[OB] Kaladin and Jasnah as a couple

[Use the Falchion]

Spoiler

On 12/29/2018 at 3:46 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I think Syl is as close as Kal will come to a romance in the books.

 

As for Jasnah, you guys are shipping her with the wrong K. She will clearly end up in a long term on-again-off-again booty call with Kelsier, who will be totally smitten by her.

 

Spoiler

That...has a scary amount of sense...but I'll only allow it after Kaladin makes his giant Heroic Sacrifice (I mean, we all know he's gonna make one at some point), and a heartbroken Jasnah survives the events and travels the Cosmere. 

Kelsier and Jasnah would both be using each other to get more information, with Jasnah being up front about what she wants and Kelsier having some ulterior motive (that Jasnah knows about and is trying to thwart...but Kelsier ALSO knows this, and this factor is what makes it all so fun for him). 

Mistborn spoilers

Edited January 5, 2019 by Greywatch
Added a note so people know what spoilers are involved.

[Calderis]

Guys... This is Stormlight... Let's cut the Mistborn spoilers. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

If you quoted my post before I added the spoiler tab please edit it. Don’t want to Ruin anything.

[IGetLIFTed]

No. just no.

There wasn't really any chemistry between them at all, and that age gap. Not to mention Jasnah is probably asexual and aromantic. They also haven't thought of each other at all, which you wouldn't expect from a potential match. For example, you see Dalinar and Navani thinking of each other, Shallan and Kaladin, Shallan thinking about Adolin, etc.

Edited February 1, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[Sedside]

18 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

No. just no.

There wasn't really any chemistry between them at all, and that age gap. Not to mention Jasnah is probably asexual and aromantic. They also haven't thought of each other at all, which you wouldn't expect from a potential match. For example, you see Dalinar and Navani thinking of each other, Shallan and Kaladin, Shallan thinking about Adolin, etc.

I think there was slight chemistry. And that they were not thinking about each other - well, they have barely spoken. Shallan didn't think about Kaladin before chasms, Kaladin didn't think about Shallan, only when he was considering her being a potential assassin (maybe an excuse, but w/e).

I don't think Jasnah is asexual. It's just about men being too stupid for her, it can be seen from her meeting with Amaram. It's kind of the same problem Adolin had with women, but inverted gender-wise. Men were too eager in order to have her attention, so she wasn't ever interested in any of them. Kaladin is capable of surprising her (I think he did already) in this regard. He can challenge her and he is smarter than most of the men. I'm pretty sure if they have enough time speaking to each other they can both benefit greatly from it and can actually develop a romantic relationship. And about age gap - Kaladin is mature, Jasnah is beautiful, what's the problem?

I see a lot of potential amazing stuff in Jasnadin. It complements the theory of Gavilar-Navani-Dalinar-Evi mirror, it brings a room for development for both characters as they complement each other greatly, it also fulfills some foreshadowing, like "the tower, the crown and the spear", and also a quote from OB which I have just discovered today:

Quote

"No," Elhokar said firmly. "This is a time to be realistic. A king must do whatever he can for the good of his people, and my judgment has proven... deficient. Anything I have 'accomplished' in life has been handed to me by my father or my uncle. You are here, Captain, to succeed when I fail. Remember that. Open the Oathgate, see that my wife and child are ushered through it to safety, and return with an army to reinforce this city."

Of course he is talking about the Oathgate, but it also can be foreshadowing. "You are here to succeed when I fail." + death rattle + Jezrien. Well, I would give 40% probability there will be Jasnadin and King Kaladin 

I also root for this kinda because Jasnah is so expressingly asexual. There is sooooo much time spent to stress the fact how much she isn't interested in men... And also, you know, rules just don't apply to Kaladin Stormblessed.

I actually would very much like this to happen. I think this relationship would be very interesting to read. It's kinda like replacing Shallan from WoK with Kaladin. Awwwwww.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Sedside

[Razrback16]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I think there was slight chemistry. And that they were not thinking about each other - well, they have barely spoken. Shallan didn't think about Kaladin before chasms, Kaladin didn't think about Shallan, only when he was considering her being a potential assassin (maybe an excuse, but w/e).

