ignored it.

She still has space to grow and a lot of time (anything can happen in seven books) so I wouldn't say her being in a romantic relationship wouldn't help her with that. I still think it's unlikely though. I can't imagine what kind of person Jasnah would fall for.

Now, as for that person being Kaladin I really don't think we'll even get close.

Actually, I have the theory he was just the last one to arrive in the trio that are Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin. Adolin can talk with her as if it is nothing because they're cousins. Shallan is just similar to her in the correct way and even managed to be accepted as her ward. Again, nothing weird about them talking normally. And Kaladin, well, is Kaladin. He isn't afraid of talking back to just about anyone. I can just picture those three being seen as the weird trio that talks to the storming queen as if hanging out in a bar. It would be good for her too.

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7 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

She still has space to grow and a lot of time (anything can happen in seven books) so I wouldn't say her being in a romantic relationship wouldn't help her with that. I still think it's unlikely though. I can't imagine what kind of person Jasnah would fall for.

If she lacks anything, it is time. She is now queen and the head of the Elsecallers. During a desolation. With a child heir to care for. Lots of spare time.

In addition the idea of a political marriage will come up even more now.

7 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Actually, I have the theory he was just the last one to arrive in the trio that are Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin. Adolin can talk with her as if it is nothing because they're cousins. Shallan is just similar to her in the correct way and even managed to be accepted as her ward. Again, nothing weird about them talking normally.

That is an anomaly that cannot last. Shallan is supposed to head the Lightweavers. As such she cannot be subordinate to an Elsecaller, but as a ward she is supposed to be.

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17 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

I see a lot of people talking about Jasnah as if she's already post-developing (don't know if that makes sense), which I think she's not.

I think logic is for Jasnah what the multiple personas are for Shallan, just a lot healthier. She had trouble as a child, we still don't know what it was but from what we know it was enough to break any normal person, let alone a child. So she starts relying in logic, this helps her move on and overcome what other people say about her (they do say people saw her as kind of a freak while she was ill, right?).

But as she grows alone, she stays that way. While reading I had the impression she wanted that to change but considered there were more important things to do and ignored it.

She still has space to grow and a lot of time (anything can happen in seven books) so I wouldn't say her being in a romantic relationship wouldn't help her with that. I still think it's unlikely though. I can't imagine what kind of person Jasnah would fall for.

Now, as for that person being Kaladin I really don't think we'll even get close.

Actually, I have the theory he was just the last one to arrive in the trio that are Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin. Adolin can talk with her as if it is nothing because they're cousins. Shallan is just similar to her in the correct way and even managed to be accepted as her ward. Again, nothing weird about them talking normally. And Kaladin, well, is Kaladin. He isn't afraid of talking back to just about anyone. I can just picture those three being seen as the weird trio that talks to the storming queen as if hanging out in a bar. It would be good for her too.

Actually now that people have brought up The Jasnah -Szeth idea (either here of in a different thread) I kind of like it. I am not against this idea either per-say. But Jasnah-Szeth seems even MORE interesting the more I stop and think about it, where as Jasnah and Kaladin start to seem better as friends.

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14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If she lacks anything, it is time. She is now queen and the head of the Elsecallers. During a desolation. With a child heir to care for. Lots of spare time.

In addition the idea of a political marriage will come up even more now.

That's precisely the reason why she has to grow, she'll be forced to now that she's facing so many responsibilities she hadn't before. And I guess an arranged marriage would help know what her position is on the matter. For all her negatives towards marriage I still don't quite get if it's because she doesn't like the concept of marriage or if it's just that no one has been worthy so far.

 

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is an anomaly that cannot last. Shallan is supposed to head the Lightweavers. As such she cannot be subordinate to an Elsecaller, but as a ward she is supposed to be.

Maybe but she still isn't a full fledged scholar so it's likely going to continue at least for now, besides the main reason she's still her ward is to teach her to be a Radiant IIRC, even if Jasnah herself is still learning. And my point was about their relationship. There will be a time when the wardship is over but that is by no means reason to go back acting like strangers.