I don't think Jasnah is asexual. It's just about men being too stupid for her, it can be seen from her meeting with Amaram. It's kind of the same problem Adolin had with women, but inverted gender-wise. Men were too eager in order to have her attention, so she wasn't ever interested in any of them. Kaladin is capable of surprising her (I think he did already) in this regard. He can challenge her and he is smarter than most of the men. I'm pretty sure if they have enough time speaking to each other they can both benefit greatly from it and can actually develop a romantic relationship. And about age gap - Kaladin is mature, Jasnah is beautiful, what's the problem?

I see a lot of potential amazing stuff in Jasnadin. It complements the theory of Gavilar-Navani-Dalinar-Evi mirror, it brings a room for development for both characters as they complement each other greatly, it also fulfills some foreshadowing, like "the tower, the crown and the spear", and also a quote from OB which I have just discovered today:

Ya, agreed on the chemistry given the limited interaction - to me I thought it was fairly clear during the meeting that the chemistry was there, underyling the subject matter being discussed by the two of them. I think right now Jasnah and Kaladin have a fundamental disagreement about how to proceed due to some ideological differences, making them probably have a slight dislike for each other right now on the surface, but also a mutual respect (they are probably both glad they are on the same side, Jasnah especially after Kaladin & his men brought Gavinor back given how clear it's been made that her family (and protecting them) is the most important thing in her life).

They've had so little interaction so far; that's what's going to be very interesting moving forward is how they behave towards each other. Jasnah smiling at Kaladin during their little argument stood out to me as a good sign since she rarely smiles as-is. But Kaladin probably has an opinion of her that the term "ice queen" could probably convey accurately at this point in the story. I think Kaladin's opinion of Jasnah will change going into book 4 as she'll no doubt do some things that will surprise him in a positive way as with her being Queen now, they are likely going to spend a lot of time together in close-quarters moving forward.

I'm also hoping Jasnah can help Kaladin with some of his issues where he cares so much to the point of it being a character fault - it actually causes him problems on a day to day basis and he really needs to learn how to accept that you can't save everybody, and nor is it your responsibility to save everybody all the time. He desperately needs some logic injected into his emotionally driven faults.

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I also root for this kinda because Jasnah is so expressingly asexual. There is sooooo much time spent to stress the fact how much she isn't interested in men... And also, you know, rules just don't apply to Kaladin Stormblessed.

I actually would very much like this to happen. I think this relationship would be very interesting to read.

Absolutely!

+1 to your post.

[Pathfinder]

6 hours ago, Razrback16 said:

They've had so little interaction so far; that's what's going to be very interesting moving forward is how they behave towards each other. Jasnah smiling at Kaladin during their little argument stood out to me as a good sign since she rarely smiles as-is. But Kaladin probably has an opinion of her that the term "ice queen" could probably convey accurately at this point in the story. I think Kaladin's opinion of Jasnah will change going into book 4 as she'll no doubt do some things that will surprise him in a positive way as with her being Queen now, they are likely going to spend a lot of time together in close-quarters moving forward.

So I haven't responded up until now because I think I adequately covered all my thoughts on the matter, so felt there was no reason to continue. You both are obviously entitled to state your thoughts and I wish you luck with them. I did have one thing to add however. Regarding this much to do about Jasnah smiling rarely. Jasnah did actually smile at another man after a heated back and forth. His name is Amaram. It was when he kept pursuing her to talk and she kept avoiding him. Then he confronted her in person. She told him to leave. He again persisted. She retaliated in kind. He began to summon his shardblade. She summoned stormlight ready to turn him to smoke and smiled. I do not think anyone can see that scene, and think that she has deep feelings for him and found him attractive by feeling challenged. So I feel a little too much is being attributed to her smiling. But that's just my own thoughts on the matter. 

[Razrback16]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I haven't responded up until now because I think I adequately covered all my thoughts on the matter, so felt there was no reason to continue. You both are obviously entitled to state your thoughts and I wish you luck with them. I did have one thing to add however. Regarding this much to do about Jasnah smiling rarely. Jasnah did actually smile at another man after a heated back and forth. His name is Amaram. It was when he kept pursuing her to talk and she kept avoiding him. Then he confronted her in person. She told him to leave. He again persisted. She retaliated in kind. He began to summon his shardblade. She summoned stormlight ready to turn him to smoke and smiled. I do not think anyone can see that scene, and think that she has deep feelings for him and found him attractive by feeling challenged. So I feel a little too much is being attributed to her smiling. But that's just my own thoughts on the matter. 

Always good to read other people's opinions on the subjects, thanks for sharing your views. Topics like this are obviously a bunch of us just throwing observations and opinions out to speculate while none of us know what direction the author is actually going to go with it.

I'm glad you shared that point on Amaram. I will have to go back and check it out just to run that scene through my mind again out of curiosity as I've only read it once.

----------

Edit - just tacking on to this post as I went back and re-read that section you referenced. I'm glad you brought that one up, too, that's such an enjoyable exchange to read. I can't wait to find out what Jasnah's history actually was with Amaram. I mean she just absolutely hates the dude despite him being cordial toward her initially in that situation and she notes further that it was her father who wanted them to be close (not her) and refused to be alone with him. Definitely interesting.

It's quite a different flow and feeling, though, compared to the exchange between her and Kaladin, at least to me. Jasnah doesn't have a history with Kaladin beyond that Radiant meeting that we know of - she had asked Shallan "what she thought of the Windrunner" at an earlier point in OB, but not much conversation developed beyond that to indicate 'why' she asked. (maybe because she worries about the safety of her family as a primary concern I suspect).

I definitely felt the meanings of those two situations were different based on a few things - circumstances, relationship histories, emotions, etc... I mean in the one situation she was basically ready to kill the guy when smiling (hah, sort of a "make my day" type of smile), only after Amaram was in the process of summoning his shardblade to apparently attack her with. In the other she's having a disagreement about war strategy with a man who had already saved Dalinar's life and Adolin's (multiple times) (these are men, especially Dalinar, who are incredibly dear to Jasnah - Kaladin is basically the opposite of Amaram, an "anti-Amaram" in essence and Jasnah knows that - where Amaram is counterfeit and deceitful in the way he attains his power and reputation, Kaladin is generally honest, and humble, while repeatedly putting his life on the line to help other people without an agenda for personal gain), and it's already been made clear throughout the series that protecting her family is the most important thing to Jasnah. She smiles at Kaladin after she'd insulted him and he insulted her back. It's noted about 15-20 pages before the Kaladin / Jasnah exchange that Dalinar thinks to himself how he thought it was unfair that so many people were always surprised to see emotion from Jasnah and that he had noticed she only smiles at people when it's most genuine. Now that's not to say that when she smiles at Kaladin, she's thinking about how she wants to rip his clothes off and get him to bed, only that it's probably different from the circumstances in the exchange with Amaram for the reasons listed above.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I think at this point in the story, Jasnah & Kaladin are probably a little annoyed by each other. She likely finds his viewpoints on the parshmen to be shortsighted righteousness that would get them all killed, just as he likely looks at her as a narrow-minded, emotionless ice queen who "doesn't understand" what he does. I like this pairing for a number of reasons. Primarily I think they can build off each other in a really positive way that would be fun to read about as it wouldn't be easy - they would go through a number of personal trials and tribulations that I think would be fun to read through - they would likely conflict frequently, but I think reading about them resolving those conflicts, particularly if it turned romantic, would be really enjoyable.

But like I've said in other posts, I could be completely wrong in this and maybe they'll just hate each other's guts for the next 7 books, hah.

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Razrback16

[Iyatil]

Hi all -- I deleted this post because I realized I included a spoiler for another series. I hope no one clicked on my spoiler tag who hasn't read that series -- new to this forum!

Edited February 3, 2019 by Iyatil

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, Razrback16 said:

Always good to read other people's opinions on the subjects, thanks for sharing your views. Topics like this are obviously a bunch of us just throwing observations and opinions out to speculate while none of us know what direction the author is actually going to go with it.

I'm glad you shared that point on Amaram. I will have to go back and check it out just to run that scene through my mind again out of curiosity as I've only read it once.

----------

Edit - just tacking on to this post as I went back and re-read that section you referenced. I'm glad you brought that one up, too, that's such an enjoyable exchange to read. I can't wait to find out what Jasnah's history actually was with Amaram. I mean she just absolutely hates the dude despite him being cordial toward her initially in that situation and she notes further that it was her father who wanted them to be close (not her) and refused to be alone with him. Definitely interesting.