 

 

5 hours ago, animalia said:

Actually now that people have brought up The Jasnah -Szeth idea (either here of in a different thread) I kind of like it. I am not against this idea either per-say. But Jasnah-Szeth seems even MORE interesting the more I stop and think about it, where as Jasnah and Kaladin start to seem better as friends.

Wait, what? Jasnah and Szeth? That would be interesting to say the least. But they're certainly similar in some ways. I don't know about something romantic but now I'm definitely looking forward to their interactions.

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2 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Wait, what? Jasnah and Szeth? That would be interesting to say the least. But they're certainly similar in some ways. I don't know about something romantic but now I'm definitely looking forward to their interactions

Don't see how they could even be romantic. 

Szeth has not shown a slightest bit of need to socialize nor romanticize anybody in all the books. I think he is basically asexual (you can say the same for Jasnah but she dresses like a girl) like i don't think he really cares what other people think.

I do look forward how it goes tho. Szeth technically murdered Jasnah's father and i don't think she would see Szeth as somebody who is reliable to be around the most important person in all of Roshar (Dalinar) so the interaction will be plagued by bias of hatred and suspicion. 

I can't wait for the next book about people interacting with Szeth(i remember he basically murdered like half the nobility in the world) lol

Edited by goody153
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9 hours ago, goody153 said:

Don't see how they could even be romantic. 

Szeth has not shown a slightest bit of need to socialize nor romanticize anybody in all the books. I think he is basically asexual (you can say the same for Jasnah but she dresses like a girl) like i don't think he really cares what other people think.

I do look forward how it goes tho. Szeth technically murdered Jasnah's father and i don't think she would see Szeth as somebody who is reliable to be around the most important person in all of Roshar (Dalinar) so the interaction will be plagued by bias of hatred and suspicion. 

I can't wait for the next book about people interacting with Szeth(i remember he basically murdered like half the nobility in the world) lol

With luck they will found the idea of the social contract idea of law on Roshar. That's assuming no one already came up it.

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11 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

That's precisely the reason why she has to grow, she'll be forced to now that she's facing so many responsibilities she hadn't before.

Nobody has to grow. She has to fight and to command. Jasnah is a realist and a killer to the core. This is a desolation. She is expecting misery and death.

11 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Maybe but she still isn't a full fledged scholar so it's likely going to continue at least for now, besides the main reason she's still her ward is to teach her to be a Radiant IIRC,

Shallan is a teen. She does not lead a life that would allow for an extended adolescence like our college kids, but she is still young. She will not be emotional councillor to Jasnah one way or the other. Yet the wardship rather hinders a closer relationship between Jasnah and Shallan. It means they are not equals. And soon Shallan will have to drop out. House Kholin also needs an heir and Shallan is playing Jane Bond. That is not a time to become a scholar.

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10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Nobody has to grow. She has to fight and to command. Jasnah is a realist and a killer to the core. This is a desolation. She is expecting misery and death.

Wow. That's a rather pessimistic way of seeing things, in general. In a series where moving forward even after a life spent among suffernig and mistakes is a recurring theme, Jasnah doing that would give the idea that she just gave up, no hope for her. 

 

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Shallan is a teen. She does not lead a life that would allow for an extended adolescence like our college kids, but she is still young. She will not be emotional councillor to Jasnah one way or the other. Yet the wardship rather hinders a closer relationship between Jasnah and Shallan. It means they are not equals. And soon Shallan will have to drop out. House Kholin also needs an heir and Shallan is playing Jane Bond. That is not a time to become a scholar.

Of course they are not equals, we rarely are on equal ground with anyone except friends around our same age. The same way a person doesn't need to be on equal terms with their parents to trust them and vice versa, Shallan doesn't need to be on equal terms with Jasnah to do the same. I've given advice to my parents and grandparents on ocassion, even a teacher a time or two, the same way they give it to me, things like that are perfectly normal. And Shallan and Jasnah already have been in that situation, Shallan was worried about Jasnah and tried to help her when they were on the ship, and Jasnah tried to do the same for Shallan in Urithiru. At this point they're practically half-way through a normal adult-child friendship, I don't know what could ruin it. And being a scholar is probably the only one out of all the things she's doing right now that's basically a dream of her. Take that from her and things might get ugly.