It's quite a different flow and feeling, though, compared to the exchange between her and Kaladin, at least to me. Jasnah doesn't have a history with Kaladin beyond that Radiant meeting that we know of - she had asked Shallan "what she thought of the Windrunner" at an earlier point in OB, but not much conversation developed beyond that to indicate 'why' she asked. (maybe because she worries about the safety of her family as a primary concern I suspect).

I definitely felt the meanings of those two situations were different based on a few things - circumstances, relationship histories, emotions, etc... I mean in the one situation she was basically ready to kill the guy when smiling (hah, sort of a "make my day" type of smile), only after Amaram was in the process of summoning his shardblade to apparently attack her with. In the other she's having a disagreement about war strategy with a man who had already saved Dalinar's life and Adolin's (multiple times) (these are men, especially Dalinar, who are incredibly dear to Jasnah - Kaladin is basically the opposite of Amaram, an "anti-Amaram" in essence and Jasnah knows that - where Amaram is counterfeit and deceitful in the way he attains his power and reputation, Kaladin is generally honest, and humble, while repeatedly putting his life on the line to help other people without an agenda for personal gain), and it's already been made clear throughout the series that protecting her family is the most important thing to Jasnah. She smiles at Kaladin after she'd insulted him and he insulted her back. It's noted about 15-20 pages before the Kaladin / Jasnah exchange that Dalinar thinks to himself how he thought it was unfair that so many people were always surprised to see emotion from Jasnah and that he had noticed she only smiles at people when it's most genuine. Now that's not to say that when she smiles at Kaladin, she's thinking about how she wants to rip his clothes off and get him to bed, only that it's probably different from the circumstances in the exchange with Amaram for the reasons listed above.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I think at this point in the story, Jasnah & Kaladin are probably a little annoyed by each other. She likely finds his viewpoints on the parshmen to be shortsighted righteousness that would get them all killed, just as he likely looks at her as a narrow-minded, emotionless ice queen who "doesn't understand" what he does. I like this pairing for a number of reasons. Primarily I think they can build off each other in a really positive way that would be fun to read about as it wouldn't be easy - they would go through a number of personal trials and tribulations that I think would be fun to read through - they would likely conflict frequently, but I think reading about them resolving those conflicts, particularly if it turned romantic, would be really enjoyable.

But like I've said in other posts, I could be completely wrong in this and maybe they'll just hate each other's guts for the next 7 books, hah.

 

So I already typed a lot of my response to a lot of your points in a prior post earlier in this thread. I do not want to digress you and others from expressing your opposing opinions by rehashing it. I totally respect your right and valid reasons for believing as you do. I try only to respond when I feel I have something new to bring to the table. Now having said that, if you would refer to page .........and just as I was going to reference it, I realized it was on another thread with a similar premise. So I will attempt to link it below:

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/67284-ob-kaladin-jasnah-the-case-for-political-marriage/?page=4

The TLDR version. First I do not believe Amaram approached Jasnah amicably at all. He continually harassed her as she had to steadily escalate her refusal and he still disregarded it. She was pushed to her actions and stood up for herself. Second, I view the interaction with Kaladin very differently. She was trying to act professionally and logically during a war council. Kaladin understandably upset from his experience was unfortunately not in the right mental and emotional state. Not saying he was wrong to feel the way he did. However if he comported himself in the professional manner as a captain in the military, he should have had alternative suggestions on how to seek common ground with the parshendi while taking into account the fused. One such idea off the top of my head is talking to Rlain about the function of bonding with a spren. Rlain would have told them (which they didn't know at the time), that the parshmen must open themselves up to the bond in order for it to happen. That piece of info would open up a counter Public Relations campaign to win the hearts and mind of the awakened parshmen. But where they stood at the time is a never ending returning enemy, that no matter how you get along with the parshmen, they can change into enemy fused at the drop of the hat. What was Kaladin's well reasoned reaction? "I don't know". What did he do when Jasnah tried to figure out a way to prevent the genocide of the fused and buy them time to find a way to deal with the fused? "Are you insane!". One thing I do not see people consider is Jasnah was considered insane when she was younger. She was locked in a dark room where she screamed herself hoarse and felt betrayed and hurt by the ones she loved. And she is supposed to take well when someone calls her nuts? So I see the interaction as a mentally and emotionally exhausted Kaladin lashing out at the closest person available, and an exasperated and frustrated jasnah trying to accomplish some sort of plans to be proactive during what is the literal apocalypse returned. Her smile was one of victory that she finally got some sort of agreement out of Kaladin so that something could be at least done moving towards progress. Based on my reading of Jasnah, Kaladin did not conduct himself in any way that would impress her, nor cause her to think of him in a favorable relationship light. Sorry I meant to keep this brief considering I was referencing a post where all these points were already made, but I got carried away. Nonetheless ships are very personal things, and I am not saying you are wrong and I am right. You see these things in their relationship and I wish you the best in it. I just interpret the character and the situation differently. I wish you luck with your theory!

[Razrback16]

@ Pathfinder

No worries - even though we don't agree on some points, I still enjoyed reading your point of view on all of it, so thanks for sharing. I liked your note about the parshmen and bonding their spren - never know maybe that will be something discussed later in the books by Kaladin and Co.. I definitely sympathized with Kaladin on his point of view with regard to the parshmen after the beginning of OB where he spends time with them. Felt bad for the way they'd been treated.

[Sedside]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I haven't responded up until now because I think I adequately covered all my thoughts on the matter, so felt there was no reason to continue. You both are obviously entitled to state your thoughts and I wish you luck with them. I did have one thing to add however. Regarding this much to do about Jasnah smiling rarely. Jasnah did actually smile at another man after a heated back and forth. His name is Amaram. It was when he kept pursuing her to talk and she kept avoiding him. Then he confronted her in person. She told him to leave. He again persisted. She retaliated in kind. He began to summon his shardblade. She summoned stormlight ready to turn him to smoke and smiled. I do not think anyone can see that scene, and think that she has deep feelings for him and found him attractive by feeling challenged. So I feel a little too much is being attributed to her smiling. But that's just my own thoughts on the matter. 

I actually don't pay much attention to the fact that she smiled in that conversation with Kaladin. I am rereading OB now and I'm just in the middle of it, and I've already noticed like 6 or 7 times Jasnah smiling, so it doesn't seem so rare to me as well, I agree with you.

I also agree, that this one single dialogue is not the point, after which we can say "oh those two are in love with each other". It's kinda the same as to say that after Dalinar's meeting shouting match Kaladin and Shallan fell in love with each other. No, they needed chasms for that. But this initial shouting match was the starting point, kind of like the first impression of one another. And the first impression can be that he is independent and has nuts to talk back at her. Of course he was rude. But it is suprising, because she is used to people always doing what she says or seeking her appreciation (Amaram). Kaladin showed that he doesn't care about her appreciation and is not going to blindly do as she commands. This is exactly the kind of "a way of sticking in people's heads" as Shallan calls it. It's a hook, a seed. It can grow or it can not.

[IGetLIFTed]

On 2/2/2019 at 1:54 PM, Razrback16 said:

Jasnah smiling at Kaladin during their little argument stood out to me as a good sign since she rarely smiles as-is.

I think that smile was more icy and poisonous than warm and friendly. Maybe an “I know I’m about to reveal a logical fallacy in your argument, which is something that I like doing because you’re a man and I think men are stupid” smile. Probably not a “ooh I like that you’re challenging me let’s have babies” smile. Just saying.

Edited February 3, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[Guest]

1 hour ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Maybe an “I know I’m about to reveal a logical fallacy in your argument, which is something that I like doing because you’re a man and I think men are stupid” smile.

I don't really think Jasnah is a misandrist.

[IGetLIFTed]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't really think Jasnah is a misandrist.

Maybe not originally, but I think something happened in her past to lower her opinions and expectations of most men.

[Pathfinder]

18 hours ago, Razrback16 said:

@ Pathfinder

No worries - even though we don't agree on some points, I still enjoyed reading your point of view on all of it, so thanks for sharing. I liked your note about the parshmen and bonding their spren - never know maybe that will be something discussed later in the books by Kaladin and Co.. I definitely sympathized with Kaladin on his point of view with regard to the parshmen after the beginning of OB where he spends time with them. Felt bad for the way they'd been treated.

i appreciate that. Yeah I sympathize with Kaladin. I think it would have been best for him to (in the best case scenario), have provided his information to a subordinate who would then attend the meeting in his stead while he got to meet with a military therapist to go over what he experienced to work through it in a healthy manner. Unfortunately it appears mental health is one of the areas of medicine not passed down from the heralds and sadly under treated. I feel had the knights radiant still been a thing, there would have been windrunner superiors who had gone through the same thing to offer the emotional and mental support he would need to help him through the 4th oath. 