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1 hour ago, Eluvianii said:

Of course they are not equals, we rarely are on equal ground with anyone except friends around our same age. The same way a person doesn't need to be on equal terms with their parents to trust them and vice versa, Shallan doesn't need to be on equal terms with Jasnah to do the same. I've given advice to my parents and grandparents on ocassion, even a teacher a time or two, the same way they give it to me, things like that are perfectly normal. And Shallan and Jasnah already have been in that situation, Shallan was worried about Jasnah and tried to help her when they were on the ship, and Jasnah tried to do the same for Shallan in Urithiru. At this point they're practically half-way through a normal adult-child friendship, I don't know what could ruin it. And being a scholar is probably the only one out of all the things she's doing right now that's basically a dream of her. Take that from her and things might get ugly.

I fully agree with this! They may never have a sister-sister like relationship but that doesn't mean they can't be close, support each other, and learn from one another. (Personally I have always seen them more like aunt-niece)

As to Jasnah, of course she will have to grow. That's not to say she will grow into a better person.... I believe she will, but we will have to RAFO:D

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I ship it! 

 

Kaladin and Jasnah work well together IMO because they don't need to be romantic. They have so much to learn from each other!

Kaladin's most theorized arc is about his fourth ideal, and many readers believe it has to do with learning to acknowledge that he can't save everyone, and sometimes sacrifices need be made. Jasnah is the PERFECT teacher for that. With his caring heart, Kaladin would be able to temper whatever lesson Jasnah teaches him with empathy, creating a balance that would let him speak that fourth ideal. 

On the other hand, Jasnah needs to learn leadership. Jasnah is not good with people. She admits as much to Shallan when explaining why she really doesn't take on wards or apprentices.  Oh, I have no doubts that our Alethi queen is amazing at politics and ruling, but she will need more than that in the coming times, and our bridgeboy, being the complete opposite, is the man to teach her. To date, we've seen Kaladin: raise slaves to the point where they were even respected/envied by soldiers, who later became an honor guard; guard and guide a group of what amounts to demons in-world to safety; and join and become high ranking member of the Wall Guard and convince them to help lead an assault to save Elhokar's son. Heck, Bridge Four might be the most progressive group in the world to date! They've got royalty from the horneater peaks as their chef, the son of the most powerful man in the world as a member, a Listener, and females training to be Radiants! Not to mention that Bridge Four has the most Radiants on the "good side" to date. 

Besides, Kaladin would be a good person to help show Jasnah's caring side. 

When it comes to respect, I'm pretty sure Jasnah would be near the top of the list for Kaladin (assuming they get to talk more). She's one of the most brilliant minds in the world, niece to his new boss/leader, and a Radiant. And Jasnah could feel the same for Kaladin. He's smart, educated, dedicated to his job and his people, snarky enough to hold his own, and a good leader. And given how Kaladin and his men have saved most of her living family at some point or another, she can't really dismiss him as lucky or irrelevant either. Heck, Elhokar's death might actually be a good starting point for them to bond.

 

The main things that could get in the way are: religion, age, and sexuality. 

For religion, it seems like Kaladin is pretty agnostic in the books (his mom is superstitious, and he practiced Vorinism, but he doesn't seem to be a hardcore believer). So I don't think that would be a problem.

Age could be a problem, but that would be more on their side than ours. Do they care? If not, go for it.

Sexuality is the biggest roadblock since we don't know what Jasnah thinks of anything related to this topic. But that's why I like Kaladin and Jasnah forming a relationship - IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ROMANTIC. I honestly think them forming a relationship - be it as peers, friends, or lovers - would be so beneficial for them that actual romance isn't necessary. 

 

Lastly, if Kaladin and Jasnah do get together and end up married, I'd find that kinda hilarious. On Jasnah's end, she married a darkeyed man who was enslaved by her most persistent - and annoying - suitor. For Kaladin, he spent his childhood informally engaged to a lighteyed noble, only to end up married to a different light eyed noble (who happens to be a queen). And then the Way of Kings as a title would be so obvious in retrospect! It might not be irony, but it'd sure be more than coincidence.

Edited by Use the Falchion
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