17 hours ago, Sedside said:

I actually don't pay much attention to the fact that she smiled in that conversation with Kaladin. I am rereading OB now and I'm just in the middle of it, and I've already noticed like 6 or 7 times Jasnah smiling, so it doesn't seem so rare to me as well, I agree with you.

I also agree, that this one single dialogue is not the point, after which we can say "oh those two are in love with each other". It's kinda the same as to say that after Dalinar's meeting shouting match Kaladin and Shallan fell in love with each other. No, they needed chasms for that. But this initial shouting match was the starting point, kind of like the first impression of one another. And the first impression can be that he is independent and has nuts to talk back at her. Of course he was rude. But it is suprising, because she is used to people always doing what she says or seeking her appreciation (Amaram). Kaladin showed that he doesn't care about her appreciation and is not going to blindly do as she commands. This is exactly the kind of "a way of sticking in people's heads" as Shallan calls it. It's a hook, a seed. It can grow or it can not.

Yeah I disagree that Amaram has sought her appreciation. More he has a view of how a proper Vorin woman should act, and she tells him where he could stick it lol. I respect that you see it that way and I wish you luck with your theory. I do not see it that way, but I can see how you would. Either way I am sure Brandon will do a wonderful job of it, so I am not overly attached to my own interpretation that I would have a problem if they did end up together. 

2 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

I think that smile was more icy and poisonous than warm and friendly. Maybe an “I know I’m about to reveal a logical fallacy in your argument, which is something that I like doing because you’re a man and I think men are stupid” smile. Probably not a “ooh I like that you’re challenging me let’s have babies” smile. Just saying.

I agree I feel it was icy but in my opinion not because he is a man. I will explain further below

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I don't really think Jasnah is a misandrist.

 

54 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Maybe not originally, but I think something happened in her past to lower her opinions and expectations of most men.

I am in agreement with SLNC, we see Jasnah having great respect for Dalinar (a man), a wonderful friendship with her versitilian brethren (of which one is a man), and a fond respect for Taravangian (based on the side he shows the world, and also a man). I think she has an anger towards a type of men, as evidenced by the alley, but I do not think she lumps all men together. 

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think she has an anger towards a type of men, as evidenced by the alley, but I do not think she lumps all men together. 

Exactly, this.

[Gasper]

5 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

I think that smile was more icy and poisonous than warm and friendly. Maybe an “I know I’m about to reveal a logical fallacy in your argument, which is something that I like doing because you’re a man and I think men are stupid” smile. Probably not a “ooh I like that you’re challenging me let’s have babies” smile. Just saying.

This post made me crack up. I think Jasnah and Kaladin have potential, and only potential right now. If anything, Jasnah will marry for political reasons, possibly to reduce the fall out from a future decision. Who better to marry than a minor brightlord who has a good history with her family and is not a heretic or an atheist. That being said, if Kaladin follows Dalinars lead, learns to read, and starts challenging Jasnah more, I can totally see the smile going from a "You are a naive idiot" smile to a "You intrigue me, let's grab Chouta and bottle of blue wine and discuss your moral framework" smile.  

[Sedside]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Yeah I disagree that Amaram has sought her appreciation. More he has a view of how a proper Vorin woman should act, and she tells him where he could stick it lol. I respect that you see it that way and I wish you luck with your theory. I do not see it that way, but I can see how you would. Either way I am sure Brandon will do a wonderful job of it, so I am not overly attached to my own interpretation that I would have a problem if they did end up together. 

Storms, I'm bad at expressing my thoughts in English  I understand, that you have your own theory and opinion, and I also find this pairing somewhat unlikely, I actually noted already that my main argument for it is death rattle and some other hints in text. I just wanted to clarify what I mean with "Amaram seeking her appreciation". I wanted to say, that there was a big difference between her fight with Amaram and her fight with Kaladin. Amaram wants to get something from her, her help or even herself as his wife, he pushes her to do something for him that she doesn't want. Kaladin doesn't want anything from her, he shows that he doesn't care what she thinks about him and doesn't need her, he is fine on his own. So Amaram was angry at her because she didn't want to give him what he wants, this is selfish and childish. Kaladin's reactions were somewhat childish too, he definitely could be more polite, but their purpose was not to "make her do as he wants", but "not to do as she wants", so he was definitely in his right to argue.

40 minutes ago, Gasper said:

If anything, Jasnah will marry for political reasons, possibly to reduce the fall out from a future decision. Who better to marry than a minor brightlord who has a good history with her family and is not a heretic or an atheist. That being said, if Kaladin follows Dalinars lead, learns to read, and starts challenging Jasnah more, I can totally see the smile going from a "You are a naive idiot" smile to a "You intrigue me, let's grab Chouta and bottle of blue wine and discuss your moral framework" smile.

I don't think Jasnah will agree to marry for political reasons. In my opinion, she hates the idea of arranged marriages and that's why she is worried so much about Shallan x Adolin betrothal she organized and excuses herself so expressively. I also don't think Kaladin will marry for political reasons too. He appreciates his freedom too much

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Gasper said:

Who better to marry than a minor brightlord who has a good history with her family and is not a heretic or an atheist.

Somebody who has an army to offer or secures an alliance. And if the monarch of Alethkar wants to be seen as independent from house Kholin, not someone loyal to that house. Hence somebody from Thaylen or Jah Keved, if you insist on Vorin, as may be prudent.. Actually if you really want to go hardcore: Taravangian

[Winds Alight]

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 Actually if you really want to go hardcore: Taravangian

I'd love to see someone suggesting Jasnah she should marry Mr. T. Should be fun.

[Pathfinder]

12 hours ago, Gasper said:

This post made me crack up. I think Jasnah and Kaladin have potential, and only potential right now. If anything, Jasnah will marry for political reasons, possibly to reduce the fall out from a future decision. Who better to marry than a minor brightlord who has a good history with her family and is not a heretic or an atheist. That being said, if Kaladin follows Dalinars lead, learns to read, and starts challenging Jasnah more, I can totally see the smile going from a "You are a naive idiot" smile to a "You intrigue me, let's grab Chouta and bottle of blue wine and discuss your moral framework" smile.  

So I have brought this up elsewhere so I will try to be concise. I do not think that a political alliance of any sort is necessary to Jasnah's rulership. 

1. She does not need an heir. She has Gavinor. She will have no problem stepping back when it is his time to rule considering (as per WoB), part of the reason she left Alethkar during Elhokar's rulership, is to give him space and one less shadow to live under. She respected his right to rule, and gave him distance so he wouldn't feel compared to her. She loved him in her way.

2. Kaladin is agnostic (as per WoB) so would not be a champion of the Vorin religion to help bring the ardents to her rule.

3. Jasnah has shown her capability of bringing together disparate groups (ardents, stormwardens, and scholars) and have them work together towards a common goal (this was when they were researching the gemstone archive. Navani marvels at her capabilities to accomplish this)

4. The government (as per WoB) relies on a "might makes right". You are only a highprince if you get enough people to follow you as such, and this usually involves an army. Dalinar, Shallan and Adolin all feel the highprinces would only listen to Jasnah. Brandon has said (another WoB) that Jasnah would be called the Queen because that is what she will tell them to call her. Jasnah has trained to be a ruler her entire life. She has the skill, the intelligence, and the experience.

5. I get people have different views on Jasnah, but it tends to annoy me when people continually say Jasnah needs someone there to stop her from making a huge horrible decision. It makes her out to be a rabid dog that will just lash out and bite unless there is someone standing next to her with a rolled up news paper to smack her snout and say "no jasnah, bad girl bad girl, we don't do that!". She is a human being. She has compassion. She has intelligence. She makes mistakes and tries to do better. Her whole schtick is about learning from the past, which the story of the king who didn't trust his family is foreshadowing of this. Against all logic, her love and trust of Renarin prevailed. She did that by herself. Jasnah listens to those she respects and those that bring forward well thought out reasonable conclusions. She is not a foaming at the mouth wardog. So for me the idea that she has to be in a relationship with someone politically or otherwise, just so she wont blow up the world I feel is very reductionist towards the character. 

12 hours ago, Sedside said:

Storms, I'm bad at expressing my thoughts in English  I understand, that you have your own theory and opinion, and I also find this pairing somewhat unlikely, I actually noted already that my main argument for it is death rattle and some other hints in text. I just wanted to clarify what I mean with "Amaram seeking her appreciation". I wanted to say, that there was a big difference between her fight with Amaram and her fight with Kaladin. Amaram wants to get something from her, her help or even herself as his wife, he pushes her to do something for him that she doesn't want. Kaladin doesn't want anything from her, he shows that he doesn't care what she thinks about him and doesn't need her, he is fine on his own. So Amaram was angry at her because she didn't want to give him what he wants, this is selfish and childish. Kaladin's reactions were somewhat childish too, he definitely could be more polite, but their purpose was not to "make her do as he wants", but "not to do as she wants", so he was definitely in his right to argue.

I don't think Jasnah will agree to marry for political reasons. In my opinion, she hates the idea of arranged marriages and that's why she is worried so much about Shallan x Adolin betrothal she organized and excuses herself so expressively. I also don't think Kaladin will marry for political reasons too. He appreciates his freedom too much

No problemo. Again, don't want you to feel I am saying you are wrong to see these things in a potential relationship between them. I just personally don't see it. Our views can totally exist side by side, and wait to RAFO 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Somebody who has an army to offer or secures an alliance. And if the monarch of Alethkar wants to be seen as independent from house Kholin, not someone loyal to that house. Hence somebody from Thaylen or Jah Keved, if you insist on Vorin, as may be prudent.. Actually if you really want to go hardcore: Taravangian

The countries are already allying under Dalinar as High King. Each kingdom rules their own people, but when it comes to the world war, they defer to Dalinar. That was how Elhokar built it when he paid fealty to Dalinar. So there is no need for Alethkar to ally or join with Thayla or Jah Keved. One, they already technically did under the alliance under Dalinar, and two the other countries if anything would feel threatened that Alethkar is trying to use the desolation to consolidate power and take over other countries. So again, I just do not see any need politically for Jasnah to marry anyone. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[joesleepsalot]

After reading all 10 pages of back and forth regarding Jasnadin, all I’m gonna say is that opposites attract and there’s no predictability in reality for people getting together. The fact that each character can remain single and bring fulfillment to the reader, OR hookup with another character and bring just as much fulfillment to the reader, signals that Brandon has done his job as an author very well. Regardless of if they get together, it’ll be a great 4th book I think.

My personal vote: Shallan is a mental case, Kaladin is better off without her. Jasnah needs some humility, as legit as she is I find her extremely annoying with the bossiness. Kaladin could use a bucket of water (metaphorically) to the face, Jasnah could provide it. Lol

[+Oltux72]

Quote

The countries are already allying under Dalinar as High King. Each kingdom rules their own people, but when it comes to the world war, they defer to Dalinar. That was how Elhokar built it when he paid fealty to Dalinar. So there is no need for Alethkar to ally or join with Thayla or Jah Keved.

 

 

And they keep listening to Dalinar because they are convinced of his wisdom? The wisom of a man who has just lost a kingdom? Who cannot even keep his own armies loyal to himself? Who has been so undiplomatic that he has been declared a heretic?

Quote

One, they already technically did under the alliance under Dalinar, and two the other countries if anything would feel threatened that Alethkar is trying to use the desolation to consolidate power and take over other countries. So again, I just do not see any need politically for Jasnah to marry anyone. 

Alethkar, an occupied country, taking over the world?
Well, if that were so, that is one more reason for them to jump ship and increases the need to secure the alliance.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Oltux72
copy and paste mistake

[Pathfinder]

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 

 

And they keep listening to Dalinar because they are convinced of his wisdom? The wisom of a man who has just lost a kingdom? Who cannot even keep his own armies loyal to himself? Who has been so undiplomatic that he has been declared a heretic?

Alethkar, an occupied country, taking over the world?
Well, if that were so, that is one more reason for them to jump ship and increases the need to secure the alliance.

Well yes. That was the ending of Oathbringer. Dalinar brought the alliance back together after the battle of Thayla. So yes.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. Because the other nations would prefer an equal alliance which is what Dalinar worked the whole book to bring about, Jasnah will seek to marry another nation in order to force them under Alethi rule and conquor the rest? Everything we have read in Oathbringer reads counter to this.

Again we reach the point of talking past each other. I guess all we can do at this point is RAFO. Personally I feel the subsequent books will support and validate what I have written. I do not see a point in continuing discussion with you